View Full Version : Glofish right?
Do you think Glofish are right? Do you have a problem with it or think it is just supporting dyed fish??
Well i think it is fine, but me myself personally think it isnt that bad... The problem i have with it is that they are "copyrighted" and have to pay the company for every fish you buy. You shouldnt have a copy right on a animal..
Keep it civil, but i am looking forward to debating :)
gourami*girl
11-14-2008, 06:07 PM
Do you think Glofish are right? Do you have a problem with it or think it is just supporting dyed fish??
Well i think it is fine, but me myself personally think it isnt that bad... The problem i have with it is that they are "copyrighted" and have to pay the company for every fish you buy. You shouldnt have a copy right on a animal..
Keep it civil, but i am looking forward to debating :)
Good idea for a thread, Red!
I don't think I would have glofish in a tank at home. Personally they just look too unnatural in my opinion, but I don't think my feelings should stop anyone else from keeping them.
When it comes down to it, the method of making the fish glow is completely humane, and they were originally developed for research uses. Might be pretty cool to have a tank of them in a science classroom to teach kids about genetic modification and pollution research.
As far as copyrighting an organism goes, that is a bigger debate than you realize. Technically it is legal to copyright any tissue lower than a full human body and any organism other than humans. I understand that it protects the scientists who put so much time and energy into the organism, but depending on the situation, it is at best questionable.
Alfcea
11-14-2008, 06:11 PM
Interesting question....
Yes. I believe it is OK to house them. My understanding is that most of the fish that are in the market right now are just the offspring of fish that were genetically modified in the past. My take on it is that they are not guilty and they are healthy. I do not think they are more susceptible to disease or anything just because of the gene that was implanted into them. They would most probably not survive in the wild (because of their bright colour, which would make them more prone to become someone's dinner) but they can survive and thrive in people's aquaria.
The fact is that they are already here and they deserve a good life. If I can provide them with such, I will (and in fact, I do).
Or this is how I see this issue...
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 06:26 PM
Though Gm fish are a far cry from dyed fish, for these reasons i still dont support the purchasing or popularity of these fish.
1. They havent been around long enough to know all the effects GMing the fish has. They could turn into jellyfish over the next hundred years....no one knows.
2. So close to dyed fish, the vast majority of people do not realize the difference between Gm fish and dyed fish. So if they see Gm fish in my tank, and then go looking for fish of those colors, chances are they may end up with dyed fish in their tank, and it would be my fault. I like sleeping well at night
3. I feel that putting your foot down on selling modified fish is important, and if we stood together and did just that we could pass some laws on dying fish, and then we wouldnt have to worry about #2 happening, making dyed fish popular because we like Gm fish and ppl dont realize the difference..
The fact is if we start to go, "this modified fish is okay, but this one is not." soon the market will be so flooded with modified fish it will be hard to tell whats gm and whats dyed, and thus....what to support and what not to.
Just my personal take on the whole thing, i wont feel any different about my buds on here if i found out they keep them. Im just stating why i choose not to, and dont recommend it.
EDIT If you dont want people to still do it, you need to stop buying though. Its not like they are already out there and need good homes, they're making new ones right now, cuz right now someone is buying some.
Sasquatch
11-14-2008, 07:17 PM
First of all let's get a few things staight.
1. There is a huge difference between hybrids and GM fish. Hybrids are a natural occurence when two closely related species interact. In the fish world, they're very common, a few examples being platy x swordtail crosses, tiger musky (northern pike x musky) and hybrid stripped bass (very common in supermarkets).
Genetically modified fish are a whole other ball game. In the case of glo fish, genes producing fluorescent proteins from jellyfish were inserted into the fishes genetic code. This is something that would not happen in nature and should not be compared to hydridizing.
2. There is a lot of ignorance around genetically modified organisms. The is are a lot of science fiction-esk beleifs that these fish will morph into something weird or totally screw up ecosystems if they get free. With regards to glofish, these fears are largely unfounded.
Glofish will not morph into anything. They have 1 gene that produces 1 protein which happens to come from jellyfish. This makes them glow when exposed to black light ... and that's it. If they get loose in the environment the worst that is likely to happen is a case of indigestion on the part of the fish that caught an easy meal.
I'm emphasising this point to separate it from the questions around GM plants in agriculture. It's a totally different situation. The fish aren't as wide spread (and never will be), the fluorescent protein is not toxic and is not released into the environment in an uncontrolled fashion.
3. When it comes to encouraging dyed fish, I am in support of glofish. Simply put, there is a demand for extravagantly colored fish. If there wasn't, fish suppliers would not undertake the efforts to dye the fish, the large fish losses that accompany it and the extra cost involved in doing it.
Acknowledging that there is a demand, we can do two things about it? Make everyone feel guilty about buying fish that have been traumatized ... or provide an alternative that does not harm the fish. Following the addage that you get more bees with honey than with vinegar, glofish are an attractive solution to both reducing the harm done to fish and providing the public with what they need.
If you're worried about people mistaking glofish and dyed fish, the best solution is education. Teach them the diffences, make the aware of the situation and let them make the decision. I beleive that most people wouldn't buy dyed fish if they new what they had gone through. As to wether or not they'd buy glofish ... let them make an informed choice.
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 07:25 PM
I agree with 99% of that. The point is most people refuse to become educated enough to even cycle their tanks in this hobby, and until that changes those people are not going to know the difference. Thats the point im trying to make here.
However, saying that gm fish will turn into sea monsters is just as unfounded as saying "there are no adverse effects whatsoever" because we simply dont know yet, that was the point of saying they might turn into jellyfish.
It seems the only thing we are disagreeing on is the solution to the problem. I would love for education to be the answer but until everyone wants to become educated on the topic, i just dont think it is that simple.
Fishalicious
11-14-2008, 07:35 PM
Hybrids, dyed or genetically modified fish are personally not an option for myself... although it is impossible to copy nature in the small environment we house them in I strive to keep everything as natural and pure as possible.
When I had two Apisto's crossbreeding I removed the eggs for this reason... if they had met in the wild and had produced a new strain of apistogramma that is fine but their breeding in the tank was possibly due to one not having a mate at the time whch would not so quickly happen in nature.
I like to think that we try and keep our fish strong and healthy and am worried of the effects and health problems any kind of modification or hybridization of two species can create.
I just don't really see the point or the market for them... a serious aquarist will not I believe purchase bright neon glowing pink fish but rather your everyday person with no fish experience who pops into a store see's them and being quite a gimmick start the hobby on the wrong foot.
These are just my opinions.... I don't feel that strongly about it that I will march up and down the street with billboards shouting about (except in the case of dyed & tattoed fish)
Each to their own....
Sasquatch
11-14-2008, 08:54 PM
I agree that educating people can be really hard. That's why I support the presence of glofish in the aquarium hobby, you don't have the educate everyone, just give them a better alternative.
As for the demand ... nobody buys drab ugly fish. I beleive that it was Dave66 that called the neon "an atomic bomb in the aquarium industry". This was because, at the time, people could not imagine such a colorful fish. Since then, we've perfected techniques for shipping and breeding fish and your average LFS has fish from all over the world, each one more colorful and interesting than the next. Glofish are just the next step.
I should add that I wouldn't buy glofish. I like natural looking fish, to the point where I don't particularly like bettas ... too frilly.
OscarFan
11-14-2008, 08:58 PM
I dont think its bad now that they are able to breed. But I dont like them being copyrighted either.
Northernguy
11-14-2008, 09:10 PM
I own dyed fishI bought them unaware that they were dyed.I thought they were some kind of albino black skirt tetra.Had I have known I would not have bought them,although they don't look that bad.
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I do not like dyed or tatooed fish,especially the swimming billboards.
Demi ^_^
11-14-2008, 09:23 PM
Any fish that has been dyed or has been genetically altered in some way, will not be in any of my aquariums. My feelings are that if fish are desined to look how they look, why change them. Dying makes them look unnatural and funny, not to mention all the health problems!
Glofish are not technically dyed, but they are still genetically altered to glow flourescent, which in my eyes is not right. I think that if another person is set on acquiring some, its their choice. But for myself, I will never buy a fish that has been altered in some way.
Why can't we just leave the fish, natural and beautiful? Glofish too me, look way too unnatural, their different colours make their schooling look odd to me. I rather a nice large shoal of Neons or Rasboras :))
Dyed fish--big time no way, I won't even shop in a store that sells them.
Genetically modified? Sure, no problem with me.
Worse than dyed fish.
Genetically modified organisms are extremely hazardous to the environment.
The company that markets them ASSURES the public and their customers that the fish undergo a process that makes them unable to breed, but there's already reports of people unintentionally breeding them.
And guess what? If you DO breed them, accidentally or not, you are producing a PATENTED ORGANISM. You are breaking the law and the company can sue you, even though it's their fault for allowing fertile specimens to leave their farm.
There are already serious problems with genetically modified corn, soy, cotton...
Genetically modified organisms are hazardous waste. This is not my opinion. It is a fact. The more research I do into GMOs, the more frightening it becomes. The companies producing these organisms are reckless, foolish, unscrupulous, and sometimes completely evil.
Does anyone here know what Monsanto did to poor farmers in india with their GM cotton?
Do not support products like Glofish. The company that makes them is either lying about the fish being unable to breed, or they are stupid, or they simply don't care.
Very, very strong statements. You do realize of course that the vast majority of meats sold in the U.S. are genetically modified via selective breeding, yes? Many poultry farmers are also genetically manipulating their stock to produce more meat in fewer animals.
Very, very strong statements. You do realize of course that the vast majority of meats sold in the U.S. are genetically modified via selective breeding, yes? Many poultry farmers are also genetically manipulating their stock to produce more meat in fewer animals.
Yes.
Almost all of the soy in north america is now technically GM because so many normal crops were cross-contaminated.
Also, next time you buy a tomato, remember that in the US, GMO food is not required to be labeled as such.
It would be silly to label it anyway. The earth has already been irreparably contaminated and damaged by GMOs.
A good number of scientists are of the opinion that GM crops are partly responsible for colony collapse disorder among honeybees, but are being shouted down by the rest of the scientific community.
Sad.
Also, selective breeding is very different from the kind of genetic modifications we are talking about.
You can't get a cockroach gene into a tomato through selective breeding.
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 10:33 PM
Very, very strong statements. You do realize of course that the vast majority of meats sold in the U.S. are genetically modified via selective breeding, yes? Many poultry farmers are also genetically manipulating their stock to produce more meat in fewer animals.
I was about to say something to that effect but you beat me to it gm. We also shoot chickens and cows with hormones that make them grow faster...BUT scientists are already beginning to establish a link between that and the unusually early development of adolescent teens.
However the grain cant exactly escape into your waterway. And the cows like you said are modified through selective breeding, personally i dont find much of a difference in the two methods, BUT, people arent letting their cows out to breed with the "natural" cows of which there really are none anymore on this side of the planet unless you count bison. (but then again you can already buy beefalo meat; cows + buffalo hybrid)
With fish however, this could and already is shaping up to be a potential problem.
It all kinda goes back to what sasquatch said about education, the fact is educated people dont dump or flush fish....but unfortunately for now people do it on occasion because they are ignorant or just plain dont care. And we all know what kind of problems that can cause with a species that is foreign...i wonder what it will be like when the next crop of Gm fish comes out...
Here is some interesting information I just got done reading...
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Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 10:39 PM
Good read gm,
I dont wanna relate the crops and cows to fish too much because the fish actually stand a chance of uncontrollably propagating and causing serious damage. Crops and cows dont so much. After all its much easier to hide in the sea than a field, which is where both crops and cows will be found :laugh1blue:
For people who have problems with GM foods, i respect that but i think its important to realize the difference here.
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Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 10:54 PM
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Kinda odd that this video cuts out at "But what do scientists think about it?..." is there a second part?
Kinda odd that this video cuts out at "But what do scientists think about it?..." is there a second part?
that's part one of ten
oh wait, that's the wrong documentary..
the one i meant to post is about monsanto's GM cotton
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 11:00 PM
oh wait, that's the wrong documentary..
the one i meant to post is about monsanto's GM cotton
Lol i was gonna say that one was ten minutes...1/10 are u serious?
Lol i was gonna say that one was ten minutes...1/10 are u serious?
that's only 100 minutes
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 11:10 PM
Sorry Levi my limit for educational videos is an hour, im not in school anymore hehe:19:
I want to make something really clear.
Selective breeding and gene-splicing are VERY VERY different.
One process only uses genetic material that is already in the organism, and does so with natural processes. (like pollination) The result is simply a plant or animal with genes from two strains of the same species. This could happen naturally anyway; all the farmer or rancher is doing is being more selective about it.
Genetically engineered organisms can have DNA from anything inserted into them, with varying results. This is completely impossible in nature.
Genetic material from one species has no way to combine with genes from another species, unless they are from very similar organisms, like horses and donkeys.
Genes from a naked mole rat aren't going to end up in a cucumber through natural processes.
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 11:23 PM
No arguments there. All i mean is they are man messing with nature, and similar in that way. Species A didnt find Species B in the wild before we put them together, if they did perhaps neither species would exist in the wild and we would only have Species AB instead. (of course in the case of horses and donkeys nature is fighting back so to speak since mules are sterile :) )
selective breeding is not interspecies...
it's just taking two different bean plants or whatever and pollinating one with the other.
that happens all the time in nature.
a baby is a combination of the genes of it's parents, but that hardly makes it genetically engineered.
GMOs are a whole different ball of wax...................
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 11:36 PM
People make mules all the time how isnt that selective breeding? You selected the two to breed in order to make something different about the offspring..
I realize what you are talking about though, (short with tall/small tail with long tail etc) I just think the two can both be considered "selective breeding" is all.
Great discussion, folks. Thank you both for keeping it calm and educating. Great job to both of you!
People make mules all the time how isnt that selective breeding? You selected the two to breed in order to make something different about the offspring..
I realize what you are talking about though, (short with tall/small tail with long tail etc) I just think the two can both be considered "selective breeding" is all.
Yeah, but breeding a tomato with a tomato is very very different than injecting genetic material from a cockroach into a tomato.
Wild Turkey
11-14-2008, 11:52 PM
More like breeding a lion and a tiger but yea i see your point. I will just say i dont agree with either when the product is able to breed and has a good chance of getting out on its own (fish)
Glofish are not a crossbreed, they are chimera. They have genes from coral and jellyfish inserted into them, there's not really any breeding involved.
Wild Turkey
11-15-2008, 12:08 AM
Sorry, "any"
I dont think anyone who would buy a dyed fish really cares about if it dyed or not. Thats a big generalization but in the most part its true..
I dont think anyone who would buy a dyed fish really cares about if it dyed or not. Thats a big generalization but in the most part its true..
Not true if the buyer doesn't understand what process is involved to provide the result.
gourami*girl
11-15-2008, 02:36 PM
I dont think anyone who would buy a dyed fish really cares about if it dyed or not. Thats a big generalization but in the most part its true..
I'll have to disagree with this. There are so many colorful varieties of fish available for hobbiests now, that I wouldn't say it's completely obvious that this colorful fish is injected with dye while this one is not. Beyond that, even if people know they are dyed, they don't necessarily know how the process happens or that it is detrimental to the fish.
Northernguy
11-15-2008, 02:42 PM
A lot of lfs that carry some dyed fish do not order them from what I understand.The fish are simply added to their order.Thats what I am told.
The stores apparently get them without actually ordering them.Can anyone support this.
Nickfish you work in an lfs,whats up?
Wild Turkey
11-15-2008, 02:57 PM
A lot of lfs that carry some dyed fish do not order them from what I understand.The fish are simply added to their order.Thats what I am told.
The stores apparently get them without actually ordering them.Can anyone support this.
Nickfish you work in an lfs,whats up?
Sounds like he lied to try to keep a customer, thats the biggest load ive ever heard. If i order 20 monkeys and u send 20 monkeys and a gorilla, you are in trouble. Lol
In my experiences, most of the lfs that sell dyed fish cant even tell me where they got them....but that doesnt change the fact that ive never gotten any fish for free in the mail, have you? Of course not, no one does. Hes full of it and is trying to "have his cake and eat it too" so to speak IMO.
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