My tap water's pH is 8.4

[richl1]

I am a beginner with a 10g tank. I added some live plants and completed the fishless cyclying. When I saw the 8.4 pH, I assumed is was due to the ammonia from the cycling. I changed the water without testing the pH, and bought 2 swortails and 2 glow-light tetras. The swordtails quickly died, and I was shocked to see the ph at 8.4. The tap water, left out for a day, it goes to 8.4 pH.

Everything I read says don't mess with the pH, and buy fish that can tolerate the pH of your tap water. What fish can tolerate this pH in a 10g tank? Is it better to keep the tetras in the 8.4 pH water, or try to lower the pH?

I have another idea about the swordtails. Could they have eaten algea or the plants, and could the ammonia from the cycling have killed them.

Any help is appreciated.

Rich

[JaredCBell]

I am a beginner with a 10g tank. I added some live plants and completed the fishless cyclying. When I saw the 8.4 pH, I assumed is was due to the ammonia from the cycling. I changed the water without testing the pH, and bought 2 swortails and 2 glow-light tetras. The swordtails quickly died, and I was shocked to see the ph at 8.4. The tap water, left out for a day, it goes to 8.4 pH.

Everything I read says don't mess with the pH, and buy fish that can tolerate the pH of your tap water. What fish can tolerate this pH in a 10g tank? Is it better to keep the tetras in the 8.4 pH water, or try to lower the pH?

I have another idea about the swordtails. Could they have eaten algea or the plants, and could the ammonia from the cycling have killed them.

Any help is appreciated.

Rich


Shouldn't buy ANY fish until you know all of your water parameters. Saves time, money, head ache's and your fishes lives.

How long did you cycle for? What steps did you do to cycling? Honestly, Im not sure, I could be wrong but I dont think much fish that can handle that PH can live in a 10g. I think African Cichlids are among the few that can handle it and they sure cant live in there...

And imo, i wouldnt lower it. Water changes will bring it right back up. Sounds to me (and I could be wrong again) but you got some bad water... Also, whats the complete specs of your tank? Lots of things (like substrate) affect the PH...something in there could be the culprit... Maybe try taking everything out and just filling it with water, letting it run, do pleanty of water changes, and see if the PH changes? Lots of work I know but you have to pin point it.

*live plants may also be doing it? I dont use live plants so I dont know but thats the only thing I can think of...*

[Northernguy]

Welcome to the AC!
I really don't think your plants or algae had anything to do it!
I do think its either ammonia or nitrites.Did you get yourself a liquid test kit?

[Lady Hobbs]

I am noticing a couple things. You started with a small tank as many of us do. The small tanks get very toxic very quickly due to low water concentration. What will be horribly toxic in a 10 gallon may be hardly toxic at all in a larger tank. I am guessing your fish most likely have died from high toxic levels from the ammonia they produce, the food and the waste they produce.

Many fish can not take the toxic levels at all and many, many water changes are necessary in the beginning until you have a cycled tank. (Enough bacteria built up on your filter media as well as in your gravel.) This is why daily water testing is so important in those small tanks. (Water changing.........NOT cleaning.......during a cycle and no changing the filter media at all.)

Secondly, you mention plants which is another problem unless you have upgraded and added plant lights. Rotting plants can also cause water to become more toxic. Unless you have added plant lights, you should stick with low light plants like anubis, mosses or crypts. Most of the others will become too tall for a 10 gallon, as well.

My first guess to your pH would have been the wrong gravel was used and you picked up gravel for a cichlid tank that contained coral stones. But since you tested tap water and have that high pH, that rules that one out.

You either have water you will have a hard time dealing with or will have to use bottled RO water . It could also be that your test strips are not registering the correct pH and you will have to get the liquid tester to get more accurate readings. You could take a sample of water to your fish store and have them test for pH, as well.

Don't let them try to sell you a product to lower your pH as it will not work. You can raise pH easily but lowering it is a problem and it will only stay lower for a few hours then shoot up again. This kills fish!

You can lower pH by aging your water, adding peat pellets to your filter and a couple tricks like that but your pH is very high and it will not lower it to where you want it to be. My fish do fine in 7.6 but that 8.4 is very high and that would be of concern to me.

[richl1]

Thanks for the info. Here is some additional info.

I am using a liquid test kit called Fresh Lab from Red Sea.

The gravel is from Petco, and itis the same gravel that is in most of their tanks with the same fish.

I started cylcling about three months ago, but I messed it up because I added too much ammonia. The nitrites didn't incease, and I just let the aquaium run with just the plants but without fish for about three months. Then I started over, changed all the water, added the ammonia and within a week, the ammonia went to zero, the nitrites peaked at .2 then went to zero. All these tests were done with the liquid test kit. I used the strips for the pH -- which was a mistake.

Since then, I have regularly tested for ammonia and nitrites with the liquid test kit. Both have been zero.

More information: I have a whole house water softener, and I used this softened water for the tank. However, both softened (<100 ppm Gh) and hard water *(>280 ppm Gh) have a pH of 8.4 after one day. Is the softened water safe to use?

The swordtails could have died because I bought and put in one of those 7.0 pH buffer tablets in the tank, but they died a few days after that.

Also, before the female swordtail died, she gave birth. The fry avoided the tetras for a few days, but eventually they were eaten.

My wife bought the 10g tank at a garage sale for $5. I added a power filter and air pump. It has a light, and the plants have been doing very well. Getting a bigger tank is not an option. I can't justify spending the money when I obviously don't know what I am doing yet.

Starting over is not an option yet either -- what would I do with the two tetras?

Here is my plan. Keep the tetras alive at the current pH for as long as possible. I'll try to peat filtering to see if it helps gradually lower the pH. Adding any more fish would not be ethical.

If the tetras die, I see two options: 1) Buy a RO unit, and learn how to safely drop the pH and keep it stable. 2) Buy a bigger tank and buy fish that can handle the water's high pH.

Does anyone see any other options?

Thanks again.

[Sasquatch]

If you're pH is that high and you've got water that hard, trying to lower the pH with peat or driftwood isn't going to change much.

Fisrt, make sure that the cycle is good. Ammonia and nitrites at 0, presence of nitrates. If your nitrates are high, do regular water changes until they get below 20.

As for fish, I'd suggest platies. They like high pH hard water, so your water chemistry shouldn't pose a problem. I'd drip acclimate them in case the pH at the fish store isn't as high as yours, but platies are pretty tough fish.

I'd get 3 platies, all the same sex. It's important because platies breed ... more than rabbits. So in a 10g tank, they can overpopulate. The parents (and tetras, as you've noticed) will eat the babies, but some usually make it to a big enough size, so watch out.

As for the swords ... many people have noticed that they're pretty sensitive fish. Almost the same thing happened to us, we bought three swords for our 10g and almost killed of our tank because of them ... so don't feel too bad, it happens to everyone.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[dmagerl]

What is your KH?

If you're using a water softener, its a good bet it's removing the calcium and magnesium that contribute to a high GH but leaves behind the carbonate which gives a high KH and, as you're finding out, a high pH.

I'm using well water and a softener and my pH tests off the top end of the color charts so its around 8 or more. I asked the LFS about this and the guy just shrugged and said all the water is like this. The fish adapt and do perfectly fine. They just dont like sudden pH changes.

The good news is, your water is heavily buffered against pH swings. It also means that anything you use to change the pH will be a waste of time and money.

[Lady Hobbs]

Dropping the pH from 8.3 to 7 is more than likely what killed those tetra's because that pH probably again jumped back to where it was at 8.3.

You asked about your water softener and from all I've able to gather, it is not OK for fish tanks.

This water problem of yours is a shame because it will dominate everything you try to do with your fish tanks. You could, of course, go with African Cichlids who like that higher pH.......or of course, get an RO for under your kitchen sink and only work from that water for your fish tanks which would solve your problem and your water would not dictate what kind of fish you can enjoy.

[gm72]

You asked about your water softener and from all I've able to gather, it is not OK for fish tanks.

Water softeners are just fine for fish as long as the rest of the parameters are adequate. My house runs on a water softener and I don't have problems in any of the 14 tanks.

[Lady Hobbs]

What is your KH?

If you're using a water softener, its a good bet it's removing the calcium and magnesium that contribute to a high GH but leaves behind the carbonate which gives a high KH and, as you're finding out, a high pH.

I'm using well water and a softener and my pH tests off the top end of the color charts so its around 8 or more. I asked the LFS about this and the guy just shrugged and said all the water is like this. The fish adapt and do perfectly fine. They just dont like sudden pH changes.

The good news is, your water is heavily buffered against pH swings. It also means that anything you use to change the pH will be a waste of time and money.

I heard the softeners were not to be used on fish tanks so glad to see it's worked for you. Apparently this high pH is one of the reasons they're not recommend along with the sodium used to treat? I know people have whole house softeners and I could never figure out why they wouldn't work.

[Lady Hobbs]

Water softeners are just fine for fish as long as the rest of the parameters are adequate. My house runs on a water softener and I don't have problems in any of the 14 tanks.

:19: :19: :19: Yea! One problem solved for this guy and something to stick in my memory bank.

[gm72]

I think it may also be the kind of salt used. They have salt with an additive to help remove excess iron. I can tell you from experience that whatever is added is not at all healthy for the fish.

[richl1]

Thanks to all for the information.

I just bought a 2.5 gal jug of supermarket barnded "sping water". It has a pH of 6.2 and no hardness. It is exactly opposite to my unsoftened tap water. I mixed them 50/50, and the pH was 7.0 and 180 ppm Hardness without adding any chemicals. I know I will need to leave my tap water de-gas for a day, and carefully test the pH to keep it consistent.

My plan is to very slowly lower my tank's pH with water changes that start with 90/10 split of my water to supermarket water, and I'll ensure that the tank's pH changes not more than .1 for each water change. Eventually, I should be able to get a more neutral and stable pH.

I will not add any more fish until I am 100% confident that I can keep the water quality consistent.

Thanks for the advice. This is a very helpful sight, and I will keep reading and learning.

Rich

[Mvjnz]

Just get some blackwater extract/liquid to lower pH. Just adjust the pH before you put the water in the tank, so there are no fluctuations, and the fish should be fine.

And also make sure there is nothing in your tank which will influence pH

[Commodore 64]

If you drip acclimate your fish, very slowly, they will be fine in that pH so long as it is stable. Once you start trying to alter pH you will be forever chasing that dragon...until one time, you screw up and shock everything in your tank to death.

A stable pH of 8.4 would be just fine for virtually any fish you put in there. Just acclimate them very slowly...get yourself some airline and an adjustable valve so you can configure a very slow drip when you want to acclimate new fish.

I suspect that your fish died due to ammonia or nitrites, not pH.

[Mvjnz]

The common ones are prolly fine in that pH, but as soon as they want something a little more unusual or sensitive, it will be a prob.

pH should be easy enought o adjust, as long as they take the time to test everything properly before putting it in the tank.

I know heaps of people who adjust pH in lots of tanks. It can be done, there's no reason why it would ever go wrong or kill any fish.

[sleeby]

My PH os over 8 and I have many species in it with no problems from it. German Blue Rams, neons, angels, rummies, cories, ottos. . .

I would take the slowly acclimate advice - first, ask and find out the PH of the lfs - it may be around the same as yours which would make the acclimation that much less of an issue.