What is going on??

[fishymommy]

I have had a constant patturn of death in my fish tank since this past spring. Every fish I have had die has had symptoms of a swelling belly. Most do just fine for a couple of days and then out of the blue I find them dead. Others got lethargic and stopped eating and started to swim funny. Only two have had slightly prickly scales.

My fish population in the spring was three neon tetras, five rasboras, four dwarf gouramis, a dwarf african frog, and a mystery snail all in a 20g.

It first started off with my dwarf gouramis. I had four dwarf gouramis that were all good and happy and then every 2-3 weeks one would get the large belly symptoms, and die. With or without the lethargy and lack of appetite. After the first one I switched to Omega One flake food instead of the tetramin chip/flake things I had been feeding them because someone suggested it to prevent constipation. I got two more dwarf gouramis but the same thing happened to them also even with the good food.

I feed my fish twice a day a pinch of flakes morning and night. Just a small pinch between my fingers which is enough to keep them busy hunting down food flakes for two minutes.

Somewhere in all this it seemed like there was a break so I got some more neons so they had a school of 6 instead of just three.

After all four of my gouramis died I tried a female swordtail. She did ok for a couple days then got lethargic, then fat, then not eating, then dead. I read about Dropsy but people said it was rare and not to worry about it. They said the gouramis and the breed of swordtail I had gotten were weaker breeds that died easy so just to try out some tougher fish.

So I gave up for a while buying new fish and just stuck with the ones I had. Unfortunately, during this break I started losing my neons also. Every 3-4 weeks now a neon would just barely get fat and act fine then a few days later I would find it stuck in a plant. I started doing research and as soon as I noticed one fish started getting fat I would feed them peas without the shells, flakes soaked in garlic, and even attempted giving the tank a good dose of Maracyn II for dropsy.

Nothing has worked. I still keep losing my neons. I got down to just three neons again when it seemed like it had stopped. There was a month break when I hadn't lost any fish so I went out and got my neon school up to 8. That was in September. Now the same things have happened. I am back down to five neons from the eight. Two of the three dead got fat really fast. One after a while had trouble swimming so I put him out of his misery but the other I just got fat. I instantly stopped feeding them for a day to let any constipation digest and then fed them spirulina flakes. Unfortunately that didn't work and I just found my poor neon in a plant dead about ten minutes ago. He was perfectly fine last night, eating and swimming around being happy with just the slightly bulging tummy.

I am tired of my poor fish dying. It makes me really sad that I have tried so much and nothing has worked. What confuses me more is that through this entire time, my rasboras have been perfectly healthy (knock on wood). I have had them almost a year and they have put up with me learning how to cycle a tank to dosing them with garlic, fancy food, fungus, bacteria, and dropsy medication. Not one of them has ever had a fat tummy and they are always very active and happy.

I apologise for this long story but I want to know what is going on and how to stop it. To recap, I have tried fancy food, spirulina flakes, garlic soaked food, Pimafix, Melafix, and Maracyn II. Nothing has worked. I will post my parameters of my tank in just a sec. I just wanted to get the story written up quickly so people could start trying to help sooner.

Please, I try very hard to be a good fishy mommy and want so bad for them to be happy and healthy. Thanks for putting up with my long story if you've gotten this far.

Does anybody have any idea what is going on and what I should do?

Thank you very much,

fishymommy :scry:

[fishymommy]

So parameters after just testing are as follows:

pH: 7-7.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
Temp: 79
Filtration: Penguin Bio-wheel meant for 50g
Bubble wall for lots of air
substrate is gravel/pebbles
fake plants and decorations to hide in
20g tank

[Sharon]

Well, the water quality is excellent. thumbs2: Fish are bloating...wonder about internal parasites? I'm going to leave this for someone with more experience in disease...

[fishymommy]

Ok. Well thank you for taking the time to read and try to help.

[terrapin24h]

here's my wild shot in the dark

Neon tetra disease? If so, NOT good news:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

The cyclic nature of your deaths(a bunch, then quiet, then a bunch) tends lead me to think that it's some kind of parasite or virus that may be causing your grief. What you describe sounds similar to anecdotal accounts OF N-T-D i've read on the web, but by no means am i an authority. It could also be dropsy, but i dunno:

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if it's either, me thinks you have large problems on your hands. I don't know as that you'll be able to keep anything alive in there for too long

Have you taken a sample of tank and tap water toa a LFS that has a good kit? Maybe there is something in your water that you can't see from your tests doing it. Are you on a well or city water?

--chris

[Sharkman]

yea I was thinking it might be neon tetra disease too. The gourami deaths could be explained from not being cycled properly. If they were bought after the tank cycled, then I don't know. How often do you change the water?

[gourami*girl]

So sorry about your losses, Fishmommy. It sounds like you are working very hard to keep your tank healthy, so kudos to you for a good attitude.

How long were your fish bloated before they died? Did you ever carefully examine their scales to see if they were raised? (if they are, it is likely dropsy). I know that gouramis in particular are suseciptible to dropsy, but I'm not sure about swordtails or neons.

You may have whatever pathogen is causing the dropsy, and whenever it finds a weak or susecptible fish it strikes. That would explain why the rasboras are managing so well. I don't know what you could do to get rid of the potential pathogen without completely stripping the tank. Maybe others could comment.

I had a gourami recently die of what I think may have been dropsy. To protect my other gourami, I raised the temperature of the water to 84 degrees, and did large frequent water changes for about a week. So far so good, although I don't know if we are out of the woods yet.

Good luck!

[fishymommy]

Thank you for your responses. As for the NTD, I'll read up but how would that explain the gouramis or the swordtail deaths?

Typically once the fish get fat they last anywhere from two to five days and then die.

I am willing to do anything that is necessary to end this. I haven't thought of taking a sample to a fish store just because I figured they'd tell me the same things. pH, trate, trites, and ammonia. If you think it would be a good idea I can try but I'm doing finals right now for college and there are multiple winter storms going on this week so I won't be able to travel for a while.

[fishymommy]

As for WC, I usually do them once a week and take out about 30-40% of the water then fill it back up again with Amquil plus conditioner. I've done that for as long as I've had the tank so thats what all the fish would have had.

[Adrian]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here as well. What are you feeding your fish? What type of food? Gourami's like a varied diet, but be careful what you vary in the diet. Avoid foods that may contain parasites.

[fishymommy]

I currently feed my remaining fish (5 rasboras n 5 neons) a mix between omega one protein formula, omega one color boost, and spirulina flakes. Once in a while they get freeze dried tubifex worms and the rasboras like to munch on mysis shrimp (neons too wittle)

[Adrian]

Here is something I think you might find interesting. "Because Tubifex feed on anaerobic bacteria they can cause intestinal disorders in fish (food poisoning, basically) and septicemia (which means blood-poisoning). Predatory Cichlids such as Oscars can become quite ill after eating Tubifex because they eat the worms regardless of whether the worms are live or severely decomposed. Cichlids from lake Malawi and lake Tanganyika crave these worms because they are a rare delicacy in those lakes. The consequence of feeding live Tubifex worms to African Cichlids is a disease known as ``Malawi Bloat'' which is a severe bacterial infection in the intestine (Malawi Cichlids have very long intestines because most of them are herbivores)."

[fishymommy]

hmm thats good to know. Ok, so that could prove helpful in diagnosing the dying neons further, but I only recently started feeding the tubifex worms. Only the past three dead neons would have possibly eaten them.

Note to self... don't feed tubifex worms....

[fishymommy]

So what do I do? There are many ideas on what could be affecting my fish but what do I do now to stop anything else from happening?

[Sharkman]

i don't know if this helps, but when the fish are dead, are their mouths open or closed? Any chance the foods you are feeding other than the flakes are just too big for them to crush in their mouths and they are choking?

[Sharon]

It's me again. I've been thinking, which is a rare thing for me to be doing! It's common sense that fish either die because of water quality, or disease. Water quality seems good. I didn't ask about oxygen content? Is there any chance that toxins are getting in the water...hair spray, air fresheners, etc. If you have ruled out all of the above, look to disease. If internal parasites seem likely, I'd treat with Levaimsole, or some other reputable product. I'm not terribly familiar with meds. Fish with internal parasites should have symptoms...watch them closely. Observe the poop. If there are parasites, poop will be white and stringy. Anus may be inflamed or enlarged. You may even see worms protruding from the anus. I know you think you'll have to be sitting in front of the tank all the time, but a lot of quick checks throughtout the day may reveal something. Good luck and keep us posted!

Here's a link about diseases...

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[LORENZO]

:fish: :fish: You best bet is too make sure those neons were in the store for some time before you bought them. they are suceptible to Neon tetra disease. But I know that with my discus I won't feed them the tubifex i would be afraid of an intestinal infection. Try Hikari bloodworms that is what i use with the neons and I have lots of them thriving on that. Don't up their temperature too much they don't like that. They can be finicky fish sometimes be careful of the batch you might get. Feed a variety and only the best foods. But frozen blood worms by Hikari ohhh they are fine.

[fishymommy]

Umm I'm not sure.. I think they were always closed. Yeah, I probably would have noticed if they were open..

As for the water quality, I live in a small dorm and I use hair spray so some could possibly be getting in the water. However, it wouldn' be much b/c the tank is mostly covered and I don't spray by it. As for other toxins, I know nothing is being dumped into the tank but I'm not sure what the water quality from the tap is. I've said I live in a dorm and it tastes fine to me but idk if there is something nasty in it.

So someone mentioned earlier about stripping down my tank. What does that include and could i do it?

I haven't noticed any paracity symptoms like the ones you've mentioned but I'll keep an eye on them. Its not too hard since they are right next to my desk. I rarely see them poo tho just because they are so small. With the gouramis I remember there being long stringy white poo like you described.

[fishymommy]

Umm I'm not sure.. I think they were always closed. Yeah, I probably would have noticed if they were open..



I mean their mouths

[Dave66]

I suppose you are using tap water in your tank, fishymommy? If you're on city water especially, low levels of toxins, like iron, lead, copper, pesticides and the like, accrue over time in aquariums, and it gets to the level were fish exhibit strange symptoms and die. You'd have to take a water sample from your aquarium to a university or similar that's equipped with a spectrometer to know exactly what's in your tank water, element-wise.
Every time you do a partial water change you are adding more and more bad stuff from your tap into the tank.
Also, you should be doing your evaporation top-offs with distilled water or similar. Remember, when water evaporates, just the pure water evaporates, and all minerals and dissolved solids are left behind.
If you have a hardness test kit, you may be surprised by your readings.

Dave

[fishymommy]

So what do I do to keep this from happening? Because even if I went and found the amounts in the water, I wouldn't be able to stop it from being in the tap water. What can I do to make sure there aren't any nasty toxins in my tank? I don't have access to distilled water either. I do the 30-40% WC weekly. Should I do larger WC or more often to try to keep the concentration low? Is this the most likely cause to all of my problems? Or is there still some bacteria, virus, or parasite causing all of my issues?

Keep in mind that I've only been living here at my dorm since August... That could still mean that both water companies have those small traces of toxins in the water. Is that likely? I have no idea...

So what should I be doing now and in the future to help my fish?

[Dave66]

Grocery stores carry gallon jugs of both distilled and spring waters. If you start doing your partial changes especially with the spring water your tank will pep up. Just make sure that you put in is exactly the same temperature as that in the tank. Your tank being a 20 that's a cheap solution, and the fish you have will appreciate the softer conditions. Just do 20 percent changes for a every week for a month or so, because you don't want to shock your fish with vastly different chemistries.

Dave

[Sharon]

If the dorm room is as small as the room I lived in, I would be worried about the hair spray as well. Try covering the tank with a large towel, or spray outside the room. I use spray sometimes as well, but never in the same room as a fish tank. That stuff could kill a horse!!!

[Naturestee]

I may be way off here but I have a couple of thoughts. First, what brand is the Spirulina flake, and what are the ingredients? A lot of the brands sold don't list Spirulina until farther down in the list so they tend not to have much more in them than a general flake that includes Spirulina. When I found this out I switched to Nutrafin Max Spirulina Flakes which is supposed to have 30% Spirulina, and so far I like it.

I also noticed that you feed Omega One, which has high fats and low fiber. It's a popular high quality brand but that aspect might lend it to causing constipation in sensitive fish.

I would try feeding more Spirulina and less other flakes- maybe one meal every other day of non-spirulina flakes. Also try adding frozen peas (thaw, remove skin, and squish) or Daphnia (freeze dried or frozen). This could help if constipation is a problem, and if nothing else it won't hurt them.

To be on the safe side I might also try feeding a medicated anti-parasite food also. Garlic is a popular herbal remedy but actual medications are a safer bet.

I really hope you can get to the bottom of this! You've obviously taking great care of your fish and it's a pity that you've run into these health problems.

[gourami*girl]

So someone mentioned earlier about stripping down my tank. What does that include and could i do it?


Unless you are absolutely sure it is a pathogen and there is no other way to kill it, I wouldn't strip down your tank. Plus you still have rasboras that you would have no where to put.

Stripping your tank completely would involved emptying it out, bleaching everything in a dilute bleach solution, rinsing everything REALLY well, and buying new filter material. It's a pain in the butt, even more-so in a dorm, and you would need to re-cycle your tank before adding any fish.

I would rule out other options, and try other ways to beat the pathogen (if it is a pathogen) before stripping the tank down.

Gouramis and neons are both rather delicate fish-types. Maybe if everything seems good in your tank after a while, you could try with some hardier fish. I've heard cardinals are hardier than neons, maybe try a school of them instead of the neons?

[bamboo900]

I would call a local fish store or te acwariem closeest to you. they may know whats going on

[fishymommy]

Ok, so good things to do would be more spirulina and less fat/low fiber foods, medicated foods, distilled/spring water for water changes, and if desperate strip down my tank. Sounds good for now. If the Omega One is a good yet bad in the constipation area, what are some good brands that I can get? I've heard of Hikara. Are there others I should look into?

Would a medicated food be bad for the fish? Could I get some and feed it to them for a while just to rule out parasites as an issue?

Also, I am going to be going home for xmas soon. I'm transporting all the inhabitants of my 20g and putting them in a 90g at my house (my parents keep it running and healthy for me when I'm at school). Would this be a good time that I could strip down my tank?

I could do all the bleaching and stuff when they are safe in another aquarium and run new filter material in the 90g so it gets full of healthy bacteria that wouldn't have the possible pathogen. Could this be a good way/oportunity to just eliminate that possible factor?

[Sharon]

You'd be exposing the fish in the 90gal to a possible disease or parasite...I don't think I'd risk it.

[fishymommy]

What do i do then? I only have a 5g that they could go in during xmas break which is a month long and I can't leave them here at my dorm for a month..

Also, I had a pleco that was here in the 20g that moved to the 90g with no problems...

[cer]

How did you cycle your tank? Also neons are fish full of sickness. How many of your dwarf gouramis are male?

[fishymommy]

I don't have anymore. They all died during late spring to early summer from this thing I've got going on in my tank.

As for how I cycled my tank is very noobish style. A few of the gouramis could have died from my noobishness. I didn't understand what cycling meant so it took almost 3 months for my tank to cycle completley. However, if it had been from that, I wouldn't have expected all of these other fish to die the exact same way once my tank had 'safe' water.

[terrapin24h]

One thing i would like to point out about NTD is that many fish species are able to contract it, not just neons or tetras.

--chris

[Northernguy]

fishymommy NLS foods are excellent.Arguably one of the best foods out there.

[fishymommy]

Ok. So I'll look into finding a good NLS food. What type of medicated food would be good to make sure parasites aren't the problem?

[Northernguy]

Most NLS foods have garlic in them .Garlic is great for internal parsites.The parasites cannot eat the garlic ,therefore they starve to death.

[fishymommy]

ok so just make sure that it has garlic as an ingredient.. sweet thats easy :o) thanks

so, i'm pretty sure it will be ok to put them in the 90g. Just because I've transfered a 5" pleco and five ottos from my 20g to the 90g without thinking about it and nothing came of it. everyone is happy and healthy at home in the 90g...

So would that mean that its a good idea just to strip down the 20 when its out of use?

[Northernguy]

I would get a few small fish to keep the 20 cycled.You never know when you are going to need a quarantine tank or a hospital tank.
Just make sure that the fish you get can also go in the 90 when need be.

[fishymommy]

The fish will go back in the 20g soon. The 20g and the fish we are talking about are here with me at my dorm but I have a month long xmas vaca during which they will be moving into the 90g at my parents house (also my tank but they take care of it for me when I'm away). After the month break is over, they are coming back here to my dorm with me and going back into the 20g. I was going to do everything I could to avoid as much of a cycle as I could. I'm going to run a filter cartrage in the 90g so it gets full of healthy bacteria and I was even debating on bringing some water from the 90g that they would be use to and that is already cycled to make as much of a mini cycle as I can.

Anyway, since they will be temporarily out of the 20g, would that be a good oportunity to strip down the tank since I'm facing a mini cycle anyway?

[fishymommy]

Also, I've noticed what may be a new symptom today. One of the teenage-ish neons (not to old, not too young) is acting extra twichy today. He randomly spazes and swims in all directions for a second then stops and just swims like normal along with the others. I've taken a video of it but its still decoding on facebook. I'll post a link on here as soon as its done so you can watch. None of the other neons are doing this and I've never seen this before. He's not rubbing on things but more just spazzing in the water every so often...

[Northernguy]

That neon doesn't sound to healthy!:11:
Take the filter from the 20 with you and let it run on the 90 .That will keep it cycled.

[fishymommy]

Here is the link for the video:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]/video/video.php?v=1084633874786

I tried to follow the neon with the camera once I figured out which one it was. Towards the middle when they all go behind the plant, you can see him do the twitch thing a few times. I'm pretty sure he's the one furthest to the right and towards the bottom of the reddish plant. You can see the twitching action really well at the beginning and end of the video..

Any ideas what's going on? Is this related to the issues I've been having?

[fishymommy]

Well this sucks.. i just read the NTD website and it sorta fits. The restlessness of this neons, the bloating of the others.. crap... so what can I do to stop this? There's no cure so what can i do? It would sorta explain why my rasboras never got sick because they never pick on the neons but the gouramis and other neons might have. Even the swordtail picked on them once in a while... ugh... go figure, the one thing that seems to fit everything is uncurable.. :'(

[fishymommy]

Well, I've been thinking more. I want to isolate the neons now so they don't get anybody sick. The rasboras seem to be ok so I'm hoping they will be ok in the 90g. I was originally going to put just my frog in a 5g mini-bow kit but would it be ok to put the neons in there also? I don't think he can get sick from and it would help to keep the other fish from getting sick. I know its kind of a small tank but it seems better to separate them then risk infecting the whole 90g. Plus it seems like all of the neons have some sort of symptom. Most are paler than usual and the one is all restless. Its sad to think that I might eventually lose all of them :(

So would separating the sick neons into the 5g over xmas be a good idea? (the frog is an african dwarf frog who keeps to himself unless they threaten his food which is rare).

[terrapin24h]

Well, I've been thinking more. I want to isolate the neons now so they don't get anybody sick. The rasboras seem to be ok so I'm hoping they will be ok in the 90g. I was originally going to put just my frog in a 5g mini-bow kit but would it be ok to put the neons in there also?.

If you have a few bucks laying around, you can always use a big rubbermaid type tub as a temp tank, you'd just need to filter it and heat it and deal with the cycle thing(let's assume you can't move media or gravel on fear of transferring disease)

--chris

ps:further research i've done indicates that other diseases that can be treated are often mistaken for NTD. IOW you may be able to treat what you have with a broad spectrum anitbiotic if it is NOT true NTD, but one of the look alikes. Otherwise, i think you are going to have to separate your neons permanantly from any other fish and sterilize the tank to rid yourself of the spores. sorry

[fishymommy]

Its alright.. I just hope this is finally the problem so I can get rid of it. I've had almost a year of this and want the death to stop. So, how do I safely sterilize my tank over xmas? I've read up on bleaching the tank safely but what tips do you have?

[gourami*girl]

Its alright.. I just hope this is finally the problem so I can get rid of it. I've had almost a year of this and want the death to stop. So, how do I safely sterilize my tank over xmas? I've read up on bleaching the tank safely but what tips do you have?

When I had all of my fish die off due to a disease I emptyed the tank, filled with with a 10% bleach in hot water solution (less than 10% should be fine, but we use 10% bleach to disinfect in the lab I work in, so I knew 10% would do the trick). And left it to sit for about a half an hour (any amount of time over 10 minutes will do the trick). I also let the filter run this bleach water through it to sterilize the filter (filter medium was thrown away).

I then emptyed my tank of the bleach water and removed the decorations (except the gravel) to be rinsed seperately (don't bleach driftwood if you have it in your tank, boil it instead). I then filled and emptyed the tank with warm water around 7 times and rinsed the decorations in a seperate conatiner similarly. Each time the tank was filled, I let the filter run the clean water through it for an hour or so. It is absolutely necessary to rinse this much to get rid of all the bleach!

Then reassemble your tank and add a little extra dechlorinator to your water to get rid of any residual chlorine from the bleach. Buy new filter media for the filter and re-cycle your tank. This method is the extra-paranoid method, because I am an extra-paranoid person. I'm sure others can offer less extreme ways to sterilize your tank over xmas. Good luck!

[Northernguy]

A complete breakdown of the tank is one way!
There are diseases that mimic NTD. There is one called False NTD,it mimics NTD but is cureable.Unfortunately I can't find anymore info on it!Sorry.

[fishymommy]

This method is the extra-paranoid method, because I am an extra-paranoid person. I'm sure others can offer less extreme ways to sterilize your tank over xmas. Good luck!

Don't worry. You are always very good at giving very specific directions for paranoid people like me :o) So thank you very much

[fishymommy]

A complete breakdown of the tank is one way!
There are diseases that mimic NTD. There is one called False NTD,it mimics NTD but is cureable.Unfortunately I can't find anymore info on it!Sorry.

Thanks for telling me. I've tried many antibacteria things like Maracyn II and Pima/melafix (not sure which one is specifically bacteria but i've tried both). If it was the fake thing and would have been killed by an antibacterial, I would have thought it would be gone. I really don't mind tearing down the tank. It'll give my conscience something to feel productive over. I hate that I can't do anything for the little guys if it is truely NTD so at least trying to prevent it from happening further will make me feel better.

Thanks a bunch to everyone who has helped me out!!! You are all very awesome!