mixing African/CA/SA cichlids

[Crispy]

I know we always tell people not to mix new world and old world cichlids because of agression/water chemistry issues, but does anyone have a mix that has worked out for them?? I have found a happy medium with my frontosas and eartheaters (both docile). I love SA cichlids, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to have a nice front colony. Most tank bred cichlids adapt to a neutral water chemistry, so I'm not worried about that.

So I'm wondering if anyone else does this and has found a happy medium mixing their cichlids?

[Deleted User]

Well you have said it yourself. If it works and you reasearch it well and condition them correctly I don't see why not. I have never tried it myself but if it works and is done correctly why not? They say not to put clown loach in the tanks too but many do. :ssmile:

[rageybug]

We kept a mix of African cichlids, SA cichlids and even a Bichir in the same tank. As long as you keep an eye on the tank and remove any trouble makers, mix em' up!

[Crispy]

I'm glad to see a few people do it with some success!

[SamAnthrax]

Personally I see it as taking a big risk for your own benefit. There is a chance (a quite big one at that) of them not getting along and one of the fishes getting injured because of it and it's a risk I personally wouldn't take.

[Crispy]

Personally I see it as taking a big risk for your own benefit. There is a chance (a quite big one at that) of them not getting along and one of the fishes getting injured because of it and it's a risk I personally wouldn't take.

I guess it does take alot of research on the types of fishes you want to mingle, but it can be done with great results. I love my mixed tank! Although my next tank I'll probably stick to SA/CA.

BTW> my loaches are indonesian and peacock eel is asian, so I guess my tank is fish from all over the world.

[Fishguy2727]

The issues comes down to living versus thriving. Unless both fish are breeding you can't be sure that this unrecommended combination and compromise is allowing them to thrive. Frontosas are Tanganyikan, with about the highest pH in freshwater in the World, so keeping them in something tolerable to Geophagus (from the softest water in the world) is not allowing long-term thriving to occur. I recomment that as soon as you can make it possible, get them separated so they can both truly thrive and reward you with what thriving fish can do, amazing colors and natural behaviors (hopefully successful breeding to top it all off).

[btate617]

Unless both fish are breeding you can't be sure that this unrecommended combination and compromise is allowing them to thrive.
What if he had all females?? then what could he use to tell if his fish are thriving.


55-Viquarium: tons of plants, 4 firebelly toads, 2 firebelly newts, 2 eastern newts, tons of guppies, snails

fire belly toads, aren't they from Europe/Asia. ,fire belly newts, Japan right? And eastern newts (Notophthalmus viridescens) North America yes?? They must be just living yes?


I think the whole debate comes into when we give new people info on their fish....a lot easier to keep fish in the water they prefer, and easier to feed a proper diet if they all require the same foods. You put the time into your tank and you are the one who enjoys it.... thats my opinion. And I am not taking Crispy's side I tend to like the same types of fish together myself.

Brian

[Fishguy2727]

The animals in my viquarium all have the same care requirements, which means they can all live together and still thrive since I do not have to compromise the care of any of them for them to cohabitate. Note I never mentioned the fish are incompatible simply because they are from different regions of the world. I am not someone who thinks they can't live together in captivity simply because they don't in nature.

Keep these fish in proper conditions for five years and keep them in compromised conditions for five years and you will see the difference. If you want to just mix what you want and ignore things like very hard versus very soft natural waters that is your choice, but please don't recommend that others do the same thing.

Breeding is a big indicator of thriving, without breeding it is hard to determine if the compromise is too far for the fish. 'Whatever works' is the same as 'fine' and 'good enough'. It is a way of saying "they aren't dead, they look good, but they aren't thriving and I am okay with that". Unfortunately the fihs get no say in all this and our compromised care can lead to a slow death for them.

The people who have the best, healthiest fish who are a shining example of what that species is supposed to be like are the ones who are unwilling to compromise the proper care of those fish.

[btate617]

If all his fish are healthy and their care is met whats the problem? The biggest issue with water per. are trying to breed. Some people who live in the country and are on well water will not be able to breed certain types of fish, so should they not keep these fish? Because if the best thing you could do to show your tank is alive and thriving is having your fish breed for you.... then what about say an all male peacock tank? How would you know if they thrive? Or would there be no way to tell?


I recomment that as soon as you can make it possible, get them separated so they can both truly thrive and reward you with what thriving fish can do, amazing colors and natural behaviors (hopefully successful breeding to top it all off).

Every fish I have seen of Crispy's seem to be doing pretty darned good.
His steindachneri look great and his fronts aren't too shabby either.

[Crispy]

My steindachneri breed like crazy... I got more fry than I know what to do with. I think my fronts are still a little immature to breed, but they've gone through the motions. I don't see ANY probs with my tank. Not one nipped fin, no agression whatsoever. I've failed miserably trying to mingle africans with SAs in the past, but this tank seems to work perfectly. It was trial and error of many years for me to pull it off, but this time it just works. I still don't recommend it, but it CAN work if the right research is done and the fish get along. I never intended to mingle cichlids, but based on what I like it just worked out that way.

[Fishguy2727]

By keeping the water parameters outside of their ideal ranges he is compromising.

Again, looking good and being 'healthy' does not mean they are thriving. Yet again, being fine for now doesn't mean they will thrive long term.

An all male peacock tank with the proper parameters doesn't need to have breeding to show they are thriving. The whole reason I brought up breeding was that if breeding occurs when you are not in ideal ranges it shows they are still breeding. If you keep them in their ideal ranges you don't need to breed to know they are thriving.

This is a forum. That means that people get to come and share their opinions. I shared mine. You have an issue with that. That is fine. But please do not suggest that people compromise the care of their fish.

I suggested he separate them. This is because no matter how well they are doing now, which is debatable, they will do even better and defintiely truly thrive if kept in ideal conditions.

Yes, in many cases the source water people have can greatly limit the fish they can have. I do not have rays for a reason. I am cutting down on discus, tetras, and other soft water species because my water is not favorable for them and will not let them truly thrive to their full potential because of how hard it is. This is why I keep things like goldfish, platies, danios, and saltwater. These fish are a better option for my very hard well water.

We as fishkeepers need to do the best we can to allow our fish to thrive. This means if I can't afford a 300 gallon tank I don't get to have a peacock bass and cram it in a 75 and try and just do lots of water changes. We have to work within our means. If I have very soft water I don't get to have Lake Tanganyikans without adjusting the parameters. If I have bery hard water I don't get to have discus.

Crispy:
In my experience keeping them separate is a good idea. I even would separate things like mbunas and peacocks. There are lots of issues that effect compatibility. Natural water parameters and behavior are the two most significant. When we keep the fish separated according to these the fish are much more comfortable (although they can seem comfortable) and they really thrive. Their colors are better, growth is better, their behavior is more natural, they simply do better.

What is the pH in the 130?

[rageybug]

Here's my 2 cents....

I kept 2 Jack Depseys, a Jaguar Cichlid, 3 female and 1 male red zebra cichlid, an eratus (wrong spelling I'm sure), a bichir, and a pleco all in the same tank. Believe it or not, all three female red zebras had babies within one week. I had this tank going for several years. Nobody died, nobody suffered, and most of the fry made it. I did not intend to house these fish together but the situation called for it at the time and it worked out.


Should you keep different fish together? If you want to.

[Fishguy2727]

A debate is two or more people sharing information about a given topic in question. It forces both sides to provide factual information to support their opinion. It benefits everyone involved in the discussion and everyone reading the thread. It forces all known relevant information to be shared so that everyone is better informed about that topic. This is one of the most beneficial aspects of a forum and having advanced keepers around to share their opinions and experiences.

If anyone has any issues about a given debate or information in it they can either join in and maturely share their opinion, or if it bothers them that much simply move on to other threads. There is no need to pop in, give an opinion, inappropriately put down the thread (and indirectly those involved in it) and then leave. Any posts need to be made with maturity and decency. This is a forum for fishkeepers of all ages and that needs to be kept in mind when any post is made, no matter how redciulous you think a given thread has become.

[Lady Hobbs]

The reason to even have a forum is to ask questions and get all sides and all opinions. If you were to get only the opinions of those who agree with you, what would be the point in posting the question to began with?

We ALL have opinions and are ALL entitled to state them so let's have a fish forum here where ALL opinions are welcome and take the kick boxing attitudes elsewhere.

Please go back and read thru this thread now that 20 edits have been done and see how much nicer it is without the snotty remarks?

[gm72]

Lady Hobbs is the nice one and perhaps I'm not. I'm going to come behind her here and say clean up your acts (to those who failed to be able to maintain an appropriate and mature attitude in the discussion). Such a waste of time and energy to bring a very good discussion down to the level of a child. That is not what we are here for.

[Lady Hobbs]

I don't think there is a real firm answer here because tank size is everything when it comes to stocking. We see cichlids from the same area's that don't get along and we see mixed cichlids that should not get along, do fine. Territory space is really a deciding factor, in my opinion.

Some have no problem keeping angels with neons, some keep oscars with community fish, some keep goldfish with community fish, etc. Fish raised together may do better together than added together as adults. There really is no answer that applies to all fish or all groups of fish.

If it was me (and it is not) I would keep cichlids acccording to regions they come from. But it is not me so do what works for you and if they don't get along be prepared to separate them but keep in mind the tank requirement for all.

Obviously, fish in a 55 gallon needs to be better matched up than fish in a 400 gallon so just keep tank size and water requirements in mind.

[Crispy]

Crispy:
In my experience keeping them separate is a good idea. I even would separate things like mbunas and peacocks. There are lots of issues that effect compatibility. Natural water parameters and behavior are the two most significant. When we keep the fish separated according to these the fish are much more comfortable (although they can seem comfortable) and they really thrive. Their colors are better, growth is better, their behavior is more natural, they simply do better.
What is the pH in the 130?

Even if they are seperated in different tanks, they would still get the same water. I don't use chems to play with the pH. I have a very neutral pH just above 7. These fish did not come from the wild, these fish have been tank raised as were their parents. They've adapted to a neutral pH over generations and can thrive in "less than perfect" water chemistry. They don't fight, so I don't see why separating them would make them thrive more.

[Fishguy2727]

What parameters were their parents bred in?

Even in captivity most of the people I have talked to who keep frontosas alter the chemistry.

Yes, if you don't alter the pH/KH then separating won't make much of a difference. But even very hardy species that are many generations in captivity will do EVEN BETTER when the chemistry is altered to their ideal parameters. If it were my tank when I had the opportunity to separate I would and try to alter the pH/KH for the frontosas and see if there is any difference. If not then I would save my money and stop using the buffer and salt. If I did see a difference then I would keep trying to get them to thrive as much as possible.

[Crispy]

fishguy> check out all the fry I got from the eartheaters in the 'stripping the female eartheaters' thread, I'd say they're a thriving bunch!

[Fishguy2727]

I am not talking about them. I was asking about the Frontosas. I can believe the eartheaters could thrive in that pH.

What pH/KH were the frontosas' parents bred in?

[Crispy]

What pH/KH were the frontosas' parents bred in?

It was just plain old dechlored tap water from this area, about 7.2 pH, same they are still in.

[Jeffbdd]

I run a 55g, had 2(4")1(2.5") electric yellow, 2(5")1(1.5")GT, 1(2")convict, they got along fine, recently traded 2 bigger electric yellow for some african river cichlid bout 4", They all do fine.

[The Shield]

I personally have not had any success mixing Africans with SA's or CA's. The American's were just too aggressive towards the African's. I have found success with mixing a Dempsey, Oscar, and several Convicts, which are currently residing in my tank. With that combination I try to keep the PH around 7 in order to keep them all happy. If the PH goes too high the Oscar is unhappy, and if it goes too low the Dempsey is unhappy. That's the price I pay to keep those 2 beautiful fish in the same tank though.