Help with 29 gal mollies setup

[MolliesinHuntington]

Hi-

I've been planning a 29 gallon slightly brackish aquarium for breeding mollies. My girlfriend has a lot of older equipment from her parents, and I'm left wondering on some components.

1. None of the adjustable heaters were in working condition, so I wanted to ask if anyone had experience with the Tetra's 30-60 gal. adjustable heater. This is probably the only one I can afford right now (poor college student FTL), and our LFS is really overpriced on a lot of equipment.

2. We also have an Aquaclear 300 filter. From doing a quick search on the Internet, I found this filter is for 70 gallon tanks. When I did a 'dry' run of the tank (i.e. filling with tap water, turning on the filters and heaters to see if they worked well), I found the filter doesn't appear to turn the water too hard, when it's set to the lowest setting (it seems to have an adjustable intake). If it's not cycling the water too roughly, would it be OK for mollies?

[Sounguru]

On #1 just find a heater you can afford and will get the water up to around 82.... On #2 filter is perfect so no stress there.

Now I breed my mollies in straight freshwater with the temp around 82 and 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water. You will need at least one grow out tank or you will quickly become overstocked. Also by moving the larger fry out the next group will suddenly start growning and so on. Other than that easy to do and can be a lot of fun unless you are saving 40 babies from a SW tank at 2 in the morning because your black momma molley decided to drop and the scat thanks they are a tasty treat.

[MolliesinHuntington]

On #1 just find a heater you can afford and will get the water up to around 82.... On #2 filter is perfect so no stress there.

Now I breed my mollies in straight freshwater with the temp around 82 and 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water. You will need at least one grow out tank or you will quickly become overstocked. Also by moving the larger fry out the next group will suddenly start growning and so on. Other than that easy to do and can be a lot of fun unless you are saving 40 babies from a SW tank at 2 in the morning because your black momma molley decided to drop and the scat thanks they are a tasty treat.

When you say aquarium salt, are you talking about marine salt or tonic salt? I've got both, I assumed I should be using marine salt to put the water at a proper salinity to help cut back on the risks of diseases and parasites.

[Sounguru]

Black Mollies in my experience are the only ones that have real fungus or shimy issues the rest do just fine. I add the salt because I have several black females and a couple of males. If I did not have them I wouldn't add any.

What I use is Labeled Aquarium Salt and can be picked up at any big box or local LFS.

To Fight Fungus the salt, to fight the Shimies 82-86 degrees.

Marine salt will also work but keep the temp up with all mollies but with blacks it is a must.

[MolliesinHuntington]

How large are your grow out tanks? I've got a 29, a 20, 3 10's, and a 5. I was thinking about setting up the 3 10's for growing out.

Is setting up a 29 gal with the aforementioned filter and a sponge filter aggressive enough and will aquarium salt or marine salt clog either filter?

[Tolley]

Black Mollies in my experience are the only ones that have real fungus or shimy issues the rest do just fine. I add the salt because I have several black females and a couple of males.

I thought it was Sailfin Mollies that needed salts?

[troy]

Yes Sailfins mollies (Poecilia latipinna) need salt as well, but not aquarium salt they need sea salt.

[Sounguru]

I thought it was Sailfin Mollies that needed salts?

Black Mollies if they are a pure strain are sailfins...

I have a couple of sailfins in straight fresh no problems.... Most aquariums fish sold at anf LFS if not pure SW fish have been climatized and probably bred in pure fresh water. The breeders breed them in fresh to expand the market.

One thing I will let you know for the young to develop the sailfin they must have a large tank. I have not gotten any of mine to develop a full sail in a 29 but in the 62 it looks like the one in there that is male is gonna develop a full sail.

[troy]

I've read it takes 2 years for the sail to completely develop.

[Sounguru]

That maybe but I have one pushing 3 that has been in a 29 his whole life and he has no sail....

May have to run a little experiment after I rehome some of the fishies.... I'm wanting to do a grow out experiment anyway so I could add the sail part on to that...

[troy]

It's probably because it doesn't have enough space to develop it.

[Sounguru]

I'm thinking a 55 to grow out larger sized fry and a 29 to grow out smaller ones. Thing is my LFS tankes them at a rather small size so I really don't need to grow them out too large. So I may just runna 55 grow out with plastic plants too make them easy to remove.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Yes Sailfins mollies (Poecilia latipinna) need salt as well, but not aquarium salt they need sea salt.

No they do not, this is a myth that has been passed on for a number of years by many many people. It is however simply not the case, Mollies are not Brackish, they are simply extremely adaptable. Mollies are collected in full freshwater, brackish water, and full marine. People say they notice that their mollies do better with salt, and that is simply because they do not do proper maintenance on their tanks. A properly cared for Molly is a freshwater fish that requires water quality that matches that of Discus, salt in the water simply allows the molly keeper to get away with less than idea water conditions.

[Sounguru]

No they do not, this is a myth that has been passed on for a number of years by many many people. It is however simply not the case, Mollies are not Brackish, they are simply extremely adaptable. Mollies are collected in full freshwater, brackish water, and full marine. People say they notice that their mollies do better with salt, and that is simply because they do not do proper maintenance on their tanks. A properly cared for Molly is a freshwater fish that requires water quality that matches that of Discus, salt in the water simply allows the molly keeper to get away with less than idea water conditions.

Happen to disagree with you somewhat....

From our own AC on Mollies.

In the wild, the Molly is found in environments influenced by tidal waves. The environment created by a tropical flood or stream emptying into the sea is a typical Molly habitat. This means that your Molly will do much better if you keep it in a brackish aquarium. Mollies are capable of surviving in a fresh water aquarium as well, but will be more vulnerable to diseases. If you want to keep Mollies with other species, it is therefore recommended to choose other tropical species that tolerate a little salt, such as the Platy. 1 or 2 tablespoons of salt for each gallon of water is suitable. You can buy marine aquarium salt in most pet shops and fish stores. Frequent water changes is a must, otherwise salt will build up in the aquarium. Since the Molly is a tropical fish, the water temperature in the aquarium should be kept in the 75-80 F range. Avoid including driftwood in your aquarium decoration, since driftwood makes the pH lower. Mollies require a pH between 7 and 8. More suitable decorations are plants and rocks. When you decorate the aquarium, leave a larger area of open water for the Molly to swim around in.

Now while I was in Mexico I had the chance to look at some of the native fishes and we found Mollies in everything from clean saltwater to septic conditions drainage ditches... So if they had to have perfect water and were as senstive a fish to water conditions as you say then they would not be considered as Hardy a fish as they are. Now as far as those found in the Aquarium trade all have been adapted to fresh so I do not think salt is needed, but I have found salt does help the restiance of the Black Molly which is known for fungus outbreaks.

Now in no way am I saying that good water conditions aren't need as with any fish the better the water the better it is.

Another thing to keep in mind that I have found in the raising and breeding of mollies. Since I switch to a 90% herbaviore diet which is a natural type diet for them I have had brighter colors and less fry loss.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Not to disrespect the writer of that article but they are missing some vital info. You need to check out the 3 part article in Tropical Fish Hobbyist by Ted Coletti, president of the ALA - American Livebearers Association. Part 2 of the Article is entitled The Fancy Molly, Part 2: Proper Care and the Salt Myth. I'd like to highlight a couple of points from that article.

First thing to note is the following statement from his article: "In nature, mollies cover habitats ranging from inland mud swamps to coastal lagoons. This makes it erroneous to make an generalizations about the 'natural habitat' or 'water conditions' of any petshop or fancy molly... The latipinna (sailfin) complex of mollies, which get most of the grief from hobbyists and petshop owners, are euryhaline species, which means they can adapt to a wide range of salinities...Note the words here: they 'adapt to,' not 'demand,' salinity."

Second thing to not is a quote he prints from "Fancy molly pioneer and ALA Founder Dr. Joanne Norton." Dr Norton says the following, "If water changes are large enough and freuent enough, and if all the water is well aerated and circulated, livebearers (all the species I have kept) do fine without salt added to the water. If these conditions are not met, or if the fish are too crowded, then troubles appear. Thus, salt enables you to continue on or more poor tank management practices that are still harmfull even though the fish may survive them in the presence of salt..."

Now neither your or I are experts on the husbandry of P. latipinna, but the 2 people mentioned above are the experts. So the only erroneous statement in my origianl post was my mistaken reference to the molly as a "Freshwater fish."
Your restiance to fungus in Black Mollies is yet one more thing that can be taken care of with simple proper husbandry of these fish. The salt does just as Dr. Horton stated, it is in essence compensating for the lower water quality. Also, the statement of water conditions was not in reference to the absence of particulate mater, it was in reference to the absense of NH3/NH4, NO2, and NO3 in their environment. Even in those muddy ditches the levels of those 4 chemicals would have been low despite the dirty water.

[Sounguru]

Well Guess that code thing didn't work.... so here is the quote from the AC again.

In the wild, the Molly is found in environments influenced by tidal waves. The environment created by a tropical flood or stream emptying into the sea is a typical Molly habitat. This means that your Molly will do much better if you keep it in a brackish aquarium. Mollies are capable of surviving in a fresh water aquarium as well, but will be more vulnerable to diseases. If you want to keep Mollies with other species, it is therefore recommended to choose other tropical species that tolerate a little salt, such as the Platy. 1 or 2 tablespoons of salt for each gallon of water is suitable. You can buy marine aquarium salt in most pet shops and fish stores. Frequent water changes is a must, otherwise salt will build up in the aquarium. Since the Molly is a tropical fish, the water temperature in the aquarium should be kept in the 75-80 F range. Avoid including driftwood in your aquarium decoration, since driftwood makes the pH lower. Mollies require a pH between 7 and 8. More suitable decorations are plants and rocks. When you decorate the aquarium, leave a larger area of open water for the Molly to swim around in.

[Sounguru]

LMGB - I agree with most of that, but in my years of keeping Mollies and talking to others that have kept Mollies what is recommended by the experts does not mean that in real world applications that it works best... Sorry I put application above written word I have read many a book that says do it this way only to find if I do it that way my results are not as good if I do it another way.

Too be real honest with you as I said I do not think most mollies need salt, but Black Mollies do better with a little added to their tanks because of their known tendencies to get fungus. I have kept tanks of pure blacks and I have kept tanks of mixed colors. Only the blacks will break out in fungus when not a single other colored or a Hybrid will develop it. I have also noticed an increase in fry count and a quicker growth rate when a little salt is added.

Now regular water changes are a must and I recommend twice a week about 50 % if you are trying to breed and raise fry. You may need to do it more often if your fry tank become croweded.

It would be intresting to do a water test on the septic ditches to see what the water condition was but personally I wasn't gonna get that close..... without some serious protective gear.:hmm3grin2orange:

I'm sorry but as I said I do not believe that every written word is gospel when it comes to everyday application.

So we will just have to agree to disagree on this one....

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

LMGB - I agree with most of that, but in my years of keeping Mollies and talking to others that have kept Mollies what is recommended by the experts does not mean that in real world applications that it works best... Sorry I put application above written word

And that is fine, I can agree to disagree on things, but please note, that Dr Horton's writing is not just mere written word from an expert, it is based entirely on her own experience in keeping these fish. I too have kept mollies in an unsalted environment and had them thrive. One particular example I can give is of a baby that I was given by a friend of mine. That fish was raised in my tank with no salt present and it grew and thrived until I broke down the tank. That particular molly was in a heavily planted tank (the one in this month's TOTM contest) and the nitrates were at a constant level of <2ppm. It was fed a steady diet of prepared foods along with Bloodworms and Brineshrimp and that fish had better coloring then I have ever seen in a molly and it was completely disease free. Obvioulsy my experience and yours do not match, however in order for it to be an accurate comparison of methods, you would have to have kept your nitrate levels at a comarable levels to mine. It seems a more than just a little interesting that when I followed exactly what the 2 experts recommended, I ended up with the results they predicted. I believe that there exists a fundamental flaw in the advice being given by many molly keepers and it is the same fundamental flaw that exists with far too many Goldfish keepers. There are just as many people out there keeping Goldfish that will tell you they only live 10 years and grow to the size of their environment, they believe that because they have never provided the proper environment for them. I believe the same flaw exists with a large number of molly keepers, they believe they do better with salt or even that they require salt (I know you are not one of these) but they believe this because they have never provided the proper care for them.
Again, this is just my personal belief. We are free to disagree with one another. :14:

[Sounguru]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Well you had better agree or else.......


Like I said I have several mollies in unsalted tanks that are beautiful, since I switched to a 90% herbaviore dirt even more so, but my blacks are in a tank that is salted. Right now above the level of standard SW tank but that is a whole different story. When I keep my blacks in their normal tank it is salted because of fungus issues and I have found it to work better than any other means of controlling it. I have had tanks that are perfect on conditions with nitrates extremely low and still have fungus breakouts on the blacks only. So I am not convinced that salt does not provide some advantage to Black Mollies no matter what the experts may say....and there are other breeders I have talked to that have the same obsevation in my area.

What I found when I started the salt on the black grow out tank was that I had a faster growth rate than a comparable tank with no salt. I also discoverd when I salted the parents tank my fry count went up in batches that were fertalized after the salting. Now some of that can be contributed to the age of the momma fish but I also noticed a increase in first time momma fish than what I had gotten from previous first time momma fish. Now understand this applies to the Black Mollies only since they are the only ones I have kept in a constant state of a salted tank.

Now I will also state this was done in no way as a set test with even parameters besides the salt. I really don't see how that can be done in aquariums because just different amounts of light, like a little bit from a window can change the parameters.

Once I rehome some of my bigger fish I plan on seeing what happens in different sized grow out tanks and tanks with different parameters. So that will be a lot of fun.

But like I said these are my observations and are no way set in stone as fact .....[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[MolliesinHuntington]

Sorry to bump my old thread, but I got baby mollies for free at a local pet store, and they seem to be doing alright so far after being in the tank for a day. The tank is planted with anacharis and java moss. I guess now it's just a game of waiting to see how long it'll be before they get nice and big ;-)

[Sounguru]

Cool can't wait to see some pictures of them.

I can usually sex mine at 2 months but at 3 months they start to act like teenagers on lookout hill. I have not gotten a brood out of a female less than 6 months yet.

[MolliesinHuntington]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Perhaps this is the next best thing to pictures? They're so hard to get a good picture of...
Out of curiosity, if they are about 1/4" long, could you give a rough estimate as to how old they might be?

[Sounguru]

Depends on a few factors but I would say no more than 1 to 1 half months...

Little hard to see the fry bu tit looks like they are orange and black...