saltwater 55g questions

[kaianuanu]

i have a few questions about starting a saltwater tank in a 55g.

1. do i need to have live rock if i use man-made filters instead of natural filteration?

2. what is the fastest method of cycling?

3. i want to have a sand bottom tank(no live rock), is this possible, if so how would it be achieved?

4. do i have 2 use some type of bacterial suplement be it live rock, live sand, or chemical(liquid) bacterial supplements?

[cocoa_pleco]

i have a few questions about starting a saltwater tank in a 55g.

1. do i need to have live rock if i use man-made filters instead of natural filteration?
Its possible, but LR-less tanks are not beginner friendly, harder to maintain, and not natural

2. what is the fastest method of cycling?
getting dead rock and letting it cure, or just get cured rock from the start

3. i want to have a sand bottom tank(no live rock), is this possible, if so how would it be achieved?
use live sand or aragonite, but LR IS RECOMMENDED

4. do i have 2 use some type of bacterial suplement be it live rock, live sand, or chemical(liquid) bacterial supplements?
If you use a balanced salt mix and do weekly water changes, you should have to add few dosings of chemicals, always test your levels though



__________________________

[Dave66]

1. No filtration is more natural and then live rock, and the presence of it plus a layer of live sand can, when the tank is mature, close the Nitrogen cycle.

2. There isn't one. A month to six weeks no matter what shortcut you try to use.

3. See number 1.

4. Not at all. The Live rock and sand will contain all the bacteria the tank will need.

5. Check my book list, particularly the salt water section.

Dave

[kaianuanu]

1. when you say lr less tanks does that apply even if you have live sand or other bacterial supplements

2. what do you mean by "letting cured rock die off"

3.could using man-made filteration, live sand, and other bacterial supplements be as easy as using LR

[cocoa_pleco]

sorry, screwed up on the die off thing, its been a long day. lol. like dave said, you should wait 6 months

You should always use LR, its the source of filtration and great source of marine life. If the price scares you, you can always get dead rock, which is about $1/lb. only thing is you have to cure it yourself (takes a few months)

Nothing will ever compete with LR's power, nothing i can think of to this date will do in a marine aquarium what live rock does

[kaianuanu]

could I just have a couple of pounds of lr in the back corners + a good man-made filter?

and for the easiest setups is man-made filteration out of the question?

oh, and what exactly does cure mean?

[cocoa_pleco]

easiest tank is using 1.5-2lbs/g LR. You can, however, use 0.5lbs-1lb/g LR and a man made filter

[kaianuanu]

i'm likin the 1/2-1lb. of LR + a power filter

and what does "cure Mean"

[cocoa_pleco]

cured is where the rock has life on it, and the critters can break ammonia down. LR also homes copepods which fish nibble on

[kaianuanu]

but won't i have to put it in the ocean to get those "critters" (not including corals and other inverts)

[cocoa_pleco]

but won't i have to put it in the ocean to get those "critters" (not including corals and other inverts)

nope, just stick it in a tank full of RO water mixed with sea salt, and a heater and powerhead. let it sit for a month or 2, and it will cure

[kaianuanu]

oh and how would i go about cleaning up all the poo and debrisof the bottom if i can't do 100% water changes What's R O water i've read about it but i'm not sure what exactly it is by tha way i'm greateful for all of your time i've been whasteing

[cocoa_pleco]

oh and how would i go about cleaning up all the poo and debrisof the bottom if i can't do 100% water changes

you just do 10-20% weekly water changes to replace minerals, you dont vacuum anything (unless you have algae issues and you want to vacuum out some)

[kaianuanu]

oh and how would i go about cleaning up all the poo and debrisof the bottom if i can't do 100% water changes What's R O water i've read about it but i'm not sure what exactly it is by tha way i'm greateful for all of your time i've been whasteing

i edited that last comment


oh but now that i have that bacteria(unlike freshwater) theyll'e break most of that poo down and turn it into nitrates.

right?

[cocoa_pleco]

RO water is reverse osmosis, most tapwater contains phosphates and other junk that feeds algae and cyano. RO is pure and will match your tanks levels quickly. You can get a RO machine that hooks up to your tap, or get bottled RO water from grocery stores (which is what i personally do)

youre not wasting my time, i like answering sw questions, and i could answer them all day!

[kaianuanu]

so, what would the basic equipment be 4 a 55: about 30lb.'s of live rock, a power filter(in my preferences), salt mix, ro water, lighting and test equipment(test kits, hydrometer,etc)

with ro water u don't need tap water conditioner, correct?

[kaianuanu]

also i was thinking about a nano reef, could I use a power filter without a cartridge as a powerhead?

and what exact species of clown fish is the "nemo" clownfish?

[Dave66]

Amphiprion percula, Kaianuanu. Just ask for the Percula Clownfish, and they'll take you to them.

Dave

[kaianuanu]

so, what would the basic equipment be 4 a 55: about 30lb.'s of live rock, a power filter(in my preferences), salt mix, ro water, lighting and test equipment(test kits, hydrometer,etc)

with ro water u don't need tap water conditioner, correct?

also i was thinking about a nano reef, could I use a power filter without a cartridge as a powerhead?

[Dave66]

so, what would the basic equipment be 4 a 55: about 30lb.'s of live rock, a power filter(in my preferences), salt mix, ro water, lighting and test equipment(test kits, hydrometer,etc)

with ro water u don't need tap water conditioner, correct?

also i was thinking about a nano reef, could I use a power filter without a cartridge as a powerhead?

Go for a decent refractometer, kaianuanu, instead of a hydrometer. The former is MUCH more accurate.

Salifert makes decent regent-based test kits for marine tanks. LaMotte has laboratory grade regents, and are thus far more expensive per kit, and to eliminate human error in interpreting results, a colorimeter, also by LaMotte, can be used, but is very expensive; over 800 dollars. However, if you want exact readings on your tests, it's the only way.

No, you don't need any conditioner with reverse osmosis water. Down the line you might want to invest in a good RO/DI unit for your tank.

You could, as waterfall-type HOB filters give the turbid current you need. However, if you don't keep your tank topped off with the RO water, you'll get salt splash all over the back of the tank, the hood, and the wall behind the tank.

Dave

[kaianuanu]

whats an RO/DI unit and a HOB ilter? is that a power filter?

[Dave66]

HOB = Hang on back power filter. HOB is a common term, like HOB Protein Skimmer, HOB refugium, etc.
RO/DI = Reverse Osmosis/De-ionization. From a good unit, the purest water you can get. Removes everything that ISN'T water. You'd mix your marine salts with it, and do your daily top offs with the pure freshwater of it.

Meant to add earlier putting a good protein skimmer on your list would prevent many ills in your tank.

Dave

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Something I would like to add to this on the topic ofLive Rock. In a Freshwater tank you really are only ever concerned with nitrifying bacteria. This is the breakdown of ammonia and subsequently nitrite as well. In a marine tank you also have to be concerned with de-nitrification, the breakdown of the nitrate as well. The de-nitrification process is an anareobic process and that is something that a HOB filter simply cannot provide. You need to have the live rock to provide that in sufficient quantity. This is a very important process in a marine tank because the organisms are far more sensitive to nitrates. IMO Live Rock is an indespensible part of a marine tank. It's possible to do it without it, but it's not a smart thing to do.

[NickFish]

IMO Live Rock is an indespensible part of a marine tank. It's possible to do it without it, but it's not a smart thing to do.

I agree completely with that.

Sure, you can make a tank with .5lbs live rock like you want to, but why would you? Live rock is the most important part of any saltwater tank. Your tank will be twice as hard to maintain with .5lbs live rock than it would with 1lb. That, and it will look very empty, not much room for aquascaping, and your bio-capacity will be severely decreased.

Here's my "recommended" equipment list for your tank-

-50lbs aragonite
-10lbs live sand
-at least 60lbs live rock
-Skimmer
-20-30 gallon sump
-Refugium of some sort
-A team of powerheads
-Heater x2 (one for water changes)
-Salt mix
-Refractometer
-RO/DI machine
-Lighting (depends on whether you are doing FOWLR or reef)
-Saltwater complete master test kits
-Books

Whatever money you save on Live rock now you'll spend later in maintenence costs. Like Cocoa said, you can get dead rock for $1 a pound.

[Fishguy2727]

Why do you not want to use live rock so much?

[oldhead]

Just to chime and stress importance, live rock is basically an absolute must. If it's the expense that you're concerned with then check your local classifieds or Craigslist for your area. You can find great deals on it as people break down their tanks. Live rock not only provides for all the things listed above but also is asthetically pleasing and creates a closer to natural enviroment for your animals leading to less stress and other problems for them. It also creates hiding spaces and the like for those creatures that are a tad more shy or need a quick escape.

Oh and as I mentioned in another thread tap water is evil, be sure to use a QUALITY RO water. You'll thank yourself later!

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Oh and as I mentioned in another thread tap water is evil, be sure to use a QUALITY RO water. You'll thank yourself later!

I just wanted to address this issue because it seems to be a very prevelant attitude. This is true probably 99% of the time. There are however a few of us around that are extremely lucky and have water out of the tap that is unbelieveable. Personally, my tap water is <1 dKH and <1 dGH and 0 phosphates. I use my tap water simply because it would be a large waste of money for me to go out and buy a RO/DI unit. My TDS is somewhere around 10ppm. Just something to ponder and you may want to test your tap water for KH, GH, and PO4 before jumping into a RO/DI unit.

[oldhead]

That's true and the units can be pretty pricey. I just went and bought mine from Walmart at 68cents a gallon. Was hilarious to pull a pallet and shopping cart of 70 gallons through the store. My friend and I kept getting asked about it by customers so we started telling them it was for our bunker and meth lab as a joke. lol.

[kaybee]

...I use my tap water simply because it would be a large waste of money for me to go out and buy a RO/DI unit. My TDS is somewhere around 10ppm. Just something to ponder and you may want to test your tap water for KH, GH, and PO4 before jumping into a RO/DI unit.

The one thing about tap water, even 'quality' tap water, is there's no control over the composition of what is in that water (flucuations of compositions are allowable as long as they fall within certain thresholds or parameters, so tapwater composition can never be regarded as consistent). Also, there's no way to really know what that 10ppm is actually comprised of (there are definately things in tap water which one can't test for). Usually, cities publish annual water reports, and there's a lot of stuff in there that isn't nitrate or phosphate that one wouldn't want in a sensitive tank.

With RO/DI water one is assuring that impurities are not entering the system, and basically eliminating the unknowns. RO/DI water, however, is probably more recommended with reef tanks than FOWLR systems. If you had just fish, high quality tap water should be fine.

Also, even in a reef tank, your corals would let you know if something was wrong with the tap water.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Also, even in a reef tank, your corals would let you know if something was wrong with the tap water.

Again, I am one of the very lucky ones, I have nothing wrong with my tap water.

I think you may be misunderstanding me, I'm certainly not suggesting that being able to use tap water is normal, it is extremely rare, I happen to be one of those who is lucky enough to be able to. Also, I am not advocating the use of tap water for everyone, I'm simply putting it out there as something to be aware of.

[kaianuanu]

I agree completely with that.

Sure, you can make a tank with .5lbs live rock like you want to, but why would you? Live rock is the most important part of any saltwater tank. Your tank will be twice as hard to maintain with .5lbs live rock than it would with 1lb. That, and it will look very empty, not much room for aquascaping, and your bio-capacity will be severely decreased.

Here's my "recommended" equipment list for your tank-

-50lbs aragonite
-10lbs live sand
-at least 60lbs live rock
-Skimmer
-20-30 gallon sump
-Refugium of some sort
-A team of powerheads
-Heater x2 (one for water changes)
-Salt mix
-Refractometer
-RO/DI machine
-Lighting (depends on whether you are doing FOWLR or reef)
-Saltwater complete master test kits
-Books

Whatever money you save on Live rock now you'll spend later in maintenence costs. Like Cocoa said, you can get dead rock for $1 a pound.


hey are these supplies for a fowlr tank? if not can you post supplies for fowlr instead of reef

[cocoa_pleco]

nick hit it. the sump and refugium arent 100% needed, but are always a good idea

you need everything on his list for a fowlr, but you can use regular lighting for no corals

[kaianuanu]

whats a refrigium???

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

A refugium is an area of lower flow either in a sump or separate from the sump where generally sand, live rock rubble, and macro algae is kept. The sand and LR rubble are not found in all. The main benefit of a refugium is the production of copepods, amphapods, and isopods for the main tank. Many claim that they are also great for nitrate reduction, however they really are not great at this process, this is the least of their benefits. They do reduce nitrates to an extent however not to any extent that will rival a deep sand bed or sufficient live rock. They basically allow for a isolated area for the pod population to multiply free from predation.

[kaianuanu]

so what are the benefits of 'pods exept a food source for fish

[spudbuds]

Also, when the macro algea is lighted on a reverse cycle from the main display, it can help reduce the natural pH swing from day to night.

A great food source is their main benefit, but they are also good detrivores.

- Bill