PH Question

[nraposa]

Have bothered you guys alot lately sorry. Just want to thank you guys again but now I have a new problem and it's starting to feel like maybe there a domino effect going on here.

First Ammonia was way high did daily changes added the stress zyme and know it's down.

Then started to notice the ich on two of my fish. Upped the temp to 84 and added salt slowly to tank. did lose one of my fish though not one of the two infested with ich. Still in the process of removing ich

Today took my daily readings and PH soared up to 8.8 it was 7.4 36 hours ago when i last took reading. what's causing jump is it the salt is it the cycle it's self and it's normal. also if it's not normal should I add ph regulator while i'm trying to rid ich in tank.

ammonia .25
nitrites 0
nitrates 5.0

pleease please help thank you guys

by the way is this normal for problems to snowball like this :help:

[f1oored]

Using fish to cycle a tank offten has the problem snowball effect. The fish were exposed to ammonia and that causes them stress which opens them up to disease which you fix by adding salt which buffers the pH up which stresses the fish more.

Salt can buffer the pH up, you may have wanted to use a quick cure med instead if any of your fish happen to not like salt. A ich med would probably be more effective with less side effects. You can start doing water changes to remove the salt and lower the pH. I would try an ich med next.

BTW you aren't bothering us. We like to answer questions, it makes us feel useful lol. The one lesson you should learn from this is..... fishless cycle. So very much easier and less stressful. Let us know how things progress.

[Lady Hobbs]

I'm going to have to disagree with f1oored here. Salt does not change the pH.

What I would be concerned about is the type of gravel you have used. Does it have crushed coral in it? Are you using any shells? Those would both raise the pH as well as aerating the water.

Aerating the water will cause it to go up a bit but not like yours have.

I would also be curious what kind of test kit you are using? The strips are very inaccurate so you can not really base it on that. You should also test the pH in your water right from the tap. That may also be naturally high in pH.

Many people have gone to cichlids tanks simple because they normally have a high pH in the water system so have gone with a fish that demand higher levels.

Add nothing to bring the pH down as it will only go back up again. Raising the pH is easy but bringing it down is next to impossible so save your money there.

Stressed fish are very often affected by ICK and also fin rot. Their resistance is down due to all the ammonia and nitrite poisoning they've gone thru and getting ICK now is not uncommon.

But, congratulations. That tank is about done with it's cycle. I'd do a water change to see if that pH will stay down this time.

I don't treat parasites with salt because I think what they recommend ( 1 t per gallon) is too much for anything but very hardy fish. Between high salt amounts and high temps for a week or more.......how much can your fish take? I get the cheap Jungle Lab Parasite Meds which usually does the trick the first application. And it does not change your biological bacteria like the Fungus med does.

Ick is still in the tank reproducting after you don't see it on the fish so I always leave the meds in the tank for several days after I no longer see it on the fish.

And never apologize for asking questions. That's what keeps the forum going.

[Sasquatch]

I'm going to have to disagree with f1oored here. Salt does not change the pH.

Well, we seem to have a little debate here. We've added salt to our platy tank and it does tend to raise the pH.

As for the ich problem, we've had a lot of success with Malachite Green. You have to be careful, with tetras and Catfish you have to cut the concentration in half, so it's less effective.

[Cichlid_Man]

Hobbs, you are right on the money.

It all depends on what "we" mean by salt?
Epsom salts are NOT a salt, or sodium chloride, and epsom salts WILL raise PH, GH and KH.
Aquarium salt doesn't do anything to PH.

What I would do is another 30% water change, and get yourself some quick cure for Ich.
Treat for 10 days.

People are relying on salt too much. There are meds out there that are great and the fish cure easy.

Fresh water fish don't need salt.

I may have posted somewhere that salt is effective for Ich, and maybe it is, but since we all are learning more each day, I no longer support that theory

[Lady Hobbs]

Well, we seem to have a little debate here. We've added salt to our platy tank and it does tend to raise the pH.


No debate from me. I know salt did not raise his pH from 7.4 to 8.6 or whatever his numbers were if he just used aquarium salt.

I read so much about using salt because with my pH of 7.6, I did not want it to go up any further. Fish that come from somewhat salty water can tolerate it in their tank but for fish that come from saltless water, it can be harmful to them and break down their slime coat. Which enables parasites to invade the body easier without this protection coating. Live barriers like your platies do tend to need some salt but if they are in a mixed tank with others that don't do well with it, it's best to leave it out of the tank.

Not only are the fish stressed to start with due to the ICK, they are then stressed out even more with high temps and a tank full of salt that they have a hard time coping with.

Salt is vital to keeping high nitrites down during a cycle, however. Makes the nitrites less toxic. This is the only time I would put it in my tank......and I also have platies but in a community tank. I've had them almost a year and they are doing great.

[NorthernBoy]

IMO it is not salt that is causing the huge pH change. I would investigate the type of substrate, any other rocks in tank as well, and also your tap pH too. All of which I think hobbs has already said. I would suggest not trying to alter your pH as a stabile pH is better than a random one. Also if you find that your tap h2o is high try some african cichids and i think you will be very happy.

[Lady Hobbs]

Good point on those rocks NB.

Have you done an acid test on any of your stones in the tank? Soak them in some vinegar water. If any of them fizz....remove them.

[f1oored]

I was wrong. Aquarium salt alone will not push the pH up. I just did a little test with regular tap and very salty tap water and the pH was the same on both. My bad.

[Lady Hobbs]

No big thing. No one is right 100% of the time or look how boring it would be?

[jeffs99dime]

No big thing. No one is right 100% of the time or look how boring it would be?

speak for yourself hobbs. i'm always right! lololol j/k

[Lindsay_D]

But isn't it true that pH affects the toxicity of ammonia, and nitrite.

But also at the pH of 8 6.55 percent of ammonia is unionized. at the pH of 9, 41.23 percent of ammonia is unionized. unionized ammonia is stressful to warmwater fish at concentrations greater than .1 mg/L

I don't exactly know what i'm talking about really. i just thought id share.

[Lady Hobbs]

Yes, salt does reduce the stress associated with ammonia and nitrites but those are only present during a new cycle. (or should be) A cycled tank is 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. But neither of the above have anything to do with pH.

[Lindsay_D]

Not to fight with you but i think pH has something to do with the nitrite and ammonia

[Lady Hobbs]

Fight with me? HUH? :)

pH does have something to do with an uncycled tank. It does tend to rise on unestablished tanks and is lowered again thru water changes.

But what we were discussing here is salt raising the pH which it does not.

OK. Let's say I have a cycled tank here and added aquarium salt. The pH will not change due to the added salt.

I also have an uncyled tank that shows ammonia and nitrites are going nuts. That pH is jumping around..........going up for no reason. Adding salt will make the water less toxic but the salt alone is not screwing with the pH. It's that whole cycling progress.

I have used salt when I cycled all 4 of my tanks when nitrites were high as it can help the fish to survive and I never lost one so I believe it's beneficial during the cycling process.

On thing that gets me is trying to have community tanks where one fish is supposed to get salt, like live-barrers, and another fish does not do well in salt. I'd like to have a tank of rainbows (salt fish) but wanted to have my Angelfish or Silver Dollars with them. Neither of them do well in salt. So, what does one do? My choice is no salt and see how others do without it. Same problem arises when different fish require warmer temps than others.

Fish anymore that we buy are all farm raised with so many different pH requirements and salt requirements they have adapted to living with about whatever we give them if we keep the limits within reason. My angels should have a pH of 7 but are stuck with my pH which is 7.6 but they do fine with it.

Thank heavens fish are adaptable.

[Lindsay_D]

I was not saying that salt raises the pH...

I mostly quoted my fish bible book and it said that the pH can raise the nitrite and ammonia.

I don't know...I never should have said anything...This is why I don't get invovled cause i'm always wrong

[Lady Hobbs]

You are not always wrong, my friend. Am I'm happy to be having these posts with you. See? I was wrong. I thought you were saying all this time that the salt was raising the pH. :) :)

Duh!

[Lindsay_D]

well its okay...

but i'm still not going to give advice because i don't really know as much as you guys.

[Slinky_Bass]

well its okay...

but i'm still not going to give advice because i don't really know as much as you guys.
Sorry to butt in on this thread but I just had to say that you should not feel silly or embarrased to post advice Lindsay. I know I'm not familiar with you as a poster since you went really around when I joined, BUT I have read that you worked at a fish farm and you have obviously kept fish yourself for some time.

This (whether you realise it or not) has given you very valuable practical experience and I'm sure you've picked up quite a bit of theory too! Don't be scared to share what you've learnt, after all that's primarily what AC is all about, sharing ones experiance and knowledge so that we can all benefit. It's not a matter of "knowing as much as others", each persons fishkeeping experience is different and we all have something unique to offer and share!

[Lindsay_D]

I guess your right...Thanks....but i'm still going to but out for the most part..

until i feel comfortable talking about stuff i know

[jeffs99dime]

well its okay...

but i'm still not going to give advice because i don't really know as much as you guys.

but you soon will! everyone has to start somewhere:ezpi_wink1:

[nraposa]

Wow thanks for all the responses guys. This is a 10 Gallon tank No Rocks No Wood everything is fake. all I added to tank was Stress-zyme while I did my daily water changes to get ammonia down and now it's gone completely four days now. 0 on nitrites and between 5 and 10 on he nitrates. While I was getting the ammonia down I noticed the Ich that's when I added the salt the following day was When the p.h spiked from 7.4 to 8.6 I got nervouse so i did add some p.h. regulator it brought it down to 7.0 within an hour after i put it in it has slowly risen to 7.4 which is was before and has stayed put last two days. I had heard good things about the salt and bad thing about the malchite green med. but you guys are helping me change my mind. The Fish seem fine right now they are actively eating actively swimming around the two fish still has ich though. So I'm going to give it till saturday to see if the ich off my two fish is gone with the salt that's in there. If no luck I'm going to perform a 30% water change and then add half the amount of meds because I do have a tetra in there and make sure I use meds daily for ten days. Does this sound like the right way to go about? And also is there anything else I can use instead of the malachite green because I read that it is not the greatest. am I wrong or right?

Thank you guys for all your help I am learning a little everyday from you guys.
I am trying my best do this right and would be lost without you guys t.y.

[Lady Hobbs]

I recently tried a med that is called Lifeguard. Just a drop in pellet but it doesn't change water color, mess with biological media and treats all kinds of parasites both internally and externally as well as fungus. It was $10. Nice to find something that does it all.

[nraposa]

do you need to remove carbon filter

[jeffs99dime]

do you need to remove carbon filter

yes. carbon will remove meds from the water