Frontosa!

[fraggle]

I went to the LFS the day before yesterday, and there, just been handed in were some fronts! He had 2 of them, a big male and I'm assuming a female, the guy was moving over seas, He said he did have 8 of them but he gave the 6 smaller ones to his neighbour to put in his kids tank he'd just bought them, as the neighbour didn't want "big fish" for the kids to look after (I would have thought if you'd seen the big ones you'd know that the small ones would get big)
He said he'd got them when his Uncle had died at the beginning of last year. He said his Uncle was "fish mad" and had wanted him to learn to like fish too. But they took up too much room.
He said that his Uncle had imported the male from Africa about 4 years ago. "cost him a fortune, can't believe you'd spend that money on stupid fish."
I asked him what sort they were, he said his Uncle said they were "something like Kavalini or something and he was collected from half way down some lake starting with T or G I think"
I was fawning over them, and when he asked if I would like to buy them I said yes, but I haven't got the set up for them as they need hard alkaline water and a big tank. The guy just looked at me stupid and said that the he hadn't done any of that and they were fine. They were just in straight dechlorinated water out of the tap, (which is the same as mine and is very soft and the pH is 6!!!!!) And the tank that all 8 of the in it was a tank was 150L (which is about 40G) as the big tank that he got with them was too big so he got a smaller one. I nearly died.
I asked him what sort of filter etc he had, he had a UGF, it came with the tank. I asked him how often he changed the water, and he said he'd done it 3 times since he had the fish as it was too much work, and he hadn't done it since the end of September as he had been too busy.

I couldn't help myself, I wanted to get them in a set up that they should be in! So I bought them. (yes slap me around or what ever, impulse buy). (Absolute bugger that he's just handed them over to the petshop, I had to buy them from them not the guy)

I know that what they are in now at my place isn't ideal, but I'm working on it.

So I shifted the tetras and dollars into a 35G that I got, and put the fronts in the 55G that they were in.

I know that I'll need to get a bigger tank for them, the 55G isn't big enough, but surely it has to be better than the 40G. I'm currently looking at 2 big tanks, (my hubby is going to shool me!) both 180G. (6'x2'x2'), should have them in July.

Will these guys be OK until then, or will I need to get something bigger than the 55G until I can get the 180G set up?

How do I go about getting them used to the right water again? How long will it take to get them used to the hard alkaline water? Do you use the additive for the lake cichlids that you can buy at the LFS? Or how do you go about it?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've jumped in the deep end here! Tell me off if you like. I just didn't want them to go to someone who wasn't going to look after them properly (Ok I'm not at the moment either, but I know that and I'm going to rectify the situation as soon as I can!)

Then to top it all off, I neary lost the female (well I'm assuming it's a female!) she jumped out of the tank. We weren't home and my hubby got home before I did and could here flapping. And she'd landed behind the tank!!!! (How she got out is beyond me, there's glass over the top, she must have got out the corner that's cut out so the pipes and all can go though in the corner where there is no pipes!)
So I came home just as he was putting her back in the tank. He had to use one of the kitchen utensils to push her along the back of the tank to the side of the tank, and then used the tongs to grab her (by the head poor thing) as there's not even a 2" gap behind or at the side of the tank. She's still alive, she's looking a little...mottley and a little worse for the wear though.

Here's a couple of pics of them.

[fraggle]

Hi!
Is anyone able to give me any advice on how to set up a tank for frontosas and how to get them acclimated to hard alkaline water again?
My male is about 9 inches and the female is about 6 1/2 (I forgot to put that in the previous post!)
Thanks! (sorry just give a bit of a bump)

[kaybee]

The 180gal you're getting in the summer will be ideal for them. The 55gal in the interim may be ok, hard to say for sure. The key indicators that it won't be ok is aggression.

Large weekly water changes are probably in order to keep nitrates manageable. To increase pH and alkalinity, either add a media bag containing crushed coral and place that in the filter (or sump if you've got one) or add 1 teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) a week to gradually bring those levels up. One of the cichlid salt product specifically intended for lake tanganyikan cichlids will also suffice.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4192

At any point between now and the 180gal aggression becomes unmanageable you may need to get a similarly sized tank to place the aggressor in (this may or may not occur, but just be prepared that it may be a possibility, granted the presence of a mature male).

Once the 180gal is acquired you'll need to get more frontosas to establish a colony (mostly females and maybe another male or two).

Still can't figure out the rationale of giving the kids the smaller frontosas because they didn't want big fish to take care of. If provide adequate care, they'll get larger than the big male you have (which hasn't reached full size yet) in only a few years.

[fraggle]

Thanks Kaybee,

I wondered about my bloke getting a bit rough with my little chickie, thought I might have to get another tank for her (I've seen him chase her a couple of times) her fins are pretty torn up, but then they weren't in tip top condition at the petshop and the whole episode of jumping out of the tank and hubby trying to rexcue her didn't help either.

Oh, the guys logic as to the kids not having "big" fish to look after is they "only grow to the tank" :ssuprised: :scry: poor fish, I felt so bad for them.

[Northernguy]

Fraggle, Great score! They are beautiful Fronts!
Its too bad he kept the smaller ones.
I was curious as to how to get a tank to go brackish a while back.this is what I found out.http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=35615
I really hope it helps!

[fraggle]

Thanks NG! I thought they looked pretty nice too:22:
I thought that the "smaller" fish might have been fry since when he indicated with his hands he only indicated about an 2 inches, and I don't think that fronts (even in bad water conditions) would stay at 2 inches for long. (maybe that's just me being hopeful that they bred! LOL)

Ooh, I will have to do some research won't I! I didn't realise I had to monitor SG!!!!! Ooops. I have jumped in the deep end haven't I?

[Northernguy]

Just read up on it and get started.lolthumbs2:
I know Brookfish and Crispy both keep them and have had great success by the looks of it!
i would send them a pm!
Good luck!

[btate617]

Here's a few links for ya fraggle

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/frontosa_variant_map.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/frontosa_corner.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/frontosa_sexing.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/frontosa_sexing.php

Those are just the ones I have saved, hopefully they help you out some.
Great find by the way!


Brian

One more
http://www.cyphos.com/?

[Brookfish]

Hi Fraggle, first let me congratulate you on picking up some quality Fronts,
they are fine looking specimens, best of luck with them.
Every Front keeper and cichlid keeper for that matter has their own way
of keeping/caring for them, and what ever works best for them and the
fish is the way to go I reckon, what works for one person may not work for another but here's the way I keep my Fronts..
Most important thing with them is water quality I reckon, so I try and do
a 30/50/70% water change 3 times a week if I have time, if not at least
a 50% water change once a week, this really promotes growth and healthy
frontosas.
Try and get your ph above 8, I do this by mixing coral sand/gravel with regular play sand, but be careful when cleaning you glass, the coral scratches
the glass real easy.
Like the guys say some people swear by adding salt to the aquarium, I never have, and never had a problem.
Regarding your fish, there is no way of telling if you have a pair, 2 males
or 2 females as both sexes develop the nuptial hump, if you do have a pair
they should be sexually mature at the size yours are, so fingers crossed.
Frontosas do best with a ratio of 1 male to 4+ females but who's to say
you won't get lucky.
If they do happen to breed for you, you will notice the female holding the
eggs in her mouth, remove her to another tank and provide some cover for her, with a bit of luck she will spit between 10 and 30 nice size fry for you.
This is just my experience with fronts fraggle, it's not gospel, lol
but I hope it helps a little.

[fraggle]

Thanks Mike

I'll have to get some coral I think. At least that way the pH will be more suitable (and I suppose the KH/GH will change too won't it? LOL)

When I was looking for info on them, everything that was mentioned to use if something was wrong with the fish, from torn fins, to being egg bound, was to put Epson salts in the water, up to 3 cups into 100G, that seems like a lot to me! But I suppose if it's worked for people, who am I to question it?

I don't mind doing more water changes so that's OK.

So you can leave Mum with the eggs? (I suppse that's a silly question, they don't get "stripped" in the wild do they? LOL) I thought that they were good parents, but then I learned that most people who breed them strip the eggs from her (mind you I wouldn't have a clue how to do that!)

I suppose I'll have to wait until I get the big tank and get a few more to beef up the group a bit. ummm, I know that they are piscavors, so will they eat their little ones? And how big do the new ones have to be before they won't get eaten? (I suppose that's how long's a piece of string huh? LOL)


They really are gorgeous looking fish I reckon. Does anyone know what sort they are? The guy said they were Kavalini, but that isn't a sort, it's Kavala or Karalini, but then they could be Burundi too. (especially since they all look the same! LOL)

[Gemini]

Nice pick up Fraggle!thumbs2:
I would think if there was 8 in a 40G, your 2 in a 55G should be ok. They should be sorta used to each other by now - though all the aggression will only be on each other not shared...
Get the 180G set up as quick as you can. I don't think you need to measure SG, they aren't brackish are they? They are just cichlids.

[Brookfish]

Thanks Mike

So you can leave Mum with the eggs? (I suppse that's a silly question, they don't get "stripped" in the wild do they? LOL) I thought that they were good parents, but then I learned that most people who breed them strip the eggs from her (mind you I wouldn't have a clue how to do that!)


A lot of breeders will strip the female of her fry but
for a first go I would remove her to another tank and see how
she got on, stripping isn't difficult, if you get to that stage we'll
talk you through it, at least crispy will, he's the expert lol .

I suppose I'll have to wait until I get the big tank and get a few more to beef up the group a bit. ummm, I know that they are piscavors, so will they eat their little ones? And how big do the new ones have to be before they won't get eaten? (I suppose that's how long's a piece of string huh? LOL)

I have 11 2" juvies in with a 6" Front and I don't have a prob regards
aggression or fish getting eaten, but if you wanted to introduce juvies
to your colony I would suggest at least 2", like most cichlids, if it fits
in the mouth fronts will try and eat it.


They really are gorgeous looking fish I reckon. Does anyone know what sort they are? The guy said they were Kavalini, but that isn't a sort, it's Kavala or Karalini, but then they could be Burundi too. (especially since they all look the same! LOL)

I think your guy meant Kigoma, they do look like Burundi but they have
7 stripes insted of 6, yours have 6 stripes and a vertical stripe running
through the eye so I would say you have Burundi.

[btate617]

I agree with Brook, I say Burundi also. Some female fronts will hold the whole time and spit on their own, some will never and will eat the eggs everytime. You will have to wait and see, but stripping is pretty easy.
Mine wont eat any small fish, I have thrown in fry I had a few times. They never eat them, mine don't anyways. I end up having to wait until they grow a bit so they are easier to catch to get them out of there, so I have stopped trying.

Brian

[Crispy]

definitely look like burundi to me! good luck with the fronts!! I don't use any salts whatsoever in my front tank or crushed coral. They're in a pH of about 7.4 and my key to success is pristine water conditions. Now I do twice a week 30-40%.

[fraggle]

I'm happy with Burundi. (since the Kavala and Karilani look exactly like them but there are apparently "colour" difference in the dorsal fin, I wouldn't know what to look for and I like Burundi anyway)
Well that's good to know, the less I have to put in the tank to make it "right" the better! LOL

I still think I'll need something to buffer the water though, my water out of the tap tops out at 8.8 and then drops to 6 (or below, my test only goes to 6) over the next couple of days, need something to keep it a bit more stable, don't think they'd like the fluctuations!

I can keep up the water changes, that's fine. Mind you I'm trying to get them into clean water slowly, I was due to do a water change on the 55 community when I put them in. I thought that if I put them into clean water straight away they might die of shock, the nitrates in the water that they were in (I tested it) were completely off the chart. Since he hadn't done a water change since Sept, so my nitrates were up a bit and I thought I'd leave them in that for a little while and slowly change the water out so that they could get used to it. Didn't want them to keel over on me!