Picine Tuberculosis AKA: Mycobacteriosis, Fish TB, acid-fast disease

[tanks4thememories]

Picine Tuberculosis AKA: Mycobacteriosis, Mycobacterium marinum, Fish TB, Fish Tuberculosis, acid-fast disease, granuloma disease, swimming pool granuloma, fish tank granuloma

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/fish/barbs/tbbarb1.jpg

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20020425144723/www.liveaquaria.com/images/general/la_bacteria_tuberculosis.jpg

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/bent_mrchrisaofa.jpg
Courtesy of Mr. Chris from The Age of Aquariums

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/DiseasePIX/NEJMSlideMmarinum.jpg
Human infection


As I was doing some research into disease I came across some interesting articles. I will make a blog entry eventually but for now I just wanted to post this info for us all to read and share any info we may have on the subject.

http://www.fisheries.go.th/aahri/Health_new/AAHRI/AAHRI/Topics/Newsletter/art40.htm

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mycobacterium

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Keefer_FishTB.html

http://www.seahorse.com/index.php?Itemid=218&catid=2&func=view&id=2641&option=com_joomlaboard&view=flat

http://www.vims.edu/myco/FAQ.html

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/infectdisbactf.htm

Its not just in fish tanks:

http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/showthread.php?t=486822

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001357.htm

Well that's enough for now Ill work on making this into an essay as time permits.

[Lady Hobbs]

My Gawd. That guy needs some help. I knew TB in fish caused human infections but didn't realize it went to this extent.

I've moved your thread and stickied it. Nice job sharing it here. People need to see this.

People will remove a fish from a tank but the entire stock will get the disease and the tank needs to be totally disinfected before new stock added. One of our former members had this happen to him.

[tanks4thememories]

My Gawd. That guy needs some help. I knew TB in fish caused human infections but didn't realize it went to this extent.

I've moved your thread and stickied it. Nice job sharing it here. People need to see this.

Ill let you know when I finish the essay if you want?

[Lady Hobbs]

Definately. Anyone who gets an infected cut or sore on their hands and arms needs to really be careful around their fish tanks and clean their hands well.

Chrona, a past member here, lost all his fish to TB, restocked and lost them all again. He had to break down his tank and scrub it with bleach to kill the TB. He also had to see a doctor about infection on his hands.

[tanks4thememories]

Definately. Anyone who gets an infected cut or sore on their hands and arms needs to really be careful around their fish tanks and clean their hands well.

Chrona, a past member here, lost all his fish to TB, restocked and lost them all again. He had to break down his tank and scrub it with bleach to kill the TB. He also had to see a doctor about infection on his hands.

So people need to know that just bleach wont neccessarily kill the bacteria. Alcahol @ 76 - 80 % and there is another disinfectant I will make sure to include it in the essay. but the point is you know that swimming pools have chlorine - Bleach basically and yet this is most commonly caught in humans from swimming at a public pool.

[Lady Hobbs]

He never did set his tank up with fish, only plants, so guess using bleach would not have worked then. You are full of really good information this morning!

[tanks4thememories]

He never did set his tank up with fish, only plants, so guess using bleach would not have worked then. You are full of really good information this morning!

Just getting back into my hobby. I like to research issues and I like to be thorough and try to get the whole story...lol

[Tolley]

Good post !

I thought it'd be good to add in this picture.

I see a lot of people worrying about TB when their Danio gets a humped back. If your Danio has a back like the photo below and not photos in the first post it is likely old age.

She was a nice fish, so hopefully she can help someone. R.I.P.

[cocoa_pleco]

Chrona, a past member here, lost all his fish to TB, restocked and lost them all again. He had to break down his tank and scrub it with bleach to kill the TB. He also had to see a doctor about infection on his hands.

did chrona ever re-do the tank? all i remember is him saying he was sick of TB and taking his tank down would be a pain, then he left

[Lady Hobbs]

I think all his fish dead and then he got more and lost those too. Could be wrong there. I do know he had an infection on his hand, tho.

[cocoa_pleco]

I do know he had an infection on his hand, tho.

from the TB? i never knew that. he was MIA since october or november of 07, but in late march this year someone made a thread asking if plastic plants from china are bad due to all the other chinese stuff posing health hazards and he randomly posted that the plants are probably fine and thats the last i ever heard

[tanks4thememories]

Good post !

I thought it'd be good to add in this picture.

I see a lot of people worrying about TB when their Danio gets a humped back. If your Danio has a back like the photo below and not photos in the first post it is likely old age.

She was a nice fish, so hopefully she can help someone. R.I.P.



For me two of the hardest symptoms to diagnose as Tb is the appearance of a curved spine, and Popeye.

Of all of the pics I reviewed for the upcoming essay im working on for this disease it was clear to me that the appearance of spinal curvature from this disease is not one of the more common symptoms. So a tail pointing up or down as in a hump back is less likely to be TB.
As seen in one of the pictures it is usually not symmetrical when it is due to TB. Often you can look at the fish and see the spine is in tact.

Where Spine curvature due to genetic deformity or old age is usually a uniform curvature of the spine and typically continues in the same direction as the fish ages up until death from loss of mobility.

In diagnosing this disease in a fish where the spine appears to be curved we can also think of the actual cause of this appearance if it is indeed TB. TB commonly attacks the internal organs and often the flesh in the rear lower half of the fish this creates "growths" as they grow in size they push other things (Organs, Muscle, Spine) out of the way. This is what can create the appearance of a curved spine. Close examination of the patient can reveal one side of the fish is actually swollen and the opposite side is normal or may even be sunken in appearance.

One article on "Popeye disease" stated that if both eyes are bulging it is less likely to be fish TB.

[Fishalicious]

Before a general panic breaks out that their fish may have TB it is a very uncommon fish disease although every fishkeeper should be aware of it due to is infectious nature. Even in the cases of fish with TB if personal hygene is used (washing hands after working in the tank) as well as making sure if you do have open cuts on your arms to be more cautious.

I had a friend who was hospitalized with TB from fish and on a drip for a while as well as a 4 month treatment tablets... but from 1000's of fishkeepers he is the only one I know who has ever been affected.

[tanks4thememories]

Before a general panic breaks out that their fish may have TB it is a very uncommon fish disease although every fishkeeper should be aware of it due to is infectious nature. Even in the cases of fish with TB if personal hygene is used (washing hands after working in the tank) as well as making sure if you do have open cuts on your arms to be more cautious.

I had a friend who was hospitalized with TB from fish and on a drip for a while as well as a 4 month treatment tablets... but from 1000's of fishkeepers he is the only one I know who has ever been affected.

It is on the rise in our waterways which means awareness as always is the best weapon in our arsenal. Also if possible quarantine practices for fish that are going into well established tanks.

Also keep in mind in humans it can go undiagnosed and often unreported or might be attributed to other activities like: Fishing, or swimming in public Pools.

Read this whole thread from a fisherman's forum. It is very interesting.

http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/showthread.php?t=486822

[xximanoobxx]

Omg... Theres a dojo loach that has fish TB at 1 of my LFS... Is this bad???

[kwhale]

I've just euthanized a beloved tiger barb, lest having TB.
Yesterday I suddenly realized its spine was curved, but not upward. The curvature was from one side to the other.It must have happened quite recently as I hadn't noticed it before. It was eating and socializing with other tigers pretty well, though spent times in reclusion too. Did it have fish TB?

Other incidences in my tank are/were another tiger having a small white but not cotton like spot on upper lip, and a small black convict bloat, almost to raised scales, not sure about this though. Recently pulled temperature up back to 27 after cooling to 25 for a week or so thinking I had columnaris problem.
I made a 10% water exchange and happened to star the siphone by mouth, thought droplets to nothing got into my mouth. If there's a TB problem in my tank, have I been exposed

[tanks4thememories]

I've just euthanized a beloved tiger barb, lest having TB.
Yesterday I suddenly realized its spine was curved, but not upward. The curvature was from one side to the other.It must have happened quite recently as I hadn't noticed it before. It was eating and socializing with other tigers pretty well, though spent times in reclusion too. Did it have fish TB?

Other incidences in my tank are/were another tiger having a small white but not cotton like spot on upper lip, and a small black convict bloat, almost to raised scales, not sure about this though. Recently pulled temperature up back to 27 after cooling to 25 for a week or so thinking I had columnaris problem.
I made a 10% water exchange and happened to star the siphone by mouth, thought droplets to nothing got into my mouth. If there's a TB problem in my tank, have I been exposed

I'm no expert and barely a novice on aquarium disease.. I am however a systems engineer thus a pretty decent researcher.

What I have read in the links at the top of this post suggest that you are at risk if your immune system is compromised and/or you have open wounds that come into contact with the bacteria. As mentioned bacteria is all around us. However what is not so accurate is the fact that the bacteria that causes this infection is omni present (everywhere). If you note in the links they are doing testing in our water ways for this bacteria and sometimes it is found and most often it is not found. This implies that it is not always around us and further that we are not constantly exposed to it. Further reading of the links evidences that fishermen have become infected with this bacteria simply by getting pricked by infected fish they caught.
In yet another of the links it is revealed that people who don't even keep fish have become infected by swimming in public swimming pools (in such cases doctors have also called it swimming pool granuloma). It is my belief that there are more cases than reported because it is known by so many names and those who have been diagnosed often describe going to several doctors before getting an accurate diagnosis. Most diagnosis for this disease in an aquarium is to euthanize the fish and sterilize the aquarium. In fact in commercial fisheries on one of the sub links (a link contained inside the links I posted) describes wiping out stock tanks found to have infected fish.) So once again if it was everywhere I do not think this would be a recommended course of action. It seems to be a very slow growing Bacteria. It favors higher temperatures, The crooked spine symptom is not due to an altering of the fishes spine rather it is from a growth or an inflamed organ creating that appearance due to pressure on surrounding tissue. External symptoms are leisions on the skin of an infected fish. and yet a third symptom which can somtimes be invisable to the hobbiest is when the fish suddenly dies due to one of the internal growths rupturing inside the infected fish. The most infectious stages to both man and fish seem to be if a growth ruptures and/or when there are external lesions. The responsible bacteria prefers salt water (salting your water does not prevent nor slow this bacteria)

Now for the "Not So Bad" news. It seems to be quite rare that humans become infected with this bacteria. Once properly diagnosed it seems that treatment is quite manageable. In my brief research on this I have not found any cases where it has been transmitted from one human to another. I have not found any cases where someone has died from an infection.

Now for the Good news. As always out top weapon as a aquarium hobbiest is our powers of observation and sound prevention practices. Here are some of the things I would recommend:

1) People with compromised immune systems and children should not handle fish tank water or fish in a tank suspected of containing this bacteria.

2) Use aquarium Gloves when working in tanks containing infected fish.

3) Know the symptoms and early warning signs of infection in both fish and humans.

4) Keep a clean tank.

5) Make sure your fish are not overcrowded or over stressed.

6) Remove dead fish immediately.

7) This bacteria is resistant to: air (can survive out of water), freezing, low concentrations of bleach, Salt water, and even low concentrations of alcohol. so be advised when sterilizing it requires strong bleach solution, alcohol solutions of 80% or more.

8) Practice good hygiene after working in a fish tank. (Wash hands with strong bleach solution or alcohol solution higher than 80%) and remember if you to use bleach before you work in your aquarium make sure you thoroughly rinse your hands before you place them into the water.

Well that's all I got for now I hope it helps and remember I am not a doctor all of the information in this post is from my research on the issue. Please read for yourself do your own research ask questions and form your own opinions.

[tanks4thememories]

Omg... Theres a dojo loach that has fish TB at 1 of my LFS... Is this bad???

If they use a shared filter system and no sterilizers on the return feeds I wouldn't buy anything from the store.

[tanks4thememories]

I've just euthanized a beloved tiger barb, lest having TB.
Yesterday I suddenly realized its spine was curved, but not upward. The curvature was from one side to the other.It must have happened quite recently as I hadn't noticed it before. It was eating and socializing with other tigers pretty well, though spent times in reclusion too. Did it have fish TB?

Other incidences in my tank are/were another tiger having a small white but not cotton like spot on upper lip, and a small black convict bloat, almost to raised scales, not sure about this though. Recently pulled temperature up back to 27 after cooling to 25 for a week or so thinking I had columnaris problem.
I made a 10% water exchange and happened to star the siphone by mouth, thought droplets to nothing got into my mouth. If there's a TB problem in my tank, have I been exposed

In your description of the spine curvature you say it basically happened over night. That is defiantly not genetic and I suspect some bacterium is behind the change. I would watch the tank closely. Also keep in mind that Fish TB grows slowly. frequent water changes keeps the general bacteria population in the water column down thus decreasing the likelihood that it takes hold on any particular fish. If you strongly suspect Fish TB I would also quarantine any fish that was alive and suspected of having it. Unfortunately the only way I have read about to be 100% positive on fish TB diagnosis is a culture to be grown. You might find a pond vet in your area willing to help on that front.

[tanks4thememories]

http://www.vims.edu/myco/FAQ.html#Human

"What are the symptoms of mycobacteriosis in humans?

It is not yet known whether Mycobacterium shottsii (the dominant species isolated in the current outbreak of striped bass mycobacteriosis in Chesapeake Bay) can infect humans. Concern is warranted because M. shottsii is closely related to M. marinum, a species known to cause disease in both humans and fish.

Primary symptoms of human infection by M. marinum include infections of the skin and soft tissues. Infection most typically becomes evident as reddish raised nodules on the hands, elbows, knees, and feet. In many instances the joints may become swollen.

M. shottsii and M. marinum have very different growth rates. M. marinum grows well at 30-33°C (86-91°F), but not at the normal human body core temperature of 37°C (98.6°F). This helps explain why M. marinum tends to infect the extremities, which are cooler than the body core. M. shottsii prefers a cooler temperature (23°C or 73°F) and grows very slowly or not at all at 30¡C under laboratory conditions.

What should I do if I suspect I might have been exposed to mycobacteriosis?

Anyone who suspects they may have been exposed to mycobacteriosis from handling infected striped bass should contact their physician and inform them of the nature of the exposure."

[tanks4thememories]

http://iacuc.tennessee.edu/pdf/OHP/AtypicalMycobacteriosis.pdf

The University of Tennessee
Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee
Occupational Health Program

ATYPICAL MYCOBACTERIOSIS

People at Risk:
People caring for infective amphibians and fish as well as those
performing necropsies on infected animals are at risk for
contracting the disease. Immunocompromised people have a
greater potential for serious disease symptoms. The disease is very
rare in people with normal immune systems.

Transmission:
Atypical Mycobacteria are gram positive, acid fast rods that are
non-motile and found throughout the environment. People may be
infected by inhaling or swallowing infective droplets, or by coming
into contact with infective animals or their aquaria. M. fortuitum,
M. chelonei, M. marinum, and M. xenopi are some of the species
that affect fish and amphibians.

Symptoms:
In fish and amphibians, the disease usually manifests as chronic
wasting, edema, and nodules under the skin.
The signs of atypical mycobacteriosis in humans usually consist of a
single lesion (nodule) on hands or fingers at the site of a cut or
abrasion. This usually resolves over time without treatment.
Occasionally the organism can spread to nearby lymph nodes,
resulting in nodules in the lymph nodes as well as the site of the
original infection. Rarely, infection can spread to joints, tendons,
and bones.
Immunocompromised individuals are more prone to severe
infection, and show symptoms of respiratory or generalized disease.

Diagnosis and Prevention:
Diagnosis is based on symptoms and detection of microorganisms
microscopically, through histology, and/or culture. Treatment
consists of antibiotics.
Use gloves when working with fish and amphibians and when
cleaning their aquaria. Always wash hands thoroughly after
handling animals and aquaria.

[kwhale]

I appreciate ur helpful and comprehensive feedback. Since my last post, I reduced the food and the convict guy has lost a good deal of its bloated belly. All other folks in the tank are doing well. I'll keep closely watching them though.
Looks like I was being hypochondriac, the euthenized fish didn't have any lesions and I tend to start thinking that maybe the curved backbone was not really TB. From what you said, looks like having something like that happening over night is NOT what one can expect from a slow growing disease.
I'll post in here in the case of something new happening.
Thank you very much good fella.

[tanks4thememories]

I appreciate ur helpful and comprehensive feedback. Since my last post, I reduced the food and the convict guy has lost a good deal of its bloated belly. All other folks in the tank are doing well. I'll keep closely watching them though.
Looks like I was being hypochondriac, the euthenized fish didn't have any lesions and I tend to start thinking that maybe the curved backbone was not really TB. From what you said, looks like having something like that happening over night is NOT what one can expect from a slow growing disease.
I'll post in here in the case of something new happening.
Thank you very much good fella.


Well it could be that you caught whatever it is early and removed the infected fish and now things are recovering nicely...lol Remember Frequent water changes, Once a week, and stay vigilant just like you have been doing....:hmm3grin2orange:

[kwhale]

Hi there fish crazy people!

I am looking for an effective chemical or something, besides bleach, PP, various acids and salt to disinfect aquarium equipment such as net, siphon, ...
Your feedback would be highly appreciated.

[Red]

good ole hot water....

[kwhale]

you are basically getting at an autoclave which I can't afford!
Think bout it Mr. pussycat, how to boil a net with its long handle, and wet heat will definitely disfigure/kill all plastic stuff like siphon. play again buddy.

[Red]

?????
woo buddy i ment hot water.... did i say boil. whatever i am done helping you.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Why are you so opposed to bleach? It works quite well.

[cocoa_pleco]

Why are you so opposed to bleach? It works quite well.

what i was just going to ask. bleach, hot water, and vinegar all work great

[OscarFan]

Bleech works great and will easily rinse off.

[kwhale]

Pussycat, sorry if sounded bored with you. was just playing rather nauthy:c12:
I know u r kind enough to share experience and help other folks out.
Well,I took for granted that u meant boiling cuz even boiling is quite often insufficient to kill more resilient bacteria and/or their spores. that's y autoclaves combine pressure with heat to reach hotter temperatures.
I dislike bleach cuz it wakens silicon and rinsing it off is tedious.
acids like acetic acid (vinegar) and hydrochloric acid are not always a right choice, remember, we have acidophile (acid-loving) bacteria which thrive best in lower pH.

[OscarFan]

Vunegar works good to. But ull have to rinse pretty much any disinfectant off.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I've never had it weaken silicon in any of my tanks, and rinsing is hardly tedious. You simply add extra dechlorinator to the rinse water.

[Red]

Lol i see your point with hot water... and why do you call me pussycat
lol..... they might make some kind of product in stores but those might contain bleach...

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

and why do you call me pussycat


Just a wild guess, but it may have something to do with your avatar and sig. LOL

[MrDrums]

I agree with the hot water option.

[Red]

lol yeah your right.. i had nothing to put in my sig
lol

[kwhale]

but I have, so have some other hobbiests I know. A 50:50 solution is what people normally recommend, but what I use is even more dilute. I add a cupful from the commercial bleach solution to one liter of water and use it as equipment bath. Yet it smells a lot after several rinsing off. I alway feel uncomfortable of sticking anything treated like that into my tanks.
In addition, it reeks all over my place and I am sure it also gets dissolved in my tanks water.

[kwhale]

it sure dose! What correlates Red severum to a cat avatar, I wonder!!
All fish hate cats after all!!, don"t they.

[kwhale]

OK, let me do some brain storming, trying to pique and intrigue your long-established idea:

Have you ever heard/used: benzalkonium chlorideChloride, Cetylpyridinum bromide, Didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride?

[Nick89]

Dude just use warm-hot water and a clean cloth and scrub it.....Not a big deal, really......You a clean freak or something? lol.

[kwhale]

LOL!
Looks like I am.
But honestly, I may have fish TB problem in one of my tanks, trying to nip it in the bud of getting spread to others. that's y i am kinda obsessed with cleanness

[Nick89]

I see.. Well that makes sense i guess.. Hope everythings ok...

[MrDrums]

I don't think I'd use anything that remotely smells or has "zyne" in its name. Again, hot water and a bit of elbow grease is fine, as is the light bleach solution mentioned above. What is fish TB and how do you know you have it? What is your water change schedule like? Maybe some aquarium salt, more frequent water changes, stress coat / stress syme or similar products would do the trick just as well for you.....

[tanks4thememories]

LOL!
Looks like I am.
But honestly, I may have fish TB problem in one of my tanks, trying to nip it in the bud of getting spread to others. that's y i am kinda obsessed with cleanness

Very strong Bleach sol or 70+ % solution alcohol and must sit for at least 15 mins. Fish TB can even survive freezing. Very sturdy bacterium.

[Lady Hobbs]

I agree. Bleach is the only thing I know of that will kill TB virus. Let it sit outside and allow it to dry and you will have no smell.

[tanks4thememories]

Specifically to kill Mycobacterium marinum beyond all doubt!!!

Industrial Grade sterilization...lol

Why go to such extremes you may ask?

According to: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no7/02-0415.htm
Which reads and I quote:

"Resistance of Mycobacteria to Disinfection

Mycobacteria are very resistant to the disinfectants used in water treatment, including chlorine and ozone (27). For example, M. avium is almost 500 times more resistant to chlorine than is Escherichia coli (27). Mycobacteria are also quite resistant to agents used for surface and instrument disinfection, including quaternary ammonium compounds, phenolics, iodophors, and glutaraldehyde (16,22,23,36) and can degrade the disinfectant morpholine (20). Hydrophobicity and impermeability are undoubtedly factors contributing to the disinfection resistance of mycobacteria (35). Chemical or enzymatic removal of surface lipid, while not reducing viability, reduces surface hydrophobicity and alters cell charge (37). Because of their inherent impermeability, mycobacteria grow relatively slowly compared to other bacteria. The slow growth is not necessarily a disadvantage because it correlates with increased resistance to antimicrobial agents (35), including chlorine (Falkinham JO, unpub data).

Exposure of a mixed microbial population to disinfectants results in selection of a disinfectant-resistant or tolerant population (38). The persistence and growth of mycobacteria in drinking water systems (21) are due, in part, to their disinfectant-resistance (27) and ability to grow under oligotrophic conditions (21). Disinfection of swimming pools, therapy pools, and spas or hot tubs with chlorine is expected to kill nonmycobacterial flora and to permit the growth of even the slowly growing mycobacteria in the absence of competitors for nutrients. High temperature would also be expected to result in enrichment of mycobacteria (29,30). Resistance to disinfectants could also lead to the proliferation of mycobacterial populations in metal working fluid and coolants after disinfection (6,12,13)."

Isopropyl alcohol - C3H8O - Pharmacy Alcohol
70 - 90% solution

Sodium hypochlorite - NaClO - Household Bleach
10% or 1:10

Chloramine - NH2Cl
10% or 1:10

Chloramine is a combination of chlorine and ammonia. It is a stronger disinfectant than chlorine alone and is used in areas where this extra disinfectant is needed.

POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE - KMnO4
1:1000 potassium permanganate solution
Effective, but potentially dangerous. It can oxidise dissolved organic matter, reducing the biological oxygen demand and improving water quality and clarity. It is a very good thing to have in hand. Can also kill plants.

*Very powerful chemical Handle with extreme care. Especially do not mix this with soap. It can explode.

Potassium permanganate - KMnO4
+
Glycerol or glycerin(e) is a viscous liquid used in many liquid soaps, etc.

When you mix the two together, the potassium permanganate readily oxidizes the glycerol in an exothermic reaction that produces smoke, heat, and eventually a flame.

References:

http://www.geocities.com/fishnag/potassium.html

http://www.torrens.org.uk/NatHist/Aqua/disease/tb.html

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:blXIL-d2Gg8J:www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Potassium_permanganate-9927406+potassium+permanganate+explode&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_permanganate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

http://www.hawaii.edu/ehso/bio/BSM_part06.htm

[tanks4thememories]

Try this thread:

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=353497&postcount=24

[tanks4thememories]

From the research I have done thus far I agree with about 90% of what this guy says.

http://www.torrens.org.uk/NatHist/Aqua/disease/tb.html

[kwhale]

How about glutaraldehyde?
A 70% sol. is what medical personnel use to disinfect endoscopic tools and apparatus.

[Red]

How about glutaraldehyde?
A 70% sol. is what medical personnel use to disinfect endoscopic tools and apparatus.

suree but i bet that doesnt smell the best

[kwhale]

I agree. Bleach is the only thing I know of that will kill TB virus. Let it sit outside and allow it to dry and you will have no smell.
TB is a bacterium, not virus. dealing with virus, maybe contracting to what you may think, is waaaaaaaaay easier as they don't form spores. Bacteria spores make them withstand pretty harsh conditions like extreme temperature, drought, extreme cold etc. Virus however, because of their relatively simple structure, are more susceptible to disinfecting chemicals or detergents. HIV virus, because of its lipid envelope, can't tolerate simple soap more than couple of minutes, but tetanus spores, omnipresent in soil will readily survive such a treatment.

[kwhale]

suree but i bet that doesnt smell the best
man, they rinse it prior to use.
btw, it smells way better than shorter aldehydes like acetaldehyde or formaldehyde.

[james481]

I'm not sure about disinfecting a tank, but really the only sure way (and probably the easiest) is just get a separate net and siphon for each of your tanks. Plus, this doesn't leave you mucking about with chemicals all day and wondering if they work or not.

[tanks4thememories]

How about glutaraldehyde?
A 70% sol. is what medical personnel use to disinfect endoscopic tools and apparatus.

Honestly The ones I listed in the post have all been confirmed to work for killing all strains of myco.

The 10% bleach works just fill the tank with it and let it run over night with filtration attached and minimal to no aeration. In fact when used properly it is highly recommended by CDC as a wide spectrum disinfectant.

If you don't like that then go with the 1:1000 potassium permanganate solution It is a very elegant disinfectant and very useful in the pet trade. In fact several aquarium products contain it.

[MeganL3985]

If your that concerned with not using bleach, maybe you should call a hospital and talk to someone about what types of disinfectants they use to clean instruments, used on TB patients. Then try to narrow it down to what can be used and cleaned thoroughly without leaving a residue or chemical behind that would possibly harm your fish.

Or you can figure out if TB has any acidophilic bacteria involved with it....if not then your safe to use vinegar as a cleaner.

[tanks4thememories]

If your that concerned with not using bleach, maybe you should call a hospital and talk to someone about what types of disinfectants they use to clean instruments, used on TB patients. Then try to narrow it down to what can be used and cleaned thoroughly without leaving a residue or chemical behind that would possibly harm your fish.

Or you can figure out if TB has any acidophilic bacteria involved with it....if not then your safe to use vinegar as a cleaner.

Good Point, That is what was in the link I provided. I suspect he has been researching hospital disinfectants as that research appears to be the source of his question regarding "glutaraldehyde" which is used in the medical profession.

I have listed the most effective active ingredients in this Post:
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=353497&postcount=24

Which Contains this link:
http://www.hawaii.edu/ehso/bio/BSM_part06.htm

[tanks4thememories]

If your that concerned with not using bleach, maybe you should call a hospital and talk to someone about what types of disinfectants they use to clean instruments, used on TB patients. Then try to narrow it down to what can be used and cleaned thoroughly without leaving a residue or chemical behind that would possibly harm your fish.

Or you can figure out if TB has any acidophilic bacteria involved with it....if not then your safe to use vinegar as a cleaner.

I think he doesn't like bleach because it has been shown that Myco is resistant to low concentrations of chlorine. However it has also been shown that the recommended solution of bleach 10% or more has been highly effective in killing myco. -This information is also provided in the links referenced above.

[tanks4thememories]

man, they rinse it prior to use.
btw, it smells way better than shorter aldehydes like acetaldehyde or formaldehyde.

If I may also say there are 6 things I like about bleach:

1) Readily available

2) Easily neutralized (Removed from aquarium & equipment)

3) Easily detectable (Smell it, If still unsure test for it with a test kit)

4) Highly effective if used properly.

5) One of the Least hazardous disinfectants of its caliber.

6) One of the most "ecologically friendly:" disinfectants of its caliber.

[kwhale]

thnx everyone for all helpful replies. I am a chemist/biochemist. Most of what I wrote come from lectures and textbooks I had to once read. Hospital disinfection entails using industrial autoclaves and/or laboratory oven with the later proviiding dry heat that is good to kill almost everything at temperatures above 150 C for several minutes to hour.
Here is my problem:
1- PP and methelen blue stain ur stuff/silicon
2-chlorine is what we all have to avoid in our fish tank. Kind of obsessional person, I'd never be sure if I rinsed enough . Secondly chlorine damages a vast variety of things we use. How do you think it kills microbes after all.
3- I'd been hoping for something of easy supply which doesn't reek and stains. I can cope with chemical toxicity and handle it accordingly, it is my everyday job at work.
The chemicals I named each have their particular use, ranging from disinfecting a sore throat and vegetables to hospital tools.
Also many other detergents, mainly anionic are used which are more bacteriostatic than bactericide.
looks like I've been hoping too much.

[kwhale]

Good Point, That is what was in the link I provided. I suspect he has been researching hospital disinfectants as that research appears to be the source of his question regarding "glutaraldehyde" which is used in the medical profession.

I have listed the most effective active ingredients in this Post:
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=353497&postcount=24

Which Contains this link:
http://www.hawaii.edu/ehso/bio/BSM_part06.htm

the latest link is quite informative.
tks

[tanks4thememories]

How about glutaraldehyde?
A 70% sol. is what medical personnel use to disinfect endoscopic tools and apparatus.

"Mycobacteria are also quite resistant to agents used for surface and instrument disinfection, including quaternary ammonium compounds, phenolics, iodophors, and glutaraldehyde (16,22,23,36) and can degrade the disinfectant morpholine (20)."

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no7/02-0415.htm

These are different Myco than those in Fish tanks and Fish but still not many people are doing alot of study in the ones in the tropical Fish arena. Also I think a key word here is "resistant" not immune...lol Higher concentrations usually have higher effectiveness except in alcohol where you never want to use 100% solution for disinfection because alcohol needs water to perform its disinfection.

[tanks4thememories]

5% solution of Chloramine T(Tosylchloramide Sodium) can kill Mycobacterium tuberculosis for two hours and kill the spores taking 10 hours or more.

[tanks4thememories]

Hi there fish crazy people!

I am looking for an effective chemical or something, besides bleach, PP, various acids and salt to disinfect aquarium equipment such as net, siphon, ...
Your feedback would be highly appreciated.

Kwhale, I want to thank you for your questions because they directed me to some really great areas in my research of this bacterium. I believe I have found the disinfectant you seek. My main concern would be neutralization after application. Well here is how I ended up there. Alcohol and Bleach as it turns out have limited effectiveness on spores. When I started researching the mortality of Mycobacterium in both spores and vegetative states it brought me to the newer frontier in this field. There is a new biocidal compound out called: Klercide-CR Biocide B and also Klercide-CR Biocide D/Y. This is another product called: Virkon by dupont. Both products are being targeted at Animal Husbandry labratory facilities. The Klercide-CR: Biocide B & Virkon are rapidly gaining popularity in the laboratory "Clean Room" community. Once again my main concern with chemicals other than bleach is once you do kill what you are targeting how do you remove/neutralize the disinfectant so as not to kill beneficial bacteria and aquatic life. I currently have calls in at several wholesalers/retailers of these products to address my concerns and questions. I will post results as they become available.

[tanks4thememories]

Hi there fish crazy people!

I am looking for an effective chemical or something, besides bleach, PP, various acids and salt to disinfect aquarium equipment such as net, siphon, ...
Your feedback would be highly appreciated.

Kwhale, Do you mind if this thread is combined with the Picine Tuberculosis thread? (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=28622) If you agree please request that an admin do so? I think a lot of people can benefit from this info & it would be nice to have it in one place...lol

[kwhale]

Sorry to respond rather late, I just happened to realize ich problem in one of my tanks and had to deal with that.
Getting back to ur asking for permission, you've got it, just go ahead on my behalf and take whatever measures you should to combine these two.
I enjoyed the interactions we had which pushed my information a lot and would like to thank you all, one by one, with especial thanks going to thanksforthememories fella. By the way, do ya know the chemical names/ingredients of the new reagents you named?
AND about the ick problem, I have started with raising temp and 20% water change. I am not a big fan of malachite green which is a suspected carcinogen and formalin that can always contain paraformaldehyde, a potent piscine toxin. I;d like to use copper sulfate, as I have no invertebrate in my tank, just don't know how much. I have access to copper sulfate so I can prepare my own solution if I know what the concentration and dosage should be.
Any idea would be highly appreciated.

[kwhale]

I've just found my answer, thanks to google!

http://www.versaquatics.com/treatmentandmethodology.htm

Now I am seeking to figure out how to reduce Cu2+ toxicity as this Cupermanin thing does.

share ur knowledge plz!

tks

[tanks4thememories]

Sorry to respond rather late, I just happened to realize ich problem in one of my tanks and had to deal with that.
Getting back to ur asking for permission, you've got it, just go ahead on my behalf and take whatever measures you should to combine these two.
I enjoyed the interactions we had which pushed my information a lot and would like to thank you all, one by one, with especial thanks going to thanksforthememories fella. By the way, do ya know the chemical names/ingredients of the new reagents you named?
AND about the ick problem, I have started with raising temp and 20% water change. I am not a big fan of malachite green which is a suspected carcinogen and formalin that can always contain paraformaldehyde, a potent piscine toxin. I;d like to use copper sulfate, as I have no invertebrate in my tank, just don't know how much. I have access to copper sulfate so I can prepare my own solution if I know what the concentration and dosage should be.
Any idea would be highly appreciated.


The pleasure is mines as well. I only wish it was under better circumstances and I hope your fish get well soon. Now on to the issues at hand:

1) Klericide - Personal Note "Based purely on research and the specs Of the two I prefer this one so far."
Product name: KLERCIDE-CR BIOCIDE B CONCENTRATE
Index number: 111033E
Use of substance / preparation: Hard surface disinfectant solution. Product is for professional use only.
Company name: Shield Medicare - A Division of Ecolab
Cheyenne House
West Street
Farnham
Surrey
GU9 7EQ
Tel: +44 (0) 1252 717616
Fax: +44 (0) 1252 715269
Emergency tel: +44 (0) 208 762 8322 (multi-lingual response)Hazardous

COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Hazardous ingredients:
SODIUM CHLORITE 1-10%
EINECS: 231-791-2 CAS: 7758-19-2
[T] R23/24; [Xn] R22; [Xi] R41
• C9-11 ALCOHOL ETHOXYLATE WITH 12 MEO 1-10%
CAS: 68439-46-3
[Xn] R22; [Xi] R41
• DIDECYLDIMETHYLAMMONIUM CHLORIDE 1-10%
EINECS: 230-525-2 CAS: 7173-51-5
[Xn] R22; [C] R34
• PROPAN-2-OL 1-10%
EINECS: 200-661-7 CAS: 67-63-0
[F] R11; [Xi] R36; [-] R67

TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Hazardous ingredients:
DIDECYLDIMETHYLAMMONIUM CHLORIDE
IPR RAT LD50 45 mg/kg
ORL MUS LD50 268 mg/kg
• PROPAN-2-OL
IVN RAT LD50 1088 mg/kg
ORL MUS LD50 3600 mg/kg
ORL RAT LD50 5045 mg/kg
SCU MUS LDLO 6 gm/kg
Chronic toxicity: Contact with skin may irritate and

Virkon in the us is sold by Dupont under the name of Reyon (Go figure...lol)
Company Identification
MANUFACTURER/DISTRIBUTOR
DuPont Chemical Solutions Enterprise
1007 Market Street
Wilmington, DE 19898
PHONE NUMBERS
Product Information : 1-800-441-7515 (outside the U.S.
302-774-1000)
Transport Emergency : CHEMTREC 1-800-424-9300(outside U.S.
703-527-3887)
Medical Emergency : 1-800-441-3637 (outside the U.S.
302-774-1000)

COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Components
Material CAS Number %
Isopropyl Alcohol (Isopropanol) 67-63-0 70
Propylene Glycol 57-55-6 6-12
Water 7732-18-5

2) You must monitor the levels of copper in the tank to maintain an exposure at a level of "0.10 - 0.15" ppm copper sulfate. Typically this is done for you with the prepared medications by telling you how many drops /pills per gallon and how many days. Without a test kit for copper I'm not sure how you can do that. Also be advised once you do use copper that tank will not be safe in the future for inverts.

Good luck!! As always we are here if ya need us. In fact pop in sometimes when you don't need us too...lol

[kwhale]

I'll sure do my friend!
DIDECYLDIMETHYLAMMONIUM CHLORIDE, is what they use in Lysol products, a quaternary ammonium compound with chloride as counter ion.So, if I remember right, once in our discussion here, it was indicated that it would not do as well for TB.
Sodium chlorite ( NaClO2) is however something new. I've never heard before it can be used in disinfecting purposes. It should be very similar in effects to its cousin sodium hypochlorite, javex.(NaClO). I remember from high school that commercial chlorine solutions have actually both in their formulations, not sure though if it is still the case.
Also thanks for clarification about copper ion concentration. Achieving a target ppm concentration is basically very simple. Part Per Million (ppm) is actually milligrams ( or milliequivalent grams/ ion-grams) of your ion/compound of interests in 1000 cubic centimeter ( a liter). So 1 mg per liter is 1 ppm.
Surfing the web, I bumped into the safe range of copper in aquaculture media which read pretty much as same as you gave me.At the moment I am trying to figure out what the medication called Cuperamine could be that is claimed to be less toxic with same bio availability as copper sulfate.
The bottle says" Buffered copper solution" and from the name, cuperamine" I could tell, off the top of my head that it could be ammonium acetate buffed CuSO4 with adjusted pH around 6.5 ish. I imagine the buffer concentration has been thought to cope with typical highest pH one could ever get in an aquarium, a 100 milli molar(mM) buffer solution is what I presume. It actually could be any buffer like sodium acetate which looks even safer because ammonium acetate in higher pH would turn into ammonia, bad enough to kill our wet friends. What do you all think?

[Debbied8]

I appreciate ur helpful and comprehensive feedback. Since my last post, I reduced the food and the convict guy has lost a good deal of its bloated belly. All other folks in the tank are doing well. I'll keep closely watching them though.
Looks like I was being hypochondriac, the euthenized fish didn't have any lesions and I tend to start thinking that maybe the curved backbone was not really TB. From what you said, looks like having something like that happening over night is NOT what one can expect from a slow growing disease.
I'll post in here in the case of something new happening.
Thank you very much good fella.


I have had one Black Molly and one Dalmation Molly to present symptoms of the follwing:

curved or kink in spine overnight
listless and hovers near bottom of tank
appears sunken from midway to tail (thin) over time
continues to eat
seems almost paralyzed from mid to tail but if startled, will use it.
No visable skin problems or knots
Has clear to milky stringy fecal matter.

What's your diagnosis?

[William]

If you post your question in a new post in this forum
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/forumdisplay.php?f=64

You wil likely get better response.

[tanks4thememories]

I have had one Black Molly and one Dalmation Molly to present symptoms of the follwing:

curved or kink in spine overnight
listless and hovers near bottom of tank
appears sunken from midway to tail (thin) over time
continues to eat
seems almost paralyzed from mid to tail but if startled, will use it.
No visable skin problems or knots
Has clear to milky stringy fecal matter.

What's your diagnosis?

How long have you had fish for?
How long have you had it before symptoms started?
How long have you had it since symptoms started?
What has changed (if anything) recently in your setup?
- Diet
- Temp
- Water change cycles
What do you feed it?
Have you recently changed diet?

Off the top of my head it sounds like its bloated , some kind of digestive tract blockage or bacterial infection. I need more info to give you a better guess at what it is.

[jimbo_497]

Hi all, I have sick fish . I want to know more about fish tb , what the symptoms are what the symtoms look like. I have had a few guppy mothers that all have given birth within the last few months and they all seem to have the same marks on their bodies , only on the front top part of their bodies. its white patches, not raised or fungus like . however one did develop a ulcer but i treated that with some meth blue . so i guess in summary i just need to know what these white markings are . thankyou any help would be good , i will try and get some pictures for anyone who would like to see and help me . thankyou . James

[tanks4thememories]

Hi all, I have sick fish . I want to know more about fish tb , what the symptoms are what the symtoms look like. I have had a few guppy mothers that all have given birth within the last few months and they all seem to have the same marks on their bodies , only on the front top part of their bodies. its white patches, not raised or fungus like . however one did develop a ulcer but i treated that with some meth blue . so i guess in summary i just need to know what these white markings are . thankyou any help would be good , i will try and get some pictures for anyone who would like to see and help me . thankyou . James


Doesn't sound like Myco.
Lets start with your water quality?
Ammo:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
PH:
Temp:
How many fish in tank?
What fish are in tank?
Tank Size:
When did symptoms first start?
Which fish are affected?
Describe in detail what symptoms are.
While you Waite for response look here: http://www.fishvet.com/diagnosis_charts.htm (http://www.fishvet.com/diagnosis_charts.htm)
and here for comparison pics: http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html (http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html)

We will look for your reply..:)

[Dacotah7]

Ill let you know when I finish the essay if you want?

I came to this thread looking for a reason of why one of two Gouramis' I purchased yesterday suddenly developed a curved spine while in my QT tank. It was fine in the LFS. I still am not sure what it has; if it is fish TB or not.

This thread is interesting but it seems to have come to a stand still. I have not followed all of the numerous links yet, but was the essay ever posted; if so where?

Does vinegar kill the TB bacteria?
Would a sterilizer be effective? I am thinking if so, I would shell out the bucks for my 20g QT tank.
If I eliminated the ailing fish, (return him to the LFS) how long would I have o QT the other to determine if it were TB free? Or could it be a carier forever? Would it be better to simply retun both fish?

[tanks4thememories]

I came to this thread looking for a reason of why one of two Gouramis' I purchased yesterday suddenly developed a curved spine while in my QT tank. It was fine in the LFS. I still am not sure what it has; if it is fish TB or not.

TB usually doesn't set in so quickly but it is still possible. Typically the spine of a fish gets curved rapidly as what you are describing if some part of the internal organs becomes so swollen that it makes the spine appear disfigured. The 2 fastest swelling regions are the stomach and swim bladder. its not very likely swim bladder If they aren't disorientated. So that leaves some ailment of the stomach as the most likely cause of the symptom you describe,



This thread is interesting but it seems to have come to a stand still. I have not followed all of the numerous links yet, but was the essay ever posted; if so where?

Sorry, in the middle of the research for this I ran into some things that sucked up my free time. Also I was accumulating more data because most of the work I came across in my research was still in progress of based on a lot of the same sets of data. I still have my research and have been adding to it, but just haven't had the large blocks of time I used to have when I first started this. I will still post the essay though just be more time to finish it.



Does vinegar kill the TB bacteria?

No



Would a sterilizer be effective? I am thinking if so, I would shell out the bucks for my 20g QT tank.

Yes, There is much information to support that properly set up and maintained UV system is a great tool to limit the spread of this pathogen through the water column.



If I eliminated the ailing fish, (return him to the LFS) how long would I have o QT the other to determine if it were TB free? Or could it be a carier forever? Would it be better to simply retun both fish?

If these were fish from your main tanks I would recommend that you work to QT and weed out the infected ones and worry about trying to save as many as possible. But since these are newly purchased fish I would recommended you return them both. If it is Myco I wouldn't buy fish from there as well. Although there have been some partially documented successes:There is no clinically accepted and properly documented known cure for fish with Myco.

To disinfect the tank and equipment use the bleach method as listed somewhere in this thread above.


Hope this helps ya out.

[Dacotah7]

Thanks Tanks.

It was all helpful. I am so glad I set a QT (20g) and caught this (whatever it is) before introducing new fish with problems into my 125g, which now has maybe 30 more fish than I have listed in my signature. I need to update that.

The sick guy seems to have improved some; is eating, rotated to an almost horizontal position, and moves about the tank more. I did a 80% WC and the water parameters were fine at last test. Temp 79F. When I have time and am going by the LFS I will return both fish. It is hardly worth a special trip as the gas cost more than both fish.

[tanks4thememories]

Thanks Tanks.

It was all helpful. I am so glad I set a QT (20g) and caught this (whatever it is) before introducing new fish with problems into my 125g, which now has maybe 30 more fish than I have listed in my signature. I need to update that.

The sick guy seems to have improved some; is eating, rotated to an almost horizontal position, and moves about the tank more. I did a 80% WC and the water parameters were fine at last test. Temp 79F. When I have time and am going by the LFS I will return both fish. It is hardly worth a special trip as the gas cost more than both fish.

I hear ya. Like you said though, good thing you have a qt tank...:) Also if they have a shared filtration system you might want to wait a while before taking any more fish home from that store.

FYI: if you ever have a situation where a fish dies, and the store you purchased it from is very far from your house, a lot of LFS will let you return it later on as long as you speak to the mgr as soon as it dies and let them know the situation. Then you freeze the carcass in a plastic bag and take a water sample from the day it died. As long as you made arrangements to return it, And make sure you write down the mgr's name. I have had some of the LFS I deal with let me return the fish as long as 2 weeks after the actual death.

[nutsfu]

Hello
I recently moved some cherry shrimp from an Eclipse 3 tank to a new slightly larger tank. But as I was setting up the new tank, I put the shrimp (and some java moss) in a breeders box, into my main fish-only tank for one day.

I now suspect that the fish tank is infected with Myco (many fish have been dying for the last couple of weeks and the symptoms make me suspect Myco).

I also used some of the filter media from the fish tank to cycle the new shrimp tank. And I moved some Watersprite plants from the fish tank to the new shrimp tank.

So my question is, now that the shrimp are in their new home. How can I tell if I've transfered Myco from the fish tank to the new shrimp tank. Can the shrimp or plants have carried it over since they were in the fish water overnight. Or could I have introduced it with the filter media?

Are Cherry Red Shrimp or Red Crystal Shrimp affected by this disease or carriers of this disease?

So far the Cherry Shrimp all seem to be doing fine, and I was planning on ordering some Red Crystal Shrimp soon.

Thanks for any help

[tanks4thememories]

Hello
I recently moved some cherry shrimp from an Eclipse 3 tank to a new slightly larger tank. But as I was setting up the new tank, I put the shrimp (and some java moss) in a breeders box, into my main fish-only tank for one day.

I now suspect that the fish tank is infected with Myco (many fish have been dying for the last couple of weeks and the symptoms make me suspect Myco).

I also used some of the filter media from the fish tank to cycle the new shrimp tank. And I moved some Watersprite plants from the fish tank to the new shrimp tank.

So my question is, now that the shrimp are in their new home. How can I tell if I've transfered Myco from the fish tank to the new shrimp tank. Can the shrimp or plants have carried it over since they were in the fish water overnight. Or could I have introduced it with the filter media?

Are Cherry Red Shrimp or Red Crystal Shrimp affected by this disease or carriers of this disease?

So far the Cherry Shrimp all seem to be doing fine, and I was planning on ordering some Red Crystal Shrimp soon.

Thanks for any help

Without the following:
- Pictures
- A list of your water parameters
- & a Detailed description of symptoms,
no one can give you much information of value.

As far as can shrimp pass it on?
The short answer is, yes bacterial pathogens don't need to actually infect things to be transported by them. You can infect one tank with bacteria from another tank by simply not washing your hands in between secessions.

Advice:
List the information I referenced above and we will all see what we can come up with. If you can afford it and want a definitive answer any "pond vet" that does lab work would be able to take a sample from a dead fish and let you know if MYCO is present.

[nutsfu]

The tank is a 75 Gallon tank with an Eheim 2028 and an AquaClear 110. Has been cycled and up and running for 2 years.

My water parameters are:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: ~30
pH: around 7.0
hardness: very soft
Temp: 78 degrees (increased to 84 degrees for a few days last week due to high temperatures in the area at the time)

I do a 25% water change every other week.

The tank contains/contained Rainbow Sharks, Albino Rainbow Sharks, Flying Fox, Endlers Livebearers (male), Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras), Lampeye Killie, Otocinclus Catfish, Glowlight Danio, Leopard Longfin Danio, Ember Tetras, Cherry Barb, Dwarf Cory Cat.

I recently added some water-sprite plants, but the deaths were occurring before I added it. The plant came from a tank at the that had healthy looking fish, including many fry, so I doubt that is the cause of the health issues.

It may sound like a lot of fish, but other than the Sharks which range from 3-4 inches (one is about 5 inches) and the 2 Flying Foxes (2.5 inches long); all the other fish are very small, most about an inch long.

The fish that show the worst signs are the Endlers. A few of them have crooked spines, they can look like an “S” or “C” when looking down on them from above. Some of them (the normal looking ones) will stay in a corner of the tank, just below the surface. Some appear swollen only on the lower part of their bodies just where the head ends and the body begins, but as you move back along their bodies it is normal (no swollen abdomen). The rest of the Endlers look perfectly normal.

The only other fish to show any curvature is a Cherry Barb (I have 3 in total). Ever since I got them months ago one appears to have a slight lump and curvature on one side of its body, it’s very hard to see. The other 2 are fine and have grown since then. But that one has remained small. It still acts and eats normally.

Some of the Glowlight Danios have sunken in stomachs and others look perfectly normal. One recently developed Dropsy and died. One of the remaining Glowlight Danios had recently developed a dark area just past its head on one side, but it looks and acts normally otherwise.

Some of the Celestial Pearl Danios had sunken in stomachs and some would stay in a corner of the tank by the surface of the water. I added 3 more about 2 weeks ago that seemed healthy in the store, but all 3 died within a couple of days. They appeared normal before they died. All are gone now.

One of the Rainbow Sharks died the other day and showed no signs of anything wrong with him. All the other Sharks look, act and eat normally.

The Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras) are all gone.
Lampeye Killie - only had one left for a while, but it just died 2 days ago.
Otocinclus Catfish - only had a couple, one died about a month ago and appeared to have a swollen abdomen, but dead body did not float, one remaining alive.
Glowlight Danio - almost all gone.
Leopard Longfin Danio - I only had one for a long time, but it died within the last week.
Ember Tetras - only had a few left since I’ve had them ever since I set up the tank about 2 years ago, but they have been dying off within the past 2 weeks, maybe only 1 or 2 left.

On a daily basis there will be 1-4 dead small fish in the tank by the time I get home from work. And the other fish will have usually already started eating them by that point. I remove them as soon as I can, but some dead fish are hidden from view behind the prefilter sponges, I only see the decomposed bodies when I clean the tank.

I don’t see any distinguishing characteristics in the dead fish. Their eyes don’t appear to be popping out. Sometimes the abdomens appear swollen, but not always, and the abdomen appears to be what the other fish eat first.

I really hope it is not Myco but some other treatable ailment.

I can take pictures when I get home tonight if you would like.

Sorry for the long post and thanks again for the help.

[tanks4thememories]

The tank is a 75 Gallon tank with an Eheim 2028 and an AquaClear 110. Has been cycled and up and running for 2 years.

My water parameters are:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: ~30
pH: around 7.0
hardness: very soft
Temp: 78 degrees (increased to 84 degrees for a few days last week due to high temperatures in the area at the time)

I do a 25% water change every other week.

The tank contains/contained Rainbow Sharks, Albino Rainbow Sharks, Flying Fox, Endlers Livebearers (male), Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras), Lampeye Killie, Otocinclus Catfish, Glowlight Danio, Leopard Longfin Danio, Ember Tetras, Cherry Barb, Dwarf Cory Cat.

I recently added some water-sprite plants, but the deaths were occurring before I added it. The plant came from a tank at the that had healthy looking fish, including many fry, so I doubt that is the cause of the health issues.

It may sound like a lot of fish, but other than the Sharks which range from 3-4 inches (one is about 5 inches) and the 2 Flying Foxes (2.5 inches long); all the other fish are very small, most about an inch long.

The fish that show the worst signs are the Endlers. A few of them have crooked spines, they can look like an “S” or “C” when looking down on them from above. Some of them (the normal looking ones) will stay in a corner of the tank, just below the surface. Some appear swollen only on the lower part of their bodies just where the head ends and the body begins, but as you move back along their bodies it is normal (no swollen abdomen). The rest of the Endlers look perfectly normal.

The only other fish to show any curvature is a Cherry Barb (I have 3 in total). Ever since I got them months ago one appears to have a slight lump and curvature on one side of its body, it’s very hard to see. The other 2 are fine and have grown since then. But that one has remained small. It still acts and eats normally.

Some of the Glowlight Danios have sunken in stomachs and others look perfectly normal. One recently developed Dropsy and died. One of the remaining Glowlight Danios had recently developed a dark area just past its head on one side, but it looks and acts normally otherwise.

Some of the Celestial Pearl Danios had sunken in stomachs and some would stay in a corner of the tank by the surface of the water. I added 3 more about 2 weeks ago that seemed healthy in the store, but all 3 died within a couple of days. They appeared normal before they died. All are gone now.

One of the Rainbow Sharks died the other day and showed no signs of anything wrong with him. All the other Sharks look, act and eat normally.

The Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras) are all gone.
Lampeye Killie - only had one left for a while, but it just died 2 days ago.
Otocinclus Catfish - only had a couple, one died about a month ago and appeared to have a swollen abdomen, but dead body did not float, one remaining alive.
Glowlight Danio - almost all gone.
Leopard Longfin Danio - I only had one for a long time, but it died within the last week.
Ember Tetras - only had a few left since I’ve had them ever since I set up the tank about 2 years ago, but they have been dying off within the past 2 weeks, maybe only 1 or 2 left.

On a daily basis there will be 1-4 dead small fish in the tank by the time I get home from work.

I don’t see any distinguishing characteristics in the dead fish. Their eyes don’t appear to be popping out. Sometimes the abdomens appear swollen, but not always, and the abdomen appears to be what the other fish eat first.

I really hope it is not Myco but some other treatable ailment.

I can take pictures when I get home tonight if you would like.

Sorry for the long post and thanks again for the help.

Well 1st off I'm very sorry to see you going through this. If it makes you feel any better you have awesome maintenance practices so this has defiantly not befallen you due to bad tank conditions or improper maintainance. - Good Work!!

I appreciate you giving such detail and yes I would like to see the pictures ASAP.

Ok on to the problem.
- This defiantly sounds to be bacterial in nature.
- I am 90% convinced this is MYCO (A strong indication of this is multiple curved fish and the fact that they are curved or misshapen in different areas - this is due to the tumors which grow and push organs and healthy tissue out of the way as they grow.)
- Whatever it is, It appears you brought it home with some of the fish you purchased. - I know this is hindsight but Myco is one of the strongest examples of why people should use quarantine tanks and keep fish in them for 4-6 weeks prior to releasing them into their main tanks.
- Myco can often be very slow growing and very slow to present symptoms.

*IMPORTANT NOTE* Since there is such a strong possibility that this is MYCO and even if not at the very least it is a pretty bad bacterial infection - it is very important that from this point forward you are very careful with your hands and nets and children around: this tank, water from this tank, & the fish. Also you want to bury dead fish not flush them or put them into trash.

- Do not place hands into the tank if you have any scratches or cuts on you that will come into contact with tank water.

- Once finished working in the tank or handling dead fish use strong bleach solution to disinfect your hands, nets, and the sink you washed your hands in.

- Waste Water from water chances should be made to flow outside of the house preferably into some soil or grassy area (not discarded into toilet or sink)


Well I really need to see the pics but if this is MYCO or any other bacterial infection then there are 3 courses you can choose from:

1) Start immediate treatment of antibiotics and B Complex vitamins while sending a fish with a strong representation of the symptoms to a vet that does lab work and can verify pathogen. Choose further actions when results are in.

2) Option #1 but with out the vet and see how things proceed.

3) Euthanize fish (a preferred method is to put them into a container of water which has few drops of clove oil - anesthesia, Then add few drops of any 80 proof alcoholic beverage - They slip off and its widely believed that they do not feel any pain .), Bury them(do not flush or put in trash), Nuke ( A procedure which involves Soaking in strong bleach solution over night) tank and equipment and nets. Start over

Personally I would go with option #1 and if something is found go with #3. Otherwise If I wasn't too attached to the fish I would go straight to option #3.

Again I am really sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope your path through this trouble will be as easy as possible.

[nutsfu]

I tried to get some pictures of the crooked fish or fish with sunken in stomachs, but most of them have died already.

These are pictures of the only Endler (Endler/Guppy hybrid) that has a crooked spine.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04020.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04020.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04049.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04051.jpg

[nutsfu]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04054.jpg

This is the Glowlight Danio with its stomach starting to sink in. All the others that had much more extreme cases have already died.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04057.jpg

This is the other Glowlight Danio with a dark spot that has recently developed on its side.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04074.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04084.jpg

I called all the veterinarians in the area until I found one that would do lab work on dead fish, there was only one that does that type of work. The cost would be $475.

[tanks4thememories]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04054.jpg

This is the Glowlight Danio with its stomach starting to sink in. All the others that had much more extreme cases have already died.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04057.jpg

This is the other Glowlight Danio with a dark spot that has recently developed on its side.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04074.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/nutsfu/Fish%20Tank/DSC04084.jpg

I called all the veterinarians in the area until I found one that would do lab work on dead fish, there was only one that does that type of work. The cost would be $475.

Wow what a price difference . Its only @ 75.00 for the vet and same for the lab totaling 150.00 here.

Ok well unfortunately it looks like MYCO anyway so the decision is basically which of the options you wish to choose.

[teddscau]

One time my molly was very sick. I think it was tuberculosis. Her back was curving and she couldn't swim well. She was literally at death's door so I put her in a different tank to die in. It was the hospital tank and hadn't been cleaned from the last use. Unheated, small, no bubbler. I put her in there for over 2 days but she wouldn't die. In fact, she got better! There was Epsom salts in there so I wondered if Epsom kills TB. Her back straightened out and she became perky. I left her in there a while longer than put her back in the tank. Her baby died after biting her and the orange molly. The orange molly died too. I'm not positive whether or not she had TB but something saved her. She's alive and well. None of the others have died since except for one of my guppies.
She's still alive and perky. Epsom salts could be a possible cure to tuberculosis. Please PM me if any of you have tried Epsom salts and if it worked for TB. I used the dosage of Epsom salts that one person on some website suggested for dropsy.

[tanks4thememories]

One time my molly was very sick. I think it was tuberculosis. Her back was curving and she couldn't swim well. She was literally at death's door so I put her in a different tank to die in. It was the hospital tank and hadn't been cleaned from the last use. Unheated, small, no bubbler. I put her in there for over 2 days but she wouldn't die. In fact, she got better! There was Epsom salts in there so I wondered if Epsom kills TB. Her back straightened out and she became perky. I left her in there a while longer than put her back in the tank. Her baby died after biting her and the orange molly. The orange molly died too. I'm not positive whether or not she had TB but something saved her. She's alive and well. None of the others have died since except for one of my guppies.
She's still alive and perky. Epsom salts could be a possible cure to tuberculosis. Please PM me if any of you have tried Epsom salts and if it worked for TB. I used the dosage of Epsom salts that one person on some website suggested for dropsy.


There are a few reasons a fish can appear to have a curved spine. TB is but one of those reasons. I have never herd of Epsom salts curing TB. I am however by no means an expert so I would not presume to say I know what is and is not possible. Usually if a fish has the other symptoms associated with TB then we assume that is what it has. Without lab work there really is no way to tell except trial and error. We treat what is suspected and if it improves then we assume that what we treated for is what we had. The pathogen for TB is a bacteria. It can be treated although the success rate is quite low. There are also hobbyist documented cases of fish getting better on their own. I would imagine the fishes own immune system manages to prevail in these cases. If you are mucking around in a tank where a fish has active TB and you have an open cut on your hands or you do not wash your hands and you touch your mouth or other orifice of your body you can contract the human version of this illness. The success rate in treating humans with this illness is 100% once they identify that that is what you have.

From all of the above we can only tell a few things for sure.
1) Its good to thoroughly wash your hands after working in your aquarium
2) If you have open cuts on hands it is not a good idea to reach into an aquarium
3) Many people improperly diagnose TB in the first place thus at least some reported events of miraculous cures are erroneous due to the fact that the fish never had TB to begin with.
3) Many fish farms destroy the whole crop when they confirm diagnosis of TB
4) Real TB is very serious and extremely resistant to treatment.
5) It is transmissible to humans
6) There are cases of fish surviving TB and being placed back into main tank and living out their lives.
7) There are cases of TB disappearing and then returning.
8) I have personally seen no evidence that a fish once having the disease but currently not presenting symptoms has actually infected other fish or humans.

I wish I could tell you more detailed or conclusive information but without Lab results the best even a vet can give is an educated guess based on past experience and research.

[Lindsey]

One time my molly was very sick. I think it was tuberculosis. Her back was curving and she couldn't swim well. She was literally at death's door so I put her in a different tank to die in. It was the hospital tank and hadn't been cleaned from the last use. Unheated, small, no bubbler. I put her in there for over 2 days but she wouldn't die. In fact, she got better! There was Epsom salts in there so I wondered if Epsom kills TB. Her back straightened out and she became perky. I left her in there a while longer than put her back in the tank. Her baby died after biting her and the orange molly. The orange molly died too. I'm not positive whether or not she had TB but something saved her. She's alive and well. None of the others have died since except for one of my guppies.
She's still alive and perky. Epsom salts could be a possible cure to tuberculosis. Please PM me if any of you have tried Epsom salts and if it worked for TB. I used the dosage of Epsom salts that one person on some website suggested for dropsy.

Probably wasn't TB. If the cure was that easy someone would've discovered it ages ago, and there are tons of reasons a fish can have spinal curvature, just like there are tons of reasons any other animal can have it. I have a glofish that looks like a broken lightstick and he's been healthy since I got him a year ago.

[FishGirl-Seattle]

Holy cow! After reading that third link I've decided long gloves are a good investment, and no more using my mouth to start a siphon. Thank you for posting this! I'm really sorry that poor woman didn't didn't have a chance to read something like this before she landed in the hospital. Thank you very much for the cautionary heads-up.

[lotus flower]

I had this happen to one of my fish (a goldfish). The initial symptom was a curved back side-to-side, making him fold almost in half constantly (I thought it must have been crushed underneath an ornament or the filter and broken its back until I read up about the disease--aka "broken back disease"-- in a veterinary manual I happened to have lying around). Very sad, the fish became very ill, and since I had another one in the tank that had undoubtedly been exposed, both had to be euthanized. I ended up just throwing out the 10 gallon tank afterwards, because I didn't want to risk any infection to myself. The fish I buried out in the back yard (you never want to flush dead fish because pipes and the wastewater treatment center are not equipped to handle them--especially ones with TB).

[newbie235]

I have a bit of a problem. If I can't flush fish (which I have, ugh, before finding out what it was) with TB and the water they were in and I have to bury them and dump the water outside, I am in one major pickle. I live right next to a lake that have healthy fish in it and we also have well water. I don't want to expose the healthy fish and people to the fish TB. The water line rises when there is major amounts of rain.

I have two questions:
1) Should I find an aquarium cleaning company of sorts to dispose of things properly?
2) Is it possible that my fiddler crabs could have started the fish TB issue or caught it? I had fiddler crabs before my Mollies and the fiddler crabs seemed to die off quickly (maybe 2 to 3 months). The last two fiddler crabs I had before moving on to Mollies, I noticed that the female had a dark circle on her leg. The male had a dark hole in his large claw and it was within a dark circle. After the last crab died, I gave up and began with the Mollies (checking water/partial changes regularly) and they kept dying, but not as quick as my last die off. Maybe one a week. During the die off, two right away (newest additions) just died. Then another a couple of days later, then that is when I started noticing the problems. I'm on my last fish now, and she's most likely dead at this point. I also have one fry that seems totally fine, at the moment. The three bottom feeders are swimming about and eating like nothing has happened (they were part of the last introduction of fish before the Mollies began getting sick maybe a couple of days later).

[newbie235]

Doesn't sound like Myco.
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html (http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html)


Looking at that, my fish had a crap ton of problems. Fish TB, Dropsy, and Swim Bladder Disease. A couple seemed to have the Swim Bladder thing then died later of what seemed to be Dropsy (started off head pointed down; trying to wedge themselves in the right direction among the plants and then when they died, they had big bellies). I also had a couple that looked like they had Fish TB and maybe something else (c or s shaped bodies, somewhat bloated, struggled to eat/swim). They would dart (like spasms almost), stop and then sink and struggle to stay sitting up in the normal fish position.

[Lady Hobbs]

Good heavens. This thread is 5 years old. How did you even find it? LOL

Start a new thread.