Plants - live or plastic?

[jimmyt]

I am about to start a new freshwater aquarium and its been about 20 years since I have had a tank. Now that my kids are old enough to appreciate one, they want one! "Back in the day" I had a small 10 gallon set up - but since I am older and wiser (and have the $$ to support the hobby) I am looking for something larger - probably around 30 gallons or so - maybe 40, but 55 is just to large for the space we have picked out. Anyway - from what I have read things have not changed that much - I will probably have an undergravel filter, power filter, heater, various bubble makers and the standard fare with the florescent light. We are looking at community fish (angles, barbs, tetras, and my favorite - clown loach) My question now surrounds plants - real or fake? Back then I used plastic plants - but it looks like a lot are using real plants. Any advantage? Will they grow in the standard gravel or do I need something else?

any advice would be appreciated!

thanks

jim

[angelcakes]

hello and welcomethumbs2:
IMO plastic, as ive a naughty angelfish that likes real plants and eats them lol and a few of my clown loaches also like eating them

[sbracken]

HI!!!

I use fake since my fish like to devour live plants. My smaller tanks have the typical plastic plants from my LFS.....my 75 gal now has "silk" plants from my local craft store!!! Much cheaper and I think they look much more like the real thing.

[Incredulous_Ed]

Well, if you are just starting out, live p[lants may not be practical. They can be expensive and hard to keep. They can grow in regular gravel and some will do okay under stock lights. What I suggest you do is just set up the tank and get an easy plant, like anacharis, just to see if it grows.

Also, dont use an under gravel filter. Canister or HOB filters are much better. PLus UGFs are not good for plant growth.

[terrapin24h]

I would say a synthetic plant of some sort. My 30g has a mix of plastic and silk. I like the silk better as they move in the flow of water, and won't abraid sensitive skin and fins. Also, clown loaches get big, i think most here would say 55g min with other fish. welcome and good luck!

--chris

ps:one thing that has changed alot is filters. Go HOB with biomedia(wheel, bag, etc) or go canister with biomedia. Don't go UG

[Fishguy2727]

Definitely no UGFs, more problems than any good. A LOT of things have changed in the past ten years, not to mention twenty.

There is an article on sand in my blog you may want to read through.

Even though they are your favorite, that tank is not large enough for clown loaches. Since they can get to be about a foot long and need to school, you are looking at more like a 150-180 minimum to keep them permanently.

I think you should try plants and see how they do in your tank. I do nothing special for mine, and all my tanks are planted. I add a couple supplements and have normal lighting (mainly fluorescent with 50/50 bulbs (6500K and actinic in the same bulb)). You can check out my Photobucket page for pics of my tanks to see what you think.

[ladyoutlaw50]

I have plastic and do enjoy them -- they look much better then they did years ago!! I also have used the silk ones from the craft section of the store!! I have african cichlids and they would eat live plants -- they try to chew on my fake ones now!!

[mac]

Hi jimmut,

I am about to start a new freshwater aquarium and its been about 20 years since I have had a tank. Now that my kids are old enough to appreciate one, they want one! "Back in the day" I had a small 10 gallon set up - but since I am older and wiser (and have the $$ to support the hobby) I am looking for something larger - probably around 30 gallons or so - maybe 40, but 55 is just to large for the space we have picked out. Anyway - from what I have read things have not changed that much - I will probably have an undergravel filter, power filter, heater, various bubble makers and the standard fare with the florescent light. We are looking at community fish (angles, barbs, tetras, and my favorite - clown loach) My question now surrounds plants - real or fake? Back then I used plastic plants - but it looks like a lot are using real plants. Any advantage? Will they grow in the standard gravel or do I need something else?

any advice would be appreciated!

thanks

jim

I have tryied plastick plants before. I had two types of plant imitations in my tank for around 5 minuets, and then I through them out. I really love the look of real plants. For caring for plants depends on the plants you want. Also some fish will eat plants so it can depend on the fish you choose.
The next thing is the lighting. Some plants dont need much lighting, while others do.

For keeping the plants in just gravel.
I have kept plants in just gravile before, and they grew well. But I found some fertilizer mixises that you place under the gravel which work a treat.
I would suggest JBL Aqua Base Plus.
Also I use peat, for a plant substrate. The plants are growing very well and healthy with this as a fertilizing substrate. Make shaw you place gravel on the top or you will have a mess with fish stirring it up, and the filter current fiddling with it.
One down side of peat for some people is it gives of gives of some tannin, but I like the look because it imitates a lot of fishes home land environment.

For some of the fish you want, I would get the largest tank you could get.
And especially for the Angels. The clown Loaches also would need a very big tank, if you dont want to shorten their life by stunting them. You could get some smaller Loaches, like Zebra Loaches. They are very hardy and loverly Loach. Mine have never given me any problems. Other wise your list of thing appear really well thought out. Just be carful with the Barbs, some are very aggressive. I would go with a internal filter. there really work well.
Hope this helps,
macquatic

[Fishguy2727]

The only barbs that seem to really have any aggression problems are tigers. I have not had issues with the other species (gold, cherry, checkerboard, etc.).

[Luna]

Before you get started, read all you can. Make lists of things you need and go over the different products available (Drs. Foster & Smith online is a great resource). Learn about setting up your tank properly. I highly encourage you to learn about fishless and silent cycling. Read about proper stocking, by your tap water parameters, fish compatibility, and the size of your tank. (Oh, buy a liquid test kit for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH, KH, and GH.)

Live plants offer a special challenge to the hobbyist. They are beautiful and will only benefit the health of your tank. Yet, they turn your tank into a puzzle, with lighting, fertilizers, substrate, and CO2 as the pieces. If you are interested, definitely search "aquarium plants" on the internet. I also recommend buying a book or two if you get more serious about it. I really liked Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants by Peter Hiscock, and have been told that Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad is excellent.

That said, fake plants can be a good choice as well. I'm sure they look much better than the ones you had in the past. If the tank is aquascaped just right, they can look like the real thing. Silk or plastic depends on your stock. Plastic plants can rip delicate fins rather easily (those of bettas, goldfish, etc.).

Which "style" of 40 gallon tank are you looking at? Tall or breeder? If the breeder, you might consider a 50 or 65 gallon tank. They fit the same footprint but give you more water space to work with.

Definitely consider the newer power filters, and even look at the more expensive canister filters. They really are worth the extra money. Leave the UG filter on the store shelf. Those bubble makers are not really necessary if your filter has a high enough flow. If you want to keep plants, they are better left with the UGF... on the shelf.

[reef12]

Ditto what the fish guy said no UGF not worth the trouble.

Real plants are the way to go not hard but a little work and a good substrate and you will be good to go.
Plus a decent light setup.
Folks here will guide you thru it all.

[Fishguy2727]

Live plants do not need to be a lot of work. What I do extra for mine: add a few Seachem Flourish fertilizers. No CO2, no special substrate, so special lighting. Plants I have: cabomba (going nuts right now at under 1 watt per gallon), anacharis, amazon sword, radican sword, jungle val, giant val, giant hygrophila, moneywort, moss ball, ambulia, red ludwigia, and others.

[Luna]

No, they don't have to be. But it is still a puzzle to figure out the right balance of all the pieces. *wink*

[kaoticice]

I'm looking at all my tank with about 1watt per gallon in lighting and all the plants are thriving. Havent done any water change for about a month now, and ammonia, nitrite and nitrates are all 0. IMO there are no special care with live plants in compared with fake ones. As long as there are some decent light, plain substrates, and fish those live plants will survive/thrive. However, a word of advice to create planted tank is to pick the right plants as suggested by fishguy.

[Evil Slimy]

Fishguy, at 1wpg some of the plants you mention will be growing really fast because they are struggling to get more light. Cabomba and ludwigia are especially good at this. This causes them to have a lot of space (1" or 2") between leaf nodes. When these plants receive enough lights the spacing between each node along the stem is very short and ludwigia forms bushes, instead of remaining on individual stems.

[jimmyt]

wow.. thanks for the welcome and advice.. I guess things have changed! I have a few books that I picked up but from what I have found here, this is a much better resource. It sounds like live plants might be doable. I will check out some of the plant books and see where it goes! I will post back soon when I figure out which direction to go! thanks again all!

[Mvjnz]

I'd definitely say live. They use up a lot of nitrate and reduce algae growth. They also look very natural and pretty imo. They don't have to be a science to look good, there are plants that will grow very fast in low light and still look good, such as hygrophila polysperma. Not a good idea with mystery snails, but definitely one of my fav plants, because it handles abuse so well:)

I have one in my small tank with heaps of snail which are contantly munching on it, the only light is a small desk lamp, nothing aquarium related at all, and the tank is about a metre from a window but never gets any direct sunlight. And it's growing like mad and looking very green. No brown spots at all.

[NickFish]

Live plants are doable for anybody, and I believe that everybody should have some live plants in their tank.

Live plants are infinitely better than plastic, but some people are put off by the amount of care some say they take.

Sure, you can keep a very nice tank with over 3wpg, daily ferts, and CO2. And that is the route I choose to take, it works very well and nitrates are rarely go over 5ppm.

But you can still make a very nice planted tank with low lighting, no CO2, and virtually no ferts. It all depends on the plants you choose. Plants like Java Fern, Java moss, Bolbitis heudelotii, Anubias, Lemna, Anacharis, Fontinalis antipyretica, Salvinia molesta, and even crypts all grow well in low light, and a beautiful planted tank can easily be made with 1wpg or less. You just have to be creative.

[Fishguy2727]

Actually the spacing is pretty good. The cabomba is more spaced out down low (deeper in the water and in the shade) but up top it is dense and actually a red tint (the red pigment indicates high light, no need for the more efficient green pigment). The ludwigia is good too, I just have to trim it more to get it to bush out.

[jimmyt]

ok - so now you all have convinced me to go to a 55 gallon tank with real plants.. this should be interesting!

Here is what I am thinking - any thoughts would be appreciated -

55g - probably glass
sand bottom (the estes marine sand that fishguy recomends looks good)
live plants (dont know what yet)
biowheel hang on back filter(s)
air pump for an airstone - because they look cool :)
200w heater
lighting - not sure yet - need to research that a little more

what am I missing?

thanks

jim

[NickFish]

ok - so now you all have convinced me to go to a 55 gallon tank with real plants.. this should be interesting!

Here is what I am thinking - any thoughts would be appreciated -

55g - probably glass
sand bottom (the estes marine sand that fishguy recomends looks good)
live plants (dont know what yet)
biowheel hang on back filter(s)
air pump for an airstone - because they look cool :)
200w heater
lighting - not sure yet - need to research that a little more

what am I missing?

thanks

jim

That sand is really going to mess with your pH, unless I am mistaken. I recommend Flourite or Eco-Complete.

And I would say no airstone. Big mistake on a planted tank. Airstones provide oxygen for the fish, but planted tanks don't need oxygen too much, they need CO2. With no CO2 injection you are going to want to make as little surface movement as possible to cling on to all the CO2 you can. And with that same point, if you can you should would get a canister filter. Again, because there is less surface movement. Not that important though, but it does help. The importance of CO2 depends on how many plants you want and the kind of plants.

You may also need to use a little ferts, but that depends heavily on the plants you are getting and the quantity of plants you are getting.

[Fishguy2727]

That sand will not alter your pH or anything else at all.

I have a Biowheel on my 75 and had air stones on it when I had the goldfish in there. I have not seen any difference except maybe the plants did a little better when the goldfish were in there, but that was probably because of the extra waste from the goldfish, not the air stones.

I am not a big fan of the Biowheel filters at all. The Biowheels are the best form of biological filtration, but the cartridges are over-priced, not re-usable, not that great anyway, and include carbon. I do not use carbon at all in any of my tanks and definitely would not use it in a planted tank. There is a whole article on it in my blog for more information.

Check out T5 lights. Coralife has some and they are very reasonably priced.

Just try different plants that you like. Worst case they don't make it, not big deal. You never know how well they will do if you don't try. I have yet to have any die off on me, but some did too well (duckweed and crystalwort mainly).

Definitely get glass. Acrylic scratches way too easily. It is a lot lighter, but how often are you moving the tank and how often are you looking at it. 55s are not bad anyway, I can move one by muself without major issues (it is just large and awkward).

A canister would be better anyways. I use Fluvals and they are great. I would put a Fluval 405 on there. Depending on the fish I may recommend more.

What fish are you planning on?

[Luna]

I suggest two heaters at 100 to 150 watts each. That provides a better spread of heat around the tank, and also gives you a back up if one fails.

Also, Nick is correct about airstones. They are not good for planted tanks.

Substrate is really up to you. There are pros and cons to sand. I really know nothing about that particular brand of sand, but I would hesitate to use anything labeled "marine" in a freshwater tank. Play sand from a home-improvement store works just as well and is probably cheaper.

Biowheels can be a good choice for any tank. I have a few tricks for the cartridge that makes them last longer. (cut the floss, dump/scrape out carbon... etc.) But, like the airstones, the biowheel MAY cause too much surface agitation. There are canister filters for 55 gallon tanks that won't break the bank, but still work very well.

There are LOTS of lighting options available. I only just figured out my lighting plan for a near-future tank... and it took 5 months! hehe... Any Coralife systems are good. AquaHobby Supply also sells a nice setup. Hagen sells a T5 system at the chain stores. Lots of options!

[Fishguy2727]

Biowheels are excellent at aeration.

The sand is actually just silica sand with a polymer on it to keep the silicates from getting into the water. There are risks with hardware and pool store bought sands, these are discussed in the article on sand in my blog. I think it is only labeled as marine sand because marine keepers are more likely to buy sand. I think it still says on the package that it is perfectly safe for fresh or saltwater.

[Luna]

That they are... and that's not necessarily a good thing in planted tanks. Nick explained it fairly well. Surface agitation causes CO2 to dissipate, and plants need CO2 even underwater. (You probably know. I just want to make that clear.)

Good to know about the sand. I think that's something you have to learn about and make the best decision for your tank. I know plenty of people have had good experience with play sand, but there are risks involved.

[Fishguy2727]

Lady Hobbs is fighting brown algae right now and it seems to be to all the excess silicates from her non-aquarium bought sand.

CO2 is an issue, but at least in my tanks it does not seem to bother the plants at all since most of the tanks have either an air stone or Biowheel. If you are not adding CO2 and are lightly stocked I think a decent amount of plants could use up most the CO2 pretty quickly, in which case the CO2 from the air in the room may help (via aeration). We usually think of air stones as oxygenators, but they really just introduce any gasses from the room into the tank (oxygen, CO2, cigarette smoke, etc.). So I think in some cases it may not actually be that bad, mainly if you are lightly stocked.

[jimmyt]

thanks again everyone.. I have been doing a lot of reading and am starting to form some ideas.. I like the 2 heater option - makes sense. I found a LFS here in Cincinnati that stocks estes marine sand so I will check it out - besides that, what is the smallest gravel you can find? Seems like the smallest I have seen is 4-5mm (in case I dont like the sand) - how quiet are the canister (fluval) filters? Sounds like the canister filter will do it all and I wont need a HOB filter. From what I have read the fluval does a good job of surface agitation - that combined with an airstone should be enough to get some co2 in the water for the plants. agree? Finally, I think I am going to get a few loaches - looks like the 55 gal may be too small for clowns, but there are some other cool ones out there.. one thing I have read on loaches is they like a little flow in the tank - would a powerhead be needed for the bottom or will the fluval provide enough?

Once I get closer to actually setting this thing up and decide on exact equipment (next 30-60 days) I will move this to a new thread with the actual components.

thanks!!

jim

[Nick_Pavlovski]

It's always up to you. Why not try some real and some plastic, and see how it goes?
You've had plenty of recommendations from others. They've already said Java moss - wonderfully tough stuff. I'll add Elodea.

[Luna]

From what I have read the fluval does a good job of surface agitation - that combined with an airstone should be enough to get some co2 in the water for the plants. agree?

No, I don't, actually. haha... Surface agitation actually releases more CO2 than it would add. Airstones don't do much to add CO2, either. If you reduce the surface agitation, you will be able to hang on to it all. And depending on how much light you have, you may need to add CO2. (Generally over 2.5 watts per gallon.)

That said, the Fluval canisters are quite good. It's hard to have a bad canister filter, I think.

[Fishguy2727]

Fluvals can add a lot of surface agitation, or provide none at all depending on how low in the tank you set up the out put. They are also dead silent. I had my ear 3" away from my first 405 when I set it up and I still had to touch it to make sure it was on. Even the FX5 is hard to tell if it is on. You don't notice it when you are just in the room, but when it turns off you can tell the difference (minimal noise for such a monster).

There is a lot of CO2 in the air, a lot more than is in water (just like oxygen). With lightly stocked tanks with lots of plants I think aeration could introduce enough CO2. But in those same cases CO2 systems can also work, if you want to get into them (they have their costs, risks, and headaches). Aeration and surface agitation releases CO2 if there is that much in the water. This is why people who use CO2 try and keep aeration down to a minimum. But if you are not using CO2 the plants can use up all the CO2 from a small bioload pretty quickly and therefore introducing CO2 from the air will only do good. I don't use CO2 and have lots of aeration on all my tanks (they are fish tanks first, planted tanks second, the fishes' needs always come before the plants') and I see no problems with the plants because of it.

[NickFish]

About 97-99% of the air is made up of nitrogen and oxygen. The last 1-3% is the carbon dioxide, argon, and all the other gases.

Sure surface agitation brings in CO2, but out of all the gases it brings in to the water, on average only about 1% of it is CO2. In a planted tank you want to aim for between 10-25ppm of CO2. Normal tap water contains between 2-5ppm of CO2. Not even near what a heavily planted tank should be at. Plants can still grow, and even thrive at a low CO2 level, but if you are already so low why take your valuable CO2 away? Hang on to what you have and keep surface agitation to a minimum.

[Luna]

It's even less than that. About 78.084% of the air is nitrogen, 20.948% is oxygen, 0.934% is argon, and 0.031% is carbon dioxide. The rest is water vapor and other stuff.

[NickFish]

It's even less than that. About 78.084% of the air is nitrogen, 20.948% is oxygen, 0.934% is argon, and 0.031% is carbon dioxide. The rest is water vapor and other stuff.

Well, of course CO2 is higher indoors than outside, but ya, it is very little.

Much less than in the water.

[Augus]

Live plants.

would like to suggest couple of site with great forum about live plants.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[NickFish]

Greg Morin, CEO of Seachem with his ph/d in organic chemistry wrote in one of his books -

"Studies have shown that plants with the greatest carbon affinity have the greatest growth rates, whereas those with lower carbon affinity have correspondingly slower growth rates. Because carbon availability is normally the limiting factor to growth, addition of CO2 to a planted aquarium will always result in large increases in growth (assuming other critical elements are not lacking).

Without additional CO2 the growth rate will be dependent on the rate at which atmospheric CO2 equilibrates into the water. CO2 will dissolve into CO2-free water to a degree that is dependent on the air pressure, temperature, pH and bicarbonate/carbonate content of the water. The final concentration of CO2 in the water depends entirely on those factors. Once that concentration is achieved, the level of CO2 will not change unless the plants remove it or one of the other factors is altered.
Plants remove CO2 at a rate much greater than the rate at which it equilibrates into the water."

[Fishguy2727]

Plants can remove it faster. My statement had a couple of prerequisites, one is that there is no CO2 addition (otherwise you would obviously you would be losing what you are adding). The other is that the CO2 supplied by fish and other respiring animals does not match what the plants are consuming. In this situation the CO2 concentration will simply go down. Since there is CO2 in the air if the plants are removing all that is produced in the water, then aeration will increase the level of CO2. I never said it would replace CO2 systems, just that without any CO2 addition, this may be the best option.

[fraggle]

I had live plants in my tank before these 2 but didn't really know what I was doing and they weren't very healthy and didn't grow and ended up dying. Gave plants another go when I got these tanks but I also got silver dollars and they eat EVERYTHING, so I've got silk ones now.

[TRDNiteLife]

I have a mix of silk and plastic plants. Some plants look better in plastic, others look better in silk. I love the look of real but don't want to spend extra time/money on starting and maintaining them. I also don't have sufficient lighting for even low light plants in my 72 gallon. I got my fake plants on EBay for very cheap.

[NickFish]

Don't change your answer Fishguy......

[LosC]

Live plants. I keep my tanks light to medium planted, ppl make live plants seem like they require soo much extra work, virtually no extra work for my tanks unless i am unsatisfied with the look. To make a quick buck, I pull out or cut my grow outs and sell em.

[mikewilliams]

I just got a big geranium order in from this company; I have ordered in the past and was always pleased. Though I have received small plants in the past that didn't survive. MOST of the time the plants are fantastic, But this is by far the best selection and healthiest of all pelargonium. I’ve ever received from any company.

----------------
mikewilliams

Missouri Treatment Centers ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]" REL="DOFOLLOW)

[chuckf]

Welcome back! I have a diffirent opinion from others. I set up my tanks we a mixure of live and plastic plants. I use to plastic plants only to provide cover for timid fish until the live plants fill out. The I slowly remove the plastic ones. The advantages of live plants is that they move more naturally in flowing water, the fish seem to act more naturally around them (a guess on my part) and most importantly, they sop up extra nutrients from the water column and help prevent nuisance algal blooms.

It is well documented that most plants do not like growing under the 12-15 watts fluorescent light hoods common in smaller tanks. However, I have found the Java Fern/moss (Vesicularia dubyana) grows great under low light conditions. I can attach it to rocks or wood, but it is just as happy sending its rhizomes into a coarse/medium sized gravel bottom. It is hardy and when it gets going, you can harvest clippings and stick them in another tank. Good stuff!