A Disturbing Development

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The following link is something that every marine hobbyist should find disturbing.
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For this well respected company to be offering such a fish for sale is completely unacceptable and they need to understand this. I have personally contacted them to let them know just how disturbing this is. The sad reality is that until the demand for these fish goes away they will continue to be sold.

Making them available to certified researchers is fine as a way to keep them could be developed that way, however for them to be available to the general public is completely and utterly unacceptable.

[Halelorf]

I completely agree. It is not a fish that should be kept by any but expert level researcher. They even say in the bio that "For all but the most expert hobbyist, it is better admired in the ocean or in a public aquarium rather than in a home tank." If it is better to be admired in nature or a size aquarium that only a few exist around the country, it would be better to not sell it at all.

[Lady Hobbs]

If that is mentioned in the bio, then I can't find the reason for not selling them. What about people that have grand aquariums, 800 gallons or larger, and are very experienced?

[Gayle]

Could someone explain to me why this is bad? I have never even heard of this fish before. Excuse my ignorance! Is it just because it is a delicate fish? Are there any laws at all governing what type of fish can be sold? I mean I know that some fish are banned some places, like the Snake Fish, but outside of that? Again excuse my ignorance. Sorry.

[travie]

Could someone explain to me why this is bad? I have never even heard of this fish before. Excuse my ignorance! Is it just because it is a delicate fish? Are there any laws at all governing what type of fish can be sold? I mean I know that some fish are banned some places, like the Snake Fish, but outside of that? Again excuse my ignorance. Sorry.


Pretty much, they cannot be kept alive in any home aquarium for even several months even by the experts of the experts. That is the very undetailed version of the reason.

[kaybee]

Should a fish which has all these caveats:

1. "expert only"

2. "one of the most difficult fish to keep because it is so difficult to feed..."

3. "For all but the most expert hobbyist, it is better admired in the ocean or in a public aquarium rather than in a home tank"

4. "Recommended only for the expert marine aquarist, zoo, or research institution please".

...even be collected from the wild?

Anyone know if zoos, researchers and professional aquariums have better luck at keeping these alive longer than expert hobbyists? I've only come across a single instance (online at that) of an expert keeping his moorish idol alive for 9yrs. (which is phenomenal for this species).

[kaybee]

Isn't there a fish that resembles the moorish idol but is a lot easier to keep?

[Dave66]

Yep, kaybee, the bannerfish (Heniochus acuminatus). Can be kept in a school. Not reef safe, though.

Dave

[Tigerbarb]

I agree. Moorish idols are not the kind of fish that you let people just order online for $30. Maybe if enough people contact Liveaquaria, they might give more of their respect towards such fish. There's no use in just politely requesting that only researchers and expert aquariusts purchase the fish. Just giving basic information about caring for the fish makes aquariusts snap their fingers and go "no problem, I'll get some sponges, a 125g tank, and wait until the tank is established.", and for a moment, I thought that some time I'd get some Moorish idols from LiveAquaria and just put up with their picky habbits. They also screwed up on the minimum tank size. The only person I know who currently is keeping Moorish Idols has a 450 gallon system, lots of experience, and lots of dedication.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

If that is mentioned in the bio, then I can't find the reason for not selling them. What about people that have grand aquariums, 800 gallons or larger, and are very experienced?
That's the problem Hobbs, even those people can't keep them alive for more than a couple of years. The average lifespan for a Moorish Idol in captivity is only 2 weeks. For a fish that should live 15-20 years, 2 years is terrible and 2 weeks is terrible by any standard. The problem is they have a very specialized diet, they are sponge eaters and once they get a taste for sponge, you won't get them to eat anything else. Furthermore if you do happen to get them to eat, they will likely still waste away slowly unless you get them on a very high quality food. However once they stop eating 99.9% of the time they will not start eating again. A Moorish Idol that stops eating is a doomed fish. Even if they are provided with a daily source of sponge, these fish still seem to waste away in captivity. The examples of people keeping them for years and years are very very few, definitely not enough to warrant selling them.

The point is, these fish should not be offered for sale at all. If you can get your hands the January 08 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist, Kieron Dodds wrote the best article I've ever read on them. The article is very well written and it shows the sobering reality of what happens to Moorish Idols in captivity.

[Gayle]

You may have to register to read this, I am not sure, but here is that article.

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[cocoa_pleco]

Im disgusted that they bother to sell them to anyone, i guarantee 98% of them will waste away. its a shame

EDIT- Cruised around the site since the window was open, since when are fullgrown lunar wrasse fine in in 70g of water? they need at least a 125g

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[Lady Hobbs]

Then they should not be sold and there should be a ban on collection of them.

[cocoa_pleco]

i agree, ban them. only people that should be allowed to keep them are biological institutes and zoos who know what theyre doing and can keep them, not sold over the internet as a pretty $40 fish who anyone can buy and will probably waste away in their 10g

[Gayle]

OK Gayle will show her stupidity again...... Who exactly would we write to, or send petitions to? Who regulates fish sells, and capture?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

You would have to get the collection and sale of them made illegal in the US. That would be a rather difficult thing to get going. I communicate with the guy who wrote that article and he may have some idea. I actually put a similar question to him today. Still waiting on the answer.

[Gayle]

Oh. OK. Well let me know, I will support this effort in anyway I can. :) And get my entire class involved.

[cocoa_pleco]

If you need emails or anything, post who to give it to here, i guarantee anyone who keeps saltwater will support it

EDIT- did something i NEVER should have, clicked on the beginner fish in liveaquaria. 90% OF THESE FISH SHOULD NOT BE WITHIN MILES OF BEGINNERS! come on! volitan lionfish? blue hippo and yellow tangs? foxface? butterfly fish? yeah right!

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[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Im disgusted that they bother to sell them to anyone, i guarantee 98% of them will waste away. its a shame

EDIT- Cruised around the site since the window was open, since when are fullgrown lunar wrasse fine in in 70g of water? they need at least a 125g

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If you think that's bad, read their desciption for Yellow Headed Jawfish. They correctly state that they need a 5-7" sand bed in order to dig their burrow, but in their min tank size it says 10gal. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there's a problem there. LiveAquaria.com is not a bad place to buy livestock as they generally have healthy specimens, however they are absolutely terrible with information. Just about every minimum tanksize is at least 1-2 sizes too small and some worse than that. I wouldn't trust their info for one minute on a lot of things. Furthermore, they sell a lot of livestock that shouldn't be offered in the hobby. It's nothing but a money grubbing big company.

[cocoa_pleco]

god, with a 7" sandbed in a 10g, you can barely have any swimming room.

Liveaquaria is a big place, but i wouldnt buy from them. theres a point of being hobbyists supplying to hobbyists, and being money snatchers, they crossed the line. Theyre just supporting people working for a few bucks a day in foreign countries diving and collecting fish for export

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Theyre just supporting people working for a few bucks a day in foreign countries diving and collecting fish for export

Gotta be careful there, that describes pretty much any company that sells fish. They do sell a lot of captive bred stuff though. More and more companies are starting to do that. Moorish Idols are caught in Hawaii though, so no foreign support with them.

[cocoa_pleco]

yeah, but more demand usually means cyanide. theres still alot of people in Asia that use cyanide to catch lots of fish at a time due to demand and quota

[Dave66]

Not as many as their used to be, cocoa. The Marine Advisory Board has put so much pressure on governments they've severely curtailed the practice, and violators can go to prison for it. The MAC certifies collectors that use environmentally safe methods of capturing fish, and for the fishermen, MAC certification means they make a great deal more money for their catch than those that aren't certified.
And shops that sell MAC certified fish sell more because of it, because people know they were caught by net, not cyanide.

Dave

Dave

[theodk]

I bought my moorish idol when i just started out saltwater about 8 months ago. I have lost many fish through stupid mistakes that i have made but my moorish idol eats fine (normal marine pellets and Nori and mysis shrimp) and i havn't had any problems with it. Guess im lucky

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Yes theodk, you are lucky, but watch out when it stops eating, he won't start again. I do have a question for you though, do you happen to have a picture of your fish?

[Halelorf]

Not to knock you Theodk but I think it's safe to say that you probably don't have a moorish idol. It is more likely a banner fish. Both are very beautiful however!

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I bought my moorish idol when i just started out saltwater about 8 months ago. I have lost many fish through stupid mistakes that i have made but my moorish idol eats fine (normal marine pellets and Nori and mysis shrimp) and i havn't had any problems with it. Guess im lucky

You know, it's funny but a little research shows some interesting facts. You didn't have the fish in question back in May when you lost your Filefish to a bacterial infection. First of all, I seriously doubt the fish you have is a Moorish Idol. Second, if by some chance it actually is, shame on you. No, I don't mind saying that because purchasing this fish is plain and simple irresponsible fish keeping.

[cocoa_pleco]

i think halelorf is right, its probably not a actual idol, probably something that looks the same.

[Dr.Fragenstein]

I could say alot on this subject and honestly I don't know where to start.....
Pablo Tepoot the owner and delevoper of Spectrum foods is on record the longest keeper of moorish idols and he says he has at least a 70-80% mortality rate! I have heard of plenty of people keeping Idols and even feeding them pellets and flakes but as stated they WILL stop eating and they won't start again.
I believe that they are bryzoan eaters as compared to sponges, but in all honesty they probably eat both and its neither here nor there anyway.
Many ARE caught in Hawai'i which being an American collector and not someone who is out to "make the quota" as stated they are probably caught in more sustanable ways.
I can make arguments on both sides on every level of the chain.
Collector- Well, many of these guys collect in proper ways and have no problem. BUT keep this in mind guys, WE demand cheap fish, and when US, the WHOLESALERS and EXPORTERS put pressure on the divers for more fish and cheaper, they will do what they have to to put a meager amount of food on the table. Is cyanide still being used? You bet! Is the MAC trying to stop it, yes but how do you police the whole Pacific ocean w/ a NON Profit org.?
Exporters and Wholesalers order the fish they think they can sell, and that comes from shops whose demand in turn comes from US, the consumer. So in all reality it IS in a way all of OUR faults many of this stuff is collected.
I've posted poll's on my local reefclub in regards to does MAC certification matter, and do you shun fish and the stores that sell them that have dubious records? Both times the polls were not what I expected. Most people, even educated reef loving people don't care.
Bangaii cardinals was set to me added to CITES the other year but lobbyists claimed that the people that collect them would suffer if the fish was banned/limited. Well, bangaii's drop like flies esp in wholesale and retail tanks.
Knowing divers and collectors I ask them these questions, and one diver was telling me, he has no problem catching and keeping Idols. He says in his holding tanks they eat like pigs and are fat and happy. Well, do you think that particular diver will stop collecting Idols? Doubt it, if he can keep them alive and sell them why would he?
On the other side, I, in a small way, disagree with a ban of the idols and heres why. Less than 20 years ago corals were rarely kept. Even in the early 90's people still thought SPS would be impossible. I know a guy who is in all reality a reef and equipment genius and he said when he and his family had their first S/W tank in the early 90's they still took the rock out every week and bleached it because thats what others did and thats what people thought was needed. Now look, SPS of all kinds, non photosynthetic corals and the like are being kept by millions. So if we were to ban idols, who would unlock the secret?

[hank]

I'm not a salt water hobbyist but I found your post to be informative and interesting. I too disagree with a ban...

[Red]

I think they should be banned.. 70-80 with a person who knows what they are doing? Imagine a beg. trying it... And they arent that expensive to start so a average joe can even by one!

[kaybee]

...if we were to ban idols, who would unlock the secret?

Perhaps it would be more valuable if the highly skilled/lucky hobbyists/researchers/etc who have been able to keep these fish alive 8-12yrs or more could share/consolidate their techniques and methods to discover the (perhaps common) key to their success.

It also would be interesting to know what common factors are in play that less-skilled but highly experienced hobbyists are doing that enable their's to live a few years (2-4), vice a few months.

But as you've stated, even Pablo experienced 70-80% mortality rates (what is his record for keeping a moorish idol alive, how many years?). Luck might be playing a huge factor in cited successes (when ideally knowledge should be).

It's not worth the lives of the envitable losses that would occur solely due to the inablity to provide them what they 'need' to thrive and live out their natural lifespans. Perhaps there's just certain livestock that shouldn't be kept.

[Dr.Fragenstein]

I agree kaybee, thats why I don't sell mandarins, copperbanded butterflies and the like and of course bangaii cardinals. Do I lose sales, yes but that is the morals and ethics that I choose to uphold. But you have to look at it both ways, if they are banned than even experts cannot get them. I feel that collectively people should just simply not buy them, lowering the demand, in turn lowering the collection. BUT keep them available to experts who have the time and knowledge available to trying different techniques, per se.

[Dave66]

In my 35 years in the hobby, and the in depth research I've done throughout my life concerning aquariums, and the fact that about a third of my income comes from writing about aquarium matters, means that I probably could build an aquarium sufficient to keep a Moorish Idol happy and healthy for it's natural life span. But as a man of good conscience I would never buy a Moorish Idol. They ship pathetically poorly, have very specific dietary needs, and aquarium conditions indistinguishable from that of the reef they come from.
Until Moorish Idols are captive bred, which is years away, I will never build a tank to keep them.
I applaud Dr. Fragenstein choosing not to stock certain species. I would say, however, that Bangaii cardinalfish are mouthbrooders, as are most of the common cardinals, and thus very easily captive bred. The young come out fully formed, looking like tiny freshwater angels. A good group of Bangaii's breed fairly frequently, and the young are easy to raise.

Dave

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Dave, agreed, Captive Bred Bangaii Cardinals are quite readily available in the hobby. However, I also applaud the decision not to sell certain species of fish, including Wild Caught Bangaiis. I think you may be a bit optimistic about keeping an Idol though. LOL

[Tigerbarb]

In my 35 years in the hobby, and the in depth research I've done throughout my life concerning aquariums, and the fact that about a third of my income comes from writing about aquarium matters, means that I probably could build an aquarium sufficient to keep a Moorish Idol happy and healthy for it's natural life span. But as a man of good conscience I would never buy a Moorish Idol. They ship pathetically poorly, have very specific dietary needs, and aquarium conditions indistinguishable from that of the reef they come from.
Until Moorish Idols are captive bred, which is years away, I will never build a tank to keep them.
I applaud Dr. Fragenstein choosing not to stock certain species. I would say, however, that Bangaii cardinalfish are mouthbrooders, as are most of the common cardinals, and thus very easily captive bred. The young come out fully formed, looking like tiny freshwater angels. A good group of Bangaii's breed fairly frequently, and the young are easy to raise.

Dave Have you ever thought you might be able to breed them?

[Dr.Fragenstein]

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a source of TR bangaiis and until then I will NOT order or sell them. But I agree, more people should be attempting it, esp, facilities that are already mass producing clowns and dottybacks.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I think the most likely candidate would be in Hawaii where they are captive breeding a number of species from the Centropyge genus. Not an easy genus to spawn but it is successfully being done.

[Dr.Fragenstein]

I've heard they've also successfully spawned a few deep water genicanthus as well.

[unleashed]

Yes. That is Reef Culture Technologies in Hawaii. However, they have been closed for the last couple of years and are due to re-open next year:

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