Cycling

[Tigerbarb]

I am hoping to get my fish this Friday, so I have been really stressed out lately about getting the tank cycled soon enough. I have shoveled some live sand onto the rocks, I ghost-feed the tank daily, and all the equipment is running.
I tested for ammonia earlier today, and the test result was 0ppm. Is this a good sign, or do I need a better ammonia source? The food I am ghost-feeding with contains mainly just fish meal, so that should help.
What should the Nitrate, Nitrite, and ammonia be when the tank has finished cycling?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Your ammonia and nitrite wshoudl obviously be 0, but you nitrate should also be around 5ppm. THe biggest problem you have with the method you have been using is the load of phosphates you have introduced into that tank. "Phanotom" feeding is a really bad way to cycle a marine tank due to the high phophates it produces.

[Tigerbarb]

Your ammonia and nitrite wshoudl obviously be 0, but you nitrate should also be around 5ppm. THe biggest problem you have with the method you have been using is the load of phosphates you have introduced into that tank. "Phanotom" feeding is a really bad way to cycle a marine tank due to the high phophates it produces.
I am another victim of bad advice. dam. Someone named Keebler(yes, the cookie) on this saltwater forum told me to do it, and you know someone named Keebler is not the person to ask, lol. So, do I have to waste more salt mix and to a water change now? If so, I wish I could somehow make that author of bad advice pay for the salt :18:lol, jk.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

No, but running some Phosban wouldn't hurt that's for sure. You'll get algae soon enough and that will let you know. I'd recommend getting your water tested to see just how high the phosphate level is.

[Tigerbarb]

No, but running some Phosban wouldn't hurt that's for sure. You'll get algae soon enough and that will let you know. I'd recommend getting your water tested to see just how high the phosphate level is. I found some phosban online, and it seems kind of pricey. Are there any alternatives, what-so-ever?

[cocoa_pleco]

like GB said, with the feeding way phosphates are a issue, especially since excess food and nutrients create excess cyano

[Tigerbarb]

like GB said, with the feeding way phosphates are a issue, especially since excess food and nutrients create excess cyano
Okay, now I'm scared, lol.

[Tigerbarb]

I tested the water paremeters, and I can't tell wether nitrate is 10 or 5.0 ppm, but sadly enough, it looks just the slightest bit more like 10 ppm than 5.0 ppm. What do I do if the nitrate is 10 ppm? Will the live sand eventually eat away at the nitrates?

EDIT: I tested again, and now the readings show 20ppm. This is an API test kit, by the way.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I'd test that again. When I get a test of 20ppm with the API test kit I always test a second time and pay very close attention to the detail and make sure I do it exactly by the book. I have found that 20ppm is the default result with the API test kit if the test is not done properly.

Your live sand is not going to contain any de-nitrifying bacteria unless it is 3" deep or more, the denitrification comes from the deeper parts of the live rock. The inner parts of the live rock are anaerobic areas where de-nitrification takes place. A shallow bed of live sand simply provides nitrification.

[Tigerbarb]

If I run activated carbon in the HOB filter, will that produce nitrate or just reduce it? I was thinking of getting some live rock, anyway, so that might help.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

It will do neither. Activated carbon does not remove nitrate from the water. Just add more live rock and that will take care of things.

[Tigerbarb]

LMAO, I thought API's test tubes were water proof!!!! I was testing, after rinsing off the tube in cold water, and I noticed that most of the lign was gone!!!! Lol, I'm sticking to Red sea. Who knows what other faults I might run into.

[Tigerbarb]

Well, Ammonia is 0.5 and Nitrite is 5.0. I am probably going to get a yellow-tail damsel or two to help cycle the tank faster.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

That won't cycle your tank any faster. You can't speed it up simply by adding fish. You are going to have to be patient with this. Nothing good happens fast in a marine tank.

[cocoa_pleco]

yep, fish wont help. take it slow. reefs are like race cars, the faster they go the harder they crash

[Tigerbarb]

Really wierd. So many people say that cycling a tank with damsels speeds up the process. It seems to be a fact, that, by the nitrogen cycle, adding damselfish to a cycling marine aquarium adds ammonia which gets the cycle going/bacteria growing. I really don't see how that is not true, as I have studied the nitrogen cycle many times, and fish waste should work over twice as fast as adding a piece of shrimp to the tank: Fish literally just give off ammonia, while shrimp just decays and shrimp is all-of-a-sudden a better source of ammonia than an animal that produces direct ammonia. A sure sign of the apocolypse, in my opinion.

[unleashed]

yes, but a decaying shrimp also gives off ammonia constantly. Adding a fish will not make anything happen faster. All that is different with using a fish to cycle is that it produces waste, which in turn decays creating ammonia

Also, if you were a fish, wold you like to be thrown into a tank and have to deal with constantly changing parameters? It is not good for the fish and quite frankly, is cruel in my opinion...

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The speed at which the bacteria reproduces cannot be sped up simply by adding more ammonia to the water, all the additional ammonia does is produce additional bacteria.

[Tigerbarb]

Well, I took a huge risk today. I went to buy some LR from my lfs, and I discussed my tank with the guy there. He said that the live rock would die if I didn't have any fish in the tank, so damselfish came to mind at first. He said that I could get a clownfish to go with the rock, and I was thinking about ocellaris clowns, until I saw this really nice looking Tomato clown I liked, for $25. When I got home, I began to acclimate the clown to the water after adding the piece of LR, and he seems to be very happy/active in his new home. He even accepted flake food!!!!!
I am not going to call this clown a success yet, but this goes to show that there is no one-answer on when you can add fish to a tank, or how to cycle a tank.
I was afraid that I'd face a hurricane by even thinking about posting this, and I know what you are all going to say, but the clown shows no sign what-so-ever of stress, and she(I think it's female) seems to really enjoy the aquascape. I also know that this all sounds very un-realistic.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Well, I took a huge risk today. I went to buy some LR from my lfs, and I discussed my tank with the guy there. He said that the live rock would die if I didn't have any fish in the tank, so damselfish came to mind at first. He said that I could get a:c4: clownfish to go with the rock, and I was thinking about ocellaris clowns, until I saw this really nice looking Tomato clown I liked, for $25. When I got home, I began to acclimate the clown to the water after adding the piece of LR, and he seems to be very happy/active in his new home. He even accepted flake food!!!!!
I am not going to call this clown a success yet, but this goes to show that there is no one-answer on when you can add fish to a tank, or how to cycle a tank.
I was afraid that I'd face a hurricane by even thinking about posting this, and I know what you are all going to say, but the clown shows no sign what-so-ever of stress, and she(I think it's female) seems to really enjoy the aquascape. I also know that this all sounds very un-realistic.

Well two things jump out to me right away. First of all, this clown isn't even close to a success, it's a disaster from the start. Tomato clowns are the largest of the Amphiprion genus topping out at 5.5-6" and needing nothing less than a 55gal tank. Second thing is that that guy at the fish store is full of crap. Live Rock will not die off in that short of time with no fish in it. I know of a good many people who start their marine tanks with no fish for the first 6 months to make the algae outbreaks more moderate. The bacteria will be fed by the die off that you get. Live Rock would take a long long time to die off with no fish in there. If you are adding a dead shrimp to feed the cycle or if you are adding pure ammonia directly there is no way that rock is going to die. Unfortunately that guy did his job a little too well, he made a sale he should never have made.

[Tigerbarb]

..............and I know someone who said that marine fish only lived a few months, that you need a really powerful filter, you need a uv sterilizer, ozonater, skimmer, deep sand bed, etc., or it's not worth trying at all............

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Somethings may work but are still a bad idea. Your clown may survive the poor water conditions it is being subjected to, but that it will likely have an effect on its lifespan in the long run. That fish should easily live 10-20 years in your tank, unfortunately it may only live 4-5 now. Just because a fish can survive the cycle does not mean there are no long term effects. That fish likely looks fine now because it has only been there for a few hours. Give it a week and see how it looks. It may look the same, but it has a good chance of not looking as healthy. Those poor water condiditons can make a clownfish very susceptable to Brooklynella. Brooklynella is a parasite that can absolutely devistate a clownfish and like Ich, it is opportunistic, it will strike when the fish is stressed and its immunity is at its lowest. Poor water conditions can lead to an outbreak of Brooklynella, and once you get it, it is extremely difficult to get rid of.

[Tigerbarb]

Somethings may work but are still a bad idea. Your clown may survive the poor water conditions it is being subjected to, but that it will likely have an effect on its lifespan in the long run. That fish should easily live 10-20 years in your tank, unfortunately it may only live 4-5 now. Just because a fish can survive the cycle does not mean there are no long term effects. That fish likely looks fine now because it has only been there for a few hours. Give it a week and see how it looks. It may look the same, but it has a good chance of not looking as healthy. Those poor water condiditons can make a clownfish very susceptable to Brooklynella. Brooklynella is a parasite that can absolutely devistate a clownfish and like Ich, it is opportunistic, it will strike when the fish is stressed and its immunity is at its lowest. Poor water conditions can lead to an outbreak of Brooklynella, and once you get it, it is extremely difficult to get rid of.
Okay, you had me there. Now I don't really know what to do. I should probably ask my lfs to hold the clown for me. Would it do any good to go back to my lfs for a few more pounds of live rock? There is this one brand of live sand that claims to cycle a tank instantly,(it probably doesn't, but...) so live rock will probably improve those water conditions alot and even cycle the tank in days. I know it will take a while for the bacteria to colonize, but there is a good chance that live rock will save the fish.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The best thing would be if your LFS could hold that clown for you. Your tank should be ready in another couple of weeks by the sounds of it. Remind me again what size tank it is?

[Tigerbarb]

This is a 20g tank. Sad to say, but I will probably have to give up the clown some time. I don't think I could stand to give him to my lfs and never see it or hear of it again, so I was looking to find someone online who could take the clown.

Well, I got every water paremeter besides Nitrate ready, this morning. My Nitrite test kit claims that 0.2/2.0(I forgot, lol) was fine. (Red sea brand test kit)
My lfs will no longer be getting Tonga live rock in, for an obvious reason, so I was thinking of taking advantage of that and getting alot of Tonga rock, as it will not do any harm to the ocean.

Oh, and by the way, my lfs is the best I've ever seen. Their live rock is of great quality, and not one of their live stock is not at great health, so I would think they would only hire experience fresh&marine, active aquariusts.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Depending on where you are I may be able to help you. I do have a 125gal reef. :)

[Tigerbarb]

Well, I live in Oregon, so your a long way away.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

True. Let me check something, it may be possible to send anyway if you are interested.

[cocoa_pleco]

youre actually not far from me if youre in Oregon, but getting him across the border would be too timely

[Tigerbarb]

I'd need a 100% fool-proof, express mail service, if I send the clown away. It would just be too heart breaking to hear that the person I sent her it never got it, or to hear that someone received a dead fish.

How would I send a fish, anyway?

Oh, and it's not much, but if you haven't yet noticed, I've been keeping a blog on the setup of my tank. (Link is in my sig)

[cocoa_pleco]

How would I send a fish, anyway?


you can get breather bags that allow 02 in, and C02 out, but the water stays in. best bet is to get a small thick styrofoam box, put foam peanuts in it, put the fish and bag in the middle, and seal the foam box. put in a cold pack or heat pack if necessary

[Tigerbarb]

I got two very nice pieces of Tonga branch rock, and, to my surpise, they only weighed 1 lb together. I didn't really have much use for them in my aquascape, at the time, but I figured I should get some before it's out of stock. My poor tomato clown was stressed out while I was trying to stabalize the rockscape, and he didn't accept any brine shrimp. I do think he ate the piece of seaweed I left in there for him.
I really feel guilty for pushing the fish's limits by having it in a tank that is not yet fully cycled, and I am willing to do whatever I can to prevent any long term health affects. Will the clown be fine if I keep up with 10% water changes every 2-3 days? Also, now that I have 2 lbs of LR, (not rubble, 3 decent sized chunks) and since I started the tank with live sand, do you think the clown can make it until the end of the week if I do atleast two 10% water changes between now and Sunday?
Okay, now I feel that the guy at my lfs didn't know what he was talking about: He said it'd be 30 days until the cycle is complete, if I have live rock, and that I needed a fish to keep the LR alive, so he directed me to a Tomato clown - Lol, he said that the tank needed to cycle for a month, but he directed me towards a permanent 'show fish' to cycle it.
While at my lfs, I noticed a nice looking coral banded shrimp for a low price. Can a coral banded shrimp live in a 20g? Also, what do I feed it?

[Tigerbarb]

EDIT: the aquarium shop guy did give me the better choice of damselfish, but really, he shoudn't have directed me towards the option of a tomato clown for cycling.

[cocoa_pleco]

coral bandeds are fine in a 20g, and they feed on loose debris and pick the rock for food

[Tigerbarb]

The clown won't stop playing with it's reflection, stopping sometimes to kick up sand. Is this normal? Even when I was adding the new rocks to the tank, and alot of the water was clouding, I don't even think the poor thing noticed. I can't even get it to accept food because of this.

[cocoa_pleco]

clowns sometimes kick up stuff for fun, but if hes twitching or spazzing out i would worry

[Tigerbarb]

Does anyone else here have a Tomato clown? If so, what do you feed it? My clown has only swam by and nipped at seaweed/live rock a few times between now and the beginning of yesterday, and will only dart towards a flake/shrimp to pass it, or eat it and spit it out.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

There's a profile in the Marine Section on them. Amphiprion frenatus is the scientific name.

[Tigerbarb]

I will probably look for an omnivore diet of mixed flakes. I am providing meaty foods and seaweed, and I have been leaving small strips of seaweed sticking out from under the live rock(also a good place to graze) hoping that the clown will take advantage of that as a grazing opportunity.(as the article said)

Also, will the coralline algae that came on my rocks die back if I don't upgrade to 10,000+ k lighting? I am trying to decide between a coral banded shrimp or a 15 watt 18,000k plant bulb that is available at a very low price.

[unleashed]

have a look here:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Tigerbarb]

Goldbarb's post is coming true. The poor clown is no longer accepting food, and is hiding most of the time. Do you think I should just let the cycle proceed, or do a large, 25-50% water change? Grr, I'd replace the water I siphoned out now, but the hydrometer remained un-rinsed for nearly 24 hrs, and has to soak in vinegar overnight.

[Tigerbarb]

Oh, and sorry if it seems like every one of my posts here is a repeat of my last one, lol.

[spudbuds]

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels?

I think you should be prepared to do multiple water changes per day if you insist on keeping that fish in there.

- Bill

[Tigerbarb]

I went and got some mixed marine flakes, which the clown can not get enough of. Still hiding though.
Water paremeters are...
PH 8.2
Alkalinity: 1.7-2.8
(atleast the ph and alk. are fine)
Ammonia: 1.0 (bad, I know)
Nitrate: between 10 and 20 ppm, looking more like 20. Atleast I think I have a captive-bred specimin.
Nitrite: 0.1 (not perfect, but is it bad?)

[Halelorf]

glad the clown is eating. When I first got mine it would only eat frozen mysis shrimp which it was fed at the LFS. Then after a few weeks I got it onto NLS marine pellets and it really loves those. I would do some more water changes to get rid of the ammonia and nitrite.

[Tigerbarb]

Lol, it's hard to believe that the clown prefers marine flakes over frozen brine shrimp. It's funny watching the little head pop out from behind a rock, and catch a sinking flake.

I tested for ph again, and it's now 8.6 .... I don't know what happened, lol.

[cocoa_pleco]

Lol, it's hard to believe that the clown prefers marine flakes over frozen brine shrimp. It's funny watching the little head pop out from behind a rock, and catch a sinking flake.

I tested for ph again, and it's now 8.6 .... I don't know what happened, lol.

did you do your last PH check late last night? it changes from during the day to night, which is why some people run chaeto on a opposite cycle

[Tigerbarb]

Yes, I tested the ph at night, and the 8.2 reading was from when I tested in the day.