GF having problems with PH in 10g nanocube

[guy121]

She uses RO water for her water changes. She has been having to add PH stuff to get her PH to 8.2 every day as in the morning time it is at 7.7. I suggested to her to add half before bed and half in the morning as I'm thinking thats a very large swing in PH.

She has about 7lbs of live rock, so I don't know if more live rock will help with stabalizing her PH? Her dKH is ~10, which is what I've read it should be at. Any particular reason for the big drop every day?

Also her Ammonia is going up, which is really odd as the tank was fully cycled before we added the fish. It was cycled to the point where when we added a full cap of pure ammonia the next day we tested and it was all gone. There is only 2 tomato clowns and a sandsifter(don't know the name exactly) and a hermit crab. Its not too bad, but it does go up to .25ppm, which it should be 0.

She doesn't have a heater currently and the temps generally stay at 76 or so, until she does a water change in which it will drop to ~73-74. I was looking at a visi-therm stealth heater (have one in my FW) and should she get a 125 or 150w if the cost between that and the 100w is the same? I'm thinking if she ever gets a larger tank then she can just transfer the heater over.

I understand through the cycle process everything ends up as nitrates. Only real way to rid yourself of nitrates is through plants correct? So if she only has a ball of moss about two hand full size should she get more plants? She has a few zoanthids in there and they aren't doing so well, but I think that is more to do with the temperature of the water.

I have a couple FW tanks that are doing fine, but my gf's saltwater nanocube is a totally different deal.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Wel first of all, 2 Tomato Clownfish is way way too much for a 10gal tank along with whatever sand sifter it is the bioload is too much for only 7lbs of LR and that is likely creating the high ammonia. You mentioned that she has a ball of moss, I suspect this is Chaeto, correct? If so then that could very well be the source of the pH problem. Photosynthetic organisms like the Chaeto and the Zoanthids respire during dark periods. As a result, CO2 gets into the water and that will cause pH problems. However, with a dKH of 10 your pH should not be moving that much. You may want to check that alkalinity again and then check the accuracy of the test kit. Adding pH adjuster is not a good idea, that pH will gradually increase during the day anyway.

BTW, in a marine tank, the process of de-nitrification should take place as well and remove the nitrates. If you are seeing a buildup of nitrates then it is also a result of having too high of a bioload for the tank. Your GF doesn't have enough live rock to support the bioload she has placed on it. You can't stock marine tanks the same way you stock a freshwater tank. 1inch/gal doesn't even come close to applying to a marine tank and she has way more than that. Even minus the sandsifter the 2 Tomato clowns account for roughly 11-12 inches of adult fish.

[cocoa_pleco]

lol, GB summed it up

[guy121]

Wel first of all, 2 Tomato Clownfish is way way too much for a 10gal tank along with whatever sand sifter it is the bioload is too much for only 7lbs of LR and that is likely creating the high ammonia. You mentioned that she has a ball of moss, I suspect this is Chaeto, correct? If so then that could very well be the source of the pH problem. Photosynthetic organisms like the Chaeto and the Zoanthids respire during dark periods. As a result, CO2 gets into the water and that will cause pH problems. However, with a dKH of 10 your pH should not be moving that much. You may want to check that alkalinity again and then check the accuracy of the test kit. Adding pH adjuster is not a good idea, that pH will gradually increase during the day anyway.

BTW, in a marine tank, the process of de-nitrification should take place as well and remove the nitrates. If you are seeing a buildup of nitrates then it is also a result of having too high of a bioload for the tank. Your GF doesn't have enough live rock to support the bioload she has placed on it. You can't stock marine tanks the same way you stock a freshwater tank. 1inch/gal doesn't even come close to applying to a marine tank and she has way more than that. Even minus the sandsifter the 2 Tomato clowns account for roughly 11-12 inches of adult fish.

Oh wow! Well I never knew that. I haven't been reading anything about saltwater as I was going to let her read about it. Well I know if I told her that she had to get rid of a fish she would probably go overboard and say she's going to give the whole thing away... She's sort of crazy (seriously). So if we were to add more live rock, how much would you suggest to get it somewhat stable in there? The LFS actually suggest for her to get the plant, so I didn't know it could cause a problem with the PH.

Nitrates are actually doing fairly well, of course we've been doing water changes twice a week of one-three gallons depending on conditions. I just checked the KH and it's at 14(green)-15(yellow). I used a different test kit this time. She did add some KH booster stuff this morning because that is what the LFS told her to do.

The plant looks like chaeto, here's a pic.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7339/plantgp2.jpg

The filter unit has thick polyester type stuff, plastic filter foam stuff, bioballs, ceramic biomax type stuff, and purigen (thats in the nylon). Should the polyester stuff be after the plastic filter foam? Or is it fine the way it is?

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9523/filterox1.jpg

Picture of tank for reference

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/4563/wholeai4.jpg

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

This may come as a surprise, but I wouldn't put any filter media except the Purigen in there. I run my 125gal reef with no filter media excet a small bag of Purigen and a small bag of Carbon. The only biological filtration a marine tank needs is the live rock. I would recommend you add at the very least 3 more pounds but ideally you should get it up to 15lbs over all. You also should have a couple of snails and a couple of hermit crabs in there as well.

BTW, that is Chaeto you have, it is actually a macro algae, I wouldn't keep it in the main tank personally. The biggest danger is that it is capable of sexual and asexual reproduction. Asexual reproduciton is not a problem, but if it goes sexual then you have a mess on your hands. I'd actually not keep it in a tank as small as yours.

[cocoa_pleco]

yep, you dont really need any filtration, like GB said the rock does all the work. Only thing close to a filter on my 55g is the skimmer, thats it

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The biggest recommendation I would make is for you to not remove any of the media until you add the new rock and have it in there for a couple of weeks. Removing that media may be too much for the system, your current rock amount probably wouldn't be able to handle the bioload on its own.

[guy121]

Ok, so I just got off the phone with my gf and she's at the LFS getting 9 more lbs of live rock. After a month of having the new live rock in there, is there a problem with leaving the filters in there? If we do take the filters out, should we also take out the bioballs and ceramic rings?

I'm not sure on the problems that chaeto will have, so I'll do some reading up on it. Thanks for the help again guys!

Hopefully we can get her tank all setup so she doesn't get so frustrated and can just be happy with her fish.

[kaybee]

...BTW, that is Chaeto you have, it is actually a macro algae, I wouldn't keep it in the main tank personally. The biggest danger is that it is capable of sexual and asexual reproduction. Asexual reproduciton is not a problem, but if it goes sexual then you have a mess on your hands. I'd actually not keep it in a tank as small as yours.

It's been my understanding that chaeto isn't prone to going sexual, a characteristic which makes it preferable over caulerpa (which does go sexual).


....I'm not sure on the problems that chaeto will have...

One foreseeable problem with keeping chaeto in the display tank is how quickly it grows. A portion of chaeto the size of a golf ball can attain a volume comparable with that of a basket ball quite rapidly (which might not bode so well in a 10gal). It is easy to remove excessive growth, though.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Kaybee, my understandiong of Macro Algae is that all species of Macro Algae are capable of going sexual, some are just more likely than others. I could be wrong about that though.

[spudbuds]

My understanding is that chaeto is far less likely of going sexual them most macro algaes (like caulerpa). That's one of the reasons for it's popularity. You could leave it in the display, but you'd have to keep it trimmed regularly and it has the potential to get into pumps and other things making a mess. You could put it in one of the chambers when you remove the filter media as long as light can get back there. If you can light it separately, then it might help your pH swing to run the light for the chaeto on a reverse cycle of your main lights. Might not be easily accomplished in that tank (which I assume is an all-in-one system from the pics).

You'll want to find the source of that ammonia pretty quick as well or the clowns won't be around long. Something must be decaying causing the ammonia. How long has the tank been setup? Is there any chance of overfeeding?

One other thing to consider for the pH is the CO2 level. To test this, you can take some tank water outside and run an air pump with an air stone in the water for an hour or so. Then retest the pH. If it gets higher, then the CO2 level in the house is causing the lower pH. I have the same problem. You can open a window near the tank to help or you can run an air pump all the time pulling air in from outside.

How old is the tank and how are you measuring the pH? It's not uncommon for new tanks to have a low pH usually due to the left over acids from the decaying material that caused the cycle.

- Bill

[guy121]

My understanding is that chaeto is far less likely of going sexual them most macro algaes (like caulerpa). That's one of the reasons for it's popularity. You could leave it in the display, but you'd have to keep it trimmed regularly and it has the potential to get into pumps and other things making a mess. You could put it in one of the chambers when you remove the filter media as long as light can get back there. If you can light it separately, then it might help your pH swing to run the light for the chaeto on a reverse cycle of your main lights. Might not be easily accomplished in that tank (which I assume is an all-in-one system from the pics).

You'll want to find the source of that ammonia pretty quick as well or the clowns won't be around long. Something must be decaying causing the ammonia. How long has the tank been setup? Is there any chance of overfeeding?

One other thing to consider for the pH is the CO2 level. To test this, you can take some tank water outside and run an air pump with an air stone in the water for an hour or so. Then retest the pH. If it gets higher, then the CO2 level in the house is causing the lower pH. I have the same problem. You can open a window near the tank to help or you can run an air pump all the time pulling air in from outside.

How old is the tank and how are you measuring the pH? It's not uncommon for new tanks to have a low pH usually due to the left over acids from the decaying material that caused the cycle.

- Bill

I don't think we'll be able to setup a lighting system in the back, but I've been reading some people actually place live rock or live sand in the back in place of the filters and that sounds like a pretty interesting idea. We just got another 6.5lbs of rock so it is at 13.5lbs now, which is a lot better than 7.

The tank was setup for about 7 weeks and has been cycled for atleast 4 of those weeks. I think overfeeding might be occuring considering the food source we are using is pretty chopped up. I generally like to feed my fish bloodworms and brineshrimp as its a lot easier to control how much goes in and getting the fish to eat. Her stuff is almost liquid with a some chunks.

I'll have to try out that CO2 test. I'll definitely keep it in mind if it doesn't stable out in the next few days. I guess I might as well buy an extra air pump (since I'm getting supplies right now) just in case.

With the new rock in I think ammonia will go up just a little from maybe the decaying die off, but hopefully this will bring everything down and maybe get her PH a little more stable.

[coachfraley]

If you keep chaeto in the back of the tank, and set up a light so that it comes on when the display is dark, it will help to even out your PH. Setting up a "rear fuge" is the most common modification done to the all-in-one nano tanks.

I had a 12g for nearly a year (before upgrading), and I was able to keep it at zero nitrates with the help of a rear fuge.

[spudbuds]

I don't think we'll be able to setup a lighting system in the back, but I've been reading some people actually place live rock or live sand in the back in place of the filters and that sounds like a pretty interesting idea. We just got another 6.5lbs of rock so it is at 13.5lbs now, which is a lot better than 7.
Nothing a dremel coulnd't fix. :sbiggrin:
The rock and/or sand would be fine to put in there, just shoot it off every once in a while so the detritus doesn't build up.


The tank was setup for about 7 weeks and has been cycled for atleast 4 of those weeks. I think overfeeding might be occuring considering the food source we are using is pretty chopped up. I generally like to feed my fish bloodworms and brineshrimp as its a lot easier to control how much goes in and getting the fish to eat. Her stuff is almost liquid with a some chunks.
Is it frozen food that is being defrosted? If so, one way to limit nutrients being put into the system is to defrost the food in some RO/DI water and then filter it through a brine shrimp net. Then you can just put the chunks in the tank. I don't think the "runny stuff" is causing your ammonia problem, but I suppose it could. If there is a bunch of food going uneaten, that could cause the problem.


With the new rock in I think ammonia will go up just a little from maybe the decaying die off, but hopefully this will bring everything down and maybe get her PH a little more stable.
If the new rock has been out of the water at all, cure it in a bucket with a powerhead and a heater before putting it in the tank. Any amount of ammonia is very bad for the clowns. If you do put it in the tank and you start seeing the ammonia spike, be ready to do a lot of water changes.

- Bill

[guy121]

So I did the CO2 test last night and this morning we tested the cup water at around 8-8.1 and the tank water is about 7.8. So now what I'm wondering is the CO2 from the chaeto? Should we just remove the chaeto altogether and throw in an air pump? Or should we leave the chaeto to absorb nitrates/ammonia and just toss an air pump in there?

Also I was wondering if we could stick the airpump line into the back so we didn't have to see it up front?

The rear fuge idea sounds great, but I'm a bit lazy lol. Maybe I'll do it once we remove the rear filters.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I would avoid the air pump. You want to avoid air bubbles in the tank. I really don't think you want to remove the Chaeto simply because of the high bioload you have in the tank. I'd leave it there but cut back on the amount in there. You can easily cut it down, throw some away and let it grow out again.

[guy121]

So an air pump in the back would not be beneficial or recommended?

We'll cut the ball in half.

[spudbuds]

Where was the cup of water being aerated? In the house or outside? If it was in the house, then it tells me the concentration of CO2 in your house is fine, your surface agitation needs to be higher to promote the gas exchange. If the cup was outside, then the concentration of CO2 in your house is higher then normal and adding the air pump to the tank won't fix the problem. I have the later problem. Apparently my house is sealed up pretty tight. Anytime I have additional people in my house, the pH of my tank drops like a rock. It was down to 7.6 the other night because I forgot to open a window when people were over. I'm considering running an airline from outside to feed my skimmer.

The chaeto probably isn't causing your problem. It may make the pH swing at night a little worse because it's one more photosynthetic thing "exhaling". But if it wasn't in there, more nuissance algae would likely grow in it's place.

- Bill