20g FW to SW

[AABatteries]

I've been wanting a salt water tank for long time now and my dream has gotten one step closer. Since we are going to have the 50g, my mom suggested turning my 20g into a SW and moving my fish to the 50g. I pretty much know everything I need to know but, just have a few questions.

1. Is live sand a necessity?
2. Would a 55w light be enough for any coral?
3. What would be the easiest fish for a 20g tank?

[cocoa_pleco]

live sand is not necessary, aragonite is another choice

55w of light on a 20g is enough for some zoas and mushrooms

easiest fish would be a pair of oscellaris clowns and a clown goby

[AABatteries]

Okay, I was thinking aragonite. And what do you think a reasonable price would be for the clowns and the goby?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I pretty much know everything I need to know but, just have a few questions.

If you have to ask those questions then you don't know everything you need to know and you need to do more research before you jump in. Read the sticky in the SW forum entitled Reality Check.

[AABatteries]

Okay, let's put it this way, I know some general things about salt water.

[cocoa_pleco]

depends on your area, large cities oscellaris cost as cheap as $10 and in small towns they can cost $30,

but yeah, i have to agree with GB, research more. if you dont know the easiest fish in saltwater and what corals 55w of light can support, its time for more research

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Okay, let's put it this way, I know some general things about salt water.

Then you don't know enough to start a tank yet. Read that thread, it warns against the "learn-as-you-go" approach to sw tanks. Let the 20gal sit empty for some time while you do the research you need before you start the tank. If you want a successful marine tank then trust me, you will wait 2-3 months before you start it and you will take that time to do lots, and I mean lots of reading and learning.

I'm not trying to discourage you from having a sw tank, I'm trying to encourage you to do it right the first time. I am trying to discourage you from jumping in without enough information, believe me you can get into a world of discouragement if you don't have the necessary info.

[Red]

Aqua,
I have been researching for about 5 or 6 months a lot (at least 2 hours a night) and i feel that i am only half way there on starting a tank.... take your time it will always be there.

[AABatteries]

I've been researching for about 2 months. Once it is converted to salt water I plan on just letting it sit with LR for a month or so, so I can a hang of handling the parameters.

[cocoa_pleco]

yeah, definitely do NOT do the learn as you go method. i did that when i started my 55g, and 4 months after the tank was going i read you should always use RO water, i used tapwater

[AABatteries]

I read about your tap water incident where you endend up with 2ft hair algea. Also I know some sort of clown would be easy but, not a specific one.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Have you read the Reality Check thread yet?

[cocoa_pleco]

hair algae at least left, most people have cyano for 1-2 months but i had it for like 8 months, it was rediculous

my 55g breeder and 125g were/are one of the first saltwater tanks i havent made a major error on

[AABatteries]

Have you read the Reality Check thread yet?

Yes, I have.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Then do you understand why I'm telling you that you need to do more research? 2 months worth of researching is rarely enough. Listen, I failed at my first marine tank because I thought 2 months worth of "research" was enough.

[AABatteries]

I'll have at least 3 months of research in before I start and, atleast 4 months before any fish or coral.

[Red]

Like i said aqua i have done 6 months and dont feel i am ready yet...
but good luck with it al..

[xximanoobxx]

i've been researching since june so it's been 4 ish months and IDK a lot...
Take it slow man..
It'll pay off later...

[AABatteries]

Been doing some research and I hope to come up with a basic plan soon, so I'll need some help getting the final one together. One quick question, is this refracometer any good? http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Salinity-Refractometer-4-Aquarium-Pond-Hydrometer_W0QQitemZ320305358870QQihZ011QQcategory Z20755QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153 .l1262

[cocoa_pleco]

i dont have that exact refractometer, but it has a good guarantee and looks good

[AABatteries]

Okay, so it would be worth investing the extra $20 to get that instead of a hyrgometer? I think the answer is yes, but I just want to be sure. And another question. Does the clown goby require pods?

[xximanoobxx]

hygrometer measures the humidity not the salinity

[AABatteries]

hygrometer measures the humidity not the salinity

lol. Sorry, I meant hydrometer. I'll have the plan up in a few minutes.

[cocoa_pleco]

alot better investment, hydrometers arent always accurate

[AABatteries]

Okay, thanks for that info, still wondering about clown goby.
And here comes the plan...

Starting Plan

Tank size: 20g
Lighting: 2x65w PC
Substrate: Sand with aragonite
LR: 10 – 20lbs.
Clean-up crew: Turbo snails – x? Cleaner shrimp – x?
Fish: 2 oscellaris clowns and a clown goby



QT:

Tank size: 10g
Lighting: 15w fluorescent
Substrate: none
LR: none
Decor: plastic object(for hiding)
EDIT- Filter: sponge filter


Medicine Cabinet:

Formalin
Sodium Bicarbonate
De-wormer
Maracyn Two

[xximanoobxx]

the QT still needs LR, it's the most important thing in the SW aquarium...
U also might want hermit crabs, astreas, nassarius, or cerith..
U also need powerheads.. I recommend Koralia 1...
Also protein skimmers are recommended but not required..
U need a heater...
U need a thermometer...
U need a SW keeping book for research purposes....
Aragonite is pretty much the sand... It's not sand with aragonite..
it's pretty much aragonite crushed into pieces..
U need to research more before getting into SW

[AABatteries]

IDK why I left out the heater and thermometer. I was also thinking a Koralia Nano powerhead(fits my budget better, although paying an extra couple bucks for a Kor. 1 isn't too bad).

[xximanoobxx]

What else do u need?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

You may not want to rely on sodium bicarbonate entirely for your buffering. Something I just recently learned from a university professor about using it is that over a period of time, sodium bicarbonate actually will lower your salinity. The bicarbonate gets used great and does a wonderful job of buffering but the sodium ion has to go somewhere and it ends up lowering your salinity. You can fight against that without too much difficulty, but be aware that if you are going to use sodium bicarbonate as your buffer you need to periodically check your salinity and adjust it as necessary. I personally use it and I know Kaybee does as well, but I check my salinity everyso often, Just a heads up.

You need to look into you CUC a bit more as well. Not all critters eat the same thing. If you can get you hands on a couple of back issues of Tropical Fish Hobbyist, there was a great pair of articles recently on reef CUCs. It explained what each snail and hermit ate and how they contributed to the clean up.

Have a look at the Fission Nano Protein Skimmer. They are a good choice for a small tank.

You also need to look into getting more live rock. 20 lbs would be the absolute bare minimum you should get. 30lbs would be better.

[Tigerbarb]

You may not want to rely on sodium bicarbonate entirely for your buffering. Something I just recently learned from a university professor about using it is that over a period of time, sodium bicarbonate actually will lower your salinity. The bicarbonate gets used great and does a wonderful job of buffering but the sodium ion has to go somewhere and it ends up lowering your salinity. You can fight against that without too much difficulty, but be aware that if you are going to use sodium bicarbonate as your buffer you need to periodically check your salinity and adjust it as necessary. I personally use it and I know Kaybee does as well, but I check my salinity everyso often, Just a heads up.

You need to look into you CUC a bit more as well. Not all critters eat the same thing. If you can get you hands on a couple of back issues of Tropical Fish Hobbyist, there was a great pair of articles recently on reef CUCs. It explained what each snail and hermit ate and how they contributed to the clean up.

Have a look at the Fission Nano Protein Skimmer. They are a good choice for a small tank.

You also need to look into getting more live rock. 20 lbs would be the absolute bare minimum you should get. 30lbs would be better.
Lol, guess who used 9 lbs of dead rock, 10 lbs of live sand, waited 2 weeks, added 2 lbs of live rock a minute before acclimating his first fish who was only drip acclimated for 5 minutes, and was able to have a coral polyp grow under 15 watts of T8 light in a 20g/housed a tomato clown for nearly two months? Oh, also, my shrimp shedded twice since I got him, and he was only drip acclimated for 5 minutes. Written in red...

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

And in response to the red, read the Reality Check. Just because you think you've gotten away with that for now doesn't mean it will work long term. Quite frankly, doing what you've done and encouraging others to do the same is just straight up irresponsible.

[Tigerbarb]

And in response to the red, read the Reality Check. Just because you think you've gotten away with that for now doesn't mean it will work long term. Quite frankly, doing what you've done and encouraging others to do the same is just straight up irresponsible. I'm not encouraging others to do the same. It all just makes saltwater seem alot more complicated when people sit back and say they need to go and spend money on...'40 lbs of lr for a 40g tank because you need 40 lbs of lr in a 40g tank.' rather than looking at other possibilities, including that of purchasing some dead rock, and some live rock, or if the aquariust does not want to stock his/her tank to it's limits or wants two larger fish rather than 4 smaller ones, getting enough pourous live rock to create a stable biological filter system and provide more hiding places than there are fish. Just saying that really, all you need are an arrangement of hiding places for your fish, and stable biological filtration.

I do admit that my tank would be alot better if I had gotten 20-30 lbs of lr, but my tomato clown has quite a few hiding spots to sleep in/hide in, and my coral banded shrimp has his hiding spots too. I know that a 20g tank with 10 lbs of lr simply won't do for a tomato clown in a few months, but I'm upgrading. I only have one fish, (a big one, yes) but if I were to stock my tank with... two gobies, and two ocellaris clowns, I would need atleast 20 lbs of rock, and adequate biological filtration.

[Tigerbarb]

Also, notice how I didn't say "Hey, you should get 10 lbs of live sand, 2 lbs of lr, and 10 lbs of tufa rock, and you're good to go!"

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

It all just makes saltwater seem alot more complicated when people sit back and say they need to go and spend money on...'40 lbs of lr for a 40g tank because you need 40 lbs of lr in a 40g tank.' rather than looking at other possibilities, including that of purchasing some dead rock, and some live rock, or if the aquariust does not want to stock his/her tank to it's limits or wants two larger fish rather than 4 smaller ones, getting enough pourous live rock to create a stable biological filter system and provide more hiding places than there are fish.

There's a reason it makes it more complicated, and this because it really is, you have over simplified it. No matter what you are planning to do for a bioload the minimum recommended amount is 1 pound of LR per gallon. I'm not saying that you have to buy it all as live rock, obviously I don't think that, I wrote an entire article on doing it other ways but even when you do buy dry rock you should have the minimum of 1 pound per gallon. There are a lot of people a lot smarter than me and with a lot more experience than me who will tell you the same thing.


Just saying that really, all you need are an arrangement of hiding places for your fish, and stable biological filtration.
Somewhat true, but the key word there is stable. You can't achieve a stable enviornment without a sufficient amount of LR.


Tigerbarb, you may not have said that but by telling people "this is what I did and it worked" you are telling them the same thing. The point is, by telling a beginner that you did less than the recommended minimum and seemingly got away with it, you are encouraging them to do the same, weather intended or not. You want to tell people how you did it then fine, but preface it by saying that others shouldn't follow your example.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I meant 20-30lbs or LR, idk why I was thinking of the amount for a 10g tank when I wrote that up. I'll have a revised plan ready later today.

[AABatteries]

Revised plan v1.0

Starting Plan

Tank size: 20g
Lighting: 2x65w PC
Substrate: Aragonite
LR: 20 – 30lbs.
Clean-up crew: Turbo snails – x? Cleaner shrimp – x? Hermit crabs – x?
Fish: 2 oscellaris clowns and a clown goby
Heater: 100w Hagen Elite


QT:

Tank size: 10g
Lighting: 15w fluorescent
Substrate: none
LR: 10 – 20lbs.
Decor: pvc pipe
Filter: Sponge filter
Heater: ?


Equipment:

Thermometer
Saltwater master test kit
Refractometer


Medicine Cabinet:

Formalin
Sodium Bicarbonate
De-wormer
Maracyn Two

[Tigerbarb]

There's a reason it makes it more complicated, and this because it really is, you have over simplified it. No matter what you are planning to do for a bioload the minimum recommended amount is 1 pound of LR per gallon. I'm not saying that you have to buy it all as live rock, obviously I don't think that, I wrote an entire article on doing it other ways but even when you do buy dry rock you should have the minimum of 1 pound per gallon. There are a lot of people a lot smarter than me and with a lot more experience than me who will tell you the same thing.

Somewhat true, but the key word there is stable. You can't achieve a stable enviornment without a sufficient amount of LR.


Tigerbarb, you may not have said that but by telling people "this is what I did and it worked" you are telling them the same thing. The point is, by telling a beginner that you did less than the recommended minimum and seemingly got away with it, you are encouraging them to do the same, weather intended or not. You want to tell people how you did it then fine, but preface it by saying that others shouldn't follow your example.
I, too, have listened to hobbyists alot smarter than I, and have done lots of research.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I, too, have listened to hobbyists alot smarter than I, and have done lots of research.

There's a difference between hearing what they have to say and listening to what they say. If you had listened to them you would have done things differently, you wouldn't have jumped in with fish as fast as you did, believe me, I remember the thread. Enough of this though, this is Aqua's thread. You want to continue then PM me.

Sorry about that aqua. Aqua, that looks like a much better plan. Still, I would strongly advise you to keep reading and learning. You may find during your reading that a 20gal marine tank is not as easy as you may think. Don't just limit yourself to the Turbo Snails either.

[AABatteries]

Okay, thanks for stopping the debate between you two, I was about to say something about it. And I find my self reading FOWLR info almost every night for atleast 2 hours. Been reading up on acclimation and QT lately. I would've liked to get a 29/30g tank but, my parents were against that. And since my mom suggested a conversion there's a good chance this might follow through.

[cocoa_pleco]

yep, keep researching, youve got a good start

about the getting away with stuff, its not good to give it as advice. in my first nano reef 8 years ago, i got away having a 12" condy anemone in a 10g tank with a measly 30w of incandescent light, 5 damsels, a oscellaris clown, urchin, a starfish, and 3lbs LR for 3 months. of course eventually everything crashed and only the urchin and condy survived. i never drip acclimated anything, and i had 50g worth of salt in the tank first because i was reading the hydrometer wrong. this was before forums

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

How about encouraging her to do some research on the subject as well. It might get her to realize that 20gal is not a good starter size for a marine tank and she may be willing to let you use the 50 instead.

[cocoa_pleco]

How about encouraging her to do some research on the subject as well. It might get her to realize that 20gal is not a good starter size for a marine tank and she may be willing to let you use the 50 instead.

ditto on that, if you just inform them that hey, a 20g is alright, but if we set up a 50g, things will be alot more stable, theres more room to work with, and things in the long run will be alot smoother, they will be more willing to let you use the 50g

[AABatteries]

I already asked about making the 50g SW before we started setting it up for FW. In other words the 50g SW was a no.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

That's a shame. Think you could talk her into doing some reading of her own on the topic? You know, like getting her own username here? LOL

[AABatteries]

I told she should read the marine aquarium article and she said she would do that later. She's pretty much okay with everything so its mainly my dad. He thinks its to hard to care for and that its expensive(which is correct). I told him that if you do enough research and stuff like that it won't be as challenging.

[cocoa_pleco]

I told she should read the marine aquarium article and she said she would do that later. She's pretty much okay with everything so its mainly my dad. He thinks its to hard to care for and that its expensive(which is correct). I told him that if you do enough research and stuff like that it won't be as challenging.

if cost is a issue, thats a problem. saltwater is pricey, dont forget the monthly cost, its not just the initial. you need to pay for salt every month, food, any dosings, etc. always have a reserve fund in case your light breaks or something else fails

[AABatteries]

I have most of the initial cost figured out. CHRISTMAS!!!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

[AABatteries]

Revised plan v1.1

Starting Plan

Tank size: 20g
Lighting: 2x65w PC
Substrate: Aragonite
LR: 20 – 30lbs.
Clean-up crew: Turbo snails – x? Cleaner shrimp – x? Hermit crabs – x?
Fish: 2 oscellaris clowns and a clown goby
Heater: 100w Hagen Elite
Powerhead: Koralia Nano

QT(Might not be able to have):

Tank size: 10g
Lighting: 15w fluorescent
Substrate: none
LR: 10 – 20lbs.
Decor: pvc pipe
Filter: Sponge filter
Heater: ?


Equipment:

Thermometer
Saltwater master test kit
Refractometer


Medicine Cabinet:

Formalin
Sodium Bicarbonate
De-wormer
Maracyn Two

[cocoa_pleco]

i personally dont quarantine, but ive heard live rock is a bad idea in quarantine tanks

[AABatteries]

I originally wasn't planning to have LR in the QT if I have one. But imanoob said otherwise. I also read LR was not required for QT.

[xximanoobxx]

Well, I'm sorry for giving bad info...
Noobs makes mistakes and I still need more research...
U should get this book.
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner... It's pretty much the best SW book u can get... I just ordered it and stuff...

[AABatteries]

Its okay, we all make mistakes. I'll look into getting that book.

[xximanoobxx]

it's worth the 50 bux...

[AABatteries]

I saw that its a bit pricy, I looked on Amazon and I can get a used one for $16 with shipping.

[xximanoobxx]

make sure get the revised version...

[oldhead]

Aqua, I do agree that you should do as much research as you can until you feel comfortable on the subject. I'm not saying that it'll take you months or years as this is more a matter of your learning ability and the time you can put in. You'll know when you're ready to start when you find that you don't have quite so many questions. This hobby is not that hard to get into. The sole largest investment that is put into any successful SW or Reef tank is patience. As suggested take your time and don't rush into a tank. SW and Reef tanks are an extremely exciting thing to get started. And for all the beauty of them people sometimes tend to lose sight of the ever important idea of being able to provide a stable environment. The best advice that I can offer you is to yes, do more research. But also wait to begin the setup until you have the necessary hardware to sustain it all. Also keep in mind that the odds are stacked against you being a beginner with a tank that size. And that it'll require a sizable chunk of your time, especially in the beginning. All the more reason to be patient and research often. It may seem like some here are trying to scare you off or give you a hard time. But really they're just attempting to help you not make mistakes that can prove to be costly to you and your livestock. Just throwing in my 2 cents...... Good luck whatever you do though.

[AABatteries]

I know it will require more time, which is actually a good thing because I find my self bored almost every night. And now since I probably won't be setting it up untill Christmas time, it'll allow me to get even more research done.

[oldhead]

I know it will require more time, which is actually a good thing because I find my self bored almost every night. And now since I probably won't be setting it up untill Christmas time, it'll allow me to get even more research done.


Good stuff. Just remember that the more time that you spend now the happier you and your tank will be in the end. Nothing like showing off a beautiful well planned out tank.

[AABatteries]

Okay, now this thread will be pretty much go dormant for a while since I have the plans and I won't be able to get the main equipment till Christmas. If I have a question I'll ask it of course.

[AABatteries]

Questions!
I have a Whiper 30 filter on the tank right now. Would it be okay to keep that or not? Also would a Marineland Penguin 550 powerhead give enough flow so that the money the Koralia would cost could get me a refractometer?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Providing you take the media out, the Whisper 30 would be fine to use as water movement. It would give you a place to put carbon if you so desire as well.

[oldhead]

Okay, now this thread will be pretty much go dormant for a while since I have the plans and I won't be able to get the main equipment till Christmas. If I have a question I'll ask it of course.


Don't let it go dormant if you don't have to. Everyone here will be happy to help you along I'm sure. So post up if you have any questions or revised plans.

[xximanoobxx]

Nope, 145gph is not enough...
Get either a maxijet 900 or 1200..
1200 would be better...18 bux on Drs
But u can get Koralias really cheap online though...
It's ur choice.

[AABatteries]

Would the flow from the 550 and the Whiper 30 be enough?

[xximanoobxx]

don't think so...
get a maxijet, it's cheaper actually than the 550 18 bux for maxihet 1200 and 23 bux for 550.... maxijet puts out more than 2x the gph...

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Quite true, however the MaxiJet also puts out 2x the heat. MaxiJets are great powerheads, but not great for small tanks due to a high amount of heat transfer.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I'll probably go with the maxijet 1200. EDIT:Forget the MaxiJet since the heat, guess I'll go with Koralia Nano. Another question, about lighting fixtures. Would this lighting be fine? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=370089870936&Category=46314&_trksid=p3907.m29 OR http://cgi.ebay.com/Current-USA-24-Aquarium-Satellite-65w-PC-Light-Fixture_W0QQitemZ200253809122QQcmdZViewItem?_trksi d=p3286.m20.l1116
Or go with a Current 24" 2x65w PC?

[cocoa_pleco]

personally i like the current more, it looks cooler

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Are you going to be doing a reef or FOWLR?

[xximanoobxx]

are u keeping corals or no

[AABatteries]

I had the same thought as you cocoa. And to start it will be FOWLR and might add some zoas or mushrooms down the road. And since just a single 65w would give me 2.25wpg thats why I was thinking zoas and mushrooms.

[xximanoobxx]

personally i like the current more, it looks cooler

i heard currents break down after 2-3 yrs of operation and coralifes can go forever and JBJ as well

[oldhead]

Lighting more or less depends on what you're trying to keep. You should try and make list of what corals you're thinking of keeping. And then measure their needs, compatibility and lighting requirements. From there I would invest in a lighting system.

[xximanoobxx]

What oldhead said

[AABatteries]

I just realized that I have two 550s, would those 2 give me enough flow?

[oldhead]

I just realized that I have two 550s, would those 2 give me enough flow?


You should shoot for around 20 times turnover in your tank if you just want something in general to benchmark with. Flow is a tricky thing to gauge in some tanks. There are things that you have to consider in regards to livestock. Some corals don't need as heavy of a flow as others will. So you'll need to attempt to establish the flow in your tank to their likings. This goes back to trying to make up some sort of list regarding what you might like to keep. Also, you want to attempt to position powerheads and the sort in a manner that they create at least some sort of chaotic and not linear flow. Water movement in reef tanks is very important for countless reasons. It's up to you to establish this pattern in a way that keeps whatever livestock you're attempting to house healthy.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Agreed. Your flow will be determined by the kind of setup you have. If you were going for an SPS tank then 20x turnover would be about where I'd start and then go up from there, however if you were going to keep LPS then you want to go down quite a bit but not less than 10x turnover. If, however, you are planning on a FOWLR then flow is not as critical, it's still very important, but without corals to consider it is much less critical.

[Lowflyer]

Hi Aqua

I've just skimmed through your thread and looks like you've been taken care of. But just a few bits of advice on the salt water tank. I started with fish tanks when I was about 12 years old, that was 10 years ago, started out with fresh water, and it was then when I started learning about salt water setups from my friends father. I am still learning loads today and consider myself a noob still. I had a break period from tanks, but never lost my passion for them, so I still did some reading in between there.

As with any hobby and pet keeping, you will never stop learning, but I do believe that there is a minimum amount of knowledge that is needed before one starts keeping any pet, and that amount is enough so that the owner can keep the animal healthy and happy and not just alive.

The fish and corals well being is the most important thing to remember and to be aware of. A very well known marine keeper in my town says that "You must always remember that you are looking after the water that the fish are living in, because it is the water that they rely on to live and breath".

So here's what I think:

1. I think you should add a sump with a DSB(deep sand bed) of at least 4inches deep, which will add to the volume of water and keep the parameters more stable. The sump will need an overflow built onto the display tank and a return pump(much like the ones used in water features).
The sump will also be able to house the skimmer, heater, thermometer etc so that your tank is not cluttered with equipment.

2. At least 20lbs of live rock

3. If possible, a small protein skimmer, rather spend the money and get the equipment now (remember, during the cycling period it is not necessary to have any lights on the tank, which will give you a month or two to save up for lights)

4. When you have money for lights, if you take the advice above, go for 2 white t5's and 1 marine blue t5, this should be good for some corals since the tank is so small.

5. Get two small powerheads for circulation and place them as you would like them to flow, one way of doing this is placing one in each back corner and facing them both toward the middle of the front glass, this will create a good circulation.

6. If I were you, i would rather use the 10 gallon as a sump, it will greatly improve the quality of life for you fish.

Hope this helps and if anyone doesn't agree with anything I said and would like to mention it, please feel free.

Remember Aqua, the ocean is huge and salt water fish are used to very stable water parameters

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

1. I think you should add a sump with a DSB(deep sand bed) of at least 4inches deep, which will add to the volume of water and keep the parameters more stable. The sump will need an overflow built onto the display tank and a return pump(much like the ones used in water features).

Very well put Lowflyer. There is only one thing that I'd have to disagree with and that is part of what you mentioned above. While the sump and the DSB are both great ideas, a DSB for a beginner who has never maintained one can be a bad thing. Like anything, a DSB must be properly maintained. If a DSB is not maintained properly it can cause problems. It is important that you have sand sifting organisms living in that DSB. Mine is constantly being stired by my Nassarious snails. Things like Tongan Fighting Conchs, Nassarious snails, and even some sand sifting stars are some examples of organisms that should be used to properly maintain a DSB. While you don't want to disturb the lower lower regions of the DSB (below 3") the top should be kept sifted.

[AABatteries]

Okay, thanks for all the info. Got a question about LR. Right now an LFS is having a sale on the LR. So I was wondering if I could get some and keep it in a large rubbermaid contianer or something similar. And I was thinking that if that was possible I might need to have a powerhead running for flow.

[AABatteries]

Okay, this period is almost over, and I have gym next so, I guess I'll have to wait till I get home to see if I get an answer.

[travie]

Okay, thanks for all the info. Got a question about LR. Right now an LFS is having a sale on the LR. So I was wondering if I could get some and keep it in a large rubbermaid contianer or something similar. And I was thinking that if that was possible I might need to have a powerhead running for flow.

What you will need to keep the LR alive:
Big rubbermaid container - Good
Powerhead - Good
RO water
Salt mix
Hydrometer
Heater
Thermometer

[AABatteries]

Okay, I knew I would need hydrometer and salt mix. Didn't think about RO water, heater, and thermometer.

[travie]

Your better off getting in the habit of using RO water for everything from the start. Just ask Cocoa.

[AABatteries]

I've read about his hair algae incident.

[oldhead]

Do yourself a favor and don't purchase any LR until you're ready to set the tank up. Trust me when I tell you there will be other deals to be had on LR and the like. Try to concentrate on research and getting your set up together for right now. You still seem somewhat unfamiliar with some of the basics.

[AABatteries]

What would be some of those basics so I can read up on them?

[cocoa_pleco]

Your better off getting in the habit of using RO water for everything from the start. Just ask Cocoa.

lol, that hair algae and cyano sucked!

[AABatteries]

New question!!!
Found Fiji LR for $1.99lb at this place. http://www.aloha-aquariums.com/servlet/the-1414/Fiji-Live-Rock--dsh-/Detail?sfs=5e40ca45 Wondering if anybody has ever bought from here before. I can get 25lbs of it for about the price of 25-30lbs of Indo Pacific around here.

[AABatteries]

I'm going to be giving everybody who has helped me out so far, forget what post its on, just giving out some rep.

[Halelorf]

That is a great deal on liverock. Check to make sure there isn't a minimum on pounds to purchase and check shipping costs. Besides those two issue I see nothing wrong with getting your rock from there.

[cocoa_pleco]

good deal, like Halelorf said make sure theres not a 50lb minimum or something

[AABatteries]

The price did include shipping, so I'll have to check on the minimum order thing. Hopefully there's none because that'll be good news for me.

[AABatteries]

Question time!!

I know I should use a de-wormer when I put my fish into the aquarium. And since I wouldn't be getting all the fish at the same time would I have to set up a temporary place to de-worm the new fish or would I just put the de-wormer right into the tank with the other fish?

[xximanoobxx]

The price did include shipping, so I'll have to check on the minimum order thing. Hopefully there's none because that'll be good news for me.


Nope, there's shipping... It's like 25 bux for 20 lbs...
It gets higher and higher...
it makes it about 3.40$/lb

[AABatteries]

Wow, that's a sweet deal for me. Fiji LR around here is $9.99/lb.

[xximanoobxx]

Craigslist....

[Halelorf]

Yea at $3.40/lb that is still a good deal, around here it is around $7/lb. I wouldn't worry too much about worms. Dosing meds in a marine tank is serious business, I would personally only use it as a last resort for something in a quarantine rather than a precaution. I would try to feed garlic food as garlic will starve internal parasites and eventually clear your fish out. All of the New Life Spectrum foods are pretty high in garlic, I use NLS marine pellets for my ocellaris clown and skunk cleaner shrimp. You can also get the NLS Thera pellets which is just the regular pellets with a ton more garlic. It can be expensive depending on where you live, it's not that bad where I live, but I would highly recommend it. You can also mince up some garlic and try to feed that to your fish, although I don't know how successful that would be.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I'll probably try to get the NLS Thera to start out, and when that runs out I'll try to get NLS Marine.

[AABatteries]

What are good pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate parameters for a FOWLR?

[Red]

Aqua you should do some reseach on your own and then see if you have questions after that... buts thats JMO

[xximanoobxx]

I agree with Sev, I just got the book from the mail... It's a really good book...
http://www.f3images.com/IMD/600/BKCMAS2/BKCMAS2_1.jpg
THat one...
It has everything in it...
THat's why it's called A COMMONSENSE Handbook...
It's worth it...
Start from the book, not food...

[AABatteries]

I'm thinking about that book or this other book... The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide by Michael S. Paletta. Just wondering if it is any good.

[xximanoobxx]

That one is good too...
But the one im telling u is better.

[AABatteries]

Okay, and I got the answer for the parameters.

[xximanoobxx]

The parameters are simple....
Since all the ones u asked have to be 0 except for PH=8.0 Nitrate below 5

[Halelorf]

ph 8.0-8.2, ammonia 0, nitRITE 0, nitRATE <20, if you want coral I would get it down to <5. Shouldn't be very hard to keep nitrates low if you do regular waterchanges and don't over feed.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I'm off to bed now.

[oldhead]

Aqua you should do some reseach on your own and then see if you have questions after that... buts thats JMO


Agreed. You started out this thread saying that you pretty much knew everything you needed to know and only had a few questions, or something to that liking. You may want to spend some of the time you have waiting to set up the tank doing some reading. Or even searching over the net for information if you can.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

While I agree with the others, there is something important to remember; asking experienced marine hobbyists questions is great research. You can read many many books, but asking the people who have done it is drawing on experience, and experience is a great teacher. When someone comes here and asks a question I could sound like a robot and quote some scripted answer out of a book, but rather than that, I can speak from experience and experience will often teach you things that the book will not. Read the books, ask questions and then compare the answers. If we tell you something that is contrary to something you read, ask for clarification, that's the beauty of the forum, you can get clarification on what we mean, a book only gives you the same answer over and over every time you read it. I'm not knocking books, they are great, I have a couple of shelves full myself, but they won't teach you everything.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I'll have to try to find a book around here in a store, there's always Amazon if I have no luck with that.

[Halelorf]

Goldbarb is spot on with his last post. I sat in Barnes and Noble for hours reading all their marine books before I started my tank. I have the Paletta book, it is very good and was part of the foundation of knowledge that I started my tank with. I also went and read over as many threads as I could on marine forums. You should read through a couple of setup books to understand why you want some equipment rather than others, the pros and cons of each, then come on here with any questions you have about anything. After that start making a plan for your tank and posting it here and everyone will help you through it and give suggestions on what to keep/remove and why.

[AABatteries]

I've been reading threads on other forums too. I'll probably go to Borders and read for a couple hours.

[AABatteries]

Found this light fixutre... http://www.innovativelights.com/esu-53004.html Would it be any good and its only $69.30 with shipping, and thats with mounting legs.

[AABatteries]

Another question! Would the tank have to have an open top with nothing to cover it?

[xximanoobxx]

doesn't matter.
If u have a fish that jumps out then u need 1

[xximanoobxx]

I've been reading threads on other forums too. I'll probably go to Borders and read for a couple hours.

What other forums?

[AABatteries]

Just other 20g FOWLR and reef creation threads. Forget the forums.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Another question! Would the tank have to have an open top with nothing to cover it?

No, it doesn't have to be open, but as noob pointed out, if you have fish that a prone to jumping then you will need something. I personally have what they call eggcrate on mine. It allows the light to pass through without any diffusion. If you don't have corals this is not really an issue. The biggest issue I see for you having an open top tank is the fact that it is so small and having an open top increases evaporation and that is something you can't afford to have increased in such a small system.

[cocoa_pleco]

that light looks fine

[AABatteries]

Okay, are ocellaris clownfish or clown gobys prone to jumping? Even if not I might get a glass top just to reduce the evaporation.

[cocoa_pleco]

both are capable, depends on their personality

[AABatteries]

So, I guess I'll get a glass top just to be safe. I also have great news. I could get all the current fish moved into the 50g and have the tank ready for SW in less than a week. I would probably get 5lbs of that cured Fiji LR for $1.99/lb. and 20-25lbs. uncured. Since it would be sitting for about 2 months before I could get better lighting. I'll have the tank specs up tomorrow so I can figure out what I would need to do.

[xximanoobxx]

how much are the uncured rocks?

[oldhead]

So, I guess I'll get a glass top just to be safe. I also have great news. I could get all the current fish moved into the 50g and have the tank ready for SW in less than a week. I would probably get 5lbs of that cured Fiji LR for $1.99/lb. and 20-25lbs. uncured. Since it would be sitting for about 2 months before I could get better lighting. I'll have the tank specs up tomorrow so I can figure out what I would need to do.

What equipment do you have on hand now to get it going?

[AABatteries]

Okay, list of stuff I have...

Tank
2 penguin 550s
15w flourescent lighting
cheap thermometer(I'd get a digital one)
100w heater

What I need...

Aragonite
Hyrdometer(will get refractometer just before I get fish)
Salt water master test kit

All that stuff is just to keep the LR untill I can get 65w lighting. And idk how much uncured LR a LFS that has it, hasn't e-mailed me back the price. Of course I'l' still have to get everything I don't have thats on my full list.

[AABatteries]

Bump! New question, would one of those filters that goes on your faucet work? Like a Brita or Pur.

[oldhead]

Bump! New question, would one of those filters that goes on your faucet work? Like a Brita or Pur.


Anything "could" work but some things are not recommended. I would not recommend you doing something like that. Either invest in a descent RO/DI set up or find some place that you can purchase it from on the regular.

[oldhead]

Okay, list of stuff I have...

Tank
2 penguin 550s
15w flourescent lighting
cheap thermometer(I'd get a digital one)
100w heater

What I need...

Aragonite
Hyrdometer(will get refractometer just before I get fish)
Salt water master test kit

All that stuff is just to keep the LR untill I can get 65w lighting. And idk how much uncured LR a LFS that has it, hasn't e-mailed me back the price. Of course I'l' still have to get everything I don't have thats on my full list.


Are you ever planning to run a skimmer on your set up or will you be relying mainly on water changes?

[AABatteries]

I might get one, thinking about one of those fission nano skimmers.

[AABatteries]

I might get one, thinking about one of those fission nano skimmers.
Are they any good?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Yes, for smaller tanks the are really good. I wouldn't recommend on for anything too big. Something that may be even better for you would be the CPR Backpac Skimmer.

[Northernguy]

I'm jealous! I want a salt water set up:c1:

[oldhead]

The Fission Nano is ok but the CPR would be a better investment. You may want to consider space issues though if you plan to run 2 filters and the skimmer.

[AABatteries]

I'd either run just the Whisper 30 without filter media and the skimmer, or just a skimmer.

[xximanoobxx]

Are they any good?

They are a piece of ....
They aren't really worth the money..
IMO

[AABatteries]

It would be better than nothing, and it might fit in the whisper 30.

[xximanoobxx]

They actually don't do crap

[AABatteries]

Oh, then I guess I won't get a skimmer, unless I can get a decent one for no more than $50.

[xximanoobxx]

Get AquaCRemora Nano
or Tunze Nano Skimmer
orCPR SR2

[AABatteries]

I actually made this... http://aquatopiaforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1069 All I need is the air stone and air pump. I'll have this going and see how it does, if it does fine I'll keep it, if not I'll get a new one for Christmas.

[AABatteries]

Question! This is a little noobish but, why are their saltwater and freshwater test kits, they test the same thing anyways.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Not all are seperate. Usually, NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3, and PH are all the same. If there are some that are different it would be because of the different composition of SW. There are a lot more minerals in SW than in FW, not in variety, but in concentration and certain elements can throw of some test kits.

[cocoa_pleco]

they are not the same, alot of them are different. youre best off getting a master or mini master saltwater test kit

[AABatteries]

I'm planning on getting the API Saltwater master test kit. It tests pH, nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia.

[AABatteries]

Bump!!!!!!!!!!

[Halelorf]

I use the API master test kit, works very well. Just follow the nitrate instrustions to the letter or you can get a false reading.

[AABatteries]

Yeah, I know you have to shake it for like a minute or something.

[oldhead]

I use the API master test kit also and Salifert tests for Ca and ALk.

[gem]

For the standard tests (amonia, nitrite, nitrate, high range ph) the chemicals in the API test kits for both fresh and salt are the same. the difference is the color charts. If youre testing, for example, amonia with the API Amonia test kit, the color chart for Saltwater is different. If you already have the FW API test kits, you can email API and they will send you the SW charts.
As for the rest of the API test kits for reef, KH, Ca, Mg etc...they do sell the seperately.
It may, though, in the long run be more cost effective to just buy the reef master kit than the different sepearte tests.
Personally...I use Elos test kits. I find them to be the most accurate.

[AABatteries]

Is the Rio nano protein skimmer any good? I've read reviews about it and it seems pretty good, just want your opions.

[Halelorf]

If you can get it to skim then yes it is good for it's price. That being said however it is VERY difficult to get it tuned in and skimming. I had it on my reef when it was a 10 gallon and it would skim a very watery green. Then I switched to a nano aquac remora when I turned the tank into a 15g. I brough the rio back out to use on my 10g quarantine tank. Tried for about a hour to get it tuned in again. The best I can do is either it doesn't skim or it overflows. I made the mistake of leaving it on the first night and it overflowed 1/3 of the tank onto my floor. I'm going to run an airstone through it to fine tune and see if that helps it. My advice would be to save your money and stay away. Save up for a quality skimmer like a tunze or aquac.

[AABatteries]

Is the Aqua Euro nano tank skimmer any good?

[xximanoobxx]

Aqua, IMO the best way is to save up and get a aquac nano or a tunze nano...
seriously..
Those are the only reliable nano skimmers on the market...

[cocoa_pleco]

Rio HOB skimmers= crap to me. ive had 3, and on all of them the motor burnt out somehow within a couple of days

[AABatteries]

Okay, forget the Rio.

[AABatteries]

Are Lee's protein skimmers any good?

[cocoa_pleco]

Are Lee's protein skimmers any good?

the wood airstone ones? theyre alright, not as good as a venturi powerhead driven ones

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-85300140756196/lees-protein-skimmer.jpg

[AABatteries]

Okay, yeah that's the one I plan on getting now, since I'm planning on getting a 48w t5 fixture for $40 the money that would've gone towards that will now get me that.

[AABatteries]

I might be getting a red sea skimmer for $25 locally. Yay for me!

[cocoa_pleco]

I might be getting a red sea skimmer for $25 locally. Yay for me!

red sea prizm? if it is, it belongs in the garbage. they have a horrible reputation. i didnt believe it, bought one myself for $40 off of a local ad, was in the garbage within ~1 hour

[AABatteries]

No, a berlin, hopefully the airlift 60 because that's all that will fit in my tank.

[cocoa_pleco]

No, a berlin, hopefully the airlift 60 because that's all that will fit in my tank.

good, that at least is a powerhead driven skimmer, ive had nothing but bad luck with HOB motor driven skimmers

[AABatteries]

I thought it was a air pump skimmer.

[cocoa_pleco]

I thought it was a air pump skimmer.

i dont think so, every skimmer like that need a powerhead to give flow into the skimmer, the bubbles just thicken the crap in the water so it foams in the collection cup. if you can, get a venturi powerhead, much more efficient. air pump skimmers are usually submersible and for 10g and under tanks

http://z.about.com/d/saltaquarium/1/0/l/O/1/BerlinClassicSkimmer.jpg

[AABatteries]

Here's what I'm talking about...
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-85300140756196_2022_133569882

[cocoa_pleco]

yep thats a airpump one, theyre common on stock nanocubes

[AABatteries]

If that is one of the skimmers I can get from the guy, and I can get it for no mroe than $20 I'm going to get it. If not I'll get one of the small Lee's skimmers brand new for about $30 with shipping.

[AABatteries]

Got a question about lighting, would 65w of PC or 48w of t5 be better?

[cocoa_pleco]

T-5. Power compacts are slowly going out, T-5' are way better

[AABatteries]

Okay, thanks for the info, I'm heading off the bed now.

[AABatteries]

Okay, its been 4 months since this thread was touched. Now, I'm bringing it back. =D

Talked about getting into a hobby last night at dinner, and I kept bringing up SW for me and my mom said okay, but of course my dad said no. We're trying on getting him to allow it, once that happens I'll be doing it for sure.

Anyways, for now I'll just have the stock lighting, the 2x24w t5 fixture I want won't be back in stock untill June which is a good thing because I wouldn't be getting any coral till at least then.

I'll be stuck with the jugs for RO water until my birthday in April when I can get an RO/DI unit. So, I'll get my plans together here soon.

EDIT: Oh, and here come a few questions...

Would <1g fuge do me any good?
Would 2 koralia nanos be too much flow for softies?

[AABatteries]

Bump and plan!

Heater: Theo 100w
Lighting: 15w t8
L/R: 25lbs.
Skimmer: None for now.
Thermometer: Digital w/temp alerts
Flow: Koralia nano and a penguin 550 or some other little powerhead I have laying around depending on how the flow the koralia gives.
Substrate: Arag-Alive or some other aragonite substrate

[travie]

For the fuge, any place for pod growth is better then no place at all, in my opinion. Chaeto in there will be good for the tank too.

[Miltonic]

good luck setting up your tank and convincing your dad.

about the fuge, I read somewhere that your fuge has to be at least like 20% of your displays water volume to effective but having one even if its mall can't hurt.

[AABatteries]

Oh, then I may or may not spend the money on it. Putting the money towards a decent skimmer AquaC or CPR would be better.

[AABatteries]

Okay, I pretty much have an okay. My mom says okay. My dad is still a problem. Hopefully I'll be allowed soon. As soon as he says yes, SHOPPING SPREE! Not really a spree just a few things to get me started and I'll order my L/R.

Got a few questions...

Is spending the extra money on the CaribSea live sand worth it? Or can I just get the "dead" aragonite?

Would water filtered by a carbon filter make much of a difference between tap water? The tap water around here can't be too bad. A guy at the LFS always uses tap water for his and only had a 6 month battle with the starting algae. And I'm figuring I'd rather use carbon filtered water for about two months rather than buying jug for two months before I can get an RO/DI unit.

[travie]

Is spending the extra money on the CaribSea live sand worth it? Or can I just get the "dead" aragonite?

No, not worth it. Just get some fully cured LR and it will turn the sand live with time.

[labnjab]

Would water filtered by a carbon filter make much of a difference between tap water? The tap water around here can't be too bad. A guy at the LFS always uses tap water for his and only had a 6 month battle with the starting algae. And I'm figuring I'd rather use carbon filtered water for about two months rather than buying jug for two months before I can get an RO/DI unit.

I think the carbon filter is going to be useless and just cause problems. Buy jugs and you'll be ahead of the game. I've been buying jugs for 6 months and will be finally getting our ro unit this week.

As for flow, it all depends on what softies you want to keep. Some, like zoas, like as much flow as possible, but others, like some leathers, only like enough to move their polyps around a little. I have 2 korilia 2's in my 29 and its almost, but not quite, too much flow, so i think 2 2's in a softie tank will be overkill, but, all tanks are different, so it may work for you

[AABatteries]

I was thinking 2 koralia nanos. At least one for sure and a penguin 550.

Okay, guess I'll be going with jugs.

[Rue]

Don't use any kind of tap water. Sometimes it seems to work out, but more often than not it doesn't. Then you might need to break it down and start from scratch.

Not worth it. Just buy the jugs and buy some R/O water. It will be alot cheaper in the long than trying to cheap out with tap water. :hmm3grin2orange:

Distilled is also an option.

[AABatteries]

Okay. I've read distilled works fine too. Anybody know how much those big drums things that go on the dispensers are?

[cocoa_pleco]

usually the 5g containers have a $10 deposit and are $2 to fill. i do it that way, too lazy to bother with a RO unit

[AABatteries]

Okay. Lol.

I think I'll just use 1g jugs. A few of the jugs will turn into baking soda and vinegar bombs. :hmm3grin2orange:

[AABatteries]

Yay! I got a yes! I should be picking up some aragonite, salt mix, heater, and hydrometer tomorrow, and ordering the LR and test kit. Off to make a thread in the journals.