Newbie needs help

[amn]

Hi there,

Set up a brand new 45 gallon about 2 weeks ago, let it run for about 5 days, then added 3 fish (tri color shark, hap venusis, kennyl). Then a weeka later added 4 more of the same kind. Then 2 days later the fist shark died and had white dots all over it. I cleaned out about 12% of the water and added an anti-ich & bateria remover. Now the haps seem to just sit in the top corner of the tank almost gasping at the surface.
Am I doing something wrong? Help.
Thank you

[Lady Hobbs]

Your tank was not cycled and your fish most likely died due to ammonia poisioning. Please read the article in Announcments to "Tips for Newbies".

You started out right with only a couple of fish but added more before the tank had time to get a cycle going. You need to do several water changes to keep the ammonia down and will need a test kit for this. This is all mentioned in the article I mentioned.

Welcome to AC.

[Abbeys_Mom]

Your tank didn't get a chance to cycle properly. You should read the e-book available on this site.
Don't add anymore fish to your tank. IF you can, take them back to the store and get them to hold them for you, till your tank is straightened out.
Get a test kit that does PH, ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites, so you can monitor your cycle.
Hope this helps :)

[amn]

Thank you for your response.
When the fish didn't look very healthy (before the water change), I did a test and everything was perfect (PH, hardness, nitrates, nitrites), so???
This is tougher than I thought!

[Glasstapper]

what were your actual readings for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH? A new tank won't have "perfect" water parameters without a cycle.

A fishy cycle will take a lot longer than two weeks. What test kit are you using? This also may be giving you false results.

[minabird]

amn-

Your tank will be completely cycled when your ammonia and nitrite levels read 0. If you haven't had the chance to read the e-book or the articles hobbs, abbeys_mom, and glasstapper suggested, in short, cycling is the process where the bacteria that consume the toxins produced by your fish's waste and uneaten decaying food are growing. 2 types of bacteria are growing during this process. The first group of bacteria breaks down ammonia, which is very toxic to your fish, into nitrite. The next group of bacteria breaks down the nitrite, which is also very toxic but less than ammonia, into nitrate. Nitrate is also toxic to fish but is removed when you do water changes; it is also used as a nutrient by live plants. These bacteria will continue to grow until they consume all of the ammonia and nitrite. This process usually takes up to 4-6 weeks, but can take longer. As I said earlier, this process will be complete when your ammonia and nitrite readings = 0. Here are a couple of links from about.com with charts that show what to do when your ammonia and nitrite levels are rising during this process.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Ammonia Test Chart [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Nitrite Test Chart [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I like using these charts because you can track your readings and it gives you instructions on what to do when your readings start becoming toxic to your fish.

With the 6 fish you have remaining, I wouldn't add anymore fish until after your tank finishes cycling. Take daily readings of your ammonia and nitrite levels and perform the water changes as directed by the above charts when your readings are at toxic levels. Your ammonia will spike, or has already spiked. This will be followed by a spike in your nitrite readings and a lowering of your ammonia; this will show you that the 1st set of bacteria are growing and converting the ammonia. This will be followed by a reduction in your nitrite readings and an increase in your nitrate readings, indicating the 2nd group of bacteria are growing.

Just be patient during this process. It'll get easier after your tank cycles. Then it's just a weekly routine of changing your water and other tank maintnenace.

Good luck with your new tank.

[amn]

Thanks man, this is all awesome info! I think I rushed everything.

I did put conditioner & bacteria control in the tank right when I started. Then I tested with "quick dip". Ammonia was safe (around.25), nitrate was 0, nitrite between 0 and 0.5, hardness was hard, alkalinity was between 120 & 180, ph around 7.5.

Now the fish are all right at the surface, looking like they are feeding but there is nothing there??? They are popping their heads almost out of the water???

[minabird]

Thanks man, this is all awesome info! I think I rushed everything.

I did put conditioner & bacteria control in the tank right when I started. Then I tested with "quick dip". Ammonia was safe (around.25), nitrate was 0, nitrite between 0 and 0.5, hardness was hard, alkalinity was between 120 & 180, ph around 7.5.

Now the fish are all right at the surface, looking like they are feeding but there is nothing there??? They are popping their heads almost out of the water???

This is normally a sign of either ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Here are a couple links on this:
ammonia poisoning [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
nitrite poisoning [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Since your nitrite reading is not very accurate, between 0 and 0.5, I'd err on the high side and say that your fish are suffering of nitrite poisoning. Do a 50% water change immediately and take another reading for ammonia and nitrite. If either are still in the unsafe range of the respective chart, do another water change as prescribed on the chart until both readings are in the white area.

Are you using the all-in-one master test strips for your water testing? If so, please consider switching to the test kits that do not use the test strips. The test kits most people use are the ones that use drop reagants instead of the strips; they are far more accurate than the strips. I used to use the Mardell Master test strips. I switched and found my readings to be more consistent; the readings from the strips weren't accurate and kept fluctuating...but it could also be due to my bad eyesight! I use the Jungle Labs master test kit. Another recommended master test kit is API (American Pharmaceuticals Inc.?? I think). There are probably other good ones, but these are the 2 I use. These aren't as convenient and quick as the test strips, and are also more expensive. But well worth the price I think.

[jeffs99dime]

welcome to a.c.

[amn]

Thanks a lot for the info. I cleaned out about 30% of the water, and then a Hap died. Wondering if I should just start over??? But they look better this morning, swimming around normally. I've got the Jungle Brand Quick Dip test set for Ammonia, and Nitrate, Nitrite, Hardness, PH, Alkalinity and before the water change and after the change everything showed normal???
It was heartbreaking to see all the fish gasping at the top.

[minabird]

That's good news amn!! Take another ammonia and nitrite reading everyday to see where your readings are. If they are in the toxic are, then do the prescribed water change. After your ammonia and nitrite reading = 0, then your cycle is complete!

[jeffs99dime]

That's good news amn!! Take another ammonia and nitrite reading everyday to see where your readings are. If they are in the toxic are, then do the prescribed water change. After your ammonia and nitrite reading = 0, then your cycle is complete!

just make sure that your ammo, nitrite remain at zero for a week or so after the initial water test, just to make sure you're in the clear

[Glasstapper]

just a thought: fish gasping at the top of the water could also be a sign of low oxygen in the water. Higher temperature with not much aeration can cause this. If you have a HOB filter,lower your water level a bit to creat a little waterfall. If you see little bubbles caused by it, that's good. Splashing water (also done when you do water changes) puts oxygen in the water.

Sorry if someone already suggested that. It's been a rough morning.

[Sin]

glass tapper is very right....also if you have a filter with a spray bar...take that spray bar out and the jet of water from the hose Aim that downwards into the tank that will create more oxygen in your tank

[amn]

Thanks to everyone for the info!!! They seem to be doing better today. After reading here, I think I was feeding them way too much and that was building up crap?
Haven't fed them today, put the temp up a bit. What is ideal temp for cyclids?
Should I just leave this batch of water in for a while?
When should I change again? Because I should let it cycle, correct?
Don't add any new fish for a while, correct?

[Sin]

feed the fish like twice a week or so for a few weeks and do not add any more fishes , that will not help your situation as tempting as that may be do not add fish! there is no need to over feed the fish , people dont realize how little food the fish actually need..i too am guilty of over feeding my fish , but i have learned my lessons...you might want to add some Biospira into your tank as well .. some of the better fish places carry Biospira that is stored in small fridges. . Good Luck!

[minabird]

Thanks to everyone for the info!!! They seem to be doing better today. After reading here, I think I was feeding them way too much and that was building up crap?
A lot of people overfeed. I know I do. A rule I follow is to feed what your fish can eat in 5 minutes, then remove what’s left. If left to their own devices, fish will eat until they can’t eat anymore. That’s why they always look hungry. In the wild, they may go for days before they find something to eat. So, they are opportunistic eaters by instinct and will eat, and eat, and eat when food is available until there is nothing left.
Haven't fed them today, put the temp up a bit. What is ideal temp for cyclids?
Not sure on this. I don’t have any cichlids…yet…but it would depend upon the type of cichlid you have. Sorry for the generic answer. What types of cichlids do you have? One of our cichlid gurus will probably have a good answer for you.
Should I just leave this batch of water in for a while?
When should I change again? Because I should let it cycle, correct?
Keep monitoring your ammonia and nitrite readings daily and do the water changes when the readings are in the toxic areas of the 2 charts. That should determine how often you do your water changes while your tank cycles.
Don't add any new fish for a while, correct?
Correct. As jeffs99dime said, don’t add fish until you’ve gone a week with zero ammonia and nitrite readings.

Good Luck!