5g nano SW questions?

[Doak6021]

This topic was in the regular saltwater topic so I decided to move it to the nano reef forum. Here is the rundown on the 5g nano SW project I plan to go with in about 2-3 months. I have already been through the bashing of trying to setup a 5g and not starting with a bigger tank. This 5g I have has the SUMP and mostly everything else needed for a Freshwater already in place. So converting to a SW will take time, know how, and money but it can be done. This is all the room my apartment has so this 5g is the only way.

5g aquarium
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635107
w/~2.0g SUMP

Screw in Bulb for light fixture
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18361/si1382997/cl0/coralifeminicompact5050lamp20watt

Rotating Powerhead
http://www.petguys.com/-097612032120.html

7-8 Pounds of LR
Sand
Heater
Bioballs(in SUMP)

Is this light strong enough to grow ANY types of coral?
I do not plan to grow coral immediately but planning for the future is always good.

Is a rotating powerhead more efficient for water flow than a regular powerhead?

Would this nano protein skimmer be a help?
http://www.aquariumguys.com/fissionskimmer.html

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I'd recommend against the Powersweep powerhead. I had one and the sweep part locked up after only 4 months. I would recommend you go with something like a Maxi-Jet 400 for that tank. That will give you all the flow you need. It's all about placement when it comes to powerheads.

You lighting will be enough to grow soft corals. You could grow some LPS corals, but I would recommend against those for a 5gal tank. LPS corals suck up the calcium and they have sweeper tentecals that will damage the other corals. I would suggest you look at doing mostly Zoanthids and Mushrooms in there. Green Star Polyps would look great in that tank as well. Most of the Leathers are going to get way too big for a Nano tank. Personally, I have Zoanthids, Mushrooms, PomPom Xenia and Green Star Polyps in my 2.5gal. As for growing corals in there, that is about all a nano marine tank is good for. There is only really 1 species of fish that I would even consider keeping in that size environment and that is a species of Goby that only gets to be about 1" in length. All other fish are going to require a larger volume of water and more space. Something else that is recommended by the expert reef keepers is that you get used to keeping corals first.

Definitely go with that skimmer, it is a great product and it will make keeping your nano tank much easier.

As you have also been told in the other thead, evaporation is your biggest enemy in a nano reef tank so it would probably be a good idea to keep a supply of buffered water on hand as well. I use buffered water to keep my tank topped up simply because that carbonate is used up with the formation of coralline algae. You soft corals won't really use it but the coralline does.

As for the bioballs in the sump, don't bother. They are nitrate factories and that is something you will not want in that small of a tank. Keeping your nano will be much easier if you do without them. All of your biological filtration will come from the live rock. As for physical filtration, that is where your clean-up crew comes in. Things like bristleworms are your best friend in a reef tank, they are known as detritivores. However, if you are not keeping fish, then there really is no need for somehting like that. At the most you would need something to take care of algae that shows up and that would be snails. If you can get you hands on a copy of the current issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist, there is an excellent article on Reef clean up crews in there. This month is part 1 and next month is part 2. Very very good article by an extremely knowledgeable and experienced hobbyist.

Hope this helps

[Fishguy2727]

I second the powersweep recommendation, go with something else. I have not heard of anyone who has had one long that actually kept working. There is a new Koralia nano powerhead out, may want to check that one out in addition to the one previously mentioned. Zoo Med also has a very small powerhead you may want to check out.

I would also not use bio-balls, they are becoming unfavored in general for the reason mentioned. Many people just use more live rock in place of bio-balls, this way you get more rock and more denitrification.

I have been talking to a guy who does a lot of reef work locally and he said that usually the tanks that crash after things were going perfectly fine did not have skimmers, so a small nano skimmer would be a very good idea.

[cocoa_pleco]

I'd recommend against the Powersweep powerhead. I had one and the sweep part locked up after only 4 months. I would recommend you go with something like a Maxi-Jet 400 for that tank. That will give you all the flow you need. It's all about placement when it comes to powerheads.



agreed, i was ready to buy a powersweep too, but lots of people said it locks up, making it useless

[TowBoater]

I have 2 powersweeps only because that is all my LFS carries. They work fine but I wouldn't get them for the "sweep" because that only lasts a little while and then they build up stuff and lock up but they still shoot out water fine.

[Doak6021]

Ok so let's talk about stocking options.

I've seen here that the only thing I would be able to stock in the 5g would be a goby.

If this is the case maybe I will have to hold off until I can get more space and put a 10 or 20g or maybe 100g in. I would not want to put a tank up just for corals. Although very nice thats just not for me.

Are there ANY other type of fish that would be ok in a 5g.
-How about damsels? I seen them in the LFS and they seem pretty small.
-Anthing at all?

[Halelorf]

Damsels get very aggresive as they age and will begin to harass any others. I wouldn't put one in a nano tank. Chromis would be good as they arn't as tempermental but they like to be in schools and your tank won't be big enough. I would say if you kept up with a good water change schedule you could pull off a false percula clown.

[squirt_12]

I would say that you should just stock it with snails and crabs, and after a while some shrimp. There are cool little shrimp. Like the sexy shrimp.

[kaybee]

...How about damsels? I seen them in the LFS and they seem pretty small...

Not all "small" damsels stay small. While some species max out at 2"-3", others get up to 6".

A small species damsel might work if it is the only occupant.

A single neon goby might be something to consider.

[Fishguy2727]

I would do a clown/coral goby. There are many species so lots of colors to pick from. And they all stay very small. If you can fit anything larger (even just a 10) do that. Even if you can't get the extra live rock or something it is more water to work with.

[Doak6021]

So a small percula clown might work?
If not, how about a small speicies damsel by itself?
If not, how about a small goby?

Thanks everyone for the input so far.

[TowBoater]

I say clowns need nothing smaller than a 10g. Maybe a pair of rusty gobies? They rarely get over an inch or a pair or neon gobies? Sea Life Inc. sells them in pairs.

[squirt_12]

I would only get a small goby. Here (http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/product_info.php?products_id=512&parent_category=4&category_search=61&root_parent_id=4) is a nice small goby that would work in your tank.

[TowBoater]

Here are a few things that would be OK in that tank...

http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=190

http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=147

http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=161

http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=148

http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=45

[coachfraley]

red headed and green banded gobies are also very small

[Doak6021]

Found this site that lists a number of the fish suggested to me by everyone.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15+2124&pCatId=2124

Which of these fish are compatable with each other. I would like to get 2-3(if possible) fish total.

Example combo: Green clown goby and a red striped goby
Example two: neon goby and a yellow clown goby.

Or do I have to get two of the same kind?

Don't worry i do not plan to get these fish soon. I just do not want to set up a tank and not be able to put fish in it.

[TowBoater]

I would not put two gobies in that small of a tank unless they are a pair. You will NOT be able to have 3 fish in that tank I don't think, 2 is really pushing it. That selection is for up to 20g as some of the clowns and such in there need 20g tanks. What you have is on the verge of being a pico, not a nano.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I wouldn't trust the stocking suggestions of LiveAquaria.com. They have great livestock and great products but they are way off in their max sizes and min tank sizes. Another thing you should notice is that even they say that the tank sizes for those fish are for 8gals and up. Here is the perfect example of why I don't trust LiveAquaria.com
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+2124+188&pcatid=188
That fish needs a minimum of a 4-6 inch substrate period, no way around it, they will not stay in the tank long without it and yet LiveAquaria recommends them for a 10gal tank.

[cocoa_pleco]

I wouldn't trust the stocking suggestions of LiveAquaria.com. They have great livestock and great products but they are way off in their max sizes and min tank sizes.

theyre crazy. They had yellow tangs as needing a 20g. worst one i ever found was for some saltwater fish (cant remember the name), and in their quick profile, it said 10g minimum, while the long description said 75g minimum, they need to get their sizes straight

EDIT- found a example, i would NEVER consider a fullgrown volitan to go in anything less than a 150g, yet they say 50g. i would only put a baby one in a 50g at most

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+36+279&pcatid=279

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Believe me, I contacted them about it.

[cocoa_pleco]

Believe me, I contacted them about it.

me too, i asked if they could change the YT's tank size min. to at least 75g, because at least 5 people a day will stick them in a 20g from seeing 20g, no response

[Doak6021]

Ok so after reading up and getting info from you guys I believe I will hold off on making my 5g a nano reef tank. My main problem is not being able to put fish in it. I think I would be able to make everything work but I would deff want some fish not just one.

Ok so maybe I should start a new thread but for now we will stay on this one.

How about a 20-25g. I just bought a hood(24 inch hood, 18 inch bulb), two HOB bio wheels, a heater and a couple air pumps for real real real cheap on ebay. All of the items are used but working. I got them for I think $6.50

Could I use the two biowheels on a 20-25g? Would this almost replace a SUMP?

What size powerhead(gph) would I need?

Could I house a nano protein skimmer, like the one I provided earlier in the thread, in a biowheel(if there was room)? Or would I have to get a HOB skimmer?

Could I house a heater in a biowheel(if room allowed)?

What kind of bulb would I need for LR only?
What kind of bulb would I need for LR and some soft corals?

Would a pair of percula clowns fit in this tank?

I will prob have more questions but I'll let everyone sink into this for now.

Thanks Everyone!

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Bio-wheels on a marine tank are a terrible thing. Bio-wheels are major nitrate producers and nitrates in a marine tank are a terrible thing. A Fish Only With Live Rock (FOWLR) setup does not have a huge light requirement, in fact you don't really need the light, the only thing the light will do is help with the coralline algae growth, and that isn't a bad thing at all. With just a regular fluorescent bulb you would be extrememly limited in the corals you could keep, but you could keep a couple of fish in there. I wouldn't go for more than a pair of Ocellaris clowns and one other small fish, maybe something like a Firefish.

[Doak6021]

How about just regular HOB power filters?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

As long as you don't run any media in them. The media in the filters is what creates the nitrate nightmare for a marine tank. All you need is Live Rock and water movement. On my first marine tank I had an Emperor 400 running and it was for the sole purpose of moving water around, nothing more. The live rock is home to all the bacteria you will need.

[spudbuds]

You can use the bio wheel filters, but you don't need their biological filtration capability like GB said. Just pull the bio-wheels off and use them as regular HOB filters. Sticking a heater in them is a good idea if you can find a heater small enough. Also, you could mount a little light over one or both of them and put some macro algae in it for a mini-refuge. Anything that adds water volume and movement is a good thing in a SW tank.

All that being said, I'd trade both filters for a HOB skimmer if you have the choice. You'll get many more benefits from the skimmer.

- Bill

[Doak6021]

Ok so... Here is what I am getting from all of this.

In SW tanks, the LR does everything you need for filtering. All that has to be present is enough LR and enough water flow.

The two main purposes of a SUMP in a SW tank are to add more water to the total volume of water(helps keep nitrates down) and to house tank equipment(heater, skimmer, LR).

So...
-25g tank
-Sand(not sure how much)
-40lbs LR
-2 powerheads on opposite sides of tank
-HOB protein skimmer
-heater
-hood with light

Would I be on the right track for a no coral SW tank?

If I wanted to go for corals I would just need to upgrade the light?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

SOunds like you have the right idea. The light you mentioned would be ok for Mushrooms and not much else. You would need to go with at least Power Compacts to keep more corals.

[Fishguy2727]

You can use the Biowheel filters, just don't use the cartridges. The Biowheels themselves do not cause nitrate problems because they do not trap debris. That debris is exactly what causes excess nitrate production in ANY filter that traps debris AND is not properly maintained (you need to remove that debris frequently enough so that it does not break down into nitrate). But the live rock should provide all the biological filtration you need, including denitrification. Which Biowheel filters did you get exactly?

On my 29 I am getting the 65-gallon Super Skimmer by Coralife. If you choose a HOB skimmer you need to be very picky about it and double check it with a couple forums and talk to people who actually have it to see how good it is. There are a lot of bad ones that are just a waste of money.

I would use a glass canopy, not one of those hoods with the ligfht built-in. This way you can use any light and upgrade as needed.

I would recommend Coralife's T5 fluorescent fixture. They are relatively cheap and T5s are great and would allow for many types of corals.

Koralia powerheads are a great option. They have a magnet mount and provide better flow because it is not just directed in one stream but spreads out because the whole powerhead is grated. They are also a relatively cheap option.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Actually, I think you will find that the biowheels are the source of the high nitrate problems in a marine tank. That is the very reason Wet/Dry filters have fallen out of favor in the Marine hobby. The biowheel is in contact with 20,000 times the amount of oxygen the bacteria in the water is because of the air around it. That additional oxygen makes the biowheels a highly efficient biological filter for nitrification, and if nitrification was all we were interested in then it would be fine, however we are also interested in de-nitrification. Live Rock is not necessarily a highly efficient bio-filter based on rate of nitrification and de-nitrification, but like a canister filter it requires a larger amount of bacteria to do the job. If the bio-wheels are added then the nitrification process is sped up and the de-nitrification process can't keep up. It is simply more nitrification than is needed and therefore creates excess nitrate in the water.

[Fishguy2727]

Yes, but those bacteria can only process what ammonia and nitrite are present. If they are not there, the nitrifying bacteria will not and can not produce any more nitrate. Once you have enough nitrifiyng bacteria (ammonia and nitrite stay at 0.0) you have all you will have. The difference is the debris being trapped and breaking down into ammonia and feeding the nitrogen cycle. If you don't trap the debris (which Biowheels do not) or if you remove that debris enough, the nitrate concentration will remain low.

Bioballs and other wet/dry systems have lost support because in addition to the very efficient atmosphere-exposed media for nitrifying bacteria, they also trap debris. Without removing this debris often enough (which is possible, but not usually done) the nitrate concentration will rise. As with any filter though, if properly maintained (remove that debris often enough) they should not cause problems. Many are replacing the bioballs with live rock so they still get the nitrification, but even more live rock and denitrification (although I would not think you could get much denitrification with all that oxygen and air around).

[Doak6021]

I agree fishguy. I never understood why people always downed bioballs. Now I understand. Although they provide more surface area for the nitrification process they also give opportunity for debri to build thus creating more ammonia. This avoidable adding of ammonia then turns into nitrates giving you a "nitrate factory." That makes a lot of sense now.

As far as biowheels and HOB filters. Will a nano protein skimmer fit into one of these?

The 2 biowheels I am getting are Penguin bio wheel 170 type.

[Fishguy2727]

I would go with a larger capacity skimmer. As stated I will be using one for 65-gallons on my 29.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Something that you have failed to take into accout is the rate of nitrification versus the rate of de-nitrification. De-nitrification happens slower. Here's the whole issue though, in Live Rock you get more bacteria then you do on a bio-wheel so that it can process the same amount of ammonia and nitrite, this is the natural process of the ocean, adding the biowheel to that process simply process the ammonia and nitrite faster thus creating an increase in nitrate, it's not just debris that is trapped in filter pads that is responsible, it is the highly efficient bacteria doing it. It is a balanced system in nature, by adding the bio-wheel to the mix, you are throwing that balance off because of the increased rate of nitrification, now, if de-nitrification was an aerobic process then there wouldn't be issue, but it isn't and the anaerobic de-nitrification process cannot keep pace with the faster rate of nitrification in those bio-wheels, when this happens there is a "backlog" ,if you will, of nitrate to process. By adding the bio-wheel to the process, you make your anaerobic bacteria work harder than you need to. The addition of the bio-wheel is a redundant and unnecessary thing and is just a plain bad idea for marine tanks.

[TowBoater]

^^^CORRECT!!! *bows down*thumbs2:

[Fishguy2727]

No. Once the tank is cycled and you have enough nitrifying bacteria, you will NOT get any more nitrification. Them doing it faster just means you need fewer of them to do it in the same amount of time (hence the less surface area needed). If the ammonia and nitrite are staying at 0.0 it is impossible for the nitrifying bacteria to process any more or to do it any faster. They are limited by the amount of ammonia and nitrite present. They CANNOT produce any more nitrate any faster without the supply of their food. The amount of nitrate produced is directly related to the amount of ammonia available. No matter how much flow or oxygen the nitrifying bacteria have, they can only process the ammonia present.

In order for what you are describing to work the nitrifying bacteria would have to be working at a certain pace, regardless of the ammonia present. In this case ammonia would build up and not nitrate because they are working more slowly to produce that nitrate. But it doesn't work like that. You get the exact amount of nitrifiyng bacteria needed to immediately consume any and all ammonia and nitrite available.

For example: if you have 5 "units" of ammonia produced every day, that will be broken down as it is produced. Whether you have one "unit" of nitrifying bacteria on a Biowheel which individually will process it faster, or need five "units" of submerged nitrifying bacteria to do it because they will be processing it more slowly (and it will happen in the same amount of time either way) it will be processed as it becomes available.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I just wanted to post this as additional information for anyone reading this thread. I figured I'd simply post the answer I received when I asked a question about Wet/Dry filters on another forum. The guy who gave me this answer is a 30 year vetern of aquarium keeping, most of it with marine tanks and he is considered to be one of the country's leading experts on marine aquariums. Here is his explaination of why a Wet/Dry application of any kind is a bad idea for a marine tank. The specific question dealt with bio-balls, but the same applies to bio-wheels.

"With regards to NNR (Natural Nitrate Reduction), the live rock in a given system will not be able to keep up with the bio-balls. I know, that sounds counter-intuitive, right? If the rock could handle it without the bio-balls, it should be able to handle it with the bio-balls, right? Well, not necessarily. Whe it comes to nitrate reduction, and the nitrogen cycle in general, its all about nutrient proximity. In the bio-film on the rocks and in the rocks, you'll have aerobes in the upper layers of film and rock, and anaerobes in the lower layers of film and rock. As the aerobes seize the ammonia and nitrite, they pass their waste right along to the next guy in line, who consumes it and passes it along (ultimately, it is hoped, as free nitrogen). When you put a wet/dry into the mix, that changes things considerably. The rock films get much less ammonia and nitrite to process, most of it being sucked up by the wet/dry, which is far more efficient. But, the wet/dry is VERY poor in anaerobes, meaning that the end product is more nitrate and less free nitrogen. So, now you have nitrate floating around in the water column with no practical expectation of it reaching the anaerobes on the rock in the lower layers of the film and rock itself. This is the theory, and, in practice, it proves itself out."


EDIT: Since I see that we posted at the same time, I'll simply say this and leave it here. I used to think about this issue the same way you do Fishguy, but what you would think would be the case just simply does not play out in reality. The simple fact of the matter is, that reef keepers out there have tested it and found the use of Wet/Dry filtration period to be a bad idea. Weather that is just using bio-wheels or using bio-balls, in the end, almost all eventually remove them becuase they cause more problems then they are worth. You can go on thinking that using the bio-wheels alone is a good idea, but the experience of hundreds and even thousands of reef keepers has already proven otherwise.

[Fishguy2727]

But he is missing an important part of the puzzle, the debris that causes 'nitrate factories'.

The nitrate will diffuse into the water, whether it is produced in the wet/dry or in the rock. If the flow is enough to move enough water into the live rock to be processed by anaerobic denitrifying bacteria (and not too much flow so you do actually get anaerobic bacteria) it will be processed. The bacteria do not 'hand off' the nitrate molecules to eachother.

In order to prove your point right there would have to be people out there who properly maintain their wet/dry filters (remove all debris before it is broken down to ammonia) and still have the same nitrate production as neglected wet/dry systems with the debris in and breaking down. You would also have to find examples of people who neglect submerged filters (never remove the debris) and do not have elevated nitrate levels. These two things would prove it is the wet/dry itself and independent of debris collection.

Either way, as I stated before, the live rock should be enough to do ALL the nitrification so a Biowheel is not needed.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

No he isn't. Have you seen a marine tank in opperation using a Wet/Dry trickle filter? I have, my LFS had a 240 on one for a couple of years and removed it. I saw that filter just before a water change and it didn't have any debris stuck in it. They maintained the filter properly and they still had elevated nitrate levels all the time. They have long since ceased the use of that filter and have gone to a straight sump.

Advising someone to keep the biowheels on their biowheel filter for a marine tank is just plain bad advice. There's a lot more experiencial evidence out there proving that fact then you may care to admit, but it is out there, believe me, I've been reading it for the last 3 years.

[Fishguy2727]

I already stated the live rock should be more than enough and that the Biowheel is unnecessary, it is just the reasoning behind any wet/dry being a nitrate factory that does not add up.

How often were they cleaning out the wet/dry?
What was the nitrate concentration before and after the wet/dry was removed?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

They cleaned the Wet/Dry out on a weekly basis, the bioload of the tank was not heavy. I don't know the exact concentrations, but I do know that the tank has been much more stable since then. The owner told me his nitrates are staying at 0 now where as before the switch, they were about 5-10.

Look, if you don't want to take the explanation of someone who has far more knowledge of the subject than you, then I'd suggest you do some reading here (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/filtration.php) on just how this whole thing works. Maybe then you will understand that bio-wheels on reef tanks are not simply unnecessary, they are a bad idea.

[Doak6021]

To me it seems like that although we think LR gets rid of all the ammonia and nitrites in the water it actually doesn't. B/c without ammonia there can be no nitrates. I understand that there is a balance. Biowheels get ammonia to nitrate faster than LR. Even still, the end result would be the same amount of nitrates.

The only thing that seems to make sense for the other arguement is that there is more free nitrogen with LR. With the biowheel having access to all the oxygen it immediately converts nitrite(NO2) to nitrate(NO3) leaving less free nitrogen. BUT, I was under the impression that there was no way nitrite/ammonia could be converted to free nitrogen and oxygen.

Great debate/discussion tho. Very informative. Play nice

I have bioballs in my FW aquarium b/c i think faster conversion of ammonia/nitrite is more important than nitrate. And that is probably perfectly correct b/c I am dealing with FW not SW.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

To me it seems like that although we think LR gets rid of all the ammonia and nitrites in the water it actually doesn't. B/c without ammonia there can be no nitrates. I understand that there is a balance. Biowheels get ammonia to nitrate faster than LR. Even still, the end result would be the same amount of nitrates. That is the case for all biofilteration, marine or not. Ammonia has to be present, but it is only present long enough to get from the source to the bacteria where it is instantly converted. The amount of ammonia that is actually in the water column is so miniscule that it is undetectable to standard test kits. You would need an ultra sensitive commercial test kit to even detect it.


I have bioballs in my FW aquarium b/c i think faster conversion of ammonia/nitrite is more important than nitrate. And that is probably perfectly correct b/c I am dealing with FW not SW. That is true in a FW tank, but in a Marine environment, nitrates, while not as toxic as nitrites and ammonia, are still toxic to marine organisms and at much lower concentrations then in FW. For this reason, it is just as important to get rid of nitrates as it is the other 2.

[TowBoater]

Guys, ILMGB has facts that are way past your own. What you need to do is get over it. Fishguy, I know you won't admit you are wrong like you always do but just don't lead people in the wrong direction just for your pride.

[Fishguy2727]

The part that makes sense and may or may may not explain it all is that with only live rock the same nitrate is being produced, but being dealt with right there, so you are just not picking it up on the test kit. With a Biowheel the nitrate has to travel through the water to get to the anaerobic bacteria so you do detect the nitrate between those two steps.

Again, as I have stated repeatedly now, Biowheels in a sw tank are unnecessary and if you have enouhg live rock it should be more than enough to do all nitrification and denitrification.

I am not questioning any one person's facts here. I am simply questioning the concept and logic behind the explanation, as I do with everything. I take what I hear and think about it, I do not just accept it as undeniable fact. I have talked to many people who have more experience (in years) than me, but are stuck in their ways. And even the most experienced experts can be wrong as things change and more knowledge is gained. I think that regurgitating misconceptions and misinformation is one of the worst things about this hobby. Many of those things if you just think about it and question it, break down every step and process piece by piece and ask if that really makes sense, you will find that a lot of the information out there does not make sense, but keeps getting posted and regugritated because some experts believe it or because personal experience does not disprove it.

Thanks for all the information so far. I will check out that link. Any other good links on this in particular?

[TowBoater]

Ignore my above post, I am gonna have a mod delete it.

[spudbuds]

Great discussion guys! Very well thought out posts without the childish bickering. I learned a lot.

Thanks,
- Bill

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Again, as I have stated repeatedly now, Biowheels in a sw tank are unnecessary and if you have enouhg live rock it should be more than enough to do all nitrification and denitrification.

I am not questioning any one person's facts here. I am simply questioning the concept and logic behind the explanation, as I do with everything. I take what I hear and think about it, I do not just accept it as undeniable fact. I have talked to many people who have more experience (in years) than me, but are stuck in their ways. And even the most experienced experts can be wrong as things change and more knowledge is gained. I think that regurgitating misconceptions and misinformation is one of the worst things about this hobby. Many of those things if you just think about it and question it, break down every step and process piece by piece and ask if that really makes sense, you will find that a lot of the information out there does not make sense, but keeps getting posted and regugritated because some experts believe it or because personal experience does not disprove it.

Thanks for all the information so far. I will check out that link. Any other good links on this in particular?

I understand your position on the biowheels and I do agree with it, however I would encourage you to consider the possibility that "unecessary" is not quite far enough when it comes to Reef and FOWLR applications. As Kieron Dodds pointed out, what you may consider as the logical progression does not necessarily play out in reality. While the biology of nitrification and de-nitrification is the same in saltwater, the application of it and how it plays out is slightly different. What is sufficient for FW is not for SW.

I think when it all boils down to it, we are almost in complete agreement on this subject, the only difference that I think we have is that I do not leave Bio-wheels as simply unnecessary in Reef and FOWLR applications, I believe they are a plain bad idea, and I honestly think that as you get further into this side of the hobby you will likely agree.

I totally agree with you that there are far too many unquestioned misconceptions in this hobby and far too many "experienced" hobbyists that do not question them or change with the added information that is being brought to light.

[Fishguy2727]

Sounds good. If you get any more information on this specific subject please share.

[Doak6021]

Keeping fish/aquariums as a hobby/life is awesome! I leave it at that.

[cocoa_pleco]

Great discussion guys! Very well thought out posts without the childish bickering. I learned a lot.

Thanks,
- Bill

gotta agree! :)