Aquarium Maintenance - Please read

[Cichlid_Man]

Hello all and Happy New Year!
I wanted to post this in order to help everybody maintain their Malawi Cichlid tanks the very best way possible.
This also applies to other African Cichlids and other fish that MAY require the use of salts...NOT sodium....not aquarium salt, but mineral salts!
In life we all learn from mistakes, so by posting this, I hope to provide people with knowledge that I learned from making mistakes and just plain reading to much on the Internet.
Before I get into salts....
I have posted before that I increased my water changes from 25% weekly, to 75% weekly.
At first, what appeared to be the fish being more active and generally looking better, was actually the onset of a very serious disease called septicemia.
You can see blood where the fins join the body, and you also see red streaks in the fins and red blotches on various parts of the fish’s body. It is a tough disease to cure and can lead to dropsy and death.
The fish began to scrape along rocks and now have lost their color.
Septicemia is caused from poor water quality, but that doesn’t mean an un-kept tank.
Poor water quality also means ANYTHING causing the fish undo stress, along with impurities in the water that our test kits cannot test for.
Although breeders change out nearly 90% of the water daily, they do this with highly sophisticated equipment. The new water that they put in the tank is pre-treated with any salts or buffers or de-chlorinators they use, so that the fish feel no change in their environment whatsoever.
The temperature of the new water is exactly the same as the existing water in the tank also.
Another contributing factor to this disease is the use, or as I put it, the abuse of salts in a freshwater tank. Salt should ONLY be used when treating for a disease.
Constant use of salt as a general tonic for fish is a myth.
The fish actually can develop systemic problems, one of which is septicemia.
The fish also become used to the salt and when you want to treat a disease with salt, it doesn’t help.
What I mean by salt is aquarium or marine salt. These should not be used with any freshwater fish.
Fish like cichlids, that "require salt", require rift lake salt which is more a mineral...NOT SALT, or sodium chloride as we know it.
I would like to add this also.
If by chance you are already doing large water changes and have no problems, I am not saying to change what you are doing. What’s good for one is not always good for another. I have well water with a PH of about 6.0, so I cannot change out too much water at once without shocking my fish.
As a rule, a 25% water change weekly is the safest for your fish, and is sufficient.
I have also revised the frequency in which I clean my filter.
I clean it once a month, not once a week.
Too much of anything is no good.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. As I said….This is my opinion. There is a lot of controversy regarding how much water to change out, but large water changes should be left for the professional breeders, and salt doesn’t belong in a freshwater environment, only in Marine or brackish aquariums.

IMPORTANT...
IF YOU ARE CURRENTLY USING SALT IN YOUR FRESHWATER TANKS, PLEASE DO NOT JUST GO AND DISCONTINUE IT ABRUPTLY.
DO YOUR WEEKLY WATER CHANGES, AND JUST DON'T ADD ANY SALT BACK.
WHAT I SAY IS FOR FRESHWATER FISH ONLY.
BRACKISH AND MARINE TANKS DO REQUIRE SALT.
CICHLIDS REQUIRE RIFT OR CICHLID LAKE SALT WHICH IS A MINERAL SALT, NOT SODIUM CHLORIDE

[jeffs99dime]

this is one of the reasons i went with a reverse osmosis filter. i still conduct large w.c.'s, but it's over the course of hours on the "drip" refill. good thread cichlidman!

[Cichlid_Man]

Thanks Jeff.
I should have went with my heart, ya know?
I never did large changes until I just read too much.
My fish are coming along OK now, but it is a tough disease to beat.
I have been meaning to get an R.O. system, but right after christmas is tough.

You continue what you are doing if it is working for you.
Have a good day!

[jeffs99dime]

glad to see everything's working out for you!! this thread, in my opinion, should be made into an article. very informative

[Fishguy2727]

There are some 'freshwater' fish that require some salt. There are other species that require certain types of salt like anything from the african rift lakes. It is not as cut and dry as 'freshwater = no salt'. The most important thing is that you mimic their natural habitat and since many freshwater environments include salts, you must mimic that.

As far as large water changes go, every tank is different. Some only need 10% weekly, others none. Many are way overstocked and need 90% three times a week for the fish to not feel any adverse chemical affects from the stocking level. The main key in determining MINIMUM water change routine is nitrate levels, which should be kept at no more than 40ppm, preferably no more than 20ppm. For some tanks that means 25% weekly, for others it is 25% twice a week, for others it is 10% a month. There is no set minimum water change schedule.

In the aquarium hobby there are many unknown factors. One case would be a very peaceful tank where the fishkeeper never sees any chasing or nipping going on, yet some fish have tattered fins. A closer look at that scenario reveals that the little peaceful catfish under that log is actually charles manson at night when the fish are half asleep and helpless. Thsi case just needs a little outside of the box thinking to realize that not all the fish in that peaceful setup are peaceful. There are tons of factors that we can't observe and many of them can usually have a huge affect on our fish as stressors.

I do not believe that the large water changes alone were what caused your fishes' current issues. If they initially became more active and looked better it obviously was not doing that much harm. I think that the increase in water changes helped, but something else happened to hit them at about the same time that was not as obvious if observable at all. If everything stays the same except for one thing and then they are more active and better looking, obviously that change was not the stressor. My opinion and experience tells me that there was something else that was stressing them. Most likely the water changes helped, then not too long after that something started to have a negative affect on them at which point they started to go downhill.

[Lady Hobbs]

I have to wonder about well water at times. I posted in another thread that when living in FL I had to have a purifying system on my well water coming into the house as the water there is horrible.

What if I person lives near farmland or industrial sites or county landfills. Couldn't comtamiments leech into the water source? Farms use lots of manure and other fertilizers so how much of that is going into well water systems? We just don't know.

When I read your fish had septicemia I was very concerned as it is incurable to treat in most cases and I know how you love your fish and the good care you gave them.

I would be concered with the large water changes due to the pH always needing adjusting. You are not supposed to change the pH more than .5 in 24 hours. That's my only drawback in getting cichlids. I would think all the water being replaced would have to be treated with pH adjuster prior to being added so they don't go thru drastic changes constantly....as you say the breeders do.

Are large water changes different using well water than city water? Who can say. But in staying on the safe side, perhaps changing less would be better if in doubt. Who's the say that all that activity seen after water changes is not due to happiness but rather stress?

I stick near the 35% mark myself altho I have done large water changes due to problems with the water but then, I also don't have to adjust pH. Certainly that up and down effect can't be all that great for them.

Your post was excellent and is definately something that should be considered.

[jeffs99dime]

I have to wonder about well water at times. I posted in another thread that when living in FL I had to have a purifying system on my well water coming into the house as the water there is horrible.

What if I person lives near farmland or industrial sites or county landfills. Couldn't comtamiments leech into the water source? Farms use lots of manure and other fertilizers so how much of that is going into well water systems? We just don't know.

When I read your fish had septicemia I was very concerned as it is incurable to treat in most cases and I know how you love your fish and the good care you gave them.

I would be concered with the large water changes due to the pH always needing adjusting. You are not supposed to change the pH more than .5 in 24 hours. That's my only drawback in getting cichlids. I would think all the water being replaced would have to be treated with pH adjuster prior to being added so they don't go thru drastic changes constantly....as you say the breeders do.

Are large water changes different using well water than city water? Who can say. But in staying on the safe side, perhaps changing less would be better if in doubt. Who's the say that all that activity seen after water changes is not due to happiness but rather stress?

I stick near the 35% mark myself altho I have done large water changes due to problems with the water but then, I also don't have to adjust pH. Certainly that up and down effect can't be all that great for them.

Your post was excellent and is definately something that should be considered.
HOBBS
i'd be interested to know what your phosphate levels are in your well water from the tap. my brother and my cousin both have extraordinarily high levels. they both live in completely different areas in my state. i would just be interested to know how your is too. i'm wondering if there's a trend. thanks hobbs, jeff

[Fishguy2727]

I do big water changes using buffers. I use one for 8.2 for my Lake Malawi peacocks and one for 6.5 for my discus. I put the buffer in right where the water is flowing into the tank so the water is hitting the buffer before flowing to the rest of the tank. It sits on the gravel or sand and slowly dissolves as the new water is being added. I have tested both tanks before, during, and after water changes and it stays the same the whole time, no abrupt changes or even shifts.

[Lady Hobbs]

OK. Was wondering how that was done.

[Lady Hobbs]

i'd be interested to know what your phosphate levels are in your well water from the tap. my brother and my cousin both have extraordinarily high levels. they both live in completely areas in my state. i would just be interested to know how your is too. i'm wondering if there's a trend. thanks hobbs, jeff

?????
I don't have well water. Don't confuse me so early in the morning.

[jeffs99dime]

Originally Posted by hobbs
I have to wonder about well water at times. I posted in another thread that when living in FL I had to have a purifying system on my well water coming into the house as the water there is horrible.
i was thinking you did have well water by this. my mistake. i misread it.lol

[Lady Hobbs]

Jeff, I don't know what my phosphate levels are. I am on city water. I had well water when I lived in FL.

[jeffs99dime]

yeah. i saw that. that's why i said "my mistake" in my last post. lol:thumb:

[Lady Hobbs]

Does anyone really know that much about septicemia and the causes for it? Very little is on the net about it actually only that it's caused by water conditions and not easy to cure. I ran across one article that said a fish can be a "carrier" of the disease on one site but now can't find where I read that and have not seen that information anywhere else.

I also read it's not uncommon with deep sea fish. Maybe William knows about this disease. I'll ask.

[Lady Hobbs]

From William
I am sorry to hearr about your fish/problems cichlid_man
I don't know much about the disease in question as it is rare and my fish never suffered from it. I do know that it is caused by bacteria in the blood stream and that it is very letal. treatment must be initiated early or the fish will die. It is usually a secondary disease caused by the presence of another disease but can also be caused by poor water quality. (as well as other factors that can affect the health of a fish.) It is hard to treat as it is an internal diseases. It can cause dropsy (dropsy like symptoms). Can be treated with antibiotica (broad spectrum) which can be hard to get a hold of on a day like this or Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride Powder. However when the disease is diagnosable it might allready be to late. Some salt in the water can help prevent related problem by keeping the fluid levels in the fish stable.

The only positive information I can give is that the disease often doesn't spread that easy and some/many of your fish might manage to stay healhty through the outbreak. I was not able to visit the forum (bad connection) so I don't know your exact situation or if I'm just restating stuff that allready has been said in the thread.

/William


William having have internet problems again so posted his message to you via email.

[Cichlid_Man]

William,
Thanks for the post!
My fish are actually doing better.
I had used Furan2, then switched to salt, and maybe with the combination, the blood streaks are gone...at least for now.

Reptilguy...
Only time I ever had to outright disagree with you.
It is as cut and dry as "Freshwater, no salt.

ONE EXCEPTION...
The exception is IF YOUR FISH WERE WILD CAUGHT.
Other than that, nobody's Cichlid ever saw the likes of Lakw Malawi, Tanganyika, Victoria or any other lake.
They nevr had salt, they don't need it.
As far as the water changes, I did post that "to each his own"
Every tank is different, as is the water conditions from the tap.

I did lots of reading about septicemia, and the constant fluctuation in PH caused by large water changes can and will cause the disease.

My well water must have something in it that damaged the fish.
The county is doing a test as we speak.

25% water changes are what I do now as before. My fish didn't have to get sick.
Again I say...If you are doing large changes with no ill effects...by all means, do not change what you are doing.

Here is a long article from a guy I consider the best aqurium hobbyist.
This regards salt use. Pay attention to the last line
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[blue fin]

Great post everyone, thanks for the information, I will cut back on water changes once I've kicked my algae bloom issues, in the meantime I'll keep the changes to the lower amount of water necessary to keep it at bay.

[Fishguy2727]

These fish may have been bred in captivity, but physiologically they are rift lake cichlids. They are made to function in waters with high pHs and trace salt levels. They will not die outright on you if you stop doing these things, they are tough fish. But the long term affects will bring them down. Not as good of colors, max size not reached, shorter lifespan, etc. You do not change a fish's physiology in a few generations of captive breeding, they are still made for rift lake water parameters. When my fish were in the LFS I work at, they did not have salts or the right pH, within days of being in my tank their colors had improved, one female was already holding eggs, and they all started a growth spurt. That tells me that although they still looked great at my work, the water there was holding them back. If you choose to not use salt or buffer for your tanks, that is your choice, but please do not tell others to not do the right thing for their fish. Salt is bad for most fw fish, but there are a select few that need it to truly thrive, and the rift lake cichlids are one of them.

I still do not believe that the salts or large water changes had anything to do with the septicemia. They did better when you started them on that, you stated that. Sometime after that they started to go down, showing that it was a separate issue. If your tap water was contaminated even a small water change could have introduced it and started to cause problems in your tank.

That article talks about general use of NaCl in all fw tanks or as a disease treatment. If it said to not use the PROPER salts on rift lake cichlids please let me know where it was because I missed it. I read through tons of articles exactly like that when I changed my mind from all fw tanks should have a little salt to my current view that almost all should not. Mollies should get it, as do other semi-brackish fish, rift lake species should get it, and probably a few others but those are the only ones that come to mind. Every fw environment is different and blanket statements in this hobby can be lethal to those dependant on us for their survival.

[Drumachine09]

What if I person lives near farmland or industrial sites or county landfills. Couldn't comtamiments leech into the water source? Farms use lots of manure and other fertilizers so how much of that is going into well water systems? We just don't know.


I would be shifty about the water if you lived on a rural area with well water. The most common fertilizer is potassium nitrate, which would lead to a high concentrate of nitrates in your tank, leading to an increased growth of algea.

[Cichlid_Man]

I just want to make one last post about this..

The reason I wrote the original post here was due to the fact that my fish suffered from massive water changes.

It was for information only, not to argue or make people change the way they do things.
If you are already doing large water changes with no issues, then by all means do them.

About the salt.
I know of no LFS that uses salt on their fresh water fish.
At least my LFS doesn't anyway.
So, if the fish never had salt, and you start adding it, you are wasting your money and also causing fish long term harm.
If the fish should become sick, salt won't help them if they are always in salt.

I learned something else over the holidays about breeders doing 90% water changes daily.
There is one reason and only one reason they do this.
Their tanks are WAY over-stocked. Over-stocking decreases aggression and promotes breeding.
The 90% changes are needed due to over-stocking, not because they believe in large water changes.

If you want to do large changes, I would strongly suggest that you do a series of 25% changes. Set a schedule like Monday Wednesday and Friday.
Then you have done a 75% change over several days.

BTW-I got my water results back from the county and they are picture perfect...no high phosphates or anything else damaging to aquarium life.
I personally do not think it is my well water because I have 2 tanks.

Only the Cichlid tank has a problem, which is now under control...

I'm done!

[Fishguy2727]

I would still like to know how they suffered when you said they improved when you started doing them, showing it was not that. Small changes won't keep nitrates down the way one big one will, so they are not equivalent. Just because your LFS also neglects the fishes' needs does not mean you should too, and again this is because these fish are too hardy for their own good.

Breeders do big water changes to keep water quality high, overstocked fish are less likely to breed successfully than those stocked low or medium. The breeder I got some of my discus form had one pair in a 60 gallon that still got huge water changes, so a pair of discus in a 60 is overstocked? By what you say as long as they are captive bred we don't have to worry about what waters they are natural to. So I guess I can stop worrying about hardness and pH for my discus because they are captive bred and let them sit in my hard 8.0 tap.

I see exactly what you mean, but I am tryign to help you see that your water change schedule and the salt did not harm them, it was somethign else even if you or I cannot find it. rift lake cichlids NEED the proper salts in the proper low dosing, it is part of their physiology. The cichlids in the LFSs do not grow or have the colors they should if they had the right water and food.

[f1oored]

African lake cichlids need salt in the water to be at their healthiest. Just because they have never had it while at a pet store doesn't mean they won't benefit from it. That’s like taking a kid from the inner city where the air is always polluted and moving him to the country where the air is clean. Just because he is use to the polluted air doesn't mean clean air is going to hurt him. Humans will do better with clean air, and african cichlids will do better with salted water. Just because they are use to it doesn't mean it's good for them.

Also I fail to understand how the water quality can get worse by water changes. If your well water is crapy to start then it's not going to improve when it's in the tank for a week, it's just going to get worse. As long as you are doing water changes properly there should be no ill effects. On well water it is possible that some unknown chemical leached into the well making the water worse one week opposed to the week before but for those of us on city water (or well water that remains constant) large frequent water changes are a good thing.

[Fishguy2727]

That was one thing I was thinking, it may have been contaminated short term or by something they did not test for. I like the clean air analogy.

[kimmers318]

Well, this has been a very interesting post to follow for the last few days when I have managed to "pop" in for a few minutes.

Cichlid man....do what you feel is best for your fishy children, you are the one daily observing. I have been thru similar circumstances that have made me start to question all the information I have read over the last year, and have thus made some changes to my tanks and all seems well.

One of the first fish hubby and I wanted were clown loaches....we couldn't wait to raise these beautiful fish from little itty bitty babies to the tank busters we knew they could become. Having read they are sensitive to all kinds of issues, I started with some and upped my water changes, lowered my ph, fed them all the right foods, and still kept consistently losing them. I would lose one, get another, and time and again they would seem to thrive and then just get skinny and die. My next route was that they have internal parasites as they are imported....so the next batch got treated with meds. Still lost 2 of the 3. The last 3 purchased have been fine. And you know what.....I have returned to my old water change schedule.....I no longer soften my water.....(ph of 8 out of the tap).....because I finally thru up my hands and said "I give up". I spent months purchasing RO water, checking it before using it, checking the tank every other day or so, checking after water changes etc. and I was doing everything the "experts" told me to....yet I still kept losing clown loaches. I had finally said they weren't for me when hubby purchased the last 4, and so far they have been going strong, showing no signs of skinny disease and eating like pigs. The tank gets about 25% every 7-10 days water change.

The other situation refers to salt in the water. My 20 gal was set up as a Q tank, I kept my platy's in there to keep it cycled, and would pull the fry out as I got them. I was Q'ing 2 dwarf gourami who were doing quite well, and were just about to go to my big tank when my female german blue ram was beat up by my male and I moved her into the Q tank to heal. I did not know that either she already was sick, or became sick after the stress, but caught a little too late that she had some type of infection that showed no outward symptoms other than slowing down and dying. Had to assume it was something internal/bacterial so I treated the tank with meds. Since I had also read SO much about salt being a good treatment I decided to try that after the round of meds because I had lost my GBR and was looking at losing my gourami. I used a very small concentration, about 1/2 of what was recommended and the fish went absolutely nuts swimming around like freaks. I quickly did a water change and all calmed down. In the end, I still lost one of my gourami. One trip with salt in my tank and seeing what happened to my fish was enough to turn me away. I used Doc Wellfish's aquarium salt, as that was what we bought when my daughter decided to try mollies.....mollies need salt....well, guess what....the molllies didn't live very long at all...a couple of days. I originally thought it was just bad luck, and unhealthy mollies....now I have to wonder.

I too have gone thru the whole scenario of contacting my water supplier....William has seen me post the readings here. Could not find any reason why salt reacted so badly in my water for my fish. Couldn't find any reason for my clown loaches to keep dying.

Hubby has a 75 gal mbuna tank set up. He did use the proper substrate for them, but does not, nor never has, added salt. The colors are great....and the demasoni and acei keep giving us babies. We now have more babies than we can handle and a friend will be soon setting up a 75 and taking them to start off her tank. Those are the only ones we know are "pairs" as it is often hard to sex these guys...but something must be going right for them to be delivering all of the time.

This is not to say that salt, large water changes, and RO water that you buffer yourself, won't work for some.....but it does show that it doesn't always work for everyone and all fish. A wise person I met here often said "what works for me, may not work for you" and that holds true in these situations. Salt does not work in my water, nor does large water changes. My nitrates stay safe, I have fish that give me babies and my tanks look great. What more could a fishy mom ask for?

[Cichlid_Man]

Thanks Kimmers, F1oored and Reptileguy.

OK...
If you read correctly, Reptileguy, I said the fish have NOW improved since I stopped salt and large changes, or did I not post that properly.
They GOT SICK soon after the large water changes started.

The link I provided to you regarding salt is written by someone involved with fish longer than anybody here and salt is not required.

The LFS is not negelcting their fish and it was a real low blow stating that I do.

Septic tanks cannot leak uphill either...
I build homes. The first 2 things a builder learns is that hot water is on the left, cold on the right, and crap doen't go uphill.
Sorry for that. But you need to understand before you throw stones at me.

You don't want to trust experts, then I will not provide any links any longer.
I started this thread to help those NOT to make a mistake that I made.
For God's sake, even William had to intervene the last time you posted about large changes and he agreed they are not for all to do.

I also posted in this thread that I got the results back from the county on my well water, and it is NOT CRAPPY.

My fish are fine now thanks to my caring, not neglect.

Ciao!

[Fishguy2727]

The well doesn't go down only 20 feet, it will be below the level at which the septic sits and discharges. So in general the groundwater will go in the direction of what is downhill on the surface (keep in mind groundwater does not sit at the same level as the surface of the ground) and away from the well so that there is no contamination. But if there is not a lot of water being added to the groundwater the well can cause a cone-shaped dip in the groundwater that can actually pull water in the opposite direction than normal. It is not flowing uphill since the actual surface of the ground doesn't dictate the surface or direction of flow for groundwater. This means that the well can actually pull in contaminated groundwater from the septic tank discharge. That is from college level geology taken only a couple semesters ago.

Did they test for everything that could possibly affect your fish? Did you have a sample from when you were doing the big water changes and when this started so they could test that? Groundwater is not the same all the time. What may have affected it at one point could have changed over time. What affects it this week may not affect it next week. I have not re-read all this, but if it started as soon as you did big water changes, fine.

LFSs do not take the best care of the fish as possible, especially when their africans have to go on the same system as other types of fish that cannot tolerate the same high pH, hardness, and trace salts. That is why I feel that basing the care of fish at home on the LFS's is not a good idea. Go by the books. The books I read recently on Lake Malawi cichlids did not say not to use the proper salts, they said to use them and buffers to get the ideal environment for these fish. But I guess that published book authors do not count as much as online articles. I will go by the books, my experience and online info. From these things I firmly believe that replicating the natural water chemistry for these fish is essential.

[f1oored]

I'm glad your septic tank is downhill from your well. The water can't run uphill but it can run down. If you have a large body of water for the well it is possible that it runs under your septic tank. You see wells don't typically pull water from the first 3 feet of dirt. Usually they need to go a little deeper than that so if your well is deeper than you septic tank there is a possiblity. However, I never said anything about septic tanks in my original post.

Heavy rain usually disrupts water quality for a few days. Who knows what chemicals farmers around you are using and what might have ended up in your well. I rememeber reading several articles during my micro class about bacteria levels in water after large amounts of rain.

I'm not throwing stones but try to realize that your advice that large water changes should be avoided can not and should not be applied across the board. It's the same with salt. Some noob is going to read your post and only do 10% weekly water changes on an overstocked cichlid tank and his nitrates are going to sky rocket.

Your methods, while they may work for you, are not the norm for african cichlid. If you are happy with your results that is great but most experts suggest large water changes and salt.

BTW Many LFS do neglect their fish badly. Most people here will agree that LFS are not a good source of information and often do things that are not ideal for the fish.

[Cichlid_Man]

Rep,
I know the well goes down more than 20 feet. My well is drilled 350 feet down.
What I am saying is that any septic runoff cannot go in that direction at all.
I am on 145 acres.
The well is in the front on a hill. (mountain).
The septic tank is in the back of the house and in case of over-flow, there are several drain fields to direct the water down and off into a huge field below near the river.
My septic has a pump in it. It cannot come up a hill.
I wish I could show you.
Anyway, nothing I posted was meant to cause any problems, OK?
We all read and try to do the best for our fish. My LFS is a good mom and pop place. They know their breeders and ask if they are to salt fish or not.
The only fish they salt are marine and brackish fish. Their cichlids have lake salt in the tanks and proper PH for buffering.
I want to clarify something there too.
When I talk about salt, I talk about aquarium salt or marine salt. Cichlids do not need that.
Now, I do use something called Cichlid Lake salt. It is made up of Calcium, Aluminum, Magnesium, Potassium, Iodine, Iron, and very small traces of sodium.
It is not salt as we know it.
Malawi is not brackish. It is a freshwater lake with traces of mineral salt...not sodium.
I hope this puts that to rest.
Cichlids do need mineral salt, but not sodium. Big difference.
And, the cichlid lake salt is used so sparingly (3/4 tsp per 10 gallons), there is so little actual sodium going in there. The whole bottle I have only has 3% sodium and it treats 3800 gallons.
I did read your post and I see that you are saying the same thing as me.
OK...not salt...mineral salt.
As far as what you read, I read books too. I have been for 40 years.
The online articles are from people who have written books also.
How do you think I know of them?
I know what I am doing or I wouldn't post it.
No fish fatalities since I started with cichlids in May of 2006.
Not many can say that.

[GynMonkey1044]

How can you say that a captive cichlid does not need salt? Does a captive Discus need a ph between 6 and 7 or does it do great at 8? Does a captive clown fish not need to be in salt water? Having the salt is apart of their natural being. A captive bred Discus will not live in hard water with a high ph, different fish have different requirements captive or not.

[f1oored]

I think everyone was talking about rift lake salt in the case of african cichlids. I think we are all on the same page regarding that issue now.

[Cichlid_Man]

How can you say that a captive cichlid does not need salt? Does a captive Discus need a ph between 6 and 7 or does it do great at 8? Does a captive clown fish not need to be in salt water? Having the salt is apart of their natural being. A captive bred Discus will not live in hard water with a high ph, different fish have different requirements captive or not.

They need mineral salt, not salt.
Big difference.
I use Cichlid Lake Salt which is made up of mostly minerals.
I posted that. YES>>>THEY NEED MINERAL SALT, but NOT MARINE OR AQUARIUM SALT.

[Cichlid_Man]

I think everyone was talking about rift lake salt in the case of african cichlids. I think we are all on the same page regarding that issue now.

Thanks F1oored.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I am just trying to make things easier on beginners, or anybody interested.
My one and only issue with my well is the drastic change in PH that the fish go through if I do large water changes.
I would basically have to keep a 75 gallon holding tank if I wanted to change out 75% at a time.
I cannot take out a little water, then add some buffer, etc.
The fish still feel the impact on PH dropping from 8.2 to somewhere around 7.2
I do 25% weekly.
If I need to do more, I will increase the frequency, not the amount of water, thus less stress...FOR MY FISH...that doesn't mean everybody.

[Fishguy2727]

Yes, but if I remember righht you always said they don't need salt. And Cichlid Lake Salt is a salt, so a newby reading what you typed would think salt in general is a bad idea. That is why it needed clarifying, yet you never brought up that you meant 'mineral salt' until very recently. No fish needs freshwater salt. Rift lakes cichlids need the proper salts, mollies in general do much better with a little bit of marine salt, brackish need the proper levels of marine salt. I still think you could do big water changes proeprly, especially since you are using a python. As i said I have tested before, during, and after a water change and it is always 8.2 in my peacock tank and 6.5 in my discus tank, so there should not be any fluctuation. I'm not telling you to change your ways, just that it can be done without fluctuations if doen right. If you add all the buffer when you start to fill and put it right where the water will be coming in to the tank it should not fluctuate at all. If you choose to keep up with your current schedule that is your choice, good luck to your fish.

[Cichlid_Man]

OK Reptileguy,
Go ahead and keep trashing me without reading.
I edited my original post even though it didn't need it. I assumed you, of all people, would know what I meant.
First off, Cichlid Lake Salt has only 3% sodium in the entire quart bottle that treats over 3800 gallons. Everything else in there are minerals.
You only add 3/4 of a teaspoon to TEN GALLONS...I even went as far as putting a drop on my finger and tasting it and there is NO taste of salt, much unlike when you add aqaurium salt.
You have your ways, and I have mine.
My fish are very healthy now that I am back on schedule.
You want to talk about remembering things we say?
OK, I read posts about your fish getting hole in head disease.
I also read posts about 3 cichlids dying and you didn't know what did it.
You even said you had to replace them.
I started my cichlid setup in May as I said, with ZERO fatalities, and one illness brought on by large water changes.
Maybe that is what caused your fish deaths?
Now, Back off!
It's time to go to the moderator with this one...
My post is a good, informative post.

[Nautilus29]

REP.....Come on quite trying to throw your way down his throat. I did not here CM say reptileguy you are doing every thing wrong and you suck at keeping fish. so quite telling him that.

Obviously there was a problem with what cichlidman was doing before. The big water changes werent working for him. He quite doing them and its helped his fish. So your way doesnt work for him.

Like he and everyone else has said here. EVERYONE does things differently. What works for you may not work for everyone else. Like for me i couldnt do 75% water changes in the conditions that i have here. It would take too long to heat up all that water and i just dont have the space to have that much water sitting around. For you it works thats great.

Im sorry REP im not trying to come down on you but stay off of cichlidman he was just trying to help people out since he had this problem. He wasnt going against you; he was telling people what didnt work for him.

[Fishguy2727]

It is important to know what exactly is being talked about and it sounded like you were calling cichlid lake salt by salt. And even if I knew what you meant, not everyone did. And if anyone could read that and think that these species don't need the proper lake salts, it needed to be addressed. I think it is very important to have cichlid lake salt in a rift lake cichlid setup. I agree 100% that freshwater salt should not be in any tank, maybe for treating an illness, but even then I personally don't use it for that even. Why are you focusing on sodium? If there is sodium in the lakes it should be in the tanks, at the same proportion to other salts and in the same concentration found naturally.

All I am trying to say at this point is that the reasons it didn't work for him don't sound right to me, it should have been fine. I even said I was not trying to get him to change, just that it should work even better.

Fish keeping is not an exact known science, and bringing up problems I have had unrelated to the issue (my jag's HITH) is a low blow in my book. This is a place to share and feel comfortable and for all of us to grow in our fishkeeping abilities and pointing out a case of a very common but misunderstood condition in my tanks is a low blow. And as far as deaths in my african cichlid tank, two were well known, it was the rockwork. One scraped itself up really bad on the rockwork and was dead the next day. The other got stuck between a rock and the glass in a way that forced its operculum closed. The third time was unknown, and considering that this ia a new tank (everyone still settling in) with varying sizes due to varying growth rates, territorial species, and some being stressed by the more established males, a single death may or may not have had anything to do with me. It could have been carrying something all along, or another one just kept beating up on it. I see these fish everyday, I watch them when I do big water changes, they aren't stressful for my fish at all. Maybe it's because they are used to them, maybe I add my buffers in a different way, who knows. But I know that the big water changes are not hurting them. And I replaced them because I had room in my tank and found good fish, and I still room and will add when I find more good fish.

And just for the record, these types of threads are a good thing. It forces both sides to dissect the pros and cons of both sides, really focus on them and see which is truly better. I have learned many things in high debate threads like this that I wouldn't have learned if I just read and went on without questioning. That is another thing, this was a good debate. It was not an argument and the last thing I ever want to do is argue. As long as everyone stays on topic and sticks to the issue and its details, it is a debate. As soon as it becomes an attack on the other person, it is an argument.

[NorthernBoy]

Ok this is how this works. You three are morons and I'll tell you why. (Here comes the MOD thrashing)
As stated many many times before in this and other threads WHAT WORKS FOR YOU MAY NOT WORK FOR OTHERS!!! I am not sure why a simple disagreement needs to escalate into a battle but you three need to obviously do less reading on fish and more on online forum etiquette!!!

Now for my opinion:

Salts are a in my opinion necessary to a rift tank. Both mineral salts and aquarium salt are required in a rift tank. The salts not only help to simulate the "natural" enviroment but also help to raise the kH and gH whick will aide in controling the pH. It sounds as though the What is salt question has been cleared up in the last few posts. But all salts are minerals or composed of mineral. Table salt, kosher salt, gyptsum salt, marine salt etc-all minerals. CM is partially correct in stateing that the fish at the lfs don't use salt or the breeders. I buy some fish from the LFS but also direct from the LFS's breeders (because I am in a local aquarium society and know the breeders and the fish are cheaper from them). I know for a fact that most use salts in all thier tanks. The few that don't simply say they don't think it is necessary although those that do think that they have the heathier and larger groups of fry. But again as kimmers said, she doesn't use salts and has had great success. So there you go....

As far as water changes: After keeping fish for many years I have realized that you can over do it as well as under do it. 75% water changes (IMO) is way too drastic. Although it is possible that REP and F1oored cannot afford proper filteration and that is what they need to do to maintain healthy water. I have great filteration and also do monitor my water quality and have found that for me a weekly 30% is sufficient. If your water gives you a reading of 0 amm. 0 nitrites and less than 20 ppm nitrate why in the world would you stress your fish out more by doing a 75% water change. This seems at least to as overkill. But like I said if it works for you who am I to tell you otherwise.

Please remain calm and remember to whether you use salt in you tanks or not you do need to take the opinions of others on the forum..................... "With a grain of Salt!":ezpi_wink1:

[William]

Well I was planning to delete most of this post due to the feelings it has stirred up but after reading everything in it I found that is actually is quite an interested thread that covers a number of interesting questions and well written posts even if they are fuelled by heated emotions. And valuable information that might have turned out not to be relevant to this case but valuable none the less. A large part of it apparently due to a misunderstanding about which type of salt you where talking about. (Which raises an important point; always try to ask yourself if the other part is trying to argue against what you are saying or if they (or both of you) are misunderstanding each other? And make sure that you read everything that the other member is writing to avoid misunderstandings). I therefore choose not to delete this thread. Now to address this post

First of let me say that it is nice to hear that that your fish is improving. Now on to some of the arguments in this thread.

Regarding salt. Yes it is a big difference between mineral salt and regular salt so make sure to say mineral salt when you mean mineral salt. Regular salt is used by many aquarium stores as it helps keep the fish healthy in less than ideal condition but is not necessary in well kept aquariums. I do however recommend against using salt when it isn’t needed as it is better that you all learn to keep good water quality rather than just to hide the effects of poor water quality. This does however not mean that is bad to use salt in freshwater aquariums. Only a very low number of species such as certain catfish and freshwater rays takes damage from low aquarium salt amounts in the water.

Malawi cichlids needs mineral salts and does not need aquarium salt even if aquarium salt can be a great help in keeping Malawi cichlids for the reasons described above by northernboy.

As for water changes. Different methods works for different persons, in different setups and with different water source. Some can need to make large water changes while the same procedure can be dangerous in other setups. Large water changes are not recommendable for beginners as they lack the understanding of water chemistry etc to be able to do water changes this big. Large water changes can also be a bad idea if your tap water is very different from the water in your tank, i.e. if a lot of water preparation is needed. On the other hand large water changes can be a necessity in large aquarium with a large biomass. An example of this is many Asian aquariums that are housing large predatory fish. These setups would be impossible without good filtration and large water changes. If small water changes is enough to keep your water quality up and ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels down than stick to small changes as they are less risky. However if small water changes can't do it for you you'll have to make more frequent or larger changes.

As for the statement: "And even if I knew what you meant, not everyone did." If a situation arise when you think you know what someone mean but that there is a risk for confusion. Write a response saying "I assume you mean "clearification"", and than continue. This is not targeted towards you "Reptileguy" but to all members. Also if you think members are misunderstanding eachother, please post a post letting them know that you believe they are talking about two different things. That way it can be resolved faster and with less emotion.

I am sure I forgot to mention something that I meant to say in this post as I thought of a lot of things while reading through this post. But I think I remembered the main point.

Let's now try to forgive each other and stay friends in the future.

[jeffs99dime]

Well I was planning to delete most of this post due to the feelings it has stirred up but after reading everything in it I found that is actually is quite an interested in threads that covers a number of interesting questions and well written posts even if they are fuelled by heated emotions. A large part of it apparently due to a misunderstanding about which type of salt you where talking about. (Which raises an important point; always try to ask yourself if the other part is trying to argue against what you are saying or if they (or both of you) are misunderstanding each other? And make sure that you read everything that the other member is writing to avoid misunderstandings). I therefore choose not to delete this thread. Now to address this post

First of let me say that it is nice to hear that that your fish is improving. Now on to some of the arguments in this thread.

Regarding salt. Yes it is a big difference between mineral salt and regular salt so make sure to say mineral salt when you mean mineral salt. Regular salt is used by many aquarium stores as it helps keep the fish healthy in less than ideal condition but is not necessary in well kept aquariums. I do however recommend against using salt when it isn’t needed as it is better that you all learn to keep good water quality rather than just to hide the effects of poor water quality. This does however not mean that is bad to use salt in freshwater aquariums. Only a very low number of species such as certain catfish and freshwater rays takes damage from low aquarium salt amounts in the water.

Malawi cichlids needs mineral salts and does not need aquarium salt even if aquarium salt can be a great help in keeping Malawi cichlids for the reasons described above by northernboy.

As for water changes. Different methods works for different persons, in different setups and with different water source. Some can need to make large water changes while the same procedure can be dangerous in other setups. Large water changes are not recommendable for beginners as they lack the understanding of water chemistry etc to be able to do water changes this big. Large water changes can also be a bad idea if your tap water is very different from the water in your tank, i.e. if a lot of water preparation is needed. On the other hand large water changes can be a necessity in large aquarium with a large biomass. An example of this is many Asian aquariums that are housing large predatory fish. These setups would be impossible without good filtration and large water changes. If small water changes is enough to keep your water quality up and ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels down than stick to small changes as they are less risky. However if small water changes can't do it for you you'll have to make more frequent or larger changes.

As for the statement: "And even if I knew what you meant, not everyone did." If a situation arise when you think you know what someone mean but that there is a risk for confusion. Write a response saying "I assume you mean "clearification"", and than continue. This is not targeted towards you "Reptileguy" but to all members. Also if you think members are misunderstanding eachother, please post a post letting them know that you believe they are talking about two different things. That way it can be resolved faster and with less emotion.

I am sure I forgot to mention something that I meant to say in this post as I thought of a lot of things while reading through this post. But I think I remembered the main point.

Let's now try to forgive each other and stay friends in the future.

this should be made a sticky!!!!! --jeff

[Fishguy2727]

NorthernBoy: I find it hard to believe I am underfiltering any of my tanks. It even says in my signatire, "You never have too much filtration." My 55 discus tank has a Fluval 304 and 2 Whisper 60s, my 150 peacock tank has a Fluval FX5, my 40 community has a Fluval 405 and a Whisper 60, my 75 jaguar cichlid tank has a Fluval 405 and 2 Whisper 60s, and my 55 assorted tank has a Fluval 404 and 2 Whisper 60s. I am by no means underfiltering or compensating for it with water changes.

MY FISH in MY TANKS have never shown signs of stress from huge water changes, in fact some get a little frisky right after them. It shouldn't be stressful, even fish new to my tanks don't show any signs of stress during or after their first huge water change. I tried smaller water changes and the huge ones are much better for every single one of my tanks and every one of the tanks and systems at my work. That's why I advocate them. A newby shouldn't jump in to them, but with some decent aqaurium experience I think it is the next step in improving fish care for anyone who still does smaller water changes. If it's stressful how come I have not lost a single discus yet out my 7 even though I do about 80% water changes on them?

[Lady Hobbs]

This whole topic of water changes has been going on for a month and frankly, I know many of us are tired of reading the constant agrument about this same subject.....on and on and on.

A new thread is started and here we are, back to the same topic again.

Why don't those of you who do large water changes just stick with the way you do things and those of you who do 20-40% as you are doing stick with what works for you and forget all this constant arguing? No ones mind is being changed and this is like beating a dead horse with a stick.

As long as your tanks are clean and your fish are fine, do what works for you but for Gods Sakes, can we move on?

[jeffs99dime]

exactly. everyone's entitled to their own opinion. that's what this thread is... OPINIONS! let's not bash each other over it. anyway, someone who believes that they are right is not going to convice someone with another opinion, that that's the only way to do it. it's a dead horse! leave it at that--let's move on. oh yeah, this statement-- it's my opinion too!

one more thing. how does it look to someone just joining this forum to see a bunch of people (mostly adults) fighting with one another. it makes us all look like fools. that's also how we lose members that otherwise would have made a "home" here. that's what i think about, and so should all members. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE, YA KNOW?

[Cichlid_Man]

Good evening.
All I read were Northern Boy's post and Williams post.

Northernboy, you basically said it all.
All I was trying to do after my fish got sick, was to alert newcomers about the changes I made that resulted in septicemia.
Salt, mineral salt, aquarium salt, Instant Ocean...Use whatever works for you...
Water changes...I don't care if you change out 99% of your water a day...if it works...don't change.
I never attacked Reptileguy.
He was the first to come at me and disagree, and that is something I wish he would do in a freakin' PM, not for everybody to see. It makes us all look like idiots.
One last thing NorthernBoy...
I am really hoping you didn't mean I was one of the 3 morons??
That word is not in my vocabulary. Nor is stupid or dumb.
I take personal offense to that.
I have a Master's degree...
Notre Dame...University of Virgina Law School, Boston College majoring in Music.
I have played guitar with Eric Clapton and I am on several of his albums.
Moron? I have written 4 books on fish keeping, all published and in stores.
Moron?
Shall I go on?
This is over.
I know who and what I am.
Lastly..
I was the first one to nominate Reptileguy for MOTM last month.
He HAS helped me.

[William]

Ok lets but all this behind us now. Forget who attacked who first. (if anyone meant to attack anyone) and just be friends.

[jeffs99dime]

Ok lets but all this behind us now. Forget who attacked who first. (if anyone meant to attack anyone) and just be friends.

that's what i was trying to get at too!

[Slinky_Bass]

Wowee, perhaps this thread should also be under the controversial section with all the sparkes it's been kicking up! Hmmm, it might take a while for things to cool down on this one so perhaps we should agree to disagree (a favourite phrase of mine these days it seems :D ) until people are ready to be friends again.

[William]

I think you are right. Let stop this here to avoid more arguments. Thread closed.