a lot goldfish problems (he's eating rocks!?!)

[OwnerOfPhil]

I've only noticed it today, but I have a 4-inch-long comet goldfish that pokes around the bottom of my tank and occasionally gets a rock in it's mouth and doesn't spit it out!!! I've just read that article by the Fishguy and I'm worried about my Phil. (the rocks are the colorful petstore kind) My Marine class at school is puting together a 55 gal tank for goldfish and plants with a more sandy bottom and I think I'll move Phil there when it gets finished (but that won't be for at least a mounth) is there anything I can do about the rocks he's already eaten? Also, will plants grow in Estes' Marine Sand (recomended by the article) or do they need fertilizer? the origional substrate I was going to order is called Seachem Flourite Gravel Substrate, (it's from the same site I'm ordering the plants from- Arizona Aquatic gardens) I was wondering if that would work too.
another problem...Phil also has lost some scales, and just today he broke a blood vesel in his dorsal fin. I think it's from the parasite infection I noticed today when I changed the water, (just started to treat it) but I'm not to sure, he's been slightly scaleless like that for a while. I don't want to move him into the new tank if he's sick, why would he be loosing scales?

[W_Oz]

First off - NO NO NO MARINE SAND!!! Marine sand is bad for freshwater systems. Seachem Flourite is a much better choice for a planted tank and if you're worried about him eating the stuff their Onyx Sand is a fine choice.

So.... how big is the gravel he's eaten?
What are his symptoms apart from a broken blood vessel? Does he have anything obviously hanging off of him, spots, or other anomylous growths? Abnormal behaviors?

Loss of scales could be from just rubbing against items in the tank, my Bala Sharks lost scales occationally from just bumping into driftwood. Are his scales pulling away from his body and pointing out like he's bloated?

How long has the tank been up, how big is it and what do you have going for filtration?

For the rocks he's eaten, there's not much you can do. Goldfish are pretty tough little buggers, just keep an eye on him and make sure he keeps eating.

I find it interesting that a Marine class is putting together a FW planted tank for goldies. Is this at a Highschool or University? I hope whoever is in charge of this has done their homework.

If your fish starts behaving differently or shows symptoms of something wrong, then is the time to worry and take action. If the fish looks healthy and acts healthy, it probably is healthy.

Best of luck with Phil!

[invadertoast]

Just wanted to chime in - I use Estes Marine sand in my betta tank, it's not live sand.

[OwnerOfPhil]

thanks for replying so fast!

is onyx sand good for plants too? if it is I'll go with that definitly

he's eating the pea-sized gravel, and I really havn't noticed a change in behavior, but my water has been really dirty lately, ever since August, when we left the tank for two mounths with an automatic feeder. I've been giving it more water changes and stuck 2 cory cats in there to clean it up, I also have a black moor who phil is buddys with and a 6-inch plecostomus thing and a little frog. the four of them were doing fine in there before but I don't know if the cory cats are crowding the tank now and stressing everyone out.

no his scales aren't pointing out, and this thank has been running since as long as I can rememder, I don't remember ever not having fish, I'm 18 now, it's been a long time, and we've used a power filter (the kind that makes a waterfall over the top of the tank)

I'm pretty sure that he's eaten rocks before, and maybe even regularly, he looks like he's choaking for a while after he's done it and I'm sitting there paniking until he starts acting normally again, he's still eating though, he could eat a horse every day.

I'm in highschool (12th grade) My marine class is run by a senile old guy who's never taught the class before, and I'm comepletely obsesed with fish so he put me in charge of getting the 55 gal tank up and running. that's all he really cares about, and I don't mind doing it. I've just put in a request for 300+ $ to get it together, and I've been reading up on it like crazy!! it's practicly all I think about, but it seams like everyday I learn something new (like about not using sand, for instance) and leads me to think that I may not know enough to do this thing by myself, because I pretty much am. I coordinate all of my class's actions and hand out responsibilities with the tank-to-be.

anyways, sorry for trailing on!

[Mvjnz]

It's pretty common for goldfish to eat the gravel if it fits in their mouth, so a general rule is to either use sand or gravel which is too big to fit in their mouth.

If he's acting normally and eating fine he should be fine. You could always remove the gravel and let him have a bare bottom tank for the next month until you move him.

[Holyvision]

Let him try to poop some of those out, and he'll learn...


...well, maybe. Goldfish aren't the smartest fish in the water.. :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

[OwnerOfPhil]

thanks! maybe I'll do that, but should I clean the rocks when I put them back? it's been in there so long that most of it is covered in algea, will that rot or something if taken out of the water for too long?

[Holyvision]

thanks! maybe I'll do that, but should I clean the rocks when I put them back? it's been in there so long that most of it is covered in algea, will that rot or something if taken out of the water for too long?

You should clean it with a vacuum, like a Python. Taking it out of the water can kill off the beneficial bacteria that has grown in it, which would lead to an ammonia spike in your tank, which would lead to fish stress and potential death! If you have to clean it, take your fish into a QT, lower the water down to about 10%, and clean it by hand by moving it around, then do a complete water change (quickly...) and repeat until clean. Make SURE you de-chlorinate the water when you change it, or you'll kill everything.

[OwnerOfPhil]

AHH!! I wish I had another tank to do that, I'd just stick Phil in it and leave him there so he can't eat the rocks anymore..he's been eating rocks for a while now, maybe another month won't kill him :( I hope

[Holyvision]

AHH!! I wish I had another tank to do that, I'd just stick Phil in it and leave him there so he can't eat the rocks anymore..he's been eating rocks for a while now, maybe another month won't kill him :( I hope

The easiest way it to vacuum the gravel with a siphon cleaner. You do a water change and clean at the same time.

The Python is seriously the best thing since the clear sided tank.

[Sounguru]

First off - NO NO NO MARINE SAND!!! Marine sand is bad for freshwater systems. Seachem Flourite is a much better choice for a planted tank and if you're worried about him eating the stuff their Onyx Sand is a fine choice.

So.... how big is the gravel he's eaten?
What are his symptoms apart from a broken blood vessel? Does he have anything obviously hanging off of him, spots, or other anomylous growths? Abnormal behaviors?

Loss of scales could be from just rubbing against items in the tank, my Bala Sharks lost scales occationally from just bumping into driftwood. Are his scales pulling away from his body and pointing out like he's bloated?

How long has the tank been up, how big is it and what do you have going for filtration?

For the rocks he's eaten, there's not much you can do. Goldfish are pretty tough little buggers, just keep an eye on him and make sure he keeps eating.

I find it interesting that a Marine class is putting together a FW planted tank for goldies. Is this at a Highschool or University? I hope whoever is in charge of this has done their homework.

If your fish starts behaving differently or shows symptoms of something wrong, then is the time to worry and take action. If the fish looks healthy and acts healthy, it probably is healthy.

Best of luck with Phil!

Phil - Estes Marine Sand is a brand name that is safe for both FW and SW.

Pool filter sand, Play Sand, Onyx sand, some sand blasting sands, and quite a few others are all safe but all have one major problem when it comes to live plants they are inert and have no minerals to leach out for the plants. So if you want to do live plants you will need root tabs and ferts to keep them healthy... But just to let you know most goldfish look at plants as a vegatarian looks at a salad ... all good and tasty.

I would go flourite myself but you will still need water column ferts.

[W_Oz]

Seachem Flourite Onyx Sand... inert... no minerals?

I'm talking about this stuff (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/OnyxSand.html).

Sorry about the Marine Sand, I've never heard of the stuff and I assumed it was like the live sand you can buy from various marine companies. =p

[Sounguru]

See there you go we have a brand of sand around here called Onyx Sand and it is inert.... not made by the same people....

So we both learned of some new products....:hmm3grin2orange:

[OwnerOfPhil]

The easiest way it to vacuum the gravel with a siphon cleaner. You do a water change and clean at the same time.

The Python is seriously the best thing since the clear sided tank.

I have one kinda like that but without the sink faucet vacuum thing, thats clever, I shall try and convince my mom to let me use her money to replace the one she just bought

I've just cleaned the tank again today, and the water cleared up a bit, but I don't know how long thats going to last. Phil's bloody fin has gotten worse but the fish guy says it might be due to the worms. I'll give the tank another worm treatment tomorow.

also, I think I will go with the onyx sand in the 55 gal tank only because I plan on feeding the goldfish sinking pellets and I don't want them to eat any little rocks (especially Phil!!) but then that makes me concerned about the plant fertilizer in the sand, will that hurt the fish if they are eating off the bottom?

[W_Oz]

Won't hurt'em a bit to munch on the Onxy Sand.

I hope Phil gets better and that your treatment works.

[Fishguy2727]

Estes' Marine Sand is not a true marine sand.

Secondly- goldfish do like a higher pH so even if it was a true marine sand, it would not be a problem for the goldfish at all.

Plants do very well in Estes' Marine Sand. It is the only substrate I use and all my tanks are planted. Please see my photobucket to see for yourself. I use Flourish Tabs, Flourish general supplement, and FLourish Iron. I have not used special pant substrates. The ones I have seen are too course for my taste and have not been necessary for me.

Try feeding peas or something like that to help flush out his digestive system.

[OwnerOfPhil]

Estes' Marine Sand is not a true marine sand.

Secondly- goldfish do like a higher pH so even if it was a true marine sand, it would not be a problem for the goldfish at all.

Plants do very well in Estes' Marine Sand. It is the only substrate I use and all my tanks are planted. Please see my photobucket to see for yourself. I use Flourish Tabs, Flourish general supplement, and FLourish Iron. I have not used special pant substrates. The ones I have seen are too course for my taste and have not been necessary for me.

Try feeding peas or something like that to help flush out his digestive system.

Thanks! I'm going to look into the sand right away, and the peas (take the skin off right?)
...looking...
I think what it will come down too is price, Este's looks about ten dollars cheaper for 30lbs but I've suddenly forgotten how many pounds the tank needs (it's 55 gal) Also, are all three FLourish products nessisary if I go with Este's? then I might go with Onxy if that means less in the way of fertilizer.

I meant to ask also, since I've never set up a planted tank before...but never mond I'll move it to the plant section...

[DragonGoby]

You're on the good way for establishing the tank: doing lots of research, and admitting that you need help is a really good begining! And if you want some good advise, try reading the Free Aquarium Ebook, at the left of this page...
You'll find plenty of information!

Good luck with Phil and keep us posted!

[Fishguy2727]

Special substrates are eventually drained of the nutrients they provide, it is not an infinite supply. Different tanks need different things. If I had more light I may need a carbon source, CO2 or Flourish Excel. I don't need much Iron, but some. The new banana plant leaves were coming in with dark veins and lighter tissue around the veins, a sign of inadequate iron. Since I started adding the iron I have not had this problem. It sounds worse than it is. It is just two liquids, real quick measure and add, and the tabs, every few months add some again. Feeding the fish is much more work.

[OwnerOfPhil]

Special substrates are eventually drained of the nutrients they provide, it is not an infinite supply. Different tanks need different things. If I had more light I may need a carbon source, CO2 or Flourish Excel. I don't need much Iron, but some. The new banana plant leaves were coming in with dark veins and lighter tissue around the veins, a sign of inadequate iron. Since I started adding the iron I have not had this problem. It sounds worse than it is. It is just two liquids, real quick measure and add, and the tabs, every few months add some again. Feeding the fish is much more work.

how much light do you have? the price estimate I submited to the science dept. didn't include a CO2 thing because the site I'm ordering the plants from says that it doesn't need one (http://www.azgardens.com/habitats_goldfish.php). I'm not sure how much light I could get for the tank, I was going to look at pet store stuff either tomorow or thursday, maybe go with whatever light comes with the lid. I was thinking 1.5 wpg because I read that that was a good number somewhere, the plant site says the plants require .7 and up (under 3.0). I really don't know what I'm doing is pretty much what I'm saying, should I move this to the plant forum?

[Fishguy2727]

I don't use any CO2 or Flourish Excel.

My lighting on my 75 is a standard 4' double fluorescent, both bulbs are Zoo Med's 50/50s (half 6500K for the plants, half actinic for a balanced, crisp white light overall). It is just under 1 wpg (I think 64 watts total). The cabomba has red tips up close to the top (a good sign), all the plants are doing quite well. I am not worried about going more advanced than where I am at now (not trying to get into CO2 or more lighting). It is not the best planted tank out there, but great for me. They grow and do well, that is all I am worried about. It sounds like that is what you are going for too.

[Commodore 64]

I don't use any CO2 or Flourish Excel.

My lighting on my 75 is a standard 4' double fluorescent, both bulbs are Zoo Med's 50/50s (half 6500K for the plants, half actinic for a balanced, crisp white light overall). It is just under 1 wpg (I think 64 watts total). The cabomba has red tips up close to the top (a good sign), all the plants are doing quite well. I am not worried about going more advanced than where I am at now (not trying to get into CO2 or more lighting). It is not the best planted tank out there, but great for me. They grow and do well, that is all I am worried about. It sounds like that is what you are going for too.

What's your photoperiod and do you have algae problems?

[Fishguy2727]

I have a gold nugget pleco and some amano shrimp, together they do a good job of keeping algae under control, there is VERY little in my tank. I do not have that tank on a timer, it goes on when I get up and off when I go to bed. So the photoperiod is probably about 15 hours.

[OwnerOfPhil]

really, thanks for all your help you guys, my list of things to figure out is getting way down there now. I'm a lot more comfortable with this 55 gal tank thing too, I'm just waiting for it to get the ok. oh! and I tested Phil's water and it's in the green, and he now eats peas. I'll let you know if he gets better or suddenly dies, but at least I'm not freiking out anymore

[W_Oz]

Let's hope less of the "suddenly dieing" thing.... Glad you got the answers you were looking for.

Good Luck!