Use of food to cycle.

[escamosa]

Hi everyone,hope everyone had a nice day.
Yesterday i set up a new tank and decided to cycle without fish.
I searched high and low for ammonia but i can't seem to get it anywhere so i thought i would use some flake food and bloodworms to feed the tank as well as using an old filter from my other tank.
Does this sound good to you guy's?
I checked the ammonia level of the tank this arfternoon and the ammonia levels are at about .25.
Will i still have to feed the tank?
Would appreciate any advice.

[korith]

If you have a filter media from another tank that is currently running, that would really speed up the cycling process on your new tank.

If you have no old media, and still can't find ammonia, you could try putting in raw shrimp to cycle with.

[Mvjnz]

In another forum I'm a member of, the most common way to cycle a tank is to set it up and then just leave it for 4-5 weeks. Some people add a bit of food once a week or so.

But in reality a tank will cycled itself, due to plant material and usually some snails.

[NickFish]

With all due respect Mvjnz, what you are saying makes absolutely no sense, or at least as far as I can tell....

Where are you getting the snails from? They usually aren't living inside the tank when you buy it. Even if there were a dozen snails livnig inside your heater box that somehow got into the tank they wouldn't produce enough of anything to give an ammonia reading. And even if the poster did have plants, which he didn't mention anywhere, they will suck up any ammonia produced by themselves in a heartbeat, unless you did something terribly wrong and they all died. Even a silent cycle requires fish.


You can use flake food, add about 1/3 of what you think you will be feeding per day when the tank is fully stocked. Wait a day or two for it to start a decompose. Test it, and if you need more just keep adding it. Remember though, it takes a few days at least for the food to really start producing ammonia, so be patient in between testing.

[Lady Hobbs]

I would use a nylon stocking with raw shrimp or fish in it before using fish food. Why just dirty up the tank and waste fish food?

A tank must have a form of ammonia to cycle. Rooting food will cause ammonia but so will rotting fish/shrimp.

[mrs fishpatrick]

I cycled a tank using a prawn, by the time the prawn was completely decomposed the tank was cycled too.

[bushwhacker]

guess i'm just old and set in my ways but i have always did a fish in cycle.. as long as you closely monitor the tank and do your water changes as needed i dont feel that it stresses the fish or endangers them......
bushwhacker ducks and hides from the flamethrowers

[Mvjnz]

The snails would come from the plants, assuming you have live plants. And with live plants they regularly lose leaves and bits of them die off, which also helps the cycle.

You can argue with it if you want, but that method has been used by hundreds of people in a different forum, some of them very experienced in fish keeping, and that's the method they all recommend.

Of course you'd have to introduce fish slowly to give the filter time to adjust to increased bioload, which is something you don't have to do when cycling with ammonia, but that's the only difference.

When I set up my first tank, I left it for a week, with the filter running and live plants, and also a small amount of pond snails. After a week I had an ammonia reading.

Maybe you didn't notice that slimey said he set up the tank two days ago, and already has an ammonia reading? How would you explain that if you can't cycled without adding ammonia?

[Wild Turkey]

How would you explain that if you can't cycled without adding ammonia?

Ammonia in the tap water is one explanation.
Chloramines in the tap water is another.

Regardless, the method you are suggesting often does not work, and will never produce like results twice. Its an ancient way of doing things and 95% of the time doesnt cycle the tank, the fish do. Even when adding fish food to the tank, that method can take months easily.

[Alfcea]

Ammonia in the tap water is one explanation.
Chloramines in the tap water is another.

Regardless, the method you are suggesting often does not work, and will never produce like results twice. Its an ancient way of doing things and 95% of the time doesnt cycle the tank, the fish do. Even when adding fish food to the tank, that method can take months easily.

I agree with the first part of your post (namely, the source of ammonia in tap water). However, cycling a tank with fish food is a perfectly valid way of doing things. Bacteria are pretty much ubiquitous. I disagree with your claim that 95% of the time, this won't cycle the tank. Of course it will! Do you need to be patient? Sure. But that does not mean that the method wont work.

[Mvjnz]

It has worked for hundreds of people, and is the recommended method in another forum (why do I feel like I'm repeating myself?)

I do not have ammonia in my tap water, the ammonia in my tank was produced by plants and snails. Because ammonia was present, this would cycle the tank.

You can continue to claim it won't work, but I have read loads of posts where people do fishless cycles without adding ammonia, where they have ammonia and nitrite readings, and nitrate reading after about 4-5 weeks.

[Heliwyr]

Regardless, the method you are suggesting often does not work, and will never produce like results twice. Its an ancient way of doing things and 95% of the time doesnt cycle the tank, the fish do. Even when adding fish food to the tank, that method can take months easily.

Er. I just cycled my tank with food in about 3 weeks... Granted, I added food continually and seeded a little. Not just one big chunk of food. But I don't see why it wouldn't work if the rotting food is providing a continuous source of ammonia...

Unless you mean the very first post of Mvjnz that described leaving a tank to sit for a month (???? Some details seem missing in his description). I agree that without a regular source of ammonia or a lot of something rotting, that method would not cycle a tank.

(And now I'm meandering and replying to a bunch of people without quotes.)

I believe slimey has an ammonia reading because he added fish food. If he wishes to cycle with fish food, he will have to continue to add food so it will rot. I added a few large pinches of flakes/pellet every day to every other day. Once nitrites spiked, I cut that back to one large pinch per day. The problem with food-cycling is there's no way of knowing how much ammonia you add per feeding (it takes time for the food to rot and more can be added as it continues to rot). So you just have to hope you add enough to handle the expected bioload but not too much to stall the cycle.

[Wild Turkey]

Without naming names, some people need to read my post again.

95% of the time this method doesnt cycle the tank, the fish do.

Is exactly what i said, and i stand by it. Like i said its an older method and i would say more than 95% of people who chose it in the past didnt even test the water. "leave the tank for the 3-4 weeks and then add fish slowly" is what you recommended..and how its usually implemented...and in said case, i would say yes, usually after a few weeks the tank is not cycled, especially if you arent feeding the tank.

Ammonia cycles tanks, no one is debating that.

Read posts slowly.
Dont you guys know what they say about assuming?

Regardless, this method is by far the slowest and least predictable imo and you can find ammonia online if you cant find it locally.


MJ, you asked

"Maybe you didn't notice that slimey said he set up the tank two days ago, and already has an ammonia reading? How would you explain that if you can't cycled without adding ammonia?"

I answered your question. Your response of "I do not have ammonia in my tap water, the ammonia in my tank was produced by plants and snails. Because ammonia was present, this would cycle the tank." doesnt even pertain to my answer or your question.





Once again, just because people seem to be unable to read the entirety of a post, NO ONE IS SAYING IT WONT WORK, just saying it doesnt work well and is one of the slowest and least predictable cycling methods.

[Alfcea]

WT,

You said that some people need to read your post again. I will wear the hat. I did notice the phrase that stated "... fish do". I think I wasn't clear in my post, but I thought we were talking about fish-less cycling! How can fish cycle a tank if there are not any fish in it? In this case, it is the bacteria that are breaking down the proteins/aminoacids into ammonia... and the tank will cycle perfectly even if there are no fish in it.

No need to get upset. I never meant anything bad. Please accept my apologies if something I said was misunderstood. I just wasn't clear enough, I guess. Sorry.

[Wild Turkey]

WT,

You said that some people need to read your post again. I will wear the hat. I did notice the phrase that stated "... fish do". I think I wasn't clear in my post, but I thought we were talking about fish-less cycling! How can fish cycle a tank if there are not any fish in it? In this case, it is the bacteria that are breaking down the proteins/aminoacids into ammonia... and the tank will cycle perfectly even if there are no fish in it.

No need to get upset. I never meant anything bad. Please accept my apologies if something I said was misunderstood. I just wasn't clear enough, I guess. Sorry.

Dont apologize, u didnt do anything wrong buddy its fine.
By that i mean, people assume after dropping flake in the tank for 4 weeks that its cycled and add fish, thus the fish cycle the tank not their method.** This can even happen when the tank is actually cycled, as Mj said herself the bioload is relative to the amount of decaying matter so the chance of having a mini cycle is much higher than with the traditional fishless method.

**H/O im not saying anyone on the forum did this or any other forum, just saying..thats what people used to do and what the pet store suggests if anything usually.

Im not upset, just want to stress and clarify what i actually meant. ;)

[Mvjnz]

Unless you mean the very first post of Mvjnz that described leaving a tank to sit for a month (???? Some details seem missing in his description)

I'm a she, and yeah, I meant set it up with plants and everything and then leave the filter running with no water changes for a month. Obviously a tank with water only will not cycle.


Is exactly what i said, and i stand by it. Like i said its an older method and i would say more than 95% of people who chose it in the past didnt even test the water.

The people I know who have used this method test the water, and have readings of ammonia and nitrite.


MJ, you asked

"Maybe you didn't notice that slimey said he set up the tank two days ago, and already has an ammonia reading? How would you explain that if you can't cycled without adding ammonia?"

I answered your question. Your response of "I do not have ammonia in my tap water, the ammonia in my tank was produced by plants and snails. Because ammonia was present, this would cycle the tank." doesnt even pertain to my answer or your question.

You did provide an explanation of how slimey may have an ammonia reading, so I thought I would point out that I do not have ammonia in my tap water, and I had an ammonia reading despite adding no ammonia to my tank.

So there was something producing ammonia in my tank, as there probably is in slimey's tank, and also in any tank that is set up with live plants.


NO ONE IS SAYING IT WONT WORK, just saying it doesnt work well and is one of the slowest and least predictable cycling methods.

Actually, people were saying it wouldn't work and that it didn't make sense. It may be an old method, but it does work and is recommended in another forum. It would not be recommended by experienced fish keepers unless it had a high success rate.

I'm not recommending it over the adding ammonia method, all I'm saying it that the tank will cycle if set up and left for a month or so, but because the ammonia level would be much lower than if you were actually adding ammonia, you'd need to add fish slowly to let the filter adjust.

You can keep telling it doesn't work, but I know it does, and I know heaps of other people who use it and recommend it.

[Wild Turkey]

I believe the person you are referring to was suggesting that the tank would not cycle without plant matter or tank feeding to produce ammonia....and id agree.
I think you just assumed they were saying that the method wouldnt work with a bunch of variables you hadnt previously mentioned...like plants. However i am just speculating.

"You can keep telling it doesn't work, but I know it does, and I know heaps of other people who use it and recommend it."

Once again...this doesnt really make sense mj......you just quoted me saying "no one is saying it wont work."

[NickFish]

Ok mvjnz, lets pretend your way would work for a second....

It is still a moot point because the poster never said anywhere that he was putting in live plants. If your plants are doing well there should be little dead leaves in the first place, and the few that do die should be eaten up fairly quickly, or sucked into the filter to produce even less ammonia.

I find that every forum I go to has different ideals, ways of doing things that are significantly different than anywhere else, yet something that is accepted by the whole forum.

For example, monsterfishkeepers believes you can keep arros in 125g.
Aquascaping world believes you should spend no less than $1000 on your tanks, regardless of size. Plantedtank seems to believe the only filter availble is Eheim, and that anything that says ADA on it is 100x better than anything else. Its something that is only accepted by that one forum, and not the whole fishkeeping community. Is it possible that your forum is one of those in terms of cycling?