ammonia way too high

[luluespy]

Hi! New to hobby!

Have 75 gallon freshwater tank 1 oscar (4 inches), 1 mixed cichlid (4 inches) and 1 pleco (7 inches) - have had tank setup for 1 month. Ammonia level still at 4.0 - water changes up to 50% every other day to every 2 days - pH 7.6 (maintained since setup), nitrites 0, and nitrates 0. 2 - 60 gallon whisper bio filters, have not changed, but have rinsed.
2 airstones.

Tank does not seem to be cycling - use Wardley's chor-out with each water change, AP aquarium salt used. I have tested tap water for ammonia with readings of 0. I use liquid test kit not strips, fish still eating, but fins are looking beat up or frailed.

Used Ammo-lock 1 week ago - ammonia levels did not change. Ammonia levels also do not change even immediately after water change. What can I do - I don't want to loose my fish or make them suffer.

[lava]

What would happen if you did more then 50% water change? like 30%

[Wild Turkey]

You SHOULD be doing a lot more waterchanges...change the ammonia down to 1.0ppm .... honestly its pretty miraculous that nothing has died in 4ppm.
During a mini cycle i would never let A or NI get above 2.0.
Unfortunately water changes are whats slowing down the cycle, and more changes will slow it even more...but its needed in order to keep the fish from dying.
The best course of action is find access to some used media and add it to your filter.

Later on, in an established tank i dont recommend 80% water changes because they stress the fish and can kill them depending on the differences in water parameters between your tap water and the tank.

[SkinnyChicken]

If you haven't already, read Hobbs' sticky:

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=36492

Since you are obviously attempting a cycle with fish (though I'm not sure who told you that the fish you have were good candidates for a cycle) and the fact that your ammo levels are dangerously high you need to fast track to the following instructions (again, taken from Hobbs' cycling link).

Lower the pH below 7.0.
Change your water until the ammo level reads less than 1ppm.
Use chemicals to neutralize ammonia.
Reduce (or discontinue) feeding until your ammo level is under control.

Continue daily testing and the above treatment steps until the ammonia drops to zero.

Unfortunately, you still may lose all/some of your fish depending upon how much internal damage has already been done to them by prolonged (and high) levels of ammo.

I've cycled all my tanks with fish but have always used the same 5 Zebra Danios for the job. they are the hardiest fish I've found but even still, it takes a lot of time and work to attempt to cycle an aquarium with fish - especially one of your size - and that's just in water changes alone.

Good luck.

[luluespy]

how quickly should i decrease my ph level - i have read that this is also dangerous for the fish

i am sorry for the silly questions, but i am new to this and i don't want to hurt my fish anymore

[Algenco]

best not to mess with ph, unless absolutely necessary 7.6 isn't bad

[Wild Turkey]

best not to mess with ph, unless absolutely necessary 7.6 isn't bad

Agreed, I also never use chemicals or additives to reduce/neutralize ammonia to solve a problem such as this, ammo lock or similar does nothing for your tank that water changes wont do more effectively and accurately, without the risk of messing with your test readings (some of those products have been known to do that)

[SkinnyChicken]

You're both probably right although in the case of an ammo level of 4ppm, desperate times require desperate measures !! Though I'm not certain that the fish can be saved anyway given that the cycle is going to take a lot longer with a lot of water changes - and the damange may have already been done.

[Wild Turkey]

You're both probably right although in the case of an ammo level of 4ppm, desperate times require desperate measures !! Though I'm not certain that the fish can be saved anyway given that the cycle is going to take a lot longer with a lot of water changes - and the damange may have already been done.

a 75% water change would put him at/around 1ppm. Thats what i mean, more effective and accurate ;)

[Northernguy]

Get yourself a better water conditioner! Aqua-plus is great!
Get some Tetra Safe Start and add it to your tank after you do a large water change!
It will boost your cycle and save your fish!

[bushwhacker]

i'm not real sure of that ammo level anyway at 4.0 i'd think those fish would be dead now... but i do agree you need some massive water changes now

[Lady Hobbs]

What would happen if you did more then 50% water change? like 30%

Since when is 30% more than 50%. LOLOLOL

[Lady Hobbs]

Something has to be wrong with your tester. Fish can not live in 4 level ammonia. You need to keep up with water changes, daily with big fish, and stop adding all those chemicals. Add only dechlorinator and pick up a bacteria suppliment.......Stress Zyme or Tetra SafeStart. But you need to get that ammonia reading wayyyyy down and then add one of those products.

[terrapin24h]

don't change your ph. The shock of that plus the ammonia level will almost definitely kill your fish. The reason you were told to lower your ph is because ammonia is fish safe at ph levels under 7. However, as NW said if you get a good water treatment it will lock the ammonia and nitrite(which is soon going to spike as high as your ammonia) and keep them safe for your fish while your cycle catches up(my fav is prime, but there are others that work well too). Here's what i suggest:
--make sure you are measuring your ammonia right. Test your tap water to check; i think you should get a reading under 1
--50% water changes every 24 hours until ammonia is 1 or so.
--20%-30% water change as needed to keep ammonia and nitrite under 1.5
--NO MORE FILTER RINSING!!!! Leave your filter be; if you rinse it(even in tank water) you remove what little beneficial bacteria you may have
--There is this stuff out there called bio-spira(it may have a new name) that can help you cycle a tank with fish. If you can find some go for it(LFSs tend to have it)
--Cut back on your feeding. If you are feeding daily go to every other, and 1 feed a day.

About your stocking...I've always been under the impressions that oscars are one of those "single species tank" type of fish, and that anything put in with them gets killed eventually. Don't take me 100% on that, as i'm not really up on the "bully" species of fish. Others here may be able to comment(I think NW has oscars) but if they don't i strongly suggest you do some net research on those critters. Keep posting your levels so we can help you through it. gl

--chris

[Lady Hobbs]

Tetra SafeStart is bio-spira now. The regular refrigerator bio-spira is still sold for saltwater tanks. Tetra SafeStart come on the market a bit over a year ago to replace the bio-spira.

[Wild Turkey]

Since when is 30% more than 50%. LOLOLOL

I think he meant 30% more...i had to read that one twice as well:hmm3grin2orange:
Thats why i said to 80% in the reply

[Northernguy]

LOL Terrapin who is NW and what does the W stand for?:19:

[terrapin24h]

LOL Terrapin who is NW and what does the W stand for?:19:

sorry NW is another member. I meant you. It's late and im sick, cut me some slack :)

--chris

[luluespy]

Thanks everyone for all your comments and help!

50% water change last night. Here are my readings from just a minute ago:

pH 8.0 (seems to be rising - why?)
ammonia 4.0 to 8.0 (OMG) - does it spike this high during cycling
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

Fish all still alive, have not fed today, but they do seem hungry. Tested tap water again for ammonia with reading of 0.

Will continue with water changes - planning 75% tonight

Going to local tropical fish store tomorrow for some cycling bacteria conditioner and was going to ask if they had any bacteria infested media I could have to help my tank.

Anymore suggestions are greatly wanted!!

[SkinnyChicken]

I can't even imagine your fish still being alive whilst swimming around in 8ppm ammonia, let alone wanting to eat. Are you definitely sure you are testing for ammonia correctly?

I can't think how the number of fish you have would double the ammonia since yesterday - I'm almost certain that would be impossible. Ammonia just wouldn't go up that fast - even if there was no nitrifying bacteria to consume it.

You need to do a water change NOW if your test results are correct - otherwise everything will be floating by the time tonight comes !!

[Wild Turkey]

Used Ammo-lock 1 week ago - ammonia levels did not change. Ammonia levels also do not change even immediately after water change. What can I do - I don't want to loose my fish or make them suffer.

Thats why most likely.

His readings are way off from the ammo-lock. Stepping up the water changes should help that and give you normal readings eventually.

Honestly, the fact that the ammonia levels didnt change after a w/c should have been a dead giveaway. We are all guilty of skimming it seems.

[luluespy]

about to perform water change. Could my dechlorinator be a source of this problem - I am using Wardley's Chor-out, I mix prior to adding water to tank.

Will perform water tests immediately following change and post.

Thanks

[Wild Turkey]

about to perform water change. Could my dechlorinator be a source of this problem - I am using Wardley's Chor-out, I mix prior to adding water to tank.

Will perform water tests immediately following change and post.

Thanks

I highly doubt it, since ammo-lock has been known to do this. Does it contain ammonia neutralizers/removers or anything?

[luluespy]

OK 75% water change complete - dechlorinator added to fresh water prior to being added to tank (looked at dechl. bottle, does not state anything about ammonia)

I use a siphon tubing to remove tank water and vacuum gravel. I then have a clean 10 gallon bucket (had salt in orginally from local fish shop) to refill my tank. I tested water after dechlorinator from the bucket prior to being added to the tank and the ammonia level was 0. Water temp same as before water change.

Here are my water levels post water change:

pH 7.8
ammonia 2.0 to 4.0 (color green is lighter than before)
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

Anything else? Should I do another water change tomorrow?
I saw some feces vacuumed out, but not a lot. Fish have not been fed. Have not added ammo-lock but one time. Should I add some now? Got some "Cycle" brand chemical, should I add?

Thanks

[Wild Turkey]

OK 75% water change complete - dechlorinator added to fresh water prior to being added to tank (looked at dechl. bottle, does not state anything about ammonia)

I use a siphon tubing to remove tank water and vacuum gravel. I then have a clean 10 gallon bucket (had salt in orginally from local fish shop) to refill my tank. I tested water after dechlorinator from the bucket prior to being added to the tank and the ammonia level was 0. Water temp same as before water change.

Here are my water levels post water change:

pH 7.8
ammonia 2.0 to 4.0 (color green is lighter than before)
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

Anything else? Should I do another water change tomorrow?
I saw some feces vacuumed out, but not a lot. Fish have not been fed. Have not added ammo-lock but one time. Should I add some now? Got some "Cycle" brand chemical, should I add?

Thanks

Dont add either IMO. Both have been suspected in giving false readings.
Just keep up the water changes, and if you can get seeded media or tetra safe start or similar, do it.

[PostalPenguin]

Hmm Cycle worked for me when I was cycling. Ammonia levels went from 1ppm to 0.25 in 24 hours. Nitrites went from 0 to 0.25 in the same time. However, it seems I am in the minority of people who have had Cycle do anything.

If you do use Cycle shake the bottle vigorously for at least 30 seconds. You should see tiny white flocs of bacteria in the liquid, if you dont shake some more. I poured a capful into the filter and a capful into the water. The bottle says the shelf life of the stuff after opening is 6 months so there is no need to be conservative with it since you wont be cycling many more tanks before the stuff is "dead".

My fish were happy the whole time and never showed any signs of stress. A bacterial bloom occured the day after I added Cycle but cleared within 3 days. I cant comment on how long Cycle takes to cycle your tank as I had to take my fish back before it cycled.

[Wild Turkey]

Actually, i think i may have figured it out. Seems the new cycle is different, and may actually contain some bacteria. Its labeled "new and improved" :hmm3grin2orange:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18574/si3637765/cl1/hagen_cycle_biological_supplement__4oz?&query=cycle&queryType=0&offset=

However, i doubt you can "see" the bacteria ;) its microscopic, if anything it should look cloudy

[PostalPenguin]

Actually, i think i may have figured it out. Seems the new cycle is different, and may actually contain some bacteria. Its labeled "new and improved" :hmm3grin2orange:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18574/si3637765/cl1/hagen_cycle_biological_supplement__4oz?&query=cycle&queryType=0&offset=

However, i doubt you can "see" the bacteria ;) its microscopic, if anything it should look cloudy

My bottle of Cycle does say new and improved so maybe it really is improved. But you can see yellowish white clumps of bacteria floating in the bottle, its not cloudy. And by "bacteria"" of course I mean millions of them clumped together. When I first used it I only gave it a quick shake and saw nothing floating in the water. However, after I shook it hard for 30 seconds there were hundreds of little clumps floating in the water. When I added it to my tank the water rapidly turned cloudy as I assume the water action broke up the clumps. I would guess it would get cloudy if I shook it hard enough to evenly break up all the clumps though.

[Wild Turkey]

My bottle of Cycle does say new and improved so maybe it really is improved. But you can see yellowish white clumps of bacteria floating in the bottle, its not cloudy. And by "bacteria"" of course I mean millions of them clumped together. When I first used it I only gave it a quick shake and saw nothing floating in the water. However, after I shook it hard for 30 seconds there were hundreds of little clumps floating in the water. When I added it to my tank the water rapidly turned cloudy as I assume the water action broke up the clumps. I would guess it would get cloudy if I shook it hard enough to evenly break up all the clumps though.

Hmm. Its odd that your cycle is clumpy, no other bacteria culture product ive used is clumpy, and the old cycle wasnt either.

[Algenco]

most of the additives work by converting Ammonia to Ammonium, less harmful, but still not good allowing the fish to survive until the actual cycle is completed.
Although they don't have possible bacteria boosters high quality dechlor has the same effect.
Prime as an example can be used at 5x normal dosage to detoxify Ammonia and Nitrites

[terrapin24h]

I think we have safely established that your ammonia readings are -at least partially- false. Either your water conditioner or ammo lock (or both) are most likely the culprit. I say you either wait it out(and check ammonia level twice/day) or do 1 more water change and then wait it out. Also, start checking nitrite AND nitrate levels(once a day or every other) as well. If i do a water change and then check the ammonia level right after, I will get a reading. If i wait a bit(4 or so hours seems to do it) i no longer get a reading. On the bottle(prime) it actually warns you to wait a full 24 hrs. I have no doubt you have ammonia in your tank water, but i seriously doubt it is anywhere near 4ppm, let alone 8. Let's "take a breath" and see how things play out. *IF* you start seeing fish "gasping" for air at the surface of the water, hiding with clamped fins, or not eating, then we will have some evidence that your ammonia is really getting bad. But until then i think it's fairly safe to assume you are -for now- a victim of false positives. What's everybody else think?

--chris

[Taurus]

Agreed! Your ammonia test kit tests for total ammonia (NH3 + NH4). Both Ammo-Lock and Prime convert NH3 into NH4. NH4 is ammonium, and as Algenco said is less toxic to your fish, but can give false positive readings for live ammonia (NH3). If your fish are behaving normally, the high ammonia reading is a false positive. If your fish begin to gasp, move to the surface and gasp, then you have live ammonia (NH3) in your water. If your fish starting behaving this way, do a 50% + water change and treat the entire tank with Prime.

Doing a water change does not slow down a cycle. The beneficial bacteria will still grow in your filter and in the substrate.

I really don't like bacterial boosters because they produce varying results. I stay away from them.
:22:

[luluespy]

hi everyone.

Got some VERY used filter cartridges from my local tropical fish shop, put them yesterday, did not change water per their instructions. I tested the levels a few minutes ago(about 27 hrs after used filters added):

ammonia 2.0 (yeah it is going down!!!)
nitrites 0
nitrates 0

Do you think I should change the water tonight or wait until tomorrow?

Thanks

[bushwhacker]

change it now.. at least 50 % get that ammo down to 1.0 or lower and get ready for the nitrite spike its as bad as ammo