other considerations for a marine tank

[Fishguy2727]

I have been doing a TON of reading and talking to different people about marine tanks lately. Although I don't have decades of experience, I have been catching up with all the recent develops in the hobby. Basically, saltwater tanks are as hard and expensive as you make them. I have seen nice setups that have an entire room devoted to the fortune's worth of equipment keeping everything in a very delicate balance. But there are ways to keep it simple, and it should be done as simply as possible. The KISS method applies here as it does in many other aspects of life (KISS as in keep it simple, stupid).

With the latest technologies and a better understading of the biology involved, saltwater tanks can work for almost any hobbyist. There are tons of sytstems out there are there are fanatics about all of them (usually because that's what they started on and it 'worked' for them). From my research I like the natural system best, very natural. That means live rock, current, and livestock. Talking with the best reef LFS in the area helped me come to this comclusion. The live rock serves to function as biological filtration (including nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria), and for mechanical you can use filter feeders like feather dusters. Few books even mention UGF filters anymore, or at lest not more than to point out their flaws. As with fw, UGF in sw can become a nitrate factory. Although UGF will not gaurantee failure, but there are much better methods to use in sw. Protein skimmers seem to be this big scary thing, but really they are a beneficial filter in almost any tank. This includes everything from fish only to the most diverse reef setups.

In order to avoid a lot of problems that people seem to encounter along the way, I feel the following should be done in the process of getting into sw. READ. And then read some more. Do not go by some random people online, you can use them, but only as one source of info. Start with basic beginner/intro books, then step up to more advanced ones that are based on your top interests. Get around to all the LFSs in the area that sell sw and take the time to talk with them. See what fish are actually out there and in your price range. One of the worst things to do is look through an atlas/fish profile type book and list all the pretty ones, only to find out half aren't ever actually available, half of what is left is far too outside of your price range to even consider, and one out of the ones left will eat all the others. See what you like that is actually in shops and in your price range. Then look into systems for those fish. There is no best setup that you can setup and then go out and buy whatever fish you like. For some fish a simple live rock and powerhead setup will work, for others live rock, wet-dry (preferably the Bio-Wheel sump because this means no bioball cleaning) with protein skimmer will work best. Keep planning your setup, talk to the people in your LFSs about it and keep tweaking it. That is what I have done. While saving up for one I keep reading, making slight changes (and some drastic ones) to the plan, and keep making sure it is going to allow my fish and inverts to thrive. READ.

[Fish Whisperer]

Few books even mention UGF filters anymore, or at lest not more than to point out their flaws. As with fw, UGF in sw can become a nitrate factory. Although UGF will not gaurantee failure, but there are much better methods to use in sw.
I knew this would happen.

I assume that I am the "random guy" so I feel the need to respond.

As I clearly stated in my post, UG's are considered archaic. I also stated that they were the cornerstone of the hobby for years and are just as good for the beginner as ever.
Yes there are certainly much better methods to use, but not any simpler or cheaper- and that was, after all, the purpose of the thread.
Although it is true that UG's can lead to long-term problems, It takes years with proper maintenence. In fact, your beloved wet-dry (trickle) filters will lead to the same exact problems; Hence wet-dry filters are now themselves archaic in terms of reefkeeping. Which is where the advent of the protein skimmer came from. I am certainly not against trickles, skimmers, UG's or sandbeds. I've used them all. But they all have place in the hobby in their own right.
I certainly agree that one should read as much as possible in the hobby (as I also mentioned in my other post). But at some point you've got to get in there and get wet; literally.
Again- the whole purpose was to keep it SIMPLE and CHEAP.

[Fishguy2727]

I don't like bioball wet/dry filters at all. The only ones I like are the Bio-Wheel ones that will not cause the longterm problems as the others.

I do not think UGFs are good for beginners especially since they will cause problems. Why use something that IF you are successful with it you are still effectively guaranteed to end up with problems with when there are other options that are just as cheap.

So what if it was the cornerstone for the hobby before other developments occurred, that is no reason to use them. If they work for you and you like them that is fine, but there are better options now. I think of UGFs like heat rocks for reptiles, outdated and not even close to the best option, simply a holdover by those who still use them because it was the staple when they started in the hobby.

Now that I think of it I have only seen one sw tank with UGF, and that was a very different setup. It was plumbed from below the substrate through the bottom of the tank, so the intake was a system of PVC pipes and the output was a simple open-ended tube. This setup was made specifically to be viewed from all sides so there was no tubes on any sides. It just is not the norm or ideal anymore.

[Fish Whisperer]

Do you even own a marine tank?

[cocoa_pleco]

i had a 10g for 2 years in 02-04.

[Chrona]

I don't like bioball wet/dry filters at all. The only ones I like are the Bio-Wheel ones that will not cause the longterm problems as the others.

I do not think UGFs are good for beginners especially since they will cause problems. Why use something that IF you are successful with it you are still effectively guaranteed to end up with problems with when there are other options that are just as cheap.

So what if it was the cornerstone for the hobby before other developments occurred, that is no reason to use them. If they work for you and you like them that is fine, but there are better options now. I think of UGFs like heat rocks for reptiles, outdated and not even close to the best option, simply a holdover by those who still use them because it was the staple when they started in the hobby.


It doesn't matter if it's outdated or if it's not the best option. The whole point was to have a cheap and simple setup we can have to get our feet wet in saltwater aquariums, since not everyone can afford said Tidepool filtration, protein skimmers, live sand, live rock, etc.

[Fishguy2727]

And I didn't say you needed to get those things. My point is that UGF is not the best way, it is not the cheapest or only cheap way, and there are other ways that will not cause the problems that UGF will.

I had a sw tank a long time ago. I am setting up the sw system at work, deciding exactly what tank I am going to do at home, and have been researching like crazy. None of the books I read or the people I talk to seem to favor UGF at all. It seems it has been left behind. One of the best things about a hobby like this is that it keeps changing. It keeps getting better and things that worked fine get replaced by things that work even better. There is a reason why most fw keepers are stepping away from UGFs and moving on to better setups, and the same reasons apply to sw. More maintenance than other setups, more delicate of a balance, and even when done right in all likelihood will cause problems before too long. I am not planning a tank that will do well for a few years, I am planning one that should do great for much longer than that.

[Fish Whisperer]

I'm not here to debate. But I do think you should probably check out my pics on the introduction forum. I do know a little about the hobby.
I'll say again, for the fourth time (please try to pay attention)-I agree 100% that UG's are not used anymore, and that they do lead to problems eventually...but...
There is not a CHEAPER way to start a marine tank than with a UG. If you, in your wealth of knowledge, spawned by years of experience, can explain a CHEAPER way to start a marine tank, then I'd never post on this forum again.

[Fishguy2727]

Something as simple as a HOB would do a better job without the maintenance required by the UGF. A Bio-Wheel would be fine. Live rock with just a powerhead would be fine if done right. Sand is a more natural substrate for sw tanks. Anything big enough to be used with UGF would catch lots of debris, and unless you vacuum under all the rockwork every week (and therefore stressing the inhabitants) you will end up with problems. The species whose niche is to clean the substrate are made to do it in small, smooth substrate, not chunky rough crushed coral. So the substrate material itself will cause problems in multiple ways. The price difference between UGF and a number of other methods is small enough so that if that makes the difference in being able afford a sw tank or not, maybe you shouldn't get a sw tank. With online retailers providing great prices for sw equipment no one should be stuck with an UGF. I see no reason to use something that will cause problems long term. Why plan for problems unless you like a challenge. Obviously it 'works', but there are better ways out there, especially for beginners. I am sure you are fine at keeping sw tanks, that was never brought up. I just differ in my opinion as to what is best for beginners.

[Fish Whisperer]

I think we should agree to disagree

[Drumachine09]

I think we should agree to disagree

Awwww, but it was just getting good! Jk, the less tension on the forums the better. I agree that you should agree to disagree.

[Glasstapper]

If it means anything, I like the idea of using an undergravel filter for your first tank. I would be very upset to go and spend tons of money on special and expensive equipment to only find out a few months later that I don't want to keep saltwater anymore. Fish Whisperer's setup is very easy and cheap and awesome for a beginner to set up their first tank just to see if they like it.

I believe we all know that when we like a setup we always want bigger. I think the same would go with saltwater. If I go and setup and a 33 gallon saltwater the cheapest and easiest way the first time, and I like it, then I have learned a little about keeping saltwater and will be ready to move on to my larger saltwater tank with different filter, if I want. That 33 gallon would not be a waste and could come in handy for any hobbyist.

Honestly, the undergravel only has drawbacks in the long run (like years). Certainly not many are actually going to keep their small first saltwater tank as their ONLY saltwater tank. It's great to just see if you like it. If you do, then great. Move on to bigger and better with your newfound knowledge (and you'll be able to say for yourself if they are good or not - it's best to try it for yourself and see how it works). If it turns out you don't like it, then it wasn't a complete waste of money on special equipment.

My mom has always said, "Listen to experienced people and even though you don't think it's right, at least they have tried it". It applies for a lot of aspects in life, if you think about it, even fishkeeping.

[Drumachine09]

My mom has always said, "Listen to experienced people and even though you don't think it's right, at least they have tried it". It applies for a lot of aspects in life, if you think about it, even fishkeeping.

Your mom sounds like a very smart womanthumbs2:

[Fishguy2727]

But the other ways to do it cheaply (such as with HOB) could be used for fw should you switch back. You don't need any fancy equipment. There are other options better than UGF that will still help you and won't be any more expensive than UGF (and may actually make the difference in whether you stay with sw or not since they are less work for you).

[Drumachine09]

But the other ways to do it cheaply (such as with HOB) could be used for fw should you switch back. You don't need any fancy equipment. There are other options better than UGF that will still help you and won't be any more expensive than UGF (and may actually make the difference in whether you stay with sw or not since they are less work for you).


What ever happened to agreeing to disagreeing?

[Fishguy2727]

I am just expressing my opinion on the subject. The last thing I want is for someone to try this method, hate it, and never get to enjoy sw. There are better ways. There is a reason why out of all the people I have talked to about sw tanks not one ever recommended UGF. We don't generally use the same phones, cars, or other stuff from 25 years ago, why should your sw tank be any different.

[Chrona]

We don't generally use the same phones, cars, or other stuff from 25 years ago, why should your sw tank be any different.

I'd have to disagree with the relevance of this phrase, since I could just as easily say that we do in fact use just as many, if not more things from 25 years ago, namely anything non-high tech related.

EDIT: nvm the rest lol. I'll let this storm cool down

[Fishguy2727]

I would highly recommend live rock in any sw tank. It helps simulate a more complete system in a closed tank. This includes nitrifying bacteria and denitrifying bacteria (turns nitrate into nitrogen gas that then evaporates from the tank). It also introduces many other organisms that will help in the tank. Sw tanks can be done without live rock, but in general they work out much better with live rock. And don't skimp out on it, get the good stuff. It may take a little longer to save up for it but it will be worth it. In fw we can't simulate a complete system as well as we can in sw. This is an ability that shoudl be taken advantage of in sw tanks. If you want to technically have a saltwater tank and just barely have a saltwater, then don't use live rock and use UGF, but if you want less work and more enjoyment out of it, do it right and use really good live rock and don't give yourself a problem with UGF.

[Chrona]

But then, we are back where we started, with the issue of cost. Live rock is at the very least, 2-3 bucks a pound. The good stuff can be significantly more, so you are looking at like 200++ dollars to properly stock a 55 gallon tank, just for the live rock. And then, you'd have to deal with adding calcium/kalkwasser/other supplements as part of your maintenance routine.

[cocoa_pleco]

I think we should agree to disagree



lol, i think so

[Fish Whisperer]

This is my last comment on the subject.

The cost of live rock alone, not to mention the lighting required to grow the organisms on it, defeats the purpose of the whole CHEAP and SIMPLE idea.
Give it a rest.

If the purpose of the original thread was to have everyone set up a full blown reef with all the bells and whistles then I would have written it as such.

I'm a huge proponent of skimmers, trickles, rock, and sand beds. I use them all. Here's a pic of my pump room.

[Chrona]

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=3904

[cocoa_pleco]

Wtf! lol
That goes to my pwn3d post

[Fishguy2727]

Live rock does not equal coral, you don't need high end lighting or calcium supplementation. And calcium is not a trace element. A good salt will replace lost trace elements. I guess I did not realize the thread was for what I would consider barely or technically saltwater. When I do things I try and do them right, not just barely. Adding live rock is not a full blown reef. I am saving up for live rock and lighting to do a saltwater tank. In the mean time I keep reading so when I do have it up I will be ready for it.

If someone is dead set on doing sw but can't save up to do it right in my opinion, than UGF and no live rock will get the job done. But in my opinion to really do it right you will provide the best you can for these rewarding animals, not just enough to keep them alive for an extended period of time.

My biggest point is that in all likelihood it will be more enjoyable and successful if you don't use UGF, but go with a more natural method.

[Fish Whisperer]

Lord....
I think you need to read some more.

Live rock most certainly does equate to coral.

Buy some high quality fiji or tonga rock and it's loaded with visible
softies and stony corals & the microscopic seed of many others yet to grow. But they sure won't grow with out some decent lighting.

[cocoa_pleco]

yep. I bought some fiji and it had all kind of neat goodies. clams and all

[GynMonkey1044]

I have been keeping fw for 10 plus years and saltwater for roughly 3 years and I work at a marine specialty store and the ugf is truly outdated you have the same benefits w/o the negatives if you use a bio wheel (in cases of small tanks) in a larger tank if it is FO or FOWLR i have found the trickle filter to be the best and if it is a reef the refugiums are far and away the best followed by a tank with lots of live rock and a large protein skimmer (berlin system) Trickles do eventually lead to higher nitrates but in a fish only they do not get dangerously high especially if proper water changes are done. UGF were in the marine hobby for years but this was also the time when very few could successfully keep marine fish (due to the ugf and other factors) the trickle filter really made marine tanks keepable to your average hobbist. I belive you would be hard pressed to find a book or article published in the last 5 years that reccomends the UGF

[Fish Whisperer]

Here we go again....I give up.

[cocoa_pleco]

this is getting tough............................................. .....

theres just too many god da* ways to do saltwater

some good, some bad

[Fishguy2727]

Most corals on live rock die during shipping (hence the curing process) and since you can and should use live rock in any sw tank, not just those that will have only reef safe fish in them, those corals will not live anyways with most fish. Live rock will help any tank, not just reef tanks. So no, with live rock you do not need calcium supplementation and reef lighting unless you are going for a reef tank anyways.

The way described will work, but that doesn't mean it will be the best or most enjoyable way (for fish or human). We use HOBs on fw, yet they would be too expensive to do on sw?