disappearing ammonia

[labnjab]

We are in the process of cycling our 55 gallon with 8 small feeder comets. At noon time i measured the ammonia and it was at .50 ppm. I measured twice just to make sure because the tank has only had fish in it since Tuesday. I measured again at 7 and it was back down to 0. Nitrite is also 0. I was wondering what would make the ammonia go away so fast without any nitrite?

[Evil Slimy]

Do you have any live plants in the tank? Although... Would your test kit measure nitrite levels that were that low? Anyone know how much nitrite 1ppm of ammonia is converted into?

[W_Oz]

I'd assume 1ppm of NH3 -> 1ppm NO2- since the number of nitrogen atoms is the same and you can't get more random nitrogen without going through ammonia first if I understand the N2 cycle. If the NH3/NH4+ and NO2- readings are all < 0.XX (detection limit) then it would be safe to assume that your tank has cycled up and is ready to be gently nudged into the world or housing your goldies. Did you have anything from a previous tank in there to help things along? What were your NO2- levels before noon? Plants in the tank? How frequently have you been monitoring your water?

[labnjab]

I just put some substrate into each filter in pantyhose from my established 30 a few minuets ago and one of the filter cartridges is a dirty one out of the 30 and has been in the since the night i added the feeders (it has 2 Aqua-Tech 30-60 power filters).
Before noon they were 0 and my test kit (an api master kit) shoes as low as .25. I've been monitoring every day since i added the feeders. I put 4 in at first and then Lady Hobbs said it should be ok to add a few more.
I'm using the feeders so i don't stress my fancy's any more then i have to. I don't have any plants or substrate.

[W_Oz]

Does your master test kit allow you to test for Nitrate? (NO3-) If it does, give that a whirl. Since you seeded your filters with materials from your old tank its quite possible that you've completed your cycle and are ready to rock'n roll.

Add your fancies slowly so you don't overwhelm your bacteria with the new bioload and have fun!

[labnjab]

I'll test that now and I'll post back with the results

[labnjab]

Its hard to tell, the chart has yellow for 0 and light orange for 5ppm, and it looks like its in between both of those, so there is some NO3-. Wow, i expected it to take longer than that to cycle. I'm holding back a few days though on adding the fancy's, I have a canister filter that I'm waiting on an o-ring that i ordered and i want to get that up and running before i add them.

[Lady Hobbs]

You said you cycled with some used media and apparently you have enough ammonia and nitrite eating bacteria already established. It could also be that those 4 feeders didn't give off any ammonia at all yet. Four feeders in 55 gallon might not have hardly had time to register in only 2 days.

I think you sound ready for your fish, tho. Probably was the first day but better safe than sorry is good.

[labnjab]

I measured it again at 6am this morning, Ammonia .5, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0
At 9 am Ammonia .25, nitrite .0, Nitrate between 0 and 5
At noon Ammonia .25, nitrite .0, Nitrate 5

I'm wondering if the 8 feeders are still not enough bioload to support enough bacteria because nitrite newer went up and nitrate. I'm going to remove 4 of the feeders and add my 2 smallest fancy's like suggested, then leave them in until the values get better.

[terrapin24h]

you could have a cycle, or you could not. Consider that 8 feeder fish may not produce enough amm to raise its level in such a large tank. Plus, if you tank is a gold tank, it's got to be cold, which means a slower cycle. I'm just a rookie, but it sounds to me like you have too much water(combined with the bacteria you transplanted) and not enough load. I have the same kit you do and know what you are talking about with the trate reading, annoying aint it :) I think moving two of your little fancys over will definitely prove one way or the other and help kick what cycle you have into high gear, just be ready to do water changes and watch the levels like a hawk. don't forget pics when you get it done!

--chris

[labnjab]

Should i remove half the feeder before adding the fancy's. As far as i can see all of the feeders are healthy with no signs of disease. I do monitor it pretty closely. While its starting out, how much ammonia should i watch out for before doing a change.

I'll get some pics up as soon as its ready. Its pretty baron but i wanted to make it as goldfish friendly as possible, no substrate and a few ornaments, and i may add some silk plants. I'm leaving as much room as i can so they can grow

[Lady Hobbs]

I agree with above poster. You have a lot of water and only had 4 feeders which is why I suggested increasing them. They don't put out tons of ammonia each day but only a small amount from gills, their feed and their waste. It's not unusual to have to wait 2 weeks to see the ammonia finally spike and you had 4 feeders for only 2 days and 8 feeders for 1 day.

Be more patient, little sheba, and let that cycle start to work. You need not do so much testing, either. Test the ammonia every couple of days and when it starts to drop, start then to test for ammonia and nitrites. When ammonia disappears, test for nitrites and nitrates.

No point in using up all your tester so quickly.

[labnjab]

I'm gonna be more patient, I now realize I'm trying to rush things. I'm gonna keep the 8 feeders in there a while. Maybe even until i get my canister cycled. That way maybe the feeders will be big enough to not be sold as feeders once i return them to the fish store, they are pretty interesting to watch.

In the mean time I'm gonna get some silk plants and a few other decorations for the tank that are goldfish safe. Thank you to everyone that helped and i will post pictures of the tank, both with the feeders and with the fancy's once they get moved in.

[labnjab]

I went to the local fish store today and found a good deal on a pen-plax cascade 1000 canister filter rated for a 100 gallon tank for $100. It had a 3 year warranty and all parts and filter medium are available at the fish store so i decided to get it that way when i get the fluval fixed i can run double filtration on both the 30 and 55.

[Alfcea]

I'd assume 1ppm of NH3 -> 1ppm NO2- since the number of nitrogen atoms is the same and you can't get more random nitrogen without going through ammonia first if I understand the N2 cycle.

Well, actually that would be the case if ammonia and nitrite had the same weight, but actually nitrite is about three times as heavy as ammonia is, so, if there were no otre factors involved, 1 ppm of ammonia, would generate 3 ppm of nitrite... but of course, since ammonia is used by the plants as a nutrient and a tiny bit of it evaporates off the water, this is not very accurate...

[Drip Loop]

I'd assume 1ppm of NH3 -> 1ppm NO2- since the number of nitrogen atoms is the same and you can't get more random nitrogen without going through ammonia first if I understand the N2 cycle. If the NH3/NH4+ and NO2- readings are all < 0.XX (detection limit) then it would be safe to assume that your tank has cycled up and is ready to be gently nudged into the world or housing your goldies. Did you have anything from a previous tank in there to help things along? What were your NO2- levels before noon? Plants in the tank? How frequently have you been monitoring your water?


While very informative, I think I may have had a seizure trying to read it. Very technical stuff there.

[W_Oz]

Well, actually that would be the case if ammonia and nitrite had the same weight, but actually nitrite is about three times as heavy as ammonia is, so, if there were no otre factors involved, 1 ppm of ammonia, would generate 3 ppm of nitrite... but of course, since ammonia is used by the plants as a nutrient and a tiny bit of it evaporates off the water, this is not very accurate...

Umm... 'Fraid not. Because, you can't make Nitrogen from nothing so there has to be a Nitrogen source. Formula weight has nothing to do with how many ppm of NH3/NH4+ can be changed to ppm of NO2-.

And I'll tell ya why.

Ammonia has 1 nitrogen atom, 3 hydrogen atoms, and a lone pair of electrons.

Nitrite has 1 nitrogen atom, 2 oxygen atoms, and an unpaired electron.

The Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms in these molecules are superfluous for the purpose of this explanation.

So, Ammonia has one nitrogen atom and Nitrite has one nitrogen atom.

Nitrogen is the limiting reagent in this reaction since Oxygen and Hydrogen are quite readily available.

So....
1 N --> 1 N

NH3 --> NO2-

Not

1 N -|-> 3 N

NH3 -|-> 3 NO2

:c12:

Unless of course your Nitrite bacteria can metabolize something besides ammonia to generate NO2-.

Edit: I suppose I should say that I'm a chemist at a Water Quality lab for my day job and testing for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, as well as more exotic things (like pesticides and surfactants) are things we deal with every day. It's a lot of fun sending a sample of your aquarium water through an Ion Chromatograph to check how things are shaping up. :)

[cathy_n]

So....
1 N --> 1 N

NH3 --> NO2-

Not

1 N -|-> 3 N

NH3 -|-> 3 NO2

:c12:

Unless of course your Nitrite bacteria can metabolize something besides ammonia to generate NO2-.

Edit: I suppose I should say that I'm a chemist at a Water Quality lab for my day job and testing for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, as well as more exotic things (like pesticides and surfactants) are things we deal with every day. It's a lot of fun sending a sample of your aquarium water through an Ion Chromatograph to check how things are shaping up. :)

:19: Nice explanation, and I had a serious giggle about the ion chromatograph. It seems aquariums have their nerds, too!

[W_Oz]

I went to the local fish store today and found a good deal on a pen-plax cascade 1000 canister filter rated for a 100 gallon tank for $100. It had a 3 year warranty and all parts and filter medium are available at the fish store so i decided to get it that way when i get the fluval fixed i can run double filtration on both the 30 and 55.

I can say I'm happy with my Plen-Plax cascade 1500 on my 55 gal, it seems like a good filter and it's pretty easy to maintain.

[Alfcea]

Actually, W_Oz, I am a chemist too. Right now I am doing research in organic chemistry...

Anyways, I think nobody cares about our discussion, so I've sent you a PM describing my reasoning. I'll be happy to hear your ideas!

It's great to find a fellow chemist who is a fish keeper too, by the way. I'm sure there are plenty of us out there, though, eh? Do you too use your fish tank as a small science project on the side?

[Alfcea]

I will just say that your reasoning would be right if we were talking about ppms of nitrogen in ammonia and ppms of nitrogen in nitrite. In that case, you are completely right, but the fact is that we talk about ppms of ammonia and nitrite per se.

[labnjab]

I can say I'm happy with my Plen-Plax cascade 1500 on my 55 gal, it seems like a good filter and it's pretty easy to maintain.


I'm happy with the cascade so far, i had it up and running in 10 minuets and its extremely quiet. I saw later i could of got it way cheaper online, but I'd rather have it the day i payed for it then wait a week or so to get it...what are you using for media in your?

[W_Oz]

I will just say that your reasoning would be right if we were talking about ppms of nitrogen in ammonia and ppms of nitrogen in nitrite. In that case, you are completely right, but the fact is that we talk about ppms of ammonia and nitrite per se.


Bah! I bow to the all mighty Piled Higher and Deeper pursuer. So yeah, 1ppm of NH3/NH4+ --> 3ppm NO2-


I curse my educators now, curse them!!!! silly mg/L thingy....:19:

So yeah, ignore that whole explanation thing.... I suffer from "shoot from the hip" syndrome.....

[W_Oz]

It's great to find a fellow chemist who is a fish keeper too, by the way. I'm sure there are plenty of us out there, though, eh? Do you too use your fish tank as a small science project on the side?


I don't actually. Though the lab I work for did to BioAssay studies for a while and had quite the plethora of aquariums (and still do actually they're just empty) that would be filled with Fathead Minnows.

labnjab: I'm using most of the filter media that came with mine though I have a tray full of ceramic rings after the sponge on the bottom and water polishing floss pads on the upper trays.

[labnjab]

I'm using mostly what came with it, with the sponge on the bottom, then floss, then carbon, then more floss on top of the carbon and ceramic rings at the top. I'm gonna see how this works and may change it up later.