Newb needs help

[snipesxxx]

Got a 29g tank and got it up and running with a 20-40 gallon tetra filter. I let it run for a couple days before adding fish. I went to the pet shop and the woman there suggested I add 5 feeder fish to cycle the tank. At the time I wasn't sure what she meant so asked what that was and she explained it. Said that way if they die I won't be out much. So I bought 4 instead. Well I get home ant start searching for aquarium cycle and am blown away, I didn't know there was so much to keeping aquariums up. I knew they needed cleaned but thats about it. While searching I find out your suppose to start off with a single fish but since I already bought them I figure I would go ahead with them

All this was a couple weeks ago. Since then 3 have died(within a few days apart), I've done 10-25% water changes every few days along with gravel vacuuming since I got the fish but that didn't seem to help since 3 have died. My biggest mistake was not getting test kits which I am just now learning I needed, which I got coming. I used Stress Coat each water change and fed them every other day

After researching off/on for the past couple weeks I am doing more frequent water changes and the last fish seems to be doing good. But I got some questions.

Is what I'm doing now the right thing?
Should I be doing something different?
The Tetra filter strip is about to show I need a filter change how do I go about doing that to keep things rolling like they should be? The filter has alot of buildup.
I am using a python syphon which is very convenient and makes things easier. When adding water back to the tank whats a safe way of doing it? Is started off adding it directly then adding stress coat and changed to a bucket and adding stress coat in the bucket then pouring in the tank.
What are some other dos and don't s?

sorry for the long post.

[Wild Turkey]

Np about the long post.
Technically what your "supposed" to do is do a cycle without any fish at all. I dont know where you read use one fish, but thats a bad idea even if you planning on cycling with fish, it will take ages to establish a tiny amount of bacteria and ten when you add fish, it will still probably mini-cycle (basically whats happening to you r feeder fish right now)

What i would do is return the last feeder fish, and read up on the the fishless cycle. Buy some ammonia and get started.

If you decide cycling with fish is the way to go, yes you will need a few fish and if you dont want them to to die you need to test ur water and keep the ammonia and nitrIte levels arond or below 1.0. Then they should be O.K. But i never suggest cycling with fish as its somewhat cruel and if nothing else can shorten the lifetime of the fish significantly.

Read the free e-book over there <---- it will answer alot of questions we get asked alot here, the link is also in my sig.

[robnepper]

I agree with Mr. Turkey. It's the right advice.

[snipesxxx]

Different sites I've read have mentioned a single fish to start with. I just now found this site for the forums and I will give that ebook a read. Heh just now reading feeder fish aren't good to start with. Owell I am gonna stick with this single fish and do water changes, test kit should be here anyday. Wish I knew 2 weeks ago what I know now(which is still little). Thx all gonna go read the ebook, BTW does it mention the filter question?

Thx again

[schoolbus]

Hindsight being 20 20, I wish I would have found this site 2 months before I bought my first thermometer.
Water changes:
Beneficial bacteria start to grow in the substrate (gravel) and filter.
When doing water changes during the Nitrogen cycle, if you must deep vacuum the substrate, due to excess food debris etc. Don't vac all the gravel surface area. Do 50-25% with each water change.
Feed your fish sparingly. Don't feed a lot 1 time a day. Feed a little 3 - 6 times a day. No more than they can eat in a minutes time. It will feel like you are starving them, don't worry, your not.
Filter changes:
Turn off your filter before you remove any media.
Change your filters at the same time you do water changes. You can rinse/clean your media in the water you just took out of your tank. This will help preserve any beneficial bacteria in the media.
Most important, take your time. Enjoy. You'll find that learning all this stuff (I know it's coming at you at you fast) is fun.
Walk through this sight. You will find a solution to any ?? you have. Just ask.
A test kit is paramount. You must be able at a minimum, to monitor ammonia and nitrates.

Don

[Wild Turkey]

Read the e-book and fishless cycle sticky before you change the filter media ;)

[Northernguy]

Read the e-book and fishless cycle sticky before you change the filter media ;)
Welcome to the AC!
I agree read those links first.

[MrDrums]

You can cycle with fish no problem, but I think you have the wrong kind of fish....not sure what she gave you in "feeder" fish. I have never tried the fishless cycle but have read about it and talked to mny who have, and it works great. If you decide to cycle with fish, zebra danios are readily available at just about any fish store, and they handle cycles beautifully, especially since you are doing your water changes regularly. And you'd need about 4-5 of them to cycle your tank.

They are not what you'd call feeder fish, and you'd love to keep a small school of danios in your tank as they are fun to watch.

I also would not change a thing in your filter until after your cycle is complete, as this is where most of your beneficial bacteria is growing right now. That gunk in there is going to help your fish survive. The gunkier the better right now.

Read up, be patient, and things will settle down. As far as the Python - it is fine to add water right to your tank, just try to get the temp. about the same - you can do this by feel. You can add your Stress Coat, etc., right before you fill up or right after. Do you have well-water?

[Wild Turkey]

Sorry but there is no "right" fish for cycling really they are all the wrong fish. But, if you are gonna use fish a feeder fish will do just as good of a job as a danio for less cost. The only draw back is possibly the feeder was raised in slightly worse conditions, but its all subjective.

No fish takes a cycle "beautifully". It hurts all fish, even if you cant see the ill effects. Please dont cycle with fish, if it didnt hurt fish the feeders you bought would all still be alive, right? ;)

[gourami*girl]

Just one quick comment,

I saw that you said you were vacuuming your gravel every water change.

1) While your tank is cycling, you should not vacuum the gravel at all. Some of your beneficial bacteria live in the gravel and by disturbing/removing them you are slowing down your cycle.

2) Once your tank is cycled you should start vacuuming the gravel, but not all of it at once (once again you will have some helpful bacteria in the gravel). You could vacuum 25% of your gravel every water change.

[schoolbus]

All My tanks were cycled with fish.
I would not do it that way again.
The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spikes can't be good for the fish. There is no good reason to put fish through that. I've heard that it very possibly shortens their life span.
They may look ok during the cycle but they are not.
I hate to hear LFS employee use the Fraze " throw away fish".
Cycling without fish is the way to go.

[Northernguy]

Fishless cycling is still a reasonably new thing.Tanks have been cycled with fish for a very long time.The trick is test your water daily and do your large water changes as soon as anything starts to peak.Yes it can't be that healthy for the fish but if done right its not that bad and you will not lose any.
just my 2 cents!

[snipesxxx]

Just one quick comment,

I saw that you said you were vacuuming your gravel every water change.

1) While your tank is cycling, you should not vacuum the gravel at all. Some of your beneficial bacteria live in the gravel and by disturbing/removing them you are slowing down your cycle.

2) Once your tank is cycled you should start vacuuming the gravel, but not all of it at once (once again you will have some helpful bacteria in the gravel). You could vacuum 25% of your gravel every water change.

I actually might have worded it wrong. The two weeks I've had the tank I've vacuumed the gravel a total of about 3 times, even then I didn't do it completely at all. I've done several water changes though. If I knew all this before I bought the fish I would have done a fishless cycle, but the damage is now done so I might aswell stick with it. If I take him back to the shop he will probably end up fish food and die anyway.

[MrDrums]

Gotta disagree with you Wild Turkey. I have always cycles with danios, and have always kept my danios. To date, I have never lost one in a cycle. Only time I've lost them has been dure to old age, or by stepping on one when it jumped out of the tank and I didn't see it. Now, it is POSSIBLE that it jumped out because it didn't like the fact I was using it for a cycle, but I doubt it.

And yes, they all handled the cycle beautifully. Now, I can't speak for other fish, as I have never used other fish to cycle a tank. Well, now that I think about it, I did use an Oscar in college....and he got so big I sold him to a friend with a 150 gal. tank. So I guess you could say he handled it beautifully as well.

Personally, I have nothing against fishless cycles, and I am glad people do it, but I'd rather have fish right away, and see no problem with it. Danios are great, hardy, and if they could talk, I bet they'd say they love cycling tanks! (O.K., just kidding there......or AM I?!?!???)

[Wild Turkey]

I think you may have missed the point i was trying to make. Cycling with fish is cruel, hurts the fish. Its an unnatural occurrence that a fish would never be faced with in the wild. And so, cycling with fish is not "beautiful" in any way IMO.

It shortens the lifespan of fish and though i dont scorn those who have hurt fish, i do scorn those that tell people to do it, because now a days, all you have to do is by a culture if you are too lazy(or impatient) for fishless cycling one tank, so you can easily and severely reduce the effects if not eliminate them all together. And i realize some dont have that option available, but it seems you have just refused to use new methods and technology for the benefit of your fish.

Now, i say one tank because once you have one cycled tank you dont need to ever cycle another tank. Seed the filter for the new tank in the old tank. Just the fact that you say...

"I have always cycles with danios, and have always kept my danios. To date, I have never lost one in a cycle. "

Leads me to think you may have put your fish through a cycle when it wasnt even needed at all....

Just because the fish live, doesnt mean it doesnt hurt them and shorten their lives.

If i make you live in a well it wont kill you, but you arent gonna be happy and you arent gonna live as long for sure. The point is, just because it doesnt kill a fish doesnt mean its not bad for the fish, not hurting your fish. For me, thats important. Important enough to do some research and not be lazy about it if it means i can avoid it. I think thats the idea of coming to ac in the first place.

Thats how i feel about cycling with fish, and i think most people would agree with me, though perhaps not as strongly in some cases.

Mistakes are one thing, this is another

[MrDrums]

Scorn away, if you must, but I have never hurt my fish. I had 5 danios in my last tank that lived 7.5 years.....I cycled with them, yes. Now, I believe the average lifespan of zebra danios is around 5 years. Again, this is not scientific, by any means - could be the luck of the draw of course - but it obviously didn't hurt my fish. I would never hurt my fish, by the way.

My latest tank has had danios for about 3 yrs now...no sign of shortened life-span, I must say. And I do know you can "seed" a tank, etc., and have done so myself many times. When I have had to cycle from scratch, I have used danios, and have helped a few others over the years establich their own tanks. Most have used fish, one or two have cycles fishless. Haven't made any mistakes as far as cycling is concerned.

And yes, I have done my research, and plenty of it. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it is a mistake. The reason we are on ac, as you said - for varying opinions, advice...you get to pick and choose. There are lots of things that work well. so far as I have experienced, the fish that I have kept in my time with the hobby have lived up to or far beyond their "expected average lifespan." Except, of course, those unlucky enough to be eaten by my severum.....who, by the way, made it through a cycle unscathed in someone else's tank, and I took him when this person moved. He is doing "beautifully". If I had to guess, I'd say he is 4-5 yrs. old. We'll see how long he lives in a few more years.:c3:

[MrDrums]

I'll add fuel to my own fire again here (or dig my own grave a little deeper) and add that I also use aquarium salt in my tank (always have) - I know I have taken some fair amount of heat for this as well, but it has served me (and my fish) well over the years. (Maybe I shouldn't open THIS can of worms again - setting myself up for a further beat-down). And yes, I have even used it during a cycle. (Here we go........).

I am in no way suggesting to anyone that this is the "proper" practice, don't worry.......

[Wild Turkey]

Im not gonna beat you down. Looks like you already know you are doing something you shouldnt be..

Fish cycles and, salt to keep fish alive in poorer water conditions(thats the idea of it) are both old methods from before we even had proper knowledge of the nitrogen cycle, if you choose to throw that knowledge away, be my guest.

But please dont suggest something you know isnt the best way to a new member just because you refuse to look at the facts please. Thats why i was getting all up in arms, i dont care what you do to ur tanks at home, but when you dont say "im not suggesting this" until the 5th post 3 days later...you are suggesting it. Realize that people come here looking for advice, and so when you tell them your methods, they are gonna assume you are suggesting them unless you say "im not suggesting this." In which case, why even mention it?

Double posting within 5 minutes isnt a good way to get on peoples good side either ;)

[MrDrums]

Wasn't trying to get on your "good side" WT. Also not sure what you were referring to whn you said I'm doing something I "shouldn't be." You just can't argue with good results. If you don't want to accept those results, then that's your business. I have also given successful advice to many people on here. I've also taken advice, as well as ignored advice. To suggest your methods are the only ones that work is a disservice to the forum. I don't care what you do in your own tanks either, and I only hope your fish are as healthy as mine are. If not, then maybe you've learned something new today. (Glad I could help, in fact.) After all, that's whet the forum is for......try to learn new things and take in all the advice (suggestions, if you will) from the hundreds of people that visit the forum, then decide what's best for you.

BTW, I've never heard of adding salt as an aid to fish living with poor water quality. Since my water quality has never been poor, I've never had cause to try it! I might suggest it to others now that I know this, but really you should understand that nothing beats a good quality water change. Almost forgot about that one - almost had to put it in a 2nd post.

Good luck to you in your hobby!

[NickFish]

Ok, lets just pretend something here for a sec.
Lets pretend that fish cycling doesn't hurt fish at all, and that they are perfectly healthy all the way through it.

Even if that were true, fishless cycling would still be infinitely better.

1) Its cheaper. Enough pure ammonia to cycle a 50 gallon tank cost about 25 cents. It would cost at least $30 in fish to do an equivalent cycle.

2) Its easier. Just add ammonia. No daily water changes or algae problems associated with high ammonia(you can leave the lights off the whole time).

3) Its faster. A complete fishless cycle caqn take under 3 weeks, and you can add all your fish at once. A fish cycle takes longer, and it takes more months on top of that to complete the full cycle.

And of course, if we consider the fact that this hurts the fish and can introduces disease-

4) It hurts the fish and can introduce disease.

Enough said about that.....


Drum, here's GB's salt article-
Aquarium Salt:Its Uses and Effects in Freshwater (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=27150)

[Northernguy]

This is an argument that can and probably will continued until the end of time .
How long ago did fishless cycling actually begin?
How long have people been cycling with fish?
Does anyone have scientific proof where experiments have been done to show the difference between the two?
I really am curious.
I do understand that it may be harmful to fish and I understand how you feel about it but people tend to stick with what they know works!
I am really not trying to add fuel to the fire but I have lost more fish adding them to a healthy tank than I ever lost cycling.
Is there any actual scientific proof of the difference.
I am not looking for an argument,please don't take this the wrong way?

[Wild Turkey]

Relax, go read some articles. You'll see.
The point here is it DOES hurt the fish, and i dont want to hurt my fish or tell members to hurt theirs.

Like nick said "lets pretend" we wouldnt have to pretend if it were true drum. You seem really hardheaded and i hope that soon you will accept that the way to do things in the 80s is not the right way, and most likely in another 20 years, we will have even better methods and this method may be the scolded one.

If you refuse to change, the world changes around you. Info changes very fast in this hobby.


Thanks nick


Im sure i could do such an experiment, (sorry didnt see ur post before ng) im just not going to as i know that Ammonia kills fish....and Nitrite kills fish...thats all the proof i need to know not to try it. That may be subjective to some, but to me thats more than enough proof. Dont worry NG, i know you arent trying to instigate anything ;)

[Sharon]

Hang on now...I agree that fishless cycling is easier, with less stress on the fish and the fish owner. I don't think anyone is saying that Ammonia or Nitrites is not harmful. If cycling with fish, I assume you would be doing necessary maintenance to keep fish comfortable, I have cycled two tanks with fish, and found no problems...but you have to be experienced enough to understand the water chemistry, and do the necessary work...

[Northernguy]

I really am just curious to know if it has been tried.I am no scientist and I do plan on trying fishless cycling the next time around.
I was just hoping that if there was proof and it was posted here it would help all to understand what actually happens.

[Wild Turkey]

Honestly in that case NG sounds like a good experiment for you.

I just wanna say i agree with sharon here. If you test everyday during the cycle you can make it a lot less stressful for the fish. I will say though that is doesnt mean it is "stress-free" and the whole reason im up in arms here is the user suggested fish cycling, and thats it. IMO its a bad thing to tell someone whos a beginner, for the reason that sharon mentioned, and for confusions sake.

I have no doubt that 100% of the active members can achieve a cycle without killing fish (still hurts the fish IMO, unless you keep the levels so low that it will take ages to cycle, or wont at all). But we're talking about recommending it to beginners over fishless cycling. Thats what im disagreeing with.

Im also sure that 99% of those members would choose fishless over fish cycle if its available to them.

Glad i could bring this thread back to life! lol

[MrDrums]

(sigh) sorry you don't agree WT. If your way works for you, then great, I'm happy for the health of your fish. Not sure where the "hardheaded" comment comes from though - again, sorry you see it that way. Sharon has a great point, by the way.

I value the opinions and suggestions on the forum as much as anyone. I know that I have given good, sound advice to more than a few people new to the hobby. I have also followed some advice and suggestions, and I have discarded some as well. That's what the forum is for. A difference of opinion does not mean one is wrong and one is right.

As northernguy said, this debate can go on until the end of time. Bottom line: find and use the advise, suggestions, research, etc. that works for you. There is such a wealth of it on here, none of it "bad" or "wrong" IMO. If that's "hardheaded" then so be it.

[NickFish]

I know you're trying to end this conversation drums, but I just have to say this.

I really am just curious to know if it has been tried.I am no scientist and I do plan on trying fishless cycling the next time around.
I was just hoping that if there was proof and it was posted here it would help all to understand what actually happens.

Ammonia is toxic. Putting fish in ammonia is bad for them. What other proof would make this clearer? Put the same ammonia on your skin and it will eventually burn down to the bone. You don't want something like that in large quantities in the same water your fish live in.

[CAllain]

Just thought I'd mention silent cycling - I found it funny there's been no mention of it so far.

If you do want to cycle with fish but also reduce the stress to them, the best way I know of to do it is to first plant the tank fairly well with some fast growing plants. Then, start off with a small amount of fish and add slowly.

The idea of this is the plants will use the excess ammonia and nitrites that the bacteria hasn't been able to take care of.

I personally prefer not to put fish through the unnecessary stress of a cycle, but if you have to do it, you may as well use plants as well (provided you have suitable lighting)

[MrDrums]

I never said ammonia isn't toxic. I have never "put my fish in ammonia". I have not harmed my fish in any way (not counting the stepping on and subsequent crushing of one fish...didn't see him, and the workboot was too much for him...), and so far as I know, I have not "shortened the lifespan" of any of my fish by cycling a tank with them, as was stated. I understand there are other ways to cycle and am not oppsed to anyone using them. Whatever works, that's great. I have never had any problems using fish to cycle my tanks, and neither have hundreds of other people, for that matter. If and when I am asked for advice, I give the advice I know best, but always suggest doing research as well (this forum, in fact).

The key is a good water change schedule - which you need to keep to even after the tank is cycled. Perhaps that is more important than anything else, and something missed in this discussion. Excellent water quality is the key to a healthy, happy tank IMO.

However, I have never had a planted tank in all my years in the hobby. The suggestion of using fast growing plants is a great one - one I'd like to try at some point. I know absolutely nothing about planted aqauriums, and would love to learn more.

Well, speaking of water changes, it is time for one now.

[Wild Turkey]

ammonia builds up in a tank during the establishment of the cycle .25+ is "toxic". Most people consider 1.0+ dangerous. Thats what nick is talking about and yes you are subjecting fish to ammonia if you cycle with them.

I would say the key to keeping ur fish stress down during a fish cycle would not be "a waterchange schedule" it would be testing everyday, and then changing the appropriate amount of water.

[bushwhacker]

This is an argument that can and probably will continued until the end of time .
How long ago did fishless cycling actually begin?
How long have people been cycling with fish?
Does anyone have scientific proof where experiments have been done to show the difference between the two?
I really am curious.
I do understand that it may be harmful to fish and I understand how you feel about it but people tend to stick with what they know works!
I am really not trying to add fuel to the fire but I have lost more fish adding them to a healthy tank than I ever lost cycling.
Is there any actual scientific proof of the difference.
I am not looking for an argument,please don't take this the wrong way?

i still havent seen an answer to these questions.

[Wild Turkey]

i still havent seen an answer to these questions.

i saw a few solutions.

"Ammonia is toxic." - true

my answer: hurt and dead fish have been the result of fishless cycling in other cases much more often than not if just left. Enough times for me to not try it, even though this may not be "proof" per-say. Like i said if someone else wants to do that experiment, go for it but im gonna pass.

[NickFish]

You keep saying Drum, that if you change enough water it doesn't hurt the fish.

I agree, that this is partly true. Or at least, it doesn't kill the fish or shorten their lifespan a ton. It sure is stressful though...

But what I'm saying, is what's the point! Why do you want to change the water every other day, when all you really need to do is add a couple drops of ammonia here and there and change the water at the end of the month. Its soooooo much easier, it is beyond me as to why anyone would do a fish cycle. Like I said, even if we pretend it doesn't hurt the fish, fishless cycling is still much easier.


Silent cycling takes forever. The key with silent cycling, is to go VERY slowly. It can take months and months to fully stock a silent cycled tank. Not to mention all the algae you can get if you aren't keeping up with your macros during all this.


This is an argument that can and probably will continued until the end of time .
How long ago did fishless cycling actually begin?
Its always been there. For at least 50 years people have been doing it this way. Only recently has it really taken off.
How long have people been cycling with fish?
Thousands of years, but that doesn't make it right. I can go on and on about all the things we used to do that have recently been proven incorrect.
Does anyone have scientific proof where experiments have been done to show the difference between the two?
I don't know of any, and I'm not willing to kill my fish to prove a point. Ammonia=bad. That's all there is too it.
I really am curious.
I do understand that it may be harmful to fish and I understand how you feel about it but people tend to stick with what they know works!
I am really not trying to add fuel to the fire but I have lost more fish adding them to a healthy tank than I ever lost cycling.
Maybe not, but they were definitely stressed.
Is there any actual scientific proof of the difference.
Look at the label on a bottle of ammonia. See the little picture of the skull? There's your proof.:c2:
I am not looking for an argument,please don't take this the wrong way?
Answers in red.

[mac]

Hi MRDrums ,

After reading all these interesting post [Which I have learned a great amount of Information from] I thought I would make a few comments.

I agree whole heartily with what Nik and Wild Turkey are saying about a fish cycle. I for one think that there is a better way to cycle a tank, than using fish. Why not do it with a silent cycle, or as already suggested with pure Ammonia. That way you lessen stress on fish, and get the job done quicker and safer. And there is no way around it Ammonia fish. There is no way to say it dose not. And that it dose not hurt the fish in tank, with proper care, like water changes. The only way to make to help not hurt the fish is to keep testing the water daily and change water when required.

But as for suggesting a Newbi to do a Fish Cycle is stupid. Some might get it right, but others don't quite get what to do. And they tend to and will end-up with a hard time in keeping fish, because of one simple and inappropriate peace of advice at the wrong time.

Even with a a proper water change schedule, you are not helping eliminate the problem. In a way you can be making it worse as well. The best thing to do is as already mentioned to test your water very regularly, and change water when needed, to keep things in proper proportions.

So IMO before posting such hard to understand posts like this to a Newbie, it would be better to take into consideration, what the new person's experience. That way you will not have a newbie running of doing the cycle wrong and stuffing up his fish.

For instance my local pet shop said to cycle the tank with Corys, for 3 days then you can get what ever you want. Well all the Corys where very dead after one day. And the plants even died. I later found out while setting up a new tank that it was Ammonia and Nitrite and Nitrate in very high dosages that killed the fish. And this is a common mistake I hear all the time. Newbies say they where told to do this. And yes it was true. But they did not fully understand what was going on, and what to do. That is why I have to say please be careful when suggesting fish cycles like this to a Newbie.

mac

[Northernguy]

Never once did I tell anyone to cycle with fish!
I just wanted some answers to questions.

[Wild Turkey]

Never once did I tell anyone to cycle with fish!
I just wanted some answers to questions.

Yup, not that ive seen :)
I think Ng is a great example here, he doesnt stand on the traditional side of this argument, per-say, but he doesnt recommend it either because hes responsible. thats my exact point, thanks for bringing it up NG, i didnt want to be the first to use you as an example lol!

[MrDrums]

Well, as far as the water changes go, I never said I changed the water every day or every other day, for that matter. I just meant stress the importance of keeping to a good schedule of WC to keep your tank healthy. What that schedule is depends on the tank, fish, etc. For me, it is 30% or so every 7-14 days. I don't test my water much at all these days - only the ph, just because I was curious as to where it was (well-water). When I have tested it, I have never gotten any ammonia readings.

Mac, I am careful about what I suggest to those new in the hobby. I don't feel I have ever led anyone astray. I love the hobby as much as anyone here, and I have learned a great deal from others. If anyone were to ask me about fishless cycling, I would certainly lead them here, as there are more than a few experts on the subject here.

There are different options for cycling a tank, no doubt. Which is the "right" way? People on the forum offer their advice and experience, and you either follow it or go another direction. There are tons of articles on cycling and other subjects, some of which I agree with and some I don't. I encourage those new to the hobby to read such articles, like anyone else would. "Ammonia = bad" isn't a new thing. I have never, ever "killed my fish to prove a point". Come on, that's just silly. If that happens, then you really are doing something wrong.

[mac]

Well, as far as the water changes go, I never said I changed the water every day or every other day, for that matter. I just meant stress the importance of keeping to a good schedule of WC to keep your tank healthy. What that schedule is depends on the tank, fish, etc. For me, it is 30% or so every 7-14 days. I don't test my water much at all these days - only the ph, just because I was curious as to where it was (well-water). When I have tested it, I have never gotten any ammonia readings.

Well in the beginning stages of a fish cycled tank you will have to do very regular test with the water parameters. And consequently the same with the water changes.


Mac, I am careful about what I suggest to those new in the hobby. I don't feel I have ever led anyone astray. I love the hobby as much as anyone here, and I have learned a great deal from others. If anyone were to ask me about fishless cycling, I would certainly lead them here, as there are more than a few experts on the subject here.

Yes you might have not lead any one astray, but to watch that you my self and other don't do it. That is why we are saying that fish cycling is not a great plan. That is why we are saying it is better to not recommend it to any-one, unless they know what to do and under-stand that they are hurting the fish. I like you love keeping fish, I am about to be come a breeder, and like you I would not want to lead any-one astray with wrong ways of setting up a fish tank. That is why Both WT and Nik are trying to say is that cycling your tank with fish is wrong, and can be looked on as morally wrong by some people. But with leading members astray it can be easy to do. That is why I am say to watch what you I and other's post and correct them where possible.


There are different options for cycling a tank, no doubt. Which is the "right" way?


There is quite a few different ways to cycle a tank. And some are good while others are not as good. For instance a Silent Cycle is much better than a Fish Cycle. For one, when you do add fish the plants will help to keep the toxic waste's toxicity down, helping to not stress the fish. While a Fish Cycle will have the fish stressed, if not properly looked after. And for a lot of people who don't have time to watch their fish tanks, meaning testing them, it is practical and useful to do a Silent Cycle or a Fish Less Cycle. Because then you have a few things covered. One you aren't going to hurt the fish as much. Second it is quicker and cheaper.


mac

[Wild Turkey]

Just wanna remind everyone
4th type: Bacteria culture
5th type: filter seeding

every type of cycle is better than fish cycle in my opinion. Its true they all have their pluses and whatnot, but fish cycling has that one major drawback, hurting the fish more than any other type..so why use it? You can always apply water changes to a silent cycle or bacteria cultured cycle...so why not just shell out the 10 or 20 extra bucks to not hurt your fish? Or the extra few weeks?(filter seeding/fishless) Its worth it, thats all im saying here.:19:

[mac]

Just wanna remind everyone
4th type: Bacteria culture
5th type: filter seeding

Yes these two are very good for starting a cycle in the tank. Thanks for adding these two. I forgot them both.:19:



every type of cycle is better than fish cycle in my opinion./[QUOTE]

Very right true and correct.

[QUOTE]Its true they all have their pluses and whatnot, but fish cycling has that one major drawback, hurting the fish more than any other type..so why use it?

That is a question I would like to hear a answer for. I think the reason most people use it because it is to them the quickest way to get fish in their tank.


You can always apply water changes to a silent cycle or bacteria cultured cycle...so why not just shell out the 10 or 20 extra bucks to not hurt your fish?

Quite agree. IMO there is nothing like helping making a fish life heathy and happy. I would spend 10 times that amount if I new it would help make my fish happy.


Or the extra few weeks?(filter seeding/fishless) Its worth it, thats all im saying here.:19:

What is a few extra days or weeks, in the long run when the fish will be healthy. So as WT has said that ends the subject for me as well.

Hope this helps every-one who reads this thread.

mac

[NickFish]

Which is the "right" way? People on the forum offer their advice and experience, and you either follow it or go another direction.

You're the only active member I know of that recommends fish cycling.....but anyways......

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Friedrich Nietzsche

There is no "right" way. There never is a right way.
There is a better way to suggest to beginners instead of confusing them, but there is no single completely right way. I agree on that.
However, in this situation, there is a much better way than the traditional fish cycle.


I can't see why anyone would ever do a fish cycle. Its beyond me why you would create more work for yourself and hurt your fish at the same time.

Drums, answer this.

Why do a fish cycle?
Why?

You only do one because that is what you've always done and you say it doesn't hurt fish too much. But why recommend it for others? Have you ever even tried a fishless cycle? Not only does a fishless cycle not hurt fish at all, but it is faster, cheaper and easier. In this day and age you would be crazy to do a fish cycle.


I expect you to answer this to support your side of the arguement-
Why is fish cycling better than fishless?

Name one thing that fish cycling has over fishless cycling. I've given you my 4 reasons to the opposite, give me yours.

Saying that it is best because you have always done it doesn't work for me. Back it up.

[Sharon]

Are you guys still at it....express an opinion and leave it...everybody has one!:ezpi_wink1:

[NickFish]

Are you guys still at it....express an opinion and leave it...everybody has one!:ezpi_wink1:
We aren't just expressing an opinion, we are trying to give a new fish keeper advice.

How this first tank goes decides how he/she will look at fish for the rest of thier lives, or at least for a very long time.

Its one thing to inconvience yourself and hurt your own fish, but we shouldn't be telling a new member to take the most difficult path.

Sure, that is what some of you do, but it doesn't mean it is what we should be recommending to brand new fish keepers.

[Wild Turkey]

We aren't just expressing an opinion, we are trying to give a new fish keeper advice.

How this first tank goes decides how he/she will look at fish for the rest of thier lives, or at least for a very long time.

Its one thing to inconvience yourself and hurt your own fish, but we shouldn't be telling a new member to take the most difficult path.

Sure, that is what some of you do, but it doesn't mean it is what we should be recommending to brand new fish keepers.

I agree, this is more important than just an arugument or expressing an opinion.

Its about keeping new members from taking a giant step backwards just because it seems easier.

[Northernguy]

I kinda feel bad for the member that started this thread because he has fish in his tank and this is mostly about fishless cycling.I hope he isn't stuck between the two.Its kinda hard to add ammonia when a fish is waiting to drink it.I understand that one is better than the other but when one is started you kinda have to continue .Most fish stores do not take fish back.Every store I have been too in the last 5 months has never heard of it either.All we can do is help him to keep the fish he has now!

[Wild Turkey]

Sorry ng, Drums suggested he go buy MORE fish to try to cycle with fish again. Hes only got 1 feeder left.

"you are using the wrong fish go back and buy zebra danios" thats why we all crapped ourselves. lol

[Red]

I dont mind fish cycle... I dont find it so "bad"... I use a goldfish that i have had for a long time to cycle tanks... I saved him from a feeder tank so it was be eaten or cycle fish tanks....

[Northernguy]

LOL Feel sorry for Snipexxx! He is the one asking for help.
I understand the difference between the two.Its the stores that do not suggest it.I know some stores are perfect but they are few and very far between!

[Wild Turkey]

I dont mind fish cycle... I dont find it so "bad"... I use a goldfish that i have had for a long time to cycle tanks... I saved him from a feeder tank so it was be eaten or cycle fish tanks....

we talked about this too, lol sorry red, but i mean we know you can most likley handle something like that no problem...recommending it to nerwbs is another story. And we're saying it hurts the fish the most.

I dont blame you for not reading those three pages of insanely long responses lol

Gotta disagree with you on that one NG, he just got a boat load of points and more words out of members than most get in 5 posts. Lucky if you ask me! :thumb:LOL mornin bud

[Red]

Oh sorry Turk
I am sorry for being lazy... To be honest it is a lot more easier for me to to do it this way... But then again when he is not doing his duty he is in a 55 tank by himself chilling with a pleco... But i do think it is easier for beg. to do fishless.

[NickFish]

Feeder goldfish are even worse than danios.

They already have disease, and being kept in these bad conditions just create more disease.

Sometimes the parasites find their way into the gravel and your other fish get them.

[Red]

Yeah..... but put him in the hospital tank when i first got him (cycled it with him) and i knew him was ok. But i am not here to argue on what i do is right or wrong... I just think for me it is easier.. But for beg. it is easier to do fishless..

[MrDrums]

WT - sorry you crapped yourself. Try to contain it. But I suggest you read my original post very carefully, as I believe you seriously misquoted me. I did not tell him to "go back and buy zebra danios" - go on...read it and see. I think I told him that feeder fish were not great fish to cycle with, and offered a suggestion of another kind of fish. I think you'll find that I also suggested he read and do some research about cycling.....go ahead, scroll back and read it for yourself when you're out of the bathroom.

Nick - what proof have you offered that cycling with fish is worse than fishless cycling? None that I see. I defy anyone to tell me that I have harmed my fish in any way whatsoever. You can never prove that, yet I can show you all the proof of healthy, happy, thriving fish. Are you telling me that the only way to cycle a tank is a fishless cycle?? That's laughable. Someone even posted on this thread they could find no scientific evidence that one method is better than another. It is another way, sure, but not the only way. The fish were not harmed in any way, nor did I have the intent to harm them, and there was no "extra work" involved.

I can successfully bring a new person through a fish cycle as easily as you can through a fishless cycle. I don't believe I have given anyone inaccurate information, only information that some of you don't like. If you don't like it, don't use it, but that does not mean it is wrong. As for me never trying one....well, I have never had to try one. Only have one tank here, never had more than one running at the same time...when I have been between tanks, it has usually been a long period of time...several months. Maybe I'll have the chance to try one someday, but why mess with success? Happy fishkeeping.

[schoolbus]

My note book is getting full.
The original question was: what do I do now?
First tank, not second or third. First.
I wonder how many folks find this or any other site, prior to setting up their first tank? From the threads I've seen, most are waist deep before they post.
My first tank I cycled with Neons. Ugly . Don't ever want to see anyone go through that.
You go to the LFS, and they say use these until your tank cycles and then flush them and get what you want. I cannot and will not, ever buy into that way of thinking!
I do have an emotional attachment to my fish, I would not keep them if I didn't. My Dogs get hamburger twice a day. My fish are no differant (don't feed them hamburger).
Northernguy, on a different thread talked about using cycled media, to cycle a new tank (instant cycle), if I misquoted sorry, that's what I took home from the thread. 2nd, 3rd tank. Not first.
I used his advice and my 29g cycled in 1 week (still keeping a close eye on chems). Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate 10ppm.
The difficult part for Me is, how to get this info out to the new fish keeper.
There is just no reason, that any 1st tank should cycle with fish. 2nd, 3rd... cycle Your tanks the way I'm sure most of You do, with little harm to the fish.
I roger the fact that I'm new. Just had to throw this out there.

Don

[mac]

WT - sorry you crapped yourself. Try to contain it.

Well this has turned into a real messy conversation.:19: :19: :19:
No offense Wild Turkey.


But I suggest you read my original post very carefully, as I believe you seriously misquoted me.

Now here is the original post by MrDrums.


You can cycle with fish no problem, but I think you have the wrong kind of fish....not sure what she gave you in "feeder" fish. I have never tried the fishless cycle but have read about it and talked to mny who have, and it works great. If you decide to cycle with fish, zebra danios are readily available at just about any fish store, and they handle cycles beautifully, especially since you are doing your water changes regularly. And you'd need about 4-5 of them to cycle your tank.

They are not what you'd call feeder fish, and you'd love to keep a small school of danios in your tank as they are fun to watch.

I also would not change a thing in your filter until after your cycle is complete, as this is where most of your beneficial bacteria is growing right now. That gunk in there is going to help your fish survive. The gunkier the better right now.

Read up, be patient, and things will settle down. As far as the Python - it is fine to add water right to your tank, just try to get the temp. about the same - you can do this by feel. You can add your Stress Coat, etc., right before you fill up or right after. Do you have well-water?




I did not tell him to "go back and buy zebra danios" - go on...read it and see.

Here is the part about the Danois.

If you decide to cycle with fish, zebra danios are readily available at just about any fish store, and they handle cycles beautifully, especially since you are doing your water changes regularly. And you'd need about 4-5 of them to cycle your tank.

I for one can easily see how some people like me can take this as a option to go and get fish like this. Plus you would have to go back to the shop to get the Danois, to place them in the tank. So he has option but to "go back and buy them." That is if he takes your advice.


I think I told him that feeder fish were not great fish to cycle with, and offered a suggestion of another kind of fish.



You can cycle with fish no problem, but I think you have the wrong kind of fish....not sure what she gave you in "feeder" fish.

Yes did say about the wrong kind of fish. Then it goes on to a question about What she gave you in"Feeder".

So I don't know quite how to answer this. I see there is no problem with your reply. But I do agree Feeder fish are a Big NO NO NO, for tanks.



I think you'll find that I also suggested he read and do some research about cycling.....go ahead, scroll back and read it for yourself when you're out of the bathroom.

Yes quite right you did say that. But I don't see any reason to say this.


go ahead, scroll back and read it for yourself when you're out of the bathroom.

But as for things settling down. No chance I can see. He has only one fish in the tank suppling food for the bacteria. That fish will also die because of the toxic waste, that is suspended in the water. Ao for one he will need more fish to keep the cycle going, only then can the thing settle down after more pain is inflicted on the fish.


Nick - what proof have you offered that cycling with fish is worse than fishless cycling?

Plenty I can see. Just read back through the post.

As for one I can easily give some prof.. When we keep fish in a tank it is kind of like hand cuffing some Down to a table. They can't go any-where. They are stuck, just the same as the fish. Now lets just take this to a good logical point. When a fish is used for cycling a tank. it has to suffer extremes, in water conditions while the bacteria get on top of things.
So now we have extremes. So now back to the hand cuffed person. Let's poor pure Ammonia on his hands. What will happen. For one there will be some load noises of rage and pain. Well it is the same as the fish. Just they can't say a thing do anything but swim around in this toxic waste which is in the tank. Then when a water change is done, happily for the fish things settle down for it for a VERY SHORT TIME. Then it happens again, and again till finally the Cycle is finished. Now for most fish like Tetras Rainbow fish Loaches Corys Rasboras,Gouramis, Danois, Barbs, Discus, Cichlids, this is to much for them. But the main reason the Zebra Danois worked for you is that they are a very tuff fish which recover from past injury or bad water quality quickly. That is the simple reason your fish where fine. And IMo the reason they lived a good long age is you must have kept pretty good water quality after there cycle. Hows that for some prof and answers. If you can't understand what all of us are trying to say then there must be a problem some where.

{QUOTE]None that I see.[/QUOTE]

That is a poor excuse. There are plenty of answers offered all over this thread. Just look and you will find them.



I defy anyone to tell me that I have harmed my fish in any way whatsoever.

Yes you have harmed your fish when cycling your tank with them. We are not talking about after the cycle. But while Cycling.


You can never prove that, yet I can show you all the proof of healthy, happy, thriving fish.

OHHH really. We already have proven the fact. It is plain and simple.
And as for prof you say in your sig you have a Pleco. What type? If it is a Common or most other type of Pleco your tank is to small for them. So you can have healthy happy fish if you have a 54 gallon Corner tank with a fish like this. Plus to add to this a corner tank has not got the same amount of space as a conventional rectangle tank. But as for the rest of your fish, you have problems as well. Geophagus Heckelii need a bigger tank than a 54 gallon. A 75+++ gallon is better. The Danois need a larger school. But more than likely these will get eaten by the Cichlids you have. So again more unhappy fish. The Bosemani Rainbow needs to be in a large school. and are not god tank mates for Cichlids. So again more un-happy fish. The Debauwi catfish like to be in a bigger school, with less aggressive fish. So again more un-happy fish. To sum up what I have written. I do defy what you say on the pretense that you don't have compatible fish in compatible environments.
So please before you say you will defy some one look at your sig and check you stocking list out.


Are you telling me that the only way to cycle a tank is a fishless cycle??

Yes, but you forgot one thing you can use fish in a Silent Cycle. But not to many fish at a time.


That's laughable.

Hahahah. Very funny. I think you don't want to acknowledge that there are better ways to cycle a tank, with out hurting your fish.


Someone even posted on this thread they could find no scientific evidence that one method is better than another

Prove that. Quote the post where it says that. I can't find it.


It is another way, sure, but not the only way.

Yes there are other ways. But the way you suggested is a cruel hard painful way.


The fish were not harmed in any way, nor did I have the intent to harm them, and there was no "extra work" involved.

Ohhh really. Any person who understand Ammonia will know that even in water it will hurt things with life. So that is stupid. How about you try and have a shower in Ammonia. And if it is not dangerous nothing should happen right?????????????????????????????.



I can successfully bring a new person through a fish cycle as easily as you can through a fishless cycle.

So can any one of us. But it dose not mean you can put a fish through pain. It is cruel. And there are better ways of doing it. And cheaper ways for bringers.

mac

[mac]

Part two.


I don't believe I have given anyone inaccurate information, only information that some of you don't like.

Quite right the information is perfect and very well presented. But we are all crapping our selves because there is a better system to cycle a tank, with out hurting fish. And it is not we don't like the information. We are trying to help you understand that what you are doing is bad for the fish. And also we are writing this for new members to read. So they can understand that their is a better way to do things.


If you don't like it, don't use it, but that does not mean it is wrong.

Yes we don't like it. And we don't want you to tell new members of a way to hurt their fish. And it is wrong.


As for me never trying one....well, I have never had to try one.

Then before you keep on attaching members who have done it many time, you should do it your-self and find out how good other methods are.



Only have one tank here, never had more than one running at the same time...when I have been between tanks, it has usually been a long period of time...several months.

I have 10 tanks in total. Plus a Library tank. So I know there is a lot of work involved. Out all these tanks I have 5 set up. The rest are waiting for stand. But all of them have been set up with Fish Less Cycles. And I never lost any fish.


{QUOTE]Maybe I'll have the chance to try one someday, but why mess with success? Happy fishkeeping.[/QUOTE]

You have had success. And many have success doing this. But it dose not make it a right way to do it. But new people who have never kept fish before find it hard to do a fish cycle with out killing fish. I know I have done it. But after practice I use to be able to do it with out loosing fish. but they where never the same afterwards.

So I end my argument for now.

mac

[NickFish]

Holy geezes Mac! Nice one.

And drums, you still aren't answering my question.

Throughout this thread I have provided plenty of proof. "Healthy" fish isn't a proof, or really, fish that weren't instantly killed isn't a proof. For all you know, your fish could be twice as healthy doing a fishless cycle. What works for you isn't a proof of concept.


Are you saying that ammonia isn't toxic?

Because I have hundreds of employees at the poison control center that would say otherwise.

READ THE LABEL on a bottle of pure ammonia. See the little picture of a skull? It may seem cute but that means the content of the bottle is harmful. That is the same stuff that is in your fish tank. I can't make it any simpler than that.

And no, I'm not saying that fishless cycling is the only way. If you read my last post you would know that. I am saying fishless cycling is the best way for a beginner to cycle their tank.

[Wild Turkey]

Holy **** mac. LOL:19: :19: :19: :19:

Exactly. Ammonia is a bad for fish. No ammonia touches the fish ever during a fishless cycle. End of story....

Unless like Nick said you want to debate whether or not ammonia is toxic....in which case i suggest you drink some and then let us know how it goes.

(Just in case you didnt catch the sarcasm, please dont try that. You will die.)

[NickFish]

Drum, I really don't think you are reading any of our posts.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again, and can't give any proof as to why you are saying this.

And you are ignoring our proof. Do you only hear what you want to or you just don't have enough respect for us to spend your time reading what we have written?

[schoolbus]

Snipesxxx, hasn't posted in awhile, anyone notice? Hope He's not intimidated by all this.
Sx, if You are still visiting this thread, LOL, the info put out here is great.
Just try to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Don

[mac]

Hi,
I again agree with both Nik and Wild Turkey.

Ammonia is a poison, and dangerous touch. What would it be like to a fish when they have to swim in it??????????

mac

[MrDrums]

Re: the whole evidence thing....see Nick's post of 11/22.

Re: ammonia - I don't think I ever said it was harmless. Didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a harmful substance. I have a cousin who, many years ago as a toddler, swallowed a small amount.....she is in her 30s now, lucky to have survived, with many operations on her esophagus in between.

Re: fish, etc. - The pleco I have is a rescue from a friend's tank (he moved). I don't really know what kind he is - not much of a pleco fan here - but he is about 4 yrs. old and about 4.5 inches in length. If he gets too big, I'll remove him, but my 54 gal. will be a 92 (corner) by Christmas - just ordered this weekend, so that should cover the space issues you mentioned. Not sure what will become of the 54 just yet. The heckelii now is about 4.5 inches as well and grows a bit more slowly than the severum, which is fully grown. The 92 should allow him to grow out fully and be comfortable.

As for the Debauwis - you are right, they like large schools - I've been told 15-20 is best, and as I love these fish I'll most likely increase the school size. Someone I know had a single Debauwi for 6 years before he knew what kind he had, then added more. They do just fine with the cichlids. The rainbows as well. The one bosemani I have now is a hold-over from a species tank. I'll most likely add a few more. Although it is not common, rainbows and cichlids can indeed be kept together. The geo and keyhole are not aggressive at all. I had to watch the severum, but he has never shown any aggression at all toward the rainbows, and the rainbows are a beautiful color compliment to the cichlids. They swim at a different water level, too. So, if the 92 isn't big enough for those fish, I'll adjust accordingly, but I think they'll be fine, at least for a while. The danio is the last of an old school....he is very old, probably near the end of his lifespan, and I probably won't get more in this tank. Now if is possible the severum will get him, but only time will tell. I don't think there are any problems with compatability here, though it surely is not a species or biotope (?) tank setup.

As for cycling this tank? Well, I'll be using my existing substrate, decorations, and adding the filter of this tank at first, so that should help, and I'll probably use fish, because I'll have to, and I have no doubt they will do just fine. You may not agree, but they will.

Re: sarcastic remarks: I apologize, WT and other forum members - I got on too much of a roll, and yes, I am stubborn. I respect the opinions and advice of everyone on this forum - the best aquarium forum I have come across to date. I'll leave it at that.

[Wild Turkey]

Just a word of advice "IMO" is my favorite phrase on this site. Apology accepted of course

[mac]

Hi,
IMO I would get the biggest tank you can. Like a 100+++ gallon if possible.

That way your Cichlids will have plenty more room to swim in.

As for the way you are going to Cycle your tank I see no problem. The reason is you are using pre cycled material, water filter gravel ect. That way you have pre establish bacteria, lessening the impact on the fish.


With that I draw rest to my writing on this subject.

mac

[NickFish]

I'm done too.

Lets just leave it at that.

[snipesxxx]

well according to these test strips ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are all reading zero. That mean the tank is cycled?

using these:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4345+4494&pcatid=4494

[Wild Turkey]

No, that does not mean ur tank is cycled, Tap water tests all zeros too. (usually)
Test everyday, and when u see the A go up, then down, then NI go up, then down, and NA go up finally, after all that has happened if you get 0/0/0 its cycled. But unless you have alot of plants it should read more like 0/0/10-20

How old are the tests you are using? Most people also dont use strip tests as they can be unreliable. I would grab some tube test kits soon if possible.

[Northernguy]

No, that does not mean ur tank is cycled, Tap water tests all zeros too. (usually)
Test everyday, and when u see the A go up, then down, then NI go up, then down, and NA go up finally, after all that has happened if you get 0/0/0 its cycled. But unless you have alot of plants it should read more like 0/0/10-20

How old are the tests you are using? Most people also dont use strip tests as they can be unreliable. I would grab some tube test kits soon if possible.

Also get a liquid test kit when you can.They tend to be more accurate!

[Wild Turkey]

Also get a liquid test kit when you can.They tend to be more accurate!


Hehe edited it in b4 i saw ur post *blows tips of finger*:c2:

[snipesxxx]

wow I wonder how long this is gonna take, tank has been up for 3-4 weeks and the filter is nasty and according to the tetra strip is needs changed.

[Wild Turkey]

wow I wonder how long this is gonna take, tank has been up for 3-4 weeks and the filter is nasty and according to the tetra strip is needs changed.
DO NOT change the filter. You will start over

Whats in the tank right this second? After that many weeks you should have seen at least ammonia build up by now. If you still only have the one feeder fish, that could be why. He isnt producing enough ammonia to start the cycle. Its almost good news. Find someone to take the feeder of ur hands, and then do a fishless cycle.

If you had started a fishless 3-4 weeks ago, you would most likely be done by now. Still think fish cycling is better? (lol j/k)

[snipesxxx]

lol like I said if I knew then what I know now I would have never bought the fish and done a fishless cycle. I can't give it away unless I give it back to the pet shop which I'm not sure they will take it back. If they wouldn't I'd either have to turn him loose in the lake or flush him lol. I might just take him to the lake, at least there he would have a fighting chance if the cool water doesn't get him.

BTW Test strips show a date of march 2010.

[Wild Turkey]

lol like I said if I knew then what I know now I would have never bought the fish and done a fishless cycle. I can't give it away unless I give it back to the pet shop which I'm not sure they will take it back. If they wouldn't I'd either have to turn him loose in the lake or flush him lol. I might just take him to the lake, at least there he would have a fighting chance if the cool water doesn't get him.

BTW Test strips show a date of march 2010.

NO, NO NO lol sorry but ether of those things are not acceptable. Releasing in ponds is how we get snakeheads...and that whole type of mess. And flushing is a horrible death. Honestly, even using him as bait is less cruel, but i wouldnt do that either cuz theres a chance he could end up in the lake.

The petstore should take it back, its a feeder. If they dont take it back raise hell about it. Otherwise, put up an add on some local sites or ask around at the petshop and find someone who uses feeders, then give him/her a present.
You may just make a new friend.
Do not flush fish.
Do not release fish into a pond or stream or any other local body of water.

Killing the fish via tank water + freezer is a much better option than either of those if the petstore wont take him. Though thats a last resort of course, but after all, it is a feeder and a worse fate probably awaited him if bought by another customer.

[snipesxxx]

thx for the info I'll give them a call, BTW how would releasing a goldfish in a lake cause snakeheads?

[Wild Turkey]

thx for the info I'll give them a call, BTW how would releasing a goldfish in a lake cause snakeheads?

LOL no no, releasing snakeheads, causes snakeheads to be in places they shouldnt be, and they cause big environmental problems. This can happen from releasing anything but most people use snakeheads as an example because its a quite well known one by now.

[snipesxxx]

lol ic ic, well I am gonna see about getting rid of this guy and starting a fishless cycle. I was wanting something other than a goldfish anyway.

[Wild Turkey]

lol ic ic, well I am gonna see about getting rid of this guy and starting a fishless cycle. I was wanting something other than a goldfish anyway.

Good luck:19: and if you have any other Q's id start a new thread, you will get more answers that way.