Why feed Oscars such weird stuff?

[Lady Hobbs]

Why do people feed their Oscars such odd things? I was looking at You Tube (again) yesterday and getting all disgusted again watching the Oscar video's. People are feeding them toads, hamsters, mice, etc. I don't understand why people think feeding fish small hairy animals is something the fish has in it's normal food chain. You'd think digesting hair animals would be difficult for them to swallow much less digest. I expect to be seeing baby rabbits and birds next.

[Boertjie]

Those persons should be reported to the animal cruelty. How can they do that?
If I had Oscar's, they would get the best food and diet only. It shows you some people see their fish as ornaments or means of entertainment only!

:jaws:

[MCHRKiller]

I wouldnt really mind feeding ones large fish pinkies. But larger rodents and such just seems a bit stupid to me...Im sure that fish may occasionally eat such things but I sure wouldnt make a habbit of it. But I agree that some people just get a complex over keeping large fish that can and do eat other things.

[Nick89]

I'ts not animal cruelty, because thats what people who have pet snakes have to feed is mice. But i do agree that oscars shouldnt have mice..

[Fishguy2727]

It is cruelty when it UNNECESSARILY causes harm to animals just for the enjoyment of the keeper. Snakes NEED to eat rodents and similar animals. Some would argue that means they should not even be kept as pets, but that is a different thread completely. Oscars do not need to eat the animals listed above. Many people get fish like this simply for the joy of watching it eat, including things like this.

It can be a challenge to say it is wrong to feed them these animals but its okay to continue to strip the oceans of all their animals for higher quality ingredients in high end fish foods (that it is wrong to do it to one animal, but not when you do it to a different animal). The argument lies in its effect on the fish that is doing the eating. Since these diets are most likely far from balanced and comppete, that is the problem.

[angelcakes]

UNNECESSARILY barbaric springs to mind:smad:
why a small rodent.....i agree for snakes and other reptiles yes,oscars no,

[Fishguy2727]

Do the oscars get an otherwise vegetarian diet? Isn't is just as barbaric to pull fish from an already depleted sea and either let them suffocate in the air or slowly suffer in horribly cramped holding tanks on a ship, just to end up ground up (whether still alive or not)? I am not saying it is not wrong, but that good solid reasoning needs to be used against it, something past the initial disgust and shock of the animals being fed.

[Ryuu]

Oh jeez hamsters!! and Mice!!! and toads!!! poor things!!!!

[Billythefish]

Those persons should be reported to the animal cruelty. How can they do that?
If I had Oscar's, they would get the best food and diet only. It shows you some people see their fish as ornaments or means of entertainment only!

:jaws:
Have you got contradiction kelvin kline after shave on today ? Its just that your wife gemstone said in a tread that you got bit by a oscar in your local lfs because you was trying to pet it... Dont that make you just as bad!!!.

Hobbs: for some reason some people do stupid things with there oscars i'll never understand why .

[gm72]

Its just that your wife gemstone said in a tread that you got bit by a oscar in your local lfs because you was trying to pet it... Dont that make you just as bad!!!.

I don't understand this line of discussion--how are we comparing petting an animal to feeding it a live animal?

[Billythefish]

I don't understand this line of discussion--how are we comparing petting an animal to feeding it a live animal?
Its mistreatment of the oscar (imo) all the same gm.. He thinks its bad to treat fish bad by feeding them crap and is just for the keepers enjoyment even tho its wrong.. Same as petting (imo)

[Fishguy2727]

It sounds like the oscar that bit him mistreated him and he got his due. Many people pet oscars and other fish. This is not stressful for them unless you chase them around the tank or net them so you can do it. From what little of the story I have heard it sounds like he tried, the oscar said no, and no harm (to the fish) was done.

I can't see how someone can say petting them is wrong unless they do not have any pets at all. (Keeping them in a glass box in an attempt at giving them a good life is arguably just as wrong.)

[gm72]

Fishguy, that's what I am thinking, too. My oscar actually likes to be touched as do my dojo loaches. If I put my hand in the tank they'll actually glide against it. Obviously not wrong for them, anyway.

[Billythefish]

It sounds like the oscar that bit him mistreated him and he got his due. Many people pet oscars and other fish. This is not stressful for them unless you chase them around the tank or net them so you can do it. From what little of the story I have heard it sounds like he tried, the oscar said no, and no harm (to the fish) was done.

I can't see how someone can say petting them is wrong unless they do not have any pets at all. (Keeping them in a glass box in an attempt at giving them a good life is arguably just as wrong.)
The slime coat on fish is the fishes first defence against infection disease ect... By petting fish you are removing it and risking such things... how can anyone argue with that !, also we keep are fish in glass boxes yes and try to replicate the fishes natural environment ect ect in what way dose human petting come into that?, its the same with food fishguy you know that better than most.. We try and give them food that is as natural to the food that thay would get in the wild.

[Incredulous_Ed]

Im not sure. I think if your hands are wet, it doesnt disturb the slime coat. I think it's only if your hands are dry it messes with it.

[Fishguy2727]

You may remove a little slime coat, but not much. I have never once handled a fish and it resulted in them getting any type of infection. Unless there are other issues going on (like very poor water quality or a poor diet) they should be happy and thriving, which means it is very hard to cause problems. Hand-catching is actually a lot easier on them than netting, and that is when you are going against their will and removing them from the water, so a slight caress that they like is far from harmful. If they come up to your hand and want you to pet them, you should deny them that (which is stressful) because theoretically it causes harm? They produce a lot of slime coat and what very little would be removed will be replaced very quickly.

I brought up the glass box because I think it does not make sense to focus so hard on one single simple act that has no measurable, tangible harm while overlooking everything else.

Any examples of cases where a single gentle touch of a human hand knowingly caused an infection in the fish?

[Lady Hobbs]

I'm trying to see what petting your fish has to do with feeding him hair balls. Fish have different digestive systems than that of snakes and I don't believe eating hair and digesting larger bones in rodents is beneficial to them in any way. I think it's using your fish as an exhibition rather than offer it proper nutrition.

Ya know, kick back, pop another beer and toss your fish a mouse for dinner then sit and laugh at the mouse trying to escape and the fish trying to swallow it.

[Allecto]

Responsible snake owners will feed their snakes small animals that have been put down as humanely as possible before giving them to their snakes, if at all possible.

I think what is sticking in people's craw about animal cruelty here is the following:

1) Live hamsters, toads, etc are NOT an essential part of an oscar's diet, and do not represent the best care one could give to their pet.

2) Most oscars will readily accept other food items. I mean, has anyone here had an oscar that refused to eat unless it was a live mammal? Anyone?

3) Even if it was being done because it was needed to keep the oscar alive, the owners are clearly also very motivated by entertainment value. Accepting that some animals have to die to be used in oscar food (like dog or cat food) is very, very different from celebrating watching a live animal afraid and fighting for it's life as the ravenous fish try to consume it alive--- and then posting these frightened, dying moments online for others to laugh and gawk at.

Believe me, I love playing devil's advocate as much as the next guy, but do you really not see a difference?

Do you also not see a difference between eating a drumstick and chewing on a live chicken for giggles?

[Billythefish]

You may remove a little slime coat, but not much. I have never once handled a fish and it resulted in them getting any type of infection. Unless there are other issues going on (like very poor water quality or a poor diet) they should be happy and thriving, which means it is very hard to cause problems. Hand-catching is actually a lot easier on them than netting, and that is when you are going against their will and removing them from the water, so a slight caress that they like is far from harmful. If they come up to your hand and want you to pet them, you should deny them that (which is stressful) because theoretically it causes harm? They produce a lot of slime coat and what very little would be removed will be replaced very quickly.

I brought up the glass box because I think it does not make sense to focus so hard on one single simple act that has no measurable, tangible harm while overlooking everything else.

Any examples of cases where a single gentle touch of a human hand knowingly caused an infection in the fish?
I dont understand why you cant agree with what i alredy said after all it makes perfect sence!, yes fishyguy ive seen loads of fish on youtube being overly petted not just a gental stroke as you put it.. I cant see how this wouldn't harm them in some way!, and what about t.b

[Incredulous_Ed]

I dont understand why you cant agree with what i alredy said after all it makes perfect sence!, yes fishyguy ive seen loads of fish on youtube being overly petted not just a gental stroke as you put it.. I cant see how this wouldn't harm them in some way!, and what about t.b
I dont think you would get TB unless you had an open cut, which if you did your and shouldnt be in the water anyway, and if you kept the water not very clean.

[Billythefish]

I dont think you would get TB unless you had an open cut, which if you did your and shouldnt be in the water anyway, and if you kept the water not very clean.
And if the fish bit you?

[cocoa_pleco]

petting isnt bad, my largest pacu actually likes to be pet and gently bite on my fingers, first time was a accident and he is more than capable of breaking my finger. just throw in slime coat after

I think people feed oscars weird food because of how tough of a reputation oscars have

[Lady Hobbs]

And if the fish bit you?

Give it up! jeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz

[Fishguy2727]

Apparently it does not make perfect since, after all not every one is prefect agreement with you. How do you transport your fish from the LFS to home or from tank to tank?

I have some fancy goldfish (very sensitive) and I will pet and handle them in their tank, or HANDle them when moving them. I never use Stress Coat or any other 'slime coat replacement' and have never had any issues with this. This is also the suggested method for handling discus, another very sensitive fish. Apparently it is a very remote and small risk, if a risk at all.

Rough handling no matter what will stress the fish and this is what causes illness. Whether done by hand, net, or something worse, it is the nature of the handling, not the hand, doing the harm.

"Do you also not see a difference between eating a drumstick and chewing on a live chicken for giggles?"
This is a very common viewpoint. As long as it is not cute and looking at me with its big cute eyes here and now, I just don't think about it. Whether it died in front of you or at a factory somewhere, it died a horrible death (most likely worse at the factory where you didn't see it happen). That is not exactly your point, and yes it is wrong to do any animal harm just for the kick of it. All I am saying is that I personally think there is not much land for someone to stand on who says it is wrong to do it with a small mammal but completely alright to do it to a fish in a factory in order to make the food the oscar should be eating.

"yes fishyguy ive seen loads of fish on youtube being overly petted not just a gental stroke as you put it.. "
We weren't talking about people online being idiots and making videos, we were talking about gently petting fish that like to be pet.

The hair is hard to digest (I can't think of a single animal that can digest hair), but the bones are actually much easier. They have enzymes for bones, mammals just have more of them. If it was a rare treat and just a pinky or something it would be one thing. But I think it is obvious that the people making the videos in question are wrong, plain and simple.

Unfortunately this is just a sliver of all the wrong done to oscars, not to mention every other pet. The usual worst case (and VERY common situation) is a couple oscars in a 55, usually in addition to pacus and/or assorted cichlids. The tank has one or two HOBs, never gets a water change ("don't fix it if it ain't broken"), and just gets a bag of goldfish every week for them to eat.

All fish carry TB now? (Exactly how frequently does fish related TB come up? ANY known cases?)

[Allecto]

"Do you also not see a difference between eating a drumstick and chewing on a live chicken for giggles?"
This is a very common viewpoint. As long as it is not cute and looking at me with its big cute eyes here and now, I just don't think about it. Whether it died in front of you or at a factory somewhere, it died a horrible death (most likely worse at the factory where you didn't see it happen). That is not exactly your point, and yes it is wrong to do any animal harm just for the kick of it. All I am saying is that I personally think there is not much land for someone to stand on who says it is wrong to do it with a small mammal but completely alright to do it to a fish in a factory in order to make the food the oscar should be eating.




I didn't say anything remotely resembling 'as long as it is not cute and looking at me with its big cute eyes here and now, I don't think about it'.

The point you chose to misconstrue was that I felt it was wrong to cause protracted suffering to an animal simply because it gives you a thrill. It wasn't an argument about killing your own food or having someone else do it at all.

I have actually been in factories and seen food processed (the seafood I saw was mostly salmon for roe and meat). And while you are correct that it didn't look like the salmon were getting too many kicks out of it, it did look like it beat the heck out of being slowly eaten alive while an audience applauded.



And, for the record, I've never had a problem slaughtering live stock or euthanizing cute, little furry things with big eyes for my snakes, so that argument really doesn't fly.

[Billythefish]

Give it up! jeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz
Am i not entitled to my opinion because its not the same as the others?

Fishguy: just to let you know that im not alone with my opinions as some people have +rep them and i gess thay dont want to argue in this thread, my point on t.p is why would you risk it??? Also being a fish lover/keeper why would you risk there health, when you take all what i have said dont it make any sence to you?.. You being the guy that feels so strongly about giving the best possible food to your fish and then going off and petting yours dosen't make much sence to me at all.

Oh and when i buy my fish i insist thay be court in a submerged bag.. And do the same if i need to put them in a different tank

[Fishguy2727]

The only real issue here, in my opinion, is that the fish are unnecessarily being given a poor diet.

If my snake will only eat live and I watch and enjoy it (perhaps even taping it and posting it on the net) does that make it or me wrong?

Your statement hinted at a common belief that many people have, and I even stated that I understood that what I explained was not your point and acknowledged that.

My point is that either way, oscars get meat in their diet. Mice and toads happen to be a very poor choice for it, but that people need to realize that the fish used in even the best prepared foods suffer just as much, if not a lot more. The only difference I see hear is that the animals discussed here are bad choices for an oscar's diet.

[Fishguy2727]

The point is that it seems you are GREATLY over-exaggerating the risk. How many fish that are pet or handled by hand ever get skin infections? It is actually a less stressful method of handling than netting.

I have seen the horrible results of fish not fed a proper diet and to me it seems to be the number one cause of fish problems (possibly/probably tied with water quality).

I have not seen or even heard of cases where petting them caused ANY issue at all. You state the risk is simply not worth it (even though the fish like it), but upon examination there really seems to be no real risk at all. If the fish like it and have absolutely no negative effects from it (only positive since they like it), where exactly is the harm? Keep in mind I am not talking about chasing your fish around the tank in order to handle it against its will, but the fish that under their own will and desire come up to your hand when it is in the tank and WANT to be pet.

Again with TB, if there are effectively no cases out there, it is not really a risk. If you focus on those super rare risks of disease, how can you go outside?

[Allecto]

Ok, just out of curiousity now, how do you know all the fish that go into oscar food suffer more than a hamster thrown in a tank of hungry cichlids?


And as far a the snake eating live goes... totally different situation. That would be required to keep your animal alive, in the instances we are discussing it is not required at all, and is even ill advised.


But to be honest, I would still find it somewhat repugnant if you did enjoy watching small animals die so very much that you made video keepsakes of it. What is to enjoy about a terrified animal's last gasps?

[Allecto]

Just adding that a pelleted food or an appropriate prey animal is also a lot less likely to take a mean bite out of your oscar than a drowning hamster is.

[Fishguy2727]

I don't, but many people enjouy seeing predators doing what they do, eating animals. People get big fish to see them eat feeder fish. People buy snakes to watch them eat a mouse whole. For almost all it is not about the animal dying, but the impressive act of the predator. Yes, there are the few that enjoy pain, sad.

That is part of my point, it is an unnecessary part of their diet. I personally think it is just as bad to toss in feeder fish if the oscar will eat pellets as it is to toss in a pinky on a rare occasion. Either way you are unnecessarily striking the most pure and strong form of fear into that animal.

I do not know, nor did I say, that EVERY fish suffers. But I do think it is a horrible death to be netted or hooked, dragged out of the water into the air which they cannot breathe (like an alien pulling us into space after netting us), then either hacking us up live, tossing us into an overstocked holding tank (reminds me of the jews during the holocaust), or simply letting them suffocate to death in the air. All of those sound horrible to me.

[Fishguy2727]

"Just adding that a pelleted food or an appropriate prey animal is also a lot less likely to take a mean bite out of your oscar than a drowning hamster is."

Very good point. This is the biggest reason to feed pre-killed to snakes and other animals that have to eat whole animals. And it is more reason that these are such horrible choices to include in an oscar's diet.

[Allecto]

You can be impressed with the snake eating without feeding it live. My comments were specifically addressed to your question about enjoying feeding live food. Most snakes will stalk and constrict a pre-killed prey item, so you wouldn't be missing out on any of the hunting fun. All the impressive acts of predation are still there, minus the prey terror.


As far as holding tanks being concentration camps, I am not even dignifying that with a counter-argument.

[Allecto]

But I do think it is a horrible death to be netted or hooked, dragged out of the water into the air which they cannot breathe (like an alien pulling us into space after netting us), then either hacking us up live, tossing us into an overstocked holding tank *snip*, or simply letting them suffocate to death in the air. All of those sound horrible to me.

Well, the furry animals used for predatory fish are horribly over-crowded in pet shops, thrown into an environment they can't breathe, beaten up and eaten alive (sometimes in one piece, sometimes not), or allowed to drown in the tanks. All those are horrible, but at least the fish part doesn't also threaten the well-being of the predator/pet. So, I think your argument still shows this as the better way.

[Billythefish]

The point is that it seems you are GREATLY over-exaggerating the risk. How many fish that are pet or handled by hand ever get skin infections? It is actually a less stressful method of handling than netting.

I have seen the horrible results of fish not fed a proper diet and to me it seems to be the number one cause of fish problems (possibly/probably tied with water quality).

I have not seen or even heard of cases where petting them caused ANY issue at all. You state the risk is simply not worth it (even though the fish like it), but upon examination there really seems to be no real risk at all. If the fish like it and have absolutely no negative effects from it (only positive since they like it), where exactly is the harm? Keep in mind I am not talking about chasing your fish around the tank in order to handle it against its will, but the fish that under their own will and desire come up to your hand when it is in the tank and WANT to be pet.

Again with TB, if there are effectively no cases out there, it is not really a risk. If you focus on those super rare risks of disease, how can you go outside?
How in the world can you state that the fish like it! Are you a fish?.. Is it not just a case of wanting food!!!,
The facts as i see it is that people that pet there fish couldn't possibly know if thay have removed a dangerous amuont of the fishes slime coat.. And dont know if the fish will bite them and give them t.b.. Thuss why risk it!

[Fishguy2727]

I assume the fish is aware of what it is doing. Is that a bad assumption? I assume that if the fish repeatedly comes up to its owner, when no food is present, swims into or against their hand and stays there as the keeper pets it, that the fish likes it. Where is the bad assumption? If they did not like it they would not do it. Is that a bad assumption? If they were only after food they would simply leave the hand when they realized no food was being offered. Is that a bad assumption?

Why the paranoia about TB? Again, so careful about the ultra-rare risk of TB from fish, how can you ever leave your house? How risky is the whole world and you won't even touch your fish because it may have TB? Is TB possibly carried by all species or just some?

Some snakes refuse all foods except those that are alive and moving. In those cases is it wrong to watch and enjoy the snake doing what it does?

Again, I never said it was a good thing to feed an oscar any of the listed animals.

How are extremely overstocked holding tanks for fish different from how the jews were treated during the holocaust? They were crowded on trains and just as crowded as goldfish are in feeder tanks or fish are in holding tanks on fishing ships. I know it sounds a bit extreme to bring up something so severe in human history, but I really feel it illustrates what we do to fish (and many other animals).