10GL cycle crashed Ammonia building up

[gRuNg3b0y]

Hi, I posted the "Back and starting over again" thread and it's about my 10GL cycling log. I managed to cycle it for 2 months (May 13 - July 23). Now the tank is cycled I bought some fish (8 Neon tetras) and the tank went pretty well (Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5.0) for about a week and a half or so. Then my girlfriend bought a Dwarf Gourami that she saw at the pet store and added it in the tank so now I have 8 neons and 1 dwarf. And couple of days after, a trace of ammonia was read in my test kit (between .25 and .50) first thing I did was reduced feeding and at least 75% water change 3 times a week. And last night, ammonia reached to 1.0 and theres 0 nitrites and so as nitrates pH is 6.0 Today I did about 80% water changed and ammonia decreased to .25 I added 4 drops of prime on my tap water before adding it to the tank then added 10ml of stress coat and 10ml ammo lock after. And that's pretty much what I do in maintenance. Oh and the food I feed them is tetra min tropical crisps and every weekend a half cube of freeze dried tubifex worms.

Well I hope I gave enough information about what happen and if there's some missing please feel free to ask. I'm looking for all the opinions and advices I could get my hands on just for the sake of the fish.

Thanks

[fins_n_fur]

Odd. What kind of filter do you have and what is it rated for? I wonder if you are feeding too much?

[Mvjnz]

I would think that your filter simply can't handle the bioload. Try adding another filter sponge or getting a bigger filter.

[gRuNg3b0y]

I have 2 aquaclear filter. one for 20GL and for 70GL both have sponge and bio rings. as for feeding, I put 3 pieces of flakes (tetra min) twice a day and now it's just once a day and a half cube of tubifex freeze dried worm every weekend.

[nwnittany]

I know there are differing views on this, but I think the problem could be the pH.

I've read that the nitrification process is greatly inhibited at lower pH levels.

The pH is also a vital factor in nitrification. Maximum rates of nitrification occur at pH values above 7.2, peaking at 8.3 (a common pH for marine tanks) then falling at higher values. What surprised me was the rate at which the effectiveness of nitrification dropped in acidic pH values: to less than 50% optimal efficiency at pH 7.0, to just under 30% at pH 6.5, and to just over 10% of maximal efficiency at pH 6.0. At these low pH values, nitrifying bacteria don't die, they just stop metabolizing and reproducing.

I got that from here (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml)

I've seen it a few other places as well.

On the flip side, some guys on this site (I think GB was one) have had good success cycling with a low pH.

[gRuNg3b0y]

Yeah my pH was pretty low since the beginning (6.0) it only goes up after my water change. Now that I know the bacteria don't die I hope I didn't kill it by washing my foam using the water from the tank (not tap). I remember you told me that crushed corals or baking soda should stabilized my pH does the LFS sell crushed corals? As for baking soda, do I just add it directly in the tank or add it in the filter?

Thanks

[nwnittany]

You can add baking soda directly to the tank water or mix it in when you do a water change. If you are using crushed coral, I'd either put that in the filter or hang it in a stocking on the side.....

[gRuNg3b0y]

I'll probably do the baking soda first thing later. Any idea how much I should put?

Thanks

[gRuNg3b0y]

Ammonia reached to 2.0 in less than 24 hours. This isn't good.. should I do every other day feeding instead of once a day??

[DaveS]

You seem to be doing rather large water changes. Don't forget that your water is the food supply for your biological filter.

It is not unusual for ammonia to reach 2.0 during cycling even though it may be harmful in the longer term. Perhaps your tank is mini cycling. Ammonia at 0.5 for a short time wouldn't be a big enough reason for me to do a water change, and I'd avoid it at that point. But I'd be watching carefully...

I think you should do a gravel vac to remove waste.

[gRuNg3b0y]

Yeah I was doing large water changes right now I just did a small water change so ammonia went from 2.0 to .25 so I'll keep in mind on doing small water change

Thanks

[gRuNg3b0y]

Alright you'll find this very very odd. I mean literally odd! I added 1 table spoon of baking soda (I think I added too much) so it made my water really cloudy. I tested the water for Ammonia and guess what, it's off chart I mean the color is not even green its kinda blue-ish. so I did a 50% water change ASAP! My question is, should an off the chart readings of Ammonia kill the fish instantly?? It's not that I wanted them to but they seem pretty ok. Doing what they always do.. I have a feeling that it might be the test kit that's having the problem.. I'am so confuse...

[DaveS]

OK, take a step back. A high pH will make the ammonia more toxic. Avoid a high pH right now. Anything over 7 can be a problem.

Furthermore, you shouldn't change anything like pH until you are cycled and stable. You need to get the cycle sorted first.

[Sharkman]

just stick with it. Don't vacuum the gravel. Small water changes are good. Do you have any friends with tanks that would be willing to give you some of their established gravel to put in your tank to speed up the cycle?

[DaveS]

Don't vacuum the gravel.
Vacuuming removes waste which reduces ammonia production. I have found this helpful during cycling. The risk of upsetting the beneficial bacteria can be offset by the advantages.

[Lady Hobbs]

For one thing, a PINCH of baking soda! Like Dave says, leave your tank alone. The more you mess with it and add stuff, the more problems you'll have. You raise your pH, do a huge water change, refill tank and your pH is right down there again. You add baking soda again and the pH shoots back up.

This kills fish.

Leave your gravel and filter media alone and feed sparingly.

[gRuNg3b0y]

did a 90% water change today added ammo lock and prime.

[gRuNg3b0y]

pH went down from 7.2 to 6.8

[guy121]

That is all you're stocked with and you're getting high ammonia? Are you sure your tests are reading it properly. What I would do is take a sample of your water. Test it. Then bring down another sample to your LFS and have them test it (they should do it for free). This will let you know if your test kit is off.

Even at a PH of 6 you shouldn't be having this bad of problems.

I have a single AquaClear 30 with 1 sponge, 3 biomax, and purigen on my 10g. I have 4 dwarf puffers (messy eaters), 4 otocinclus (eat all the time = poop all the time), and probably 40+ Malaysian Trumpet Snails (can see their poop all over the substrate). I haven't had a single problem with ammonia or nitrites. So its really odd that you are having issues with two filters.

If you're doing 80% waterchange, then go ahead and add 1ml of prime. If it is any other dechlorinator you often have to add more (read directions). I believe what might be happening is you're killing your bacteria by only adding 4 drops of prime to your water before you toss it in your tank. 80% WC = 8 gallons, correct?

If so then on my label of prime it says 5ml for 50gallons. So go ahead and do 1ml for those 8 gallons. I just tested my dropper (it is labeled) and 4 drops is only something like .16ml. If your water is high in chlorine then it won't be enough. I counted somewhere around 24-25 drops for 1ml of prime. Be sure to add it to the water before hand. I often just put it in the bucket first then add the water so it gets a good mixture into the new water. Then I pump it into the tank.

[gRuNg3b0y]

That is all you're stocked with and you're getting high ammonia? Are you sure your tests are reading it properly. What I would do is take a sample of your water. Test it. Then bring down another sample to your LFS and have them test it (they should do it for free). This will let you know if your test kit is off.

Even at a PH of 6 you shouldn't be having this bad of problems.

I have a single AquaClear 30 with 1 sponge, 3 biomax, and purigen on my 10g. I have 4 dwarf puffers (messy eaters), 4 otocinclus (eat all the time = poop all the time), and probably 40+ Malaysian Trumpet Snails (can see their poop all over the substrate). I haven't had a single problem with ammonia or nitrites. So its really odd that you are having issues with two filters.

If you're doing 80% waterchange, then go ahead and add 1ml of prime. If it is any other dechlorinator you often have to add more (read directions). I believe what might be happening is you're killing your bacteria by only adding 4 drops of prime to your water before you toss it in your tank. 80% WC = 8 gallons, correct?

If so then on my label of prime it says 5ml for 50gallons. So go ahead and do 1ml for those 8 gallons. I just tested my dropper (it is labeled) and 4 drops is only something like .16ml. If your water is high in chlorine then it won't be enough. I counted somewhere around 24-25 drops for 1ml of prime. Be sure to add it to the water before hand. I often just put it in the bucket first then add the water so it gets a good mixture into the new water. Then I pump it into the tank.

I also thought that my test kit might be off as well. And yeah I might also killed some of my bacteria since that I messed with the filter media couple of times (one of the neon keeps getting sucked in). As for prime, I add four drops in every 4 liter of tap before adding it in the tank. It takes me about 4 buckets of tap water (4 liter) to fill it up so I'm using about 16 drops total. So instead of 4 drops of tap every 4 liter should I add 1ml every 4 liter? I don't really want to add the plain tap water in the tank first then adding the prime well unless I can do that.

PS: I already fixed the problem about the neon getting sucked in.

[DaveS]

Just to make it clear, a 10G tank would hold around 35L of water, as one litre is a little over a quart.

1ml of liquid is around 15 drops.

Your label should say... some amount of product per some amount of water. If you can post this, others may be able to check for you.

[terrapin24h]

whoa. Sorry i missed this thread. First off: stable ph. If you don't have a stable ph you won't have happy(read living) fish. Being as that you're in a cycle, try to keep it a scooch below 7. If your ph beings to fall towards 6, add 1/4 *teaspoon* of baking soda per 5 gal of water gradually across 3 or 4 hours. It's really quite potent and you don't need alot. Easy does it. It sounds like you might have water with a low KH, and that's why your ph fell--happened to me and some others on the board just recently as well. Whenever i do a water change i must add baking soda or my ph drops like a rock

Next, ammonia: Using ammo lock and prime(which also takes care of ammonia) can cause false high ammonia readings. Stop using ammo lock(if your ph is below 7 you don't need it). Test your water before you change it, and make sure it's been over 24 hours since the last change-- the prime bottle i have says it can give false ammonia readings on any test kit for up to 24 hours, and i've confirmed this. Your ammonia is probably not as high as you think it is. Stay light on your feedings and don't do massive water changes until you get the hang of adding baking soda(i've gotton to the point where I draw out 5 gal from my 30 and add the 1/4 tsp to the new water with my prime, and my tank stays solid right near 7) i'd assume every tank is different so start with a 1/4 tsp gradually and go from there. You must get your alkalinity stable before you worry about anything else. Do you use carbon? Carbon can over time leech stuff into the water that i have read can soften it and therefore drop your ph. Work on one thing at a time in increments and your tank will naturally fall back in line. keep us posted

--chris

[gRuNg3b0y]

whoa. Sorry i missed this thread. First off: stable ph. If you don't have a stable ph you won't have happy(read living) fish. Being as that you're in a cycle, try to keep it a scooch below 7. If your ph beings to fall towards 6, add 1/4 *teaspoon* of baking soda per 5 gal of water gradually across 3 or 4 hours. It's really quite potent and you don't need alot. Easy does it. It sounds like you might have water with a low KH, and that's why your ph fell--happened to me and some others on the board just recently as well. Whenever i do a water change i must add baking soda or my ph drops like a rock

Next, ammonia: Using ammo lock and prime(which also takes care of ammonia) can cause false high ammonia readings. Stop using ammo lock(if your ph is below 7 you don't need it). Test your water before you change it, and make sure it's been over 24 hours since the last change-- the prime bottle i have says it can give false ammonia readings on any test kit for up to 24 hours, and i've confirmed this. Your ammonia is probably not as high as you think it is. Stay light on your feedings and don't do massive water changes until you get the hang of adding baking soda(i've gotton to the point where I draw out 5 gal from my 30 and add the 1/4 tsp to the new water with my prime, and my tank stays solid right near 7) i'd assume every tank is different so start with a 1/4 tsp gradually and go from there. You must get your alkalinity stable before you worry about anything else. Do you use carbon? Carbon can over time leech stuff into the water that i have read can soften it and therefore drop your ph. Work on one thing at a time in increments and your tank will naturally fall back in line. keep us posted

--chris

I added baking soda but I think I added too much (1 tablespoon) and it made the tank really cloudy. I also find it odd that my ammonia test kit gives me a blue-ish color and while observing the fishes inside they seem pretty sharp. I currently added carbon in my filter media so I hope it works. My pH, as we speak, is 6.8 so I'll assume I should skip adding ammo lock. I will keep everybody posted for updates

Thanks

[terrapin24h]

yeah, you added waaaay too much, and prob shot your ph into the 8-9 range. I'd say where you are now is perfect. You have 6.8 ph so your ammonia is not toxic to the fish(that's why they seem ok) also remember that your test kit measures total ammonia, even if it's in ammonium form. Keep your ph below 7 and you'll be ok, but if it starts to slip when you change water, help it with small amounts of baking soda. To keep things more controllable, change a little water more often instead of alot. After a week or so, get ready for a nitrite spike, that is when your water changes will be important. good luck

--chris

[guy121]

So if that is how much prime you're adding then you're fine with that. Since your tank is already cycled, your best bet is just to test the water at a couple different fish stores.

Your PH of 6 is a bit on the low side, but instead of using baking soda everyday, I'd try to get a rock or shell to raise the PH. Make sure the rock or shell is aquarium safe. Fish love stable water parameters. So by adding baking soda every day the PH goes up, then down, then up, then down. Often won't be a problem, but it can be. Unless you're doing saltwater or plants you really shouldn't have to do a lot of work to keep a freshwater tank. Before I added plants to my tank all I did was a water change every week (10 mins) and feed the fish. Thats it.