Newbie needs A LOT of help [Archive]

whitelavender

08-18-2008, 01:13 AM

Hi Guys - (thanks for your advice in advance!!)

I bought a small tank for my 5 year old son (only 39 litres/10 gallons)

As like many of us beginners, I was told either NO information about setting it up, or received incorrect information about caring for our new fish.

We set up the tank, without fish for 2-3 weeks. Had the water tested (which was fine) and then bought a couple of guppies to get us started (2 females & 1 male)

1-2 weeks later - checked water again by store (no probs) & was told we could get some more fish. We got 4 neons and 2 mollies. The man suggested to come back in 2 weeks for another water test.

Less than a week later, the tank started to smell terrible & it went darker & cloudy. 1 molly died, and we had the water tested - the ammonia level was through the roof!!

I was advised to do a half tank change immediately, and cleaned gravel etc. I also was told to stop feeding them for 2 days. The next day I tested water again, ammonia still high (I think 4.0) - half water change again, still not feeding them.

Just tested water - pH 7.2 Ammonia b/n 1.0-2.0 (yesterday it was b/n 2.0-4.0!!) nitrite 0.25. One of the female guppies died just now too. There are also 3 baby guppies swimming around too!

I know that the ammonia level is killing them, (after spending hours reading this website) but I just need to know what to do next. I understand the fishless cylcing techniques, but obviously I still have some fish left, so not sure what method to use to get the water (and fish) health again?

I have been advised from local aquarium to 1. stop feeding fish for next 2 days as least. 2. use "ammo lock" to immediately decrease ammonia level to try & save remaining fish & 3. 25% water change again today. Does this all sound right to the experts out there?? I am a little weary now of the sales people at the store as everyone has led me astray so far with incorrect information!!

Any advise would be greatly appreciated!! THANKS!

sushicat

08-18-2008, 01:24 AM

did you cycle

Nick_Pavlovski

08-18-2008, 01:48 AM

Yep, start using "ammo lock", don't feed them every day as that provides more nutrients (try every 2 days and only ass much as they eat in 5 minutes - scoop the rest off the top/out of the water) that will create ammonia and keep up those 25% daily water changes.

troy

08-18-2008, 01:51 AM

I wouldn't let them go without food for more than a week. So after a week feed them everyday whatever they can eat in a minute.

cathy_n

08-18-2008, 02:32 PM

I agree with Nick. It sounds like you're going to wind up cycling your tank with fish in it. Not much you can do about it now but ride it out. The optimal thing to do would have been to cycle the tank with no fish or only a couple guppies, but life very rarely hands us optimal situations. Kudos to you for trying to educate yourself and make the best of this.

It takes a bit of work, but if you're willing to do the work you will probably have some (if not all) fish left at the end of it. You'll have to keep testing the water and doing daily 25% water changes to get the ammonia levels down. If you don't have one, an ammonia test kit will be handy. Going to the pet store for water tests could become very wearying!

Ammo-lock and other ammonia-neutralizing products will convert the toxic ammonia to a less toxic form, but both the toxic and non-toxic forms will still show up on an ammonia test. Ammo-lock will help your fish within a few minutes for the short term. In the long term, you will need to use such emergency products in conjunction with frequent water changes to reduce the total ammonia level for the purpose of water testing.

For right now, I think you want the ammonia reading to be less than 1.0. The closer to 0.0, the better, but I'd consider 1.0 to be the upper limit. The fish will still be stressed at any ammonia level, but hopefully very few will die if you keep it low. My betta survived ammonia at 0.50 with peaks to 1.0. I don't have much experience with guppies and tetras... they may be more sensitive to ammonia. Anyone else care to chime in here?

Once the ammonia level is lower than 1.0, feed them sparingly. Feed once a day if the ammonia is less than 1.0. If the ammonia reaches 1.0, fast the fish and do a water change that day. Definitely watch them eat. You want to get a feel for how much they will eat right away and then feed that amount. It might only be a couple flakes per fish. The less overfeeding you do, the less frequently you will need to change the water and vacuum the gravel.

Since you've been doing some reading, you're probably aware that after the ammonia starts to fall, another poison (nitrite) will begin to rise. Keep up the water changes and water tests during that period as well. Your ultimate goal is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and < 20 nitrate. It may take a month or two, as some of the bacteria grow quite slowly.

Good luck!

Commodore 64

08-18-2008, 02:57 PM

Water conditioners like Seachem Prime will detoxify ammonia, and you'd be using that during your water changes. Check to see if your water conditioner does or does not detoxify ammonia. There's no need to add extra chemicals to your tank if it doesn't need it. Invest in a test kit...for now you should be testing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every day...once the tank gets established, this isn't such a big deal. Note that you will continue to read ammonia levels, even after you detoxify it...at this point you are looking for a nitrite spike folowed by nitrate production. This means your cycle is working.

Once cycled, you'll have 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, and 10-40 Nitrates depending on how long it's been since your last water change.

Do you know anyone else with an aquarium? If you do, try to get some media from their tank filter to jump-start your own. Another member here has a good method for seeding new tanks...he scrapes the bio-wheel from an established tank into his own...this dumps a bunch of bacteria into your tank which happily starts munching away on your ammonia.

Failing this, a handful of gravel from your LFS stuffed in a pantyhose and hung in your tank would go a long way towards establishing your cycle.

Light feedings + daily 25% water changes should get you where you need to be. Once the tank is cycled, weekly 25% water changes should suffice. In the meantime, be careful not to disturb your filter media or gravel too much..you don't want to be killing off good bacteria. Resist the urge to clean your filter...at most just lightly swirl it in tank water during a water change to get the coarse gunk off, but never run it under the tap.

terrapin24h

08-18-2008, 03:44 PM

sorry you've been lead down the wrong path and have lost fishes as a result. Here's what i think you should do:
1--get test kit(API master kit is about 30bucks, but does all you need, i use and like it alot)
2--where are you? maybe there is a board member nearby that will give you some gravel to seed. If you're near me, i certainly have some to spare.
3--i'm the guy that does the biowheel thing, and can say it will near instantly cycle a tank. If you have another tank with a bio media in it you can try that trick
4--this is very important DO NOT vac your gravel during cycling!!! Gravel is one of the prime spots for the bacteria colony to settle on and vac-ing the gravel sucks them up. Once your tank is good and cycled(0 AMM, 0 trite, 20-40 trate) then you vac your gravel, but only do 1/4-1/2 of it at a time.
5--Do 25% water changes daily to keep your amm level between 1 and 2

On the ammonia locking products(be it ammo lock or a water conditioner like prime):
These products make you water safe to the fish as they prevent the fish from absorbing the ammonia into their bloodstream by way of some fancy chemistry, but they do not remove it from the water; which is good cause then the bacteria can take thier time growing and feeding on it. One side affect of these agents is that they will show you have super high amounts of ammonia(thereby effectively killing the accuracy of your kit) don't worry about it, it's normal. I use prime(as do many others here) and if i take an ammonia reading after dosing with it, my kit shows lots of ammonia. A day later it reads correctly.

Good luck and if you post your readings to this thread, we'll be able to help you through it. Also post when you do water changes and how much you pull. No more fish until your cycle finishes. If you have some high protein food(freeze dried brine shrimp for example) the live bearers would appreciate getting some of that when you feed(i'd say feed every other day once/day until cycle finishes). Don't wash any decor in tap water, clean your filter, or add untreated tap water to your tank as this too can kill your bacteria. Yer in for a bit of a ride, but we'll help you through it. GL

--chris

whitelavender

08-18-2008, 10:21 PM

Commodore 64

08-18-2008, 10:55 PM

yep, some of that ammonia is being converted to nitrites.

What tap water conditioner do you use?

whitelavender

08-18-2008, 11:30 PM

The conditioner I have is made by AQUA-PIC'S (it's Australian made).

I am using it for every water change, also using "Cycle" at water change too.

terrapin24h

08-19-2008, 01:32 AM

yay! you're on your way. With your ph under 7, you don't need ammo lock, as the ammonia exists in the water in a non toxic form. If, as you continue to do water changes, your ph continues to slide, you may need to add some baking soda to the water to increase your KH and your ph. Let's keep an eye on it for now. If your ph gets too close to 6 your fish will stress for a different reason, and your cycle will stall. That cycle stuff is reported to help to some people, so i'd keep using it. keep us posted!

--chris

whitelavender

08-19-2008, 04:38 AM

Should I be concerned about a pH of 6.6??

Nick_Pavlovski

08-19-2008, 07:26 AM

I think 6.6 is OK.
If you use rainwater (straight outta the sky and onto your roof then collected from a downpipe), you'll notice it's just on the 6 side of 7, 7 of course being pure neutral...

terrapin24h

08-19-2008, 12:06 PM

6.6 should be ok for the fish you have, you just don't want it changing alot or continuing to fall. Incidentally, rainwater can be varying Ph levels depending on pollution levels in the area. Having lived in a city that had "acid rain" i can attest that not all rainwater is a ph of 7 :) Pure water(H2O) is actually a ph of 7 as the two positively charged H atoms electrically cancel out the negatively charged O atom (h is +1 and o is -2) resulting in a electrically neutral compound. So depending on where you live you may have non neutral rain water, and you almost certainly have tap water that has been messed with by your water company(mine somehow strips out all buffering capacity -KH- from our water which causes my ph to drop everytime i change my water unless i add some baking soda to it) Keep us posted, looking good!

--chris

Lady Hobbs

08-19-2008, 01:31 PM

Thanks so much everyone for your great (and very quick) advice.

I used the "ammo-lock" and did 25% water change again yesterday.

Water tested again this morning - ammonia 1.0, nitrite 0.5 & pH 6.6

I am assuming that the tank is starting to cycle??!!

The fish haven't been feed now for 48 hours (and when I feed them then, it was only a tiny amount, and they were fasting for 48 hours prior to that too)

The fish actually look a little better to me (I'm no expert of course). The remain mollie looks quite stressed, hiding in the plants etc, but the neons and 2 remaining guppies are swimming around ok I think.

Unfortunately I don't know of anyone with a tank to steal some gravel or media from. Thanks for the offer of some gravel, but I'm in Australia, and might prove a little difficult!! Might venture up to the LFS & asked them there.

Good luck with that cycle. Those small tanks are harder to cycle than the larger ones because they get much more toxic. I never used an ammonia remover, myself, but just did water changes according to the levels of ammonia I had. If I had ammonia levels of 1, I would do a water change of about half. If I had ammonia levels of .50, I would let it go until it went a bit higher.

The guy at the fish store could have advised you to use danio's to cycle or just get some feeder goldfish for that purpose. Neons are really not very good fish to use for cycling, IMO.

What will take you a while is the nitrites. It takes longer for that bacteria to grow than the ammonia bacteria. This, too, must not get too high or also will kill the fish and does them a lot of damage in the long haul if they are in nitrites too long.

Feed very sparingly, clean NOTHING, turn your temps up to 80-82 and aerate your tank. (bacteria loves oxygen and warmth) Getting a handful of used gravel is a very good idea and if the fish store will give you some that will be great but make sure it comes from an ICK FREE TANK. If they would give you some used filter media, as well, even better.

I personally would not chose Mollys for your tank. They are live bearers and have a lot of babies and the males will be aggressive with one another. A big group of neons and coreys would be awesome, tho.

Good luck and stay patient.

whitelavender

08-20-2008, 02:43 AM

Thanks for all your help & support so far - I couldn't do this without you all!!

Water test results today -

Ammonia 1.0
pH 7.0
Nitrite 0.25

I feed them a teeny tiny bit last night, and won't feed them again until tomorrow. One of the guppies looks very stressed. She either is very still, or darting around everywhere for a second, then still again. The mollie is also sick, he is crawling under the plants and staying very still all the time. I keep thinking he is gone, and when I go to get him out, he darts to another hiding place. The remain male guppy and neons appear to be acting normal to me.

Anyway - should I keep doing the water changes everyday until ammonia & nitrite are 0? And NO cleaning - and I will try and get some gravel if I can.

Thanks everyone - I'll keep you posted!!

terrapin24h

08-20-2008, 12:14 PM

looking good; I think you want to hold off on water changes for now. Your ammonia is nice and low but if it goes lower your cycle could stall. You want to keep your ammonia lvl between 1 and 2(pref closer to 1) so that you get the bacteria to form in enough quantity while not making the water overly toxic. keep us posted

--chris

whitelavender

08-21-2008, 02:03 AM

Tested water again this morning - Ammonia 1.0 Nitrite 0.25 pH 7.0
So - stable from yesterday.

However - one of the guppies has DISAPPEARED. I have looked everywhere for her.....GONE!!! She was looking average yesterday, so I wouldn't have been surprised if she died today, but she is nowhere!! Is it possible for a guppy to die, and be eaten completely by 4 neons, 1 guppy & 1 mollie??

I have seriously checked the tank thoroughly, even taken plants out & searched inside the plants - she's gone!! And - no - she's not in the filter!!

WHAT'S GOING ON???? LOL

whitelavender

08-21-2008, 02:04 AM

Tested water again this morning - Ammonia 1.0 Nitrite 0.25 pH 7.0
So - stable from yesterday.

However - one of the guppies has DISAPPEARED. I have looked everywhere for her.....GONE!!! She was looking average yesterday, so I wouldn't have been surprised if she died today, but she is nowhere!! Is it possible for a guppy to die, and be eaten completely by 4 neons, 1 guppy & 1 mollie??:confused:

I have seriously checked the tank thoroughly, even taken plants out & searched inside the plants - she's gone!! And - no - she's not in the filter!!

WHAT'S GOING ON???? LOL

whitelavender

08-21-2008, 02:19 AM

Ok, I jumped the gun.......found her in the middle of one of the plants...(dead though)

So, then there were 6.......

If the rest of these fish survive this cycling it will be a miracle!

cathy_n

08-21-2008, 09:33 PM

Ok, I jumped the gun.......found her in the middle of one of the plants...(dead though)

So, then there were 6.......

If the rest of these fish survive this cycling it will be a miracle!

Sorry to hear about the loss of the fish... she may have been injured before you began to take action and just could not recover. I think you're doing just fine now that you're monitoring everything and have researched the problem a bit.

I'm also sorry that, collectively, we're all giving you such confusing information! I guess cycling is more of an art than a science. Everyone has done it differently and brings different experiences to the table.

For the record, I cycled my 2.5 gallon tank even though I kept the ammonia between 0.25 and 1.0 ppm (with water changes every time it hit 1.0). It took about six weeks to complete. I did use the "Cycle" bacteria product for the last two weeks. I couldn't tell you if it helped or not.

I don't know if my experience is typical or not, as an above poster believes your tank's cycle will be slowed down significantly if ammonia is kept below 1.0 ppm. You'll have to decide what you want. Higher ammonia levels are more damaging to the fish, which is why I kept mine low. It's hard to say whether higher ammonia for less time or lower ammonia for a longer time is more harmful to the fish in the long run. My primary concern was not the fastest cycle possible, but the one that would produce the least gill and body damage for my poor betta.

Whatever you decide, I hope your fish thrive. You're doing what you can with a bad situation, and I think you're doing quite well. Good luck!

whitelavender

08-22-2008, 03:34 AM

terrapin24h

08-22-2008, 01:58 PM

were it me, i'd add some ammo lock(your ph is over 7 so ammonia is toxic now) and do no water changes. sorry bout your guppy

--chris

bluekrissyspikes

08-22-2008, 02:15 PM

i would suggest to keep doing small water changes during the cycle...maybe every 3 days or so. the good bacteria grows in the filter for the most part so it won't get disturbed. it is only a myth that doing water changes will stall your cycle. just don't clean the filter and make sure to treat the water for clorine/cloramine before adding it to the tank or to turn the filter off while you are refilling. good luck. i lost a lot of fish in my first cycling experience too, because of misinformation i got from the pet store. you found this site a bit faster than i did so you are lucky that way.

cathy_n

08-22-2008, 04:25 PM

Hi Guys,

Okay - water test today

ammonia 1.0
pH 7.0
nitrite 0.5

Should I do a water change because the nitrite is creeping up, you is that just part of the cycle, and have to ride it out??

I got some gravel from the tank at my son's kinder, so not sure if it maybe speedy things up a bit?

The remaining mollie is very stressed, not sure if it's more humane just leaving him and waiting for him to die, or make it quick for him? I feel terrible about both options really, & still so mad at myself for not researching and asking enough questions at LFS before setting up the tank.

Thanks everyone!!

Personally, I'd do a water change. Both ammonia and nitrite can interfere with gill function.

I have read that nitrite is much more lethal than ammonia and thus smaller amounts of it can injure your fish. Nitrite can bind to blood cells and inhibit the transport of oxygen by the cells. This will cause your fish to suffocate even if the oxygen levels in the water are good.

Rising nitrite levels generally correspond with a second wave of fish deaths while a tank is cycling, unless they are kept in check with frequent water changes. It would be good to keep those levels low and watch your fish for signs of gasping.

whitelavender

08-25-2008, 12:47 AM

Just thought some of you might like an update?

Water tested today -

Ammonia 0.25
pH 7.0
Nitrite 1.0

Continuing with 30% water changes every second day, and feeding small amount every second day.

Remaining guppy & neons appear to be acting normal to me. Remain Molly still very stressed and spends his whole time hiding in the plants, and not eating.

Thanks for all your help.

How long should I expect Nitrites to remain high before completion of cycling??

terrapin24h

08-25-2008, 12:56 AM

it depends, maybe 5-7 days is your tank is in the high 70's(77-79)

Commodore 64

08-25-2008, 11:01 AM

Yeah it takes longer for the nitrite-eating bacteria to develop than it does for the ammonia-eating ones. Just hang in there and continue doing what you are doing.

whitelavender

08-28-2008, 04:34 AM

Hi Guys,

Just an update for everyone who have been so kind helping me out.

Water Test today:

Ammonia 0.0 (Yeah!!! - never thought that was going to happen!!)
pH 7.0
Nitrite 1.0

Water temp is at 27c/80F. Feeding every 2-3 days still and also doing water changes every 2-3 days.

I don't have a test for nitrate - how important is that one?

Also - a question about my filter.

I am using the 'Elite HUSH 10'. I have been told to replace the filter cartridges every month (these are the ones with the carbon inside) & I know not to change the media filter - Is this right??

Also - I managed to get some gravel to speed up my cycle. It's still hanging on the side of the tank in a stocking (very attractive!) - should I just take it out now? leave in for longer? Cut open stocking and let gravel mix in with mine?

Thanks again guys for all your support!

Commodore 64

08-28-2008, 11:38 AM

Nitrite 1.0
I don't have a test for nitrate - how important is that one?

It's not as important, but it would be nice to know your 'trate levels so that you have a general idea if your water change schedule is sufficient. That nitrite level is pretty high, that's a nice spike. Let's hope the nitrite-eating bacteria kick in now!

I am using the 'Elite HUSH 10'. I have been told to replace the filter cartridges every month (these are the ones with the carbon inside) & I know not to change the media filter - Is this right??

I'm not familiar with the elite hush. It's made by Hagen, who also makes FLuval and Aquaclear (which are very good).

Is that cart, the only filter media in there? If this is your only filter, I would pretty much never change it. After your cycle is finished, on your next water change, you can swirl it around/rub it gently in the tank water to get some of the nastiest stuff off, but this is where most of your beneficial bacteria will be so you do not want to replace it. If that filter only contains a single cartridge, I would highly suggest that you find someway to supplement that filter, in order to keep a 2nd major source of bacteria in the event that you need to replace the entire cartridge. Some quick thoughts:

1. A sponge filter. They are hooked to an air pump, are cheap and shrimp love to pick around on them.

2. An additional filter-pretty self explanatory.

3. A sponge prefilter. You can put this on your intake tube, and it will build up bacteria of it's own. Then you can replace the cart in the filter if it falls apart or something (which might happen after several months of rinse and reuse).

Don't worry about the carbon. Most people believe, and I do as well, that carbon is really only needed in rare circumstances (removing meds is one).

Also - I managed to get some gravel to speed up my cycle. It's still hanging on the side of the tank in a stocking (very attractive!) - should I just take it out now? leave in for longer? Cut open stocking and let gravel mix in with mine?

If you like the gravel, dump it in there. If you don't, shake that stocking and grind the rocks around to release some of the bacteria, and take it out. It has probably done it's job by now.

cathy_n

08-28-2008, 10:22 PM

I am using the 'Elite HUSH 10'. I have been told to replace the filter cartridges every month (these are the ones with the carbon inside) & I know not to change the media filter - Is this right??

Great news about the ammonia! :19:

As for your filter question... I looked up your filter and it seems to use two different inserts, carbon and foam?

Replace the carbon one monthly (or don't use one at all, your choice). Carbon will pull stuff out of your water until it is saturated, then that stuff will start leaking back out of the carbon into your tank again. So it's important, if you use carbon, to change the carbon regularly.

You can lightly rinse the gunk off the foam insert in some used tank water at water changing time. I just swish mine around in the used water bucket. Never use tap water as the chlorine will kill the bacteria.

Never replace both the carbon and the foam at the same time, since you will need for one to "seed" the other with bacteria.

I think that covers it!

terrapin24h

08-29-2008, 12:39 PM

Congrats!
On the carbon, i second the removal. Only use carbon if/when you need it. I stopped using carbon and my water is so clear it's scary. Not only will carbon eventually leech back into the water, it will also leech phosphates into the water if its not an "acid washed" grade of carbon, and even then it will leech some. I had lots of brown "algae"(actually diatoms) in my tank and when i pulled the carbon out it died off quite nicely(which put my otos in an unexpected quandary). As others have said carbon will pull out all chemical compounds from the water, even the good ones! I actually make my own carts for my filter out of a media carrier my filter came with and some filter floss. Works very very well and i can get about 2weeks out of a packing. Good job on the cycle, now sit back and enjoy!

--chris

fishloverforever

08-30-2008, 01:12 PM

I agree with those that say that you don't need to feed your fish more than twice a day. Based on my aquarium fish knowledge feeding more than twice a day can harm your fish' health.

whitelavender

09-01-2008, 11:22 PM

Okay - update!!

Remaining Molly died yesterday. Ammonia level remaining at 0, nitrite level still at 1.0. pH stable at 7.0.

Doing second daily water changes, and second daily feeds.

Just waiting for the nitrite to come down I guess, and everything to stabilize!

Commodore 64

09-02-2008, 11:02 AM

If that molly was your last fish, you need to supplement the ammonia in y our tank so that the bacteria don't die.

You can due this with pure ammonia or, if you can't get that, you'll have to add some food to the tank so it can break down.

whitelavender

09-04-2008, 01:21 AM

No - I still have 4 neon tetras & 1 male guppy left!!

Great news - re-checked water today (haven't had time to do a water change for 4-5 days) and the results amazed me!!!

Ammonia - 0.0
pH 7.0
Nitrite 0.0

AMAZING!!!!!!!!

Okay - what now????? The water level is good. Should I increase the feeds? I am only feeding them once every 2-3 days. Also, water changes still once a week, or less often now the tank is cycled??

I was keen to maybe replace some of the fish that died. Not sure what to get though? I really love the tetras, maybe get some more, and a dwarf gourami? Obviously don't want to crowd in the 10 gallon tank....and I realize that I will have to keep an eye on the water if I get some more fish.

Thank you so, so much to everyone for their advice over the pat couple of weeks, I honestly don't think I could have done it without your help and support!!

Cheers,
Renea