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William
12-11-2008, 06:43 PM
Info on a new study. I feel I know the answer but anything that can make the public accept that they can is good news to me.

Can fish feel pain?

(http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/../news/lib/185)

Wild Turkey
12-11-2008, 06:58 PM
Good idea, hopefully its the first step towards including them in animal cruelty laws like some other countries are doing already.

I also feel like the answer is an obvious one, but i guess its something "joe-shmoe" never really thinks about.

gourami*girl
12-11-2008, 07:17 PM
It is actually a much deeper question than most people realize, much of it centering around the question "what is pain?"

Testing if fish can feel pain is similar to the question of whether a lobster put into a pot of boiling water can feel pain. Because fish (and lobsters) cannot vocalize, or express pain in complex ways, it makes the subject much more difficult to test.

The question would be whether the stimuli actually causes "pain" in fish or whether the stimuli just causes a flight response that is not actually painful. I'll be interested to see what the results are.

Red
12-11-2008, 07:40 PM
Good idea, hopefully its the first step towards including them in animal cruelty laws like some other countries are doing already.

I also feel like the answer is an obvious one, but i guess its something "joe-shmoe" never really thinks about.

agreed 100%
I really hope they can "prove" this to step up laws..

Algenco
12-11-2008, 07:48 PM
the first thing to be stepped up will be to ban fishing

Wild Turkey
12-11-2008, 09:10 PM
the first thing to be stepped up will be to ban fishing

I dunno, i mean cows can for sure feel pain, but the masses still enjoy their burgers.

I think using this info to invoke stricter fishing laws is a gross misuse of information.

Fishing laws should be in place to protect the environment, not the fishes feelings IMO. Of course we care about how fish feel...but they taste good enough to eat. Cows too. I mean, you wouldnt taunt the cow on the way into the factory would you?:hmm3grin2orange: no, of course not, but i will take a bite when he comes out the other side :hmm3grin2orange:

I know i just made some veggie-enemies on that one LOL

Northernguy
12-11-2008, 09:28 PM
I think its a great idea to find out the answer but what kind of stimuli are they talking about.
I also hope it does create a need for Aquarium Cops! At least to keep an eye on the stores large and small.
As for fishing ,there are a lot of very strict laws up here that do a lot to protect the fish and they are well enforced in Ontario.

Nightside_Eclipse
12-11-2008, 09:35 PM
Just what we need... more wasteful inefficient governmental programs to fix complete non-issues...

Lady Hobbs
12-12-2008, 12:30 AM
I figured when my angelfish got burned so badly by the heater and he stayed where he was, he must have felt no pain. Hard to know by their behavior. A cow, on the other hand, will bellow like crazy.

I used to think dropping lobster in boiling water and hearing that noise that they were doing it. Later I hear it is the air being pushed out from under that shell making a squeeking noise.

Mvjnz
12-12-2008, 01:11 AM
I was reading a book by a guy called Dr Karl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Kruszelnicki) the other day. Dunno if you know him in Usa, but he's quite popular here and has written multiple books where he busts common myths and misconceptions. (and I was lucky enough to see him at a book signing thingy last week:)).

But anyway, a chapter in one of his books deals with fish being able to feel pain. I cannot remmeber the exact details of it, but apperently fish have pain receptors in their brain which are nearly identical to the human ones, and when injected with substances which cause pain in various parts of their bodies, they all behaved as if they were in pain. I think he said that there's still the issue of proving that fish have consciousness, because without that all the pain receptors in the world will not make them feel pain, but he concluded that it is very likely that they feel pain, and when euthanising fish after a fishing trip, it should be done quickly and humanely.

Northernguy
12-12-2008, 03:10 AM
I kill any fish I catch as soon as they are in the boat.I don't have a live well!

TowBoater
12-12-2008, 12:54 PM
I use a live well when fishing but it is either a very large one on our boat or on all of our ponds we have the lining of a washer and it sits int he pond and we put them in that. I do think this is a waste of $$ though.

Wild Turkey
12-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Really, the safest way to eat fish you catch is to keep them alive until you freeze them. Dead seafood worries me.

When i was a kid and we didnt have boats and couldnt haul around 5 gallon buckets full of water, we would put fishing line through the gill, and tie it (not tight to the fish) and then tie it to the pier or a half sunken log.

When we got home we cut off the heads (in one clean cut with a clever) and throw them on the ice. They are out of the water for about 2-3 minutes (walking distance from the water)

Looking back, probably not the most humane practice but it is safer than killing the fish and keeping it out of the freezer for a few hours or a day. If you fillet the fish in the field, that may also help as you can store a lot of meat in a cooler that would only fit one live fish or a few dead. Though it wasnt really an option with us as they were channel cats ( what we were keeping ) and you have to skin them and soak the meat in saltwater, its kind of a pain.

Maybe its because ive grown up around crabs, and you dont cook crabs that arent alive because they can make you sick. So you have to pick out the dead ones while you are tossing them into the boiler. Alternatively, fish arent as dangerous, but it does mess with me a little.

I think personal safety and well being overrule fish "pain", but it doesnt mean we didnt make it as easy as we could for the fish with our situation.

I think "do what you can" is a blanket statement that would solve a lot of problems if people took it to heart, as most people on ac do.:1luvu:

Northernguy
12-12-2008, 11:26 PM
Shore lunch or sttaight into a freezer.

smaug
12-12-2008, 11:39 PM
The last thing we need is a so called study such as this.All it will do is create yet another level of beurocracy to deal with .Fish are a very low level form of life and as lady mentioned about her angelfish burning itself obviously feel very little pain.{Ive seen many such incidents myself}.And seriously "aquarium cops"?We the people of the tropical fish hobby should be acting in that position ourselves.Everytime we walk into a fish shop and see fish being kept in inhumane conditions we should be very verbal about it and inform the owners that we will not step foot back in there store until the condition is corrected.We dont need yet another gov agency in place to baby sit us.Nuff said,I have a catfish to whip:14:
Crack,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,bad kitty!!!

kkevvy
12-14-2008, 03:07 PM
What do you mean by "low-level form of life", smaug? Every single organism is important, and there is no "low level" or "useless" life forms. Everything is dependent on something else, which is dependent on something else, etc. That's the ecological, biological, and scientific standpoint. To say something is "low-level" is putting unjust, uneducated, unscientific categorization on an organism.

Just remember, you evolved from those "low level" forms of life.

smaug
12-14-2008, 03:18 PM
No where in my post did I say that fish were unimportant nor did I state thy were useless,but they are a lower form of life and thus far less physically advanced.Please do not put words in my mouth,no one is served by it.It has been looked into before about many different animals reaction to pain stimuli and although I am not a scientist nor am a extremely well read on this subject I am now and have always been very immersed in nature.From my observations and from a majority of the research I have already seen it is very easy for me to conclude that fish feel very little if any thing other then the most basic needs to there survival.
BTW,I did not evolve from a fish.But that is a theological point to argue and one that I am sure you do not want to get into and neither do I.

Sasquatch
12-14-2008, 05:29 PM
I'm with Nightside and Kuli on this one. It's a total waste of money to resolve a semantic question that anyone with an onze of common sense knows the answer too.

Warning ... heavy subject matter laden with sarcasm.

Of course fish feel pain. But because their brains don't have the same structures as a human they somehow are unable to recognize one of the most basic of survival mechanisms.

The reason studies like this are done is because bureaucrats feel the need to justify their decisions. Before a fish can be given the same respect as a rat in the scientific community we need to spend millions in research to prove that it has "feelings" ... and if we find out that they don't ... BONUS! We can treat them like crap and have a clear conscience.

I used to work in a lab that did experiments with fish and leechs. The bureaucrat in charge of animal welfare gave us trouble because we had wooden moulding in the fish room (which would encourage fungal growth and potentially harm the fish ... yeah right!), but couldn't care less how we treated the leechs. We could throw them live into the garbage when we were done with them for all he cared. Why? Because there weren't any guidelines for leechs. So it was ok to let them suffocate to death in a garbage can ...

As a scientists I am continually appaled at the amount of time and money that is wasted in "resolving" pointless semantic questions and similarly useless "research".

Just my little rant ....

gourami*girl
12-14-2008, 10:05 PM
Interesting conversation this has lead to...

I wouldn't say this research is "useless" as others have suggested. Neuroscience is still very poorly understood and this study, in addition to applications in the aquarium and fishery businesses, may help us to better understand how pain is sensed in general.

I don't think it is an obvious or frivolous question of whether fish feel pain or not. Insects and C. elegans (nematodes) can certainly respond to negative stimuli, but nearly all researchers would agree that they do not have enough of an advanced nervous system to feel actual pain.

Essentially, we are all made of the same components and our nervous system is not that different from a fish's. This work could lead to a better understanding of how humans feel pain, and the development of better pain-relieving therapies.

On a seperate note, the term "higher organism" while scientifically correct is misleading. Just because an organism is farther along the evolutionary pathway, doesn't mean they are necessarily more important or better than "lower organisms." Heck, fish have been around far longer than we have, maybe that makes THEM the special ones, lol.

Nightside_Eclipse
12-15-2008, 02:32 PM
We the people of the tropical fish hobby should be acting in that position ourselves.Everytime we walk into a fish shop and see fish being kept in inhumane conditions we should be very verbal about it and inform the owners that we will not step foot back in there store until the condition is corrected.We dont need yet another gov agency in place to baby sit us.Nuff said,I have a catfish to whip:14:
Crack,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,bad kitty!!!

+ freakin' 1 !!!

We need to step up and force fish stores to take care of their fish by voting with our wallets and getting the word out about crappy conditions in their stores and other unethical activitites.

Sasquatch
12-15-2008, 04:40 PM
+ freakin' 1 !!!

We need to step up and force fish stores to take care of their fish by voting with our wallets and getting the word out about crappy conditions in their stores and other unethical activitites.

I totally agree, but there's just one problem.

Find a fish store that doesn't keep bettas in little cups, stock goldfish bowls or sell you a fish without even asking you a question (other than "Anything else?")

For those lucky few that actually have a fish store that would be "ethical", I wholeheartedly encourage you to support them as much as possible, even if it costs more.

But the vast majority of us don't have the option and have very little leverage to actually change the way the fish store operates.

cuttsik
06-21-2010, 02:52 PM
Oh my god don't wanna sound rude but of course they do!!!!!!!!!

Northernguy
06-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Oh my god don't wanna sound rude but of course they do!!!!!!!!!lol

This thread is a couple of years old.lol We do appreciate your comment though.
Welcome to the AC!:22:

Lady Hobbs
06-21-2010, 04:07 PM
Oh my god don't wanna sound rude but of course they do!!!!!!!!!

"Ofcourse they do" is really not much of a scientific study. We may think they do but do we really know that? We rip the hooks out of a fishes mouth without much struggling from them.

You may want to go into options here so we are not responding to threads 2 years old.

Australian natives
06-22-2010, 03:31 AM
well actually we do know that fish feel pain. how they feel it is another story though. i mean they do have a nervous system, and thats what makes pain.

jimw/oscar
06-22-2010, 05:08 AM
There's two aspects of the sensation we call 'pain' among animals. All Animalia have neural nets as definitive of the Kingdom and thus have neural responses to tissue damage, this is the first aspect. The second involves the complexity of the receiver, i.e. the brain. It is demonstrable that fish, being Chordates, experience pain but I am sure they don't suffer as sentient animals do. Fish brains are less developed than those of mammals or birds, the structures simply aren't there to give them the awareness of pain past autonomic responses akin to when we without thinking draw back our hands from a hot stove.

mac
06-22-2010, 05:50 AM
"Ofcourse they do" is really not much of a scientific study. We may think they do but do we really know that? We rip the hooks out of a fishes mouth without much struggling from them.

Well that is odd. You must have some very patient fish. When ever I take a hook out of a trout if I am not holding it tight it jumps around. Same with any salt water fish. If they are not making a fuss then they are either been worn out from the fight when caught, or are running out of air from being out of water to long. That has been proven by science. And from common sense. Hold you breath for 1-2 minuets, which it can take at times to get the odd hook out of a fish's mouth.

Every winter I go fishing for trout, and every one I catch will fight and try to though the hook while fighting with them. So for some reason when they eat either the Fly or Rapala Lures they must just dash around and go silly for fun, jumping running. Must be them trying to play.

If you have ever caught a trout you would know that they grunt at you when they are out of the water. Must be some way of saying I am not hurt. Really what proof do you need. Some large black and white book from some boffin who spends his her whole life with their head in the clouds making the world a confusing place. When just catching fish will prove to you they feel pain.

Some things don't need to be written up in a book by a scientist. Common logic will answer it.

As for your Angle staying in one place. As most people know Angles tend to sulk when something happens around them or they get hurt. So should he be charging around the tank not feeling anything, when in fact he is in shock and in pain, saving energy to heal, so as not to loose his place in his tanks pecking order ect.

Same with any animal. Most days I have to inject the cattle with something trim feet, and we are not to gentle just grab the needle shove it in, 2.5in of it and they jump around most of the time with not a sound. Same with a lot of animals. Doing the cows feet we don't mean to but at times we cut a wee bit do deep and go into the flesh cleaning a infection out. So they obviously feel pain frothing at the mouth, and trying to get their hoof out of your hands. And more so when they are limping.

Same with fish. They are scared hence they are dashing away. Or in some fish's cases like Trout they jump to through the hook. And most times it works. Why do fish like Cod open up their mouth when you are reeling them in, they are trying to go the other direction.

Working on the farm shows you a lot of what animals feel. So dose fishing.

As for another stupid review from like this. It should just be chucked out, as a waste of time.

mac

Wild Turkey
06-23-2010, 04:14 PM
This is not a religious discussion nor are we allowed to have them on this site in public.

Drop it or go to PMs.

Kazenouta
06-23-2010, 11:32 PM
:scry: Is not even the AC safe from political and religious debate? Let's just keep it to what we can all agree on: our love of fishkeeping!

mac
06-23-2010, 11:33 PM
:scry: Is not even the AC safe from political and religious debate? Let's just keep it to what we can all agree on: our love of fishkeeping!

True it is getting way off topic.

mac

jestep
06-24-2010, 12:16 AM
Testing if fish can feel pain is similar to the question of whether a lobster put into a pot of boiling water can feel pain.

On this argument, a lobster is incomparable to any fish. A lobster has no brain and no central nervous system.

Pain to us in meaningless unless our brain can process it. Since a lobster cannot process the signals that we would associate with pain, any reaction that we witness is just a reflex. Just like when you burn your hand, you pull it back far before you feel any pain. That's because pain is something that happens in your brain, and not your peripheral nervous system.

A fish on the other hand, has a brain, and therefore can feel pain, at least physiologically as a human would. I don't think they would process it the same as us, but by what I consider to be a sound argument, they do feel pain.

mac
06-24-2010, 12:48 AM
On this argument, a lobster is incomparable to any fish. A lobster has no brain and no central nervous system.

Pain to us in meaningless unless our brain can process it. Since a lobster cannot process the signals that we would associate with pain, any reaction that we witness is just a reflex. Just like when you burn your hand, you pull it back far before you feel any pain. That's because pain is something that happens in your brain, and not your peripheral nervous system.

A fish on the other hand, has a brain, and therefore can feel pain, at least physiologically as a human would. I don't think they would process it the same as us, but by what I consider to be a sound argument, they do feel pain.


Don't agree with you. A lobster has a brain. Everything has a brain. And thus can feel pain.

If it dose not have the same nevers as us same thoughts or comments in the body of use dose not mean they can't feel.

To me science has a lot to learn before saying that is fact when science is proven wrong all the time.

mac

jestep
06-24-2010, 01:09 AM
But they don't have a brain. They have no central nervous system either. They have a ganglia which controls most of their non-motor functions, but no brain.

Kazenouta
06-24-2010, 01:12 AM
I'm not sure using our drawing our hands back from a flame is a viable analogy. That is a learned behavior. You touch the stove once or twice and you know not to do it again or at least to draw your hand back.

I have to agree, at least partly, with what Mac is saying. Science certainly tells us that fish, humans, dogs, etc. all have the ability to feel pain but what is lacking at this time is the information in regards to how we all feel pain; if it is different, how is it different, etc. Maybe it is the case that the way lobsters react to negative stimuli is simply instinctual reaction for the sake of self-preservation but if that's the case I can't see how that is much different from anything else.

I have to really think that while these creatures probably don't, and note I said probably, experience pain in the same ways we do that certainly feel it. Last summer I went for a few weeks to the Salisbury Beach area in Mass. We brought back some live lobsters and boiled them. When they were placed into the boiling water they tried to back out of it almost immediately. Could it have been just a knee-jerk reaction? Of course. However, it seemed very similar, in my mind, to the way a dog acts when it doesn't want to go some place out of fear and is pulling back on a leash. I guess what I'm getting at in this whole story is that the lobsters seemed to exhibit fear of what was happening to them. In this case the creature feared pain. To me the ability to fear on that level would also indicate the ability to feel pain.

I don't eat lobster anymore.

Wild Turkey
06-24-2010, 01:20 AM
Im not sure how the nervous system of invertebrates compares to a brain, so im speaking purely from experience, but;

Ive boiled a lot of crabs in my lifetime, and they sure dont seem happy about it. As the water gets hotter, they fight and attempt to escape more and more. I think at the very least its fair to say theyre frantic and "uncomfortable".

That said.. ive eaten just as many and never found a brain.

So perhaps there is a lot more to "feeling pain" that has yet to be discovered.

Of course, sometimes other animals feel pain so others can prosper, I think this is the case with the crabs or fish, and this it hasnt stopped me from enjoying either. Cant afford lobster though. :hmm3grin2orange:

Kazenouta
06-24-2010, 01:29 AM
Yeah, Wild Turkey, I hear you! I live near Buffalo and our crustacean/fish supply is terrible, all frozen stuff as we've polluted Lake Erie really badly. I'll tell you what, there are few things I enjoy more than a Maryland crabcake. thumbs2:

As far as lobsters go they're generally at least $20 in this area so getting up to the NE area where they and other delectable seafruits are $6ish is a rare treat indeed.

Back on topic though, it's true that lobster and crabs don't have brains in the sense that mammals and other so-called "higher forms of life" do. I mean this at least in the physiological meaning. Despite this though there are creatures with comparatively tiny brains which are extremely smart animals. A lack in identical physiology doesn't necessarily mean a lack in identical responses but more likely different ways to interpret to the same end.

jimw/oscar
06-24-2010, 01:42 AM
I'm not sure using our drawing our hands back from a flame is a viable analogy. That is a learned behavior. You touch the stove once or twice and you know not to do it again or at least to draw your hand back.

Not true, there's an automomic response to the sudden firing of pain receptors that will cause a limb to jerk even before the brain is aware of it. This is what I was referring to in regards to a fish's visible physical reactions to stimulus we'd assume to be painful. In fish it also depends which part of the body is being stimulated. My stupid oscar laid against the tank heater long enough to burn itself badly, didn't seem to even notice, though the wound was deep. Yet a hook through the mouth will cause a fish to thrash wildly.

Fish as Chordates have fairly complicated neural nets and nervous systems akin to ours (we too are members of that phylum) but their brains are considerably less complex than those of their mammalian or avian Chordate brethren. Their nerves send pain signals but their brains haven't the stuff to feel it as intensely as we mammals (and the birds) do.

Lobsters, like other crustaceans, have only what amounts to a ganglion lump (as Jestep previously pointed out) in their nerves which serves as a 'brain' and I have no qualms about tossing them in boiling water (if as Wild Turkey said I could afford it). As a crustacean specialist on an Animal Planet show once said "they'd sure eat you if they could"

jimw/oscar
06-24-2010, 01:46 AM
So perhaps there is a lot more to "feeling pain" that has yet to be discovered.


no brain no pain :hmm3grin2orange: