Ugfs

[Wild Turkey]

A member pmed me asking for a few reasons why to not use UGFs to show his family, so i figured id just post it, not that there arent a bunch of these threads buried in the archives.



Under gravel filters are a thing of the past in that almost all of the now experienced hobbyists have long since discarded them.

This is due to the fact that under gravel filters don't actually work for "filtration" in the way we refer to it today.

Example:

Years ago it was thought that filters served no purpose except to "filter" the water by taking out bits of debris and fish waste.

Now we know about the nitrogen cycle and that true "filtration" lies here; Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate...our best friends or worst enemies. UGFs actually pull debris down into the gravel, trapping it. This as I'm sure you have deducted is going to be difficult to reach and will rot away. This is going to eventually cause large ammonia spikes, mini cycling your tank and can be deadly to your fish. In a sense it will be like cycling with fish, but it will get worse and worse. It will take quite a while for this to happen if you don't over feed, but will lead to you eventually tearing down the tank and starting over, after lots and lots of frustration.

Leading up to this, all the bacteria thats now growing to aid in the breaking down of the extra ammonia is producing more and more of the nitrogen cycle's final byproduct, which is Nitrate. Nitrate is reason we do weekly water changes, but with the amount of nitrate produced per day going up and up so will the amount of water changes you will need to do to sustain a livable environment for your fish.

These factors have contributed to an almost hobby-wide boycott of these products. A lot of pet stores no longer carry them and the few sales that are made are usually to people who haven't yet discovered how worthless and detrimental they can be, by an employee who also doesnt know or may know and not care.

[Red]

Hey the main problem with them is that if you take off the power head off you got sh** flying all over the places and then i am like running around in circles going "WHAT DO I DO!!!" trust me not worth it. I am lost my RHOM to it because it went nuts.. LOL sorry i have a hate for UGF

[Wild Turkey]

LOL sorry i have a hate for UGF

Lol oh yea im sure its gonna get a lot of those responses, thats what i was hoping for by posting it.

[Northernguy]

Agreed! Old tech,too much work,dangerous to fry,hides too much debris giving bad bacteria a place to grow.I don't like them either.

Very well said WT!

[cocoa_pleco]

yep, UGF suck, just old technology

here the only stores that carry them really anymore are small stores that have unsold stock from the 80's and 90's and petsmart carries a few, all the good stores are packed with canister filters now

[Adrian]

I use to use an undergravel filter. One of the newer models. It worked great for a long time, and I swore by them. I never had problems with mini cycles, or ammonia. Then, since I switched to live plants, I had read that the roots will get tangled in the plates, so I opted to buy an aquaclear 70 for my tank. Ideally, I would love to get a Rena xp 2 for my tank and run my co2 directly into that.....just have to save up money. Have x-mas and a $2500.00 attorney that I have to pay for first......

[Northernguy]

I use to use an undergravel filter. One of the newer models. It worked great for a long time, and I swore by them. I never had problems with mini cycles, or ammonia. Then, since I switched to live plants, I had read that the roots will get tangled in the plates, so I opted to buy an aquaclear 70 for my tank. Ideally, I would love to get a Rena xp 2 for my tank and run my co2 directly into that.....just have to save up money. Have x-mas and a $2500.00 attorney that I have to pay for first......

You'll be all better soon!Take it in stride.

[mac]

Hi,
Yes the person who asked was me.

I my self don't like the UGF.
But the folks love them. I just needed some facts to help them understand the reason I don't like UGFs

So cheers Wild Turkey.

mac

[angelcakes]

thanks turkey its a good read for someone who has a ugf or thinking of getting one,they will now understand that there not a good idea

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

If any of you ever get the chance, look up an article at TFH called In Defense of the Humble UGF it was a really good article and it dealt with all the concerns that have been expressed here about them.

Something that people often forget about UGFs is that they are not always and do not have to be setup, so that the debris is sucked down through the gravel. Reverse Flow UGFs are a very effective method of filtration and not nearly as hard to clean as one might expect. I certainly would not use one in a planted tank due to the root factor. However I believe the UGF has been condemed and tossed aside by many hobbyists unfairly. Yes, it is true that maintaining them is a bit more labor intensive, but that doesn't make it a bad choice and that is the whole key to using a UGF, it must be maintained properly. When properly maintained, the UGF is one of the more effective biofilters.

[Algenco]

If any of you ever get the chance, look up an article at TFH called In Defense of the Humble UGF it was a really good article and it dealt with all the concerns that have been expressed here about them.

Something that people often forget about UGFs is that they are not always and do not have to be setup, so that the debris is sucked down through the gravel. Reverse Flow UGFs are a very effective method of filtration and not nearly as hard to clean as one might expect. I certainly would not use one in a planted tank due to the root factor. However I believe the UGF has been condemed and tossed aside by many hobbyists unfairly. Yes, it is true that maintaining them is a bit more labor intensive, but that doesn't make it a bad choice and that is the whole key to using a UGF, it must be maintained propely. When properly maintained, the UGF is one of the more effective biofilters.


Total agreement!! UGF even in the standard configuration are not the horrible demon most make them out to be.
Whats the difference in a UGF and a canister that hasn't been cleaned for a year?
Any filter is only as good as it's maintanance schedule

[Lady Hobbs]

After a long discussion with Algenco, I also see they can be beneficial and now have changed my old opinion of them. Not with plants and not with sand of course but certainly a good way of filtering a tank with rocks in it to prevent constantly moving them to clean under them and of course with gravel. Until our conversation I was not even aware a pump could reverse flow so there you go. Fishkeeping is a constant learning experience.

[Wild Turkey]

Fishkeeping is a constant learning experience.

A g r e e

"In Defense of the Humble UGF" great name hah! I still dont know if i would recommend them like my petstores do...but this info is definitely making me take a second look at the whole situation. Thanks guys i didnt even know this info existed, like hobbs said.:19:

Great Info

Edit: maybe im too young and have heard the whole "they suck" thing too much in the past to think about even trying them. I know ive thrown away 2 or 3 that ive inherited in the past and didnt even think about it twice. What do you think old man cocoa? lol

[Lady Hobbs]

Me too. I had them in a couple tanks when I first got into this hobby but I kept reading how crummy they were so yanked them out. There was a lot of gunk under them so I remained negative to them. But now that I hear about these reverse flow pumps........hummmm?

Guestion for Algenco or ILuvMyGoldBarb...........If the pumps are reverse flow, you would not have that big stream of water blasting across the tank, right? It would be coming up from the bottom instead? How many powerheads for a 75 gallon? 3?

[Wild Turkey]

Me too.

Ya hobbs youre way too young :c2: does ur mom ur using the pooter?

[Northernguy]

When I had one it was always a headache.I was just never happy with it.
There was accumulations of crap under it.
I had the tank set up on two speakers with a 1/2' glass shelf underneath it.
My problem was being able to see underneath the tank.It was always full of fungus covered debris in certain areas.I had a powerhead on one end and an Ac up top.
I ripped it out so I could keep the tank cleaner.It also stopped all the bacteria blooms I used to get!
I also didn't have the net back then! It may have helped!

[Algenco]

If you had a see thru canister you would be appalled also, I use to have a bunch of them, if you take your python and push it down to the plate it will pull a bunch of the crud out.

Yes Hobbs, there wouldn't be any strong currents.
You don't need huge powerheads, if the flow is low enough bacteria under the plate will consume all the O2 allowing anerobic bacteria to form which eat nitrates.
Cheap,efficient denitrater:hmm3grin2orange:

[cocoa_pleco]

What do you think old man cocoa? lol

lol, you can say that in 50 years

still i kinda dont like UGF's, im just too partial to canister filters

[DragonWatch]

I also had a UGF (run in standard formation...with airstones!!) for years in my little 15 gallon tank...and once I had educated myself about nitrogen cycles and stuff it actually ran hassle free under quite heavy loads for a long, long time.

[Commodore 64]

I
You don't need huge powerheads, if the flow is low enough bacteria under the plate will consume all the O2 allowing anerobic bacteria to form which eat nitrates.
Cheap,efficient denitrater:hmm3grin2orange:

I find this very interesting. That would certainly be a reason to experiment with a UGF. If you could maintain this condition, you could drastically limit your water changes.

Would be sweet to set up a moss only tank, with shrimp, and a RUGF and see if you could get by with no water changes.

[MCHRKiller]

Well I just added a UGF to my 100G tank...the location of the tank(ontop of my dresser) makes it kind of hard to filter with a canister, and since the tank is going to be fairly high bioload I was looking for some extra biofiltration. My tank is 48*20*24...I have about 1.5" of various sizes of gravel...and 2*340gph powerheads. I had some large particle sand in the tank prior and didnt get it all out...the powerheads sucked it up threw the uplift tubes for me. I am very confident that detris wont be staying under these plates, I havent used a UGF for heck probably 10 years. I will need to do regular gravel vacuuming, but I do that anyway. I do however dont feel that a UGF should be used alone...Im running a Penguin 350, AC110 and HOT Magnum on there as well. So if anything the UGF is supplemental, but they do have a purpose in our hobby IMO...that purpose has just changed. For people like myself that have a tank in an odd location thats hard to filter they could be a perfect solution to some extra filtration :)

[Fishguy2727]

I have seen well-maintained RUGFs cause big problems.

Algenco, can you give a good write up about the pros Hobbs referenced.

Yes, any undermaintained filter is just as bad as an UGF, but with any other filter I can undo the problem without effectively breaking down the tank.

I think that for the money there are simply much better filters out there. Maybe if you already have one with everything needed and can't afford anything else right now, that is one thing (even then I wouldn't). But if you are going to the LFS to buy filtration, there are better options that work better and do not reuire the maintenance level an UGF does.

I have found to be a much better substrate anyways (more natural, cleaner, looks better, can feed any sinking food, etc.), and UGFs are not an option with those.

I have never heard of anyone actually having flow low enough to allow for denitrification with an UGF. I think for it to work as a filter it would have to have more flow than would allow for denitrification. Any examples to show it has worked?

[Algenco]

There is a new filtration system being marketed that works on this principle

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Wild Turkey]

Good points from fishguy, especially about the tearing down the tank.

Great link Al, i think im gonna have to read into these...Are they expensive? i didnt see anything on price immediately so im assuming these must cost quite a bit.

[MrJim]

I remember my first tank back in the early 80/s I didn't think UGFs were a good idea~used one of those corner filter jobs with the charcoal & floss and air power:c12: