Water change...always wanted to ask!

[Lady Hobbs]

I change my water a lot and do 50% at least once, sometimes even twice, a week in my silver dollar tank because it's crowded. grrrr As a result, I am ALWAYS out of dechlorinator and having to drive 20 miles to get more. A pain in the winter months!

I also use more dechlorinator than actually needed........like I remove 30 gallons and add back enough dechlorinator for the whole tank (55 gallons.)

Here I am again today, out of dechlorinator and I need to top off my tanks due to evaporation. Would the dechlorinator still be in the fish water so I can add more water without dechlorinator or does what's in the tank go away?

After all that blabbering the question...........does dechlorinator remain in the water? If not I will have to age a bunch of buckets of water. grrr

[Northernguy]

I age my water in buckets for a week at a time and they still smell like chlorine.I always add more than enough as well.I have used water straight when I was out of dechlorinator but was very uncomfortable doing so.It did not do the fish any harm from what I could see! No red or pink gills and no weird reactions from any of my fish or fry!
I also do 50% once or even twice a week every week!
Lady Hobbs I thought you had access to ro water!

[Lady Hobbs]

No such luck with the RO water. I live in an apartment and doubt management would let me install one even if there was room under my sink for one. I also have to do water changes from both my bathroom and kitchen to reach all my tanks so it would take a whole household RO system.

I read if you drop an airstone in a bucket of water, the chlorinate will be driven off much faster and be gone in 24 hours.

[gunk]

My dad tops off his 55 with straight tap water all the time with no ill effects. He's even done 20-30% water changes without dechlorinated water and I've never seen any issues. I always remind him to use declhorinator but my guess is that as long as you're not changing more than 25% of the water it's not too bad.

Why don't you just buy in bulk over the winter?

[Lady Hobbs]

I just read a letter from a Hagen Representive in another forum.

The jest was this: Generally, you can safety add far more dechlorinator than required without risk to fish and more is required to remove chloramines, anyway. He stated the only case of overdosing was in tanks that people never do water changing and only do top-offs constantly.

That statement tells me that dechlorinator must remain in the water. Right?

Like you, I have topped off before without dechlorinator but it makes me uncomfortable and this question has bugged me for awhile so I thought I'd get the scoop.

[Lady Hobbs]

My dad tops off his 55 with straight tap water all the time with no ill effects. He's even done 20-30% water changes without dechlorinated water and I've never seen any issues. I always remind him to use declhorinator but my guess is that as long as you're not changing more than 25% of the water it's not too bad.

Why don't you just buy in bulk over the winter?

Because this would require common sense and thinking ahead. :14:
And I always seem to be tooooooo broke!

[Northernguy]

Its close to 50 bucks here for about a 1 liter bottle of Aqua plus.
Its a little rediculous but neccesary.They have spiked our water with chlorine for the last 3 months.They say its safe but I can't drink it.
As far as I know it stays in the water,at least some of it.some of it has got to leave the water through evaporation and filtering.
Is there any proof or just opinions?:c2:

[W_Oz]

For the purposes of dechlorinating water, and air stone in a bucket of water will still yield measurable ammounts of Chlorine on some rather reliable colorometers even after a week of sitting and bubbling. We did this experiment at the lab when our RO system went out on us and we needed a method of quickly being able to generate a few hundred gallons of water for our BODs and couldn't use commercial or lab concoctions as dechlorinators because the chemicals in those have an oxygen demand of their own and would have yielded poor results. In the end, there isn't a practical way to have even 100 gallons of water sitting and aging at any given time.

I'll ask the boss about what we used to dechlorinate samples, since I can't recall honestly off the top of my head, and if its toxic or not. Although, while we were doing fish Bioassay we just had a home-made inline carbon filter to scrub the chlorine out of the tap water we were adding to the tanks. Just a thought, but you might consider that? I mean it was just a piece of PVC with threaded ends and barbed fittings with a cotton wad on each end to keep the carbon in place.

[Wild Turkey]

Interesting thread. I agree, the letter leads me to believe that excess dechlor must remain in the water. I do the same thing with my tanks (treat the whole tank when i change) so i also use quite a bit of it.

[saurjusa]

I HAVE to use RO water so I've never dealt with dechlorinator, my tap water is somewere close to liquid rock at about 800ppm hardness so I have no other choice. I know my friend with his big tank allways tops off from the tap without any further treatment and his fish seem to be doing OK, but for the real questions. Does Declor stays on the water or does it fades out... like I said, I've never dealt with it before but I am a chemist so if someone can tell me what is actually in the bottle, maybe I can tell. Another tip is, if you can find an active ingredient, then what is that active ingredient disolved on, if it is water, you can expect the active ingredient to linger in the tank for half the time your best before date or caducity date... minus whatever has been used by the actuall declorinating process...

I'll do a little more research and if I find something I'll post back...

Cheers
saurjusa

[Northernguy]

The ingrediants are not listed the bottle of Aqua-Plus that I use!
It only says that it uses herbal ingrediants for cuts and stress!

[Lady Hobbs]

Here's that letter from Hagen I mentioned to another poster. It gives the ingredient.

Aqua-Plus has been tested in toxicity tests to 100 x overdose without
any problems for the fish, so as far as the accidental overdose scenario
is concerned, there is very little to worry about. When you are dealing
with a hard chemical such as chlorine, there is no known natural
substance grown that would do the job, so basically the active
ingredient to remove chlorine and chloramine is a standard chemical
which has been used for decades by aquarists. I have never heard of any
problems with it. That compound is sodium thiosulphate. There are
others, but this has been found to be the safest and still most reliable
way to eliminate chlorine immediately.

Now, with that said, as an old time pet store operator, there is a case
where a chlorine remover is detrimental to the environment. It is an
extremely isolated case, but since you ask, here goes. When the water
is treated with chloramine, the standard dose is at least twice as much
as for chlorine to break the chlorine-ammonia bond, release the ammonia
and neutralize the chlorine. This was exactly the case in Edmonton,
Alberta in the early 70's where the common strategy of using 4x dose was
historically suggested. This never caused a problem except in one
particular set of circumstances....when an aquarist simply replaces
evaporated water and uses an even more excessive dosage rate (about 10 x standard chlorine recommendation) and never removes and replaces water for a standard water change. In this case, besides the tremendous
problems the building wastes of the tank incur, the sodium thiosulphate
will precipitate in combination with chlorine to the bottom of the tank
and build up concentration. When it reaches a critical concentration,
since all it can do is stay in the tank, the reaction (sodium
thiosulphate reacts with chlorine and forms a precipitate) reverses and
can, under severely neglected conditions seem to release chlorine back
to the tanks. Just one more reason to encourage all aquarists to
properly maintain the tank with standard water replacement rather than
simply filling when evaporation is encountered.

Hope that helps in your arguments about safety. As I said, the above
case is very radical, tanks had to be neglected and overdosed on a very
regular basis for at least a couple of years, so in most cases the fish
will die of neglect and horrendous environment long before the chemical
reaction is allowed to reverse.

Best Regards,

Steve Pond
Rolf C. Hagen Inc.

PS........Thanks W_Oz......sound reasonable to me, too.

[Dave66]

I just read a letter from a Hagen Representive in another forum.

The jest was this: Generally, you can safety add far more dechlorinator than required without risk to fish and more is required to remove chloramines, anyway. He stated the only case of overdosing was in tanks that people never do water changing and only do top-offs constantly.

That statement tells me that dechlorinator must remain in the water. Right?

Like you, I have topped off before without dechlorinator but it makes me uncomfortable and this question has bugged me for awhile so I thought I'd get the scoop.

Hobbsy,
You can order your dechlorinator from one of the major online sites, have it delivered to your door, and not have to drive through the winter wonderland nor buy the gas to do so.

The product breaks the bond between the Chlorine and Ammonia then deactivates both, as the vast majority of public water supplies use both Chlorine and Ammonia bound together as Chloramine, rather than just Chlorine, which is easily outgassed with an running air stone and 24 hours of dwell time. Rather the viable time the dechlorinator continues to break the bond of Chrloramine as one continues to add Chloramine-laden water to the aquarium . . . . I wouldn't chance it. I'd keep my chosen dechlorinator in stock all the time.

Dave

[Northernguy]

Thanks Hobbs!That does help!:19:
Thanks as well Dave!:c3:

[Lady Hobbs]

Nothing like copying and pasting someone elses letter. LOL

Yes, Dave. I do need to do this bit different and be more prepared for these blizzards that are raging this moment! I will just not top off those tanks right now until I can drag myself to the store.

[saurjusa]

There appears to be 2 compounds mostly used, one is Sodium Thiosulfate which you pointed out and the other is Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulfite (as in AmQuel), now, there are several things to take into concideration, they are both solids, specifically white powders, and they both have their own BOD (Biological Oxigen Demand) which means that they both tend to oxidize. I dind't find that much on Sodium Thiosulfate but with the other one, the natural oxidizing process is accelerated with light. This all amounts to the fact that they will both discipate once exposed to light in the water, well, not discipate but actually get used and converted into other compounds that do nothing. On top of that, they both seem to first brake the Chloramine into Chlorine and Ammonia, and then take care of BOTH, this means that what ever is left unused, will react with the natural occuring ammonia produced by your fish.

So the answer actually is: No, it will not stay in the water for very long. If you top off with un-treated tap water in the hopes that your excess dechlor is still there, then water will keep its chlorine!

If you have activated carbon in your filters, there's were the chlorine will end... I don't see it beeing a big issue, just for topping off once in a while...

A warning, talking as a chemist. Treating the entire tank and not the amount of water beeing changed will leave part of the dechlor active just for a little bit, the result beeing it will oxidize, in order to get neutralized, this means it will take oxigen away from the water, oxygen that was supposed to be for your fishies... so keep good aeration if you keep up treating for the full tank amount!!

[MrDrums]

Luckily, I have well-water, so there is no chlorine in the water at all. However, I still use Stress Coat each time I do a water change. I am wondering if this is even necessary anymore? I was never using it as a dechlorinator really - just thought it was helping the fish if they got freaked out during a WC. Maybe I could save myself some $$ here??

[Algenco]

I add 10% tap water all the time with no problems, but my water supply only has low levels of chlorine.
If your water supply isn't using chloramine you can buy sodium thiosulfate cheap

[Northernguy]

Thats all useful information!
Thanks again!

[Algenco]

I need to look up the dosage, but it takes very little, found it.
Treatment of tap water requires between 0.1 grams and 0.3 grams of pentahydrated (crystalline) sodium thiosulfate per 10 liters of water.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[fraggle]

That's good info! From everybody!:19:

I always just put a squirt of the Aqua Plus into the bucket I use to fill the tanks, it says it treats 19L and my bucket is 12L, so I figure there is enough for an extra 7L in each bucket full so after 2 buckets I don't put any in the 3rd bucket, there would be enough there already. The 2L container comes with a pump that dishes out 5ml, that's half the reason that I get the bigger container, don't have to measure, just pump and it's done. the 2L container treats 2000G that's been dosed with Chloramine, or 4000G that just has Chlorine, so it lasts AGES.

Northernguy that sounds expensive for the Aquaplus!!! Here in Australia I can get a 2L for $45!!!! I would have thought that it would be cheaper where you guys are since it's not shipped from one side of the world to the other, LOL. Can you get it online cheaper anywhere?

[Algenco]

Big al's has Prime cheap $29.99 2 ltr

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Lady Hobbs]

northernguy lives in Canada and they have steep prices there.

Saurjusa....great information. And also Algenco. Looks like this thread had everyone doing some research. :) Thanks everyone for your time in sorting this out for me.

I did a little experiment tonight. I moved a tank today and with no dechlorinator have just set it up and let it run with just tap water and the air pump going about 6 hours now. About an hour ago I tossed in a dozen platy fry and they are still swimming around and not done the belly up yet. LOL Not adding my stock tho until I get that dechlorinator.

Total blizzard going on here today so it will have to wait.

[Mvjnz]

If it's just a small top up and you can drink your tap water without getting sick, I wouldn't worry about the dechlorinator. It will all be very diluted. I wouldn't do it regularly, but once in a while when you've run out I would think is fine.

[Red]

If it's just a small top up and you can drink your tap water without getting sick, I wouldn't worry about the dechlorinator. It will all be very diluted. I wouldn't do it regularly, but once in a while when you've run out I would think is fine.

agreed 100%

[jb300m01]

I do between 7-8 gallon water changes weekly in a 75 gallon. I let the water age between cleanings. Can't remember the last time I used dechlorinator! All of my fish are happy & healthy :19: I have city water and I know chlorine is added.

If I do have to add water that was not aged I will add dechlorinator though.

[fraggle]

northernguy lives in Canada and they have steep prices there.

I think that makes it worse! LOL, I'm sure on my bottle is says that's it's made in Canada! That should make it cheaper shouldn't it?

[saurjusa]

I love math!!

Here's some more research:
-It appears that the maximum level at which fish show no measurable harmfull effect is 0.02 mg/L.
-City administration typically targets for 1.5-2.0 mg/L
-With this, for a 55 Gallon (200L) Tank, it means:

200L x 0.02 mg/L = 4mg of chlorine.

At max level of chlorination,
4mg / 2mg/L = 2 L, so you could completely safely add 2 L (I'm sure that will not top it off LOL)

If you're still under heavy snow and the tanks really need re-filling, then you can boil the water. Boiling will immediatelly deplete all the chlorine in the water even if it is chloramine in it! Then you let it cool until it reaches your tank's temperature and put it in... presto!

cheers,
saurjusa

[Lady Hobbs]

cocoa told me once what a 55 gallon kit cost in Canada and seems to me it was around $300. Here is was $158.

Note I said WAS! These stores are supposed to be lowering the prices to help fight this recession and Walmarts raised their fish tanks UP $20.

[Lady Hobbs]

I love math!!

Here's some more research:
-It appears that the maximum level at which fish show no measurable harmfull effect is 0.02 mg/L.
-City administration typically targets for 1.5-2.0 mg/L
-With this, for a 55 Gallon (200L) Tank, it means:

200L x 0.02 mg/L = 4mg of chlorine.

At max level of chlorination,
4mg / 2mg/L = 2 L, so you could completely safely add 2 L (I'm sure that will not top it off LOL)

If you're still under heavy snow and the tanks really need re-filling, then you can boil the water. Boiling will immediatelly deplete all the chlorine in the water even if it is chloramine in it! Then you let it cool until it reaches your tank's temperature and put it in... presto!

cheers,
saurjusa

LOLOL You really like to work the brain, don't you? :c3: I buy whatever dechlorinator there is at the store, with magnifying glass (of course) read the label, and dump in what the directions are. No need for me to have to start thinking NOW? :c3:

Big, Big differences in dechlorinators, tho. Some need far less dosages to treat a 55 gallon. I think Prime is one capful and TetraSafe is 5 capfuls. You have 6 tanks and do two water changes and there goes a bottle already. Those that have the added products, slime guard, etc, take more as more junk is in the bottle. I do like the slime guards/stress coats/etc. but a lot of good it does when you keep running out of the stuff.

SHOPPING SUCKS IN MY TOWN. There is nuttin' honey!

[Northernguy]

LOL Just because its made in Canada doesn't mean we get it for cheaper.That usually means they will sell it to another country and buy it back for more,but that seems to be the Canadian way of business.
Soft wood and oil are another story.
Everything in this town is imported and therefore costs more.
Whatta scam!

[nwnittany]

This is a longshot and maybe a dopey question, but in a pinch like this, would it be better to boil the water first ? In other words, would the boiling and associated turbulence help remove the chlorine, chloramines, and other bad things ? And, would it remove any of the good things (ie, like make the water terribly soft and remove all the buffer) ?

[Lady Hobbs]

Not a dopey question at all and a good idea. If I didn't need about 30 gallons. Wish it would rain and I'd get some rainwater.

[saurjusa]

LOLOL You really like to work the brain, don't you? :c3: I buy whatever dechlorinator there is at the store, with magnifying glass (of course) read the label, and dump in what the directions are. No need for me to have to start thinking NOW? :c3:

...

SHOPPING SUCKS IN MY TOWN. There is nuttin' honey!


I allways need to know why! otherwise I'm not comfortable just doing things b/c it says so in the package! but that's just me! :sbiggrin:

Maybe you should start looking for the pure solid sodium thiosulphate, it might be cheaper and last longer...:14:


]Here ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.) is a technical article I found interesting!

Wish it would rain and I'd get some rainwater. Maybe you should melt some snow LOL...

This is a longshot and maybe a dopey question, but in a pinch like this, would it be better to boil the water first ? In other words, would the boiling and associated turbulence help remove the chlorine, chloramines, and other bad things ? And, would it remove any of the good things (ie, like make the water terribly soft and remove all the buffer) ?Boiling will discipate chlorine, it will disociate chloramine in chlorine and ammonia and disipate chlorine, and it could potentially eliminate some of the hardness but this last part is minimal, I don't see it eliminating the buffer effect unless you keep boiling for a long period of time and you see white particles (Calcium Carbonate) falling to the bottom of the pot. Really for dechlor, you only need to reach boiling, not keep it a long time at it!

Cheers
saurjusa

[Wild Turkey]

Not a dopey question at all and a good idea. If I didn't need about 30 gallons. Wish it would rain and I'd get some rainwater.

That was my next suggestion... we have gotten quite a bit here lately, of course i dont trust my rainwater, but i think you are fine if there is "nuttin" out there hun. ;)

[freshwaterfishlover]

My Bottle of Declorine drops says 1 drop per gallon. I always put 2 drops per gallon.

[Alfcea]

I noticed that some people have suggested the use of "sodium thiosulphate" (Na2S2O3) to dechlorinate the water. I just want to add that, while it is very useful to reduce the chlorine and the hypochlorites forming regular salt, it will not safely neutralize the chloramines. In fact, after reacting with it, ammonia will be released...

Therefore, if the water has been treated with chloramines, the only compound I am aware of that will completely and safely neutralize them without generating harmful ammonia is the "methanal sulfoxylate", also known as "hydroxymethyl sulfinate" [HO-CH2-SO2-]. Most commercially available solutions do contain this compound...

Using untreated water or boiled water should only be used as a last resort, IMHO...

[saurjusa]

Using untreated water or boiled water should only be used as a last resort, IMHO...

Which is today's case as Lady Hobbs is homebound with snow and ice... LOL

[NickFish]

LOL Just because its made in Canada doesn't mean we get it for cheaper.That usually means they will sell it to another country and buy it back for more,but that seems to be the Canadian way of business.
Soft wood and oil are another story.
Everything in this town is imported and therefore costs more.
Whatta scam!

LOL, we have raw materials but not secondary industry.

Harvest it, sell it, and buy it back. Its the Canadian way! As much a part of our heritage as hockey and beavers!

Anywhooo....

I always use about 50% more than recommended.

Boiling doesn't work, it doesn't get rid of chemicals, only bacteria which shouldn't be present anyways.

Letting the water sit doesn't remove ammonia and nitrite. Nor does it add any stress coat.


Hobbsy, buy in bulk!

Like you said, prime is the best. Buy a dozen 1L jugs whenever you go.
If you need any you can borrow some off me if you'll pay the $150 shipping.:c3: I have gallons of the stuff.

As with all the chemical stuff, don't look at me. I would be way too scared to actually recommend anything. If everything drops dead I do not want to be heald accountable. I got a 95% in chemistry. It was canadian chemistry too!
Hey, did you know that if you went to a Canadian high school and you transfer to an American university all your marks go up by 5-10%? Because US school is 5-10% easier than Canadian. That means my overall average could be no less than 99%. Hilarious isn't it? I can get into any American school no problem. Especially considering my community service record.
.....Oops sorry little side-tracked there.

Ok, I'm done, back to the actual discussion!
My vote goes towards buying in bulk, and if you're trapped put a carbon filter in your tank, use brita water, or just wait until you can get some more declorinator. Your fish can skip one water change.

[ERK419]

Its close to 50 bucks here for about a 1 liter bottle of Aqua plus.
Its a little rediculous but neccesary.They have spiked our water with chlorine for the last 3 months.They say its safe but I can't drink it.
As far as I know it stays in the water,at least some of it.some of it has got to leave the water through evaporation and filtering.
Is there any proof or just opinions?:c2:

50 bucks wow! I get mine for 7 bucks. I know a lot of fish keepers who don't use it and they have never had any problems. I for one use it!