Salt and Africans

[Drip Loop]

Question: Should I add salt to my cichlid tank?

Here are some parameters.

KH - 10ish
GH - 15+
PH - 8.2 consistent

I was under the impression that since I had plenty of GH that salt is not necessary.

The reason I ask is because I also have a pleco in the tank and I know they do not really like salt. I have had most of these fish saltless for quite awhile and none seem to be too upset about it. If it is harmless to the pleco than I dont mind adding it I just dont see the point. My water has plenty of minerals in it. If I need to add it than I will, just wanna get some more advice first.

All advice appreciated.

[fins_n_fur]

Why do you think you need to add salt to the tank?

[kaybee]

Salt (NaCl) is not required.

[Drip Loop]

Well, this all stemmed from a conversation I had in a LFS today. I was trying to help a guy that clearly had limited knowledge and was about to make a bad purchace. He had a list of 15 africans (mostly mbuna) that he was going to add to his "planted" 30 gallon tank. We started talking and he was taking my advice up until the point I mentioned that I dont use salt for my cichlids. I could sorta tell he questioned my knowledge after I mentioned that cause he was told that they would only show their best colors with salt in the water. I am sure he is not entirely incorrect but it was definitely worth a little investigation after the conversation. So that brings us to now. Just trying to get clarification. Thank you

[smcurry83]

I don't use salt, and every other person I've talked to with an african tank doesn't use it either. I just use kent cichlid chemitsry and buffer...

[greatXpectations]

so am i wasting my money? my LFS (the good one) has me using Seachem Malawian buffer and chiclid salt per the directions on the label. everyone in my tank seems happy, and are starting to show more colors (all relatively young)

Now im confused too :confused:

[Drip Loop]

Well, what is your local tap water like? If it is hard water, you may not need it. If you have soft water than obviously these buffers are worthwhile. My local tap water is really odd. It comes out at a PH of over 8 but a KH of around 3. The GH though is around 15. It may be from the underground limestone aquifers I am not sure. I just add a little baking soda.

[greatXpectations]

well, i dont have the test kits for the hardness, but he said he knows the water in my area and recommends both products. PH out of the tap is 7.4 (just tested it) He said as long as im using the buffers and doing regular water changes ill never have to worry about KH or GH levels...

[kaybee]

so am i wasting my money? my LFS (the good one) has me using Seachem Malawian buffer and chiclid salt per the directions on the label...well, i dont have the test kits for the hardness, but he said he knows the water in my area and recommends both products. PH out of the tap is 7.4 (just tested it) He said as long as im using the buffers and doing regular water changes ill never have to worry about KH or GH levels...

It wouldn't hurt to get KH/GH test kits, source water differs region to region, and it's always good to have an idea of what your (before & after) parameters are if you're using additives.

Wasting money, probably not, but there are definately less expensive ways to achieve the same goals (baking soda/sodium bicarbonate to achieve target pH and kH levels; epsom salt/magnesium sulfate to increase gH). You get a LOT more 'product' for the same cost.

Alternatively, lower stable parameters seem to work just as well as optimal levels recommended for Rift Lake set ups. There are some who would say 'optimal' parameter levels play a much larger role when keeping wild caught african cichlids.

[ladyoutlaw50]

I have always used a cichlid buffer -- I normally use it after a complete vacuum.

[SW Addict]

With and of the Rift Lake cichlids the addtion of simple NaCl is not what you need to add. Aquarium salt will not provide it all. The Rift Lakes of Eastern Africa do have a high concentration of salt, however, like marine salt, it is much more complex than simple NaCl. The minerals that are contained in Rift Lake salt do in fact help the cichlid's overall health. I used Seachems, Rift Lake Salt in my tank and shortly after I began using it, the color of my fish improved greatly, the improved diet made them pop even more. There are elements in the Rift Lake salt that will help you fish live healthier lives. Personally, I would use it.

[SW Addict]

Ok, for some reasone the edit didn't work. Anyway, as an addendum to my last post, one example of an element contained in the rift lake waters that is benificial, is Magnessium. The Mg helps with aid in digestion. While Mg is an element that can be obtained from Epsom Salt, there are a large number of other elements in the water that also help in different areas. There are some studies that indicate that in order for Malawi cichlids to live to their full potential, they should have these elements in their environment.

[Drip Loop]

So are you saying that with a GH of over 15 I am still lacking the appropriate magnesium for the fish? Cause I know epsom salt raises GH am I right?

[SW Addict]

GH doesn't tell you what is in your water, it simply tells you that you that something is in your water. Any dissolved solid is going to add to you General Hardness. General Hardness is almost a useless reading. There are some areas of the hobby where it is useful, however in keeping Rift Lake cichlids it is not.

[Drip Loop]

Hmm, I thought GH was a reflection of your calcium/magnesium and KH was a measure of carbonate hardness. Guess I was wrong.

Either way, since my PH is 8.2 and the buffer is designed to raise the PH to that range, how would I know how much to add, and also how would it effect a pleco who is already at a PH he doesnt necessarily prefer.

[The Wedge]

I use Seachems cichlid lake salt or rift lake salt...my fish are happy with deep coloration. Yes it is expensive it will probably bee 40 dollars a year at the rate I use it with water changes.

[SW Addict]

Your pleco isn't going to like it that's for sure. It's your call. You don't have to use it. Personally if it was my tank the Pleco wouldn't even be in there becuase of the drastic difference in water reqirements, not to mention he is a huge bioload in a tank that already houses high bioload fish.

Ca and Mg are only part of what GH measures, it reads a lot of other things in there as well. If that is all GH measured then a GH test kit would be an essential tool in the Reef keeping hobby as those 2 elements are 2 of the most important for coral health, however, it is not a tool that is even used in Reef keeping. I asked my LFS about it one day, this LFS focuses completely on Marine creatures and Rift Lake Cichlids, and their response was to go to the shelf, pick up the 3 GH test kits that where there and give them to me because they were so useless to them.

[Drip Loop]

What algae eaters can you recommend for a 125g cichlid tank? I have no problem putting this pleco into my community tank really.

[kaybee]

So are you saying that with a GH of over 15 I am still lacking the appropriate magnesium for the fish?

Water analysis of Lake Malawi water samples have shown magnesium levels between4.7mg and 8.8mg/l (Lake Tanganyika's magnesium levels are even higher, about 4x-9x that of Lake Malawi). It may be difficult to gauge what the "appropriate magnesium" levels 'should be' or are required in an aquarium settting.

Having tried Rift Lake products ('salts', buffers, trace elements, etc), home-made baking soda/epsom salt receipes, and straight tap water I could not detect any difference in regards to african cichlid appearance or behavior (though the tap water I'm using is hard Florida tap water). Source water varies, so I could see where products an additives would definately have a role in many tanks.

[greatXpectations]

ok, well ive decided that im going to continue what im doing in my tank, because they seem to enjoy it. as far as plecos go, i have a bristlenose in my African tank, he hasnt been there long but seems to be ok. Ive read alot on them being in these tanks and it seems to be a 50/50 so i went for it...

[Drip Loop]

Water analysis of Lake Malawi water samples have shown magnesium levels between4.7mg and 8.8mg/l (Lake Tanganyika's magnesium levels are even higher, about 4x-9x that of Lake Malawi). It may be difficult to gauge what the "appropriate magnesium" levels 'should be' or are required in an aquarium settting.

Having tried Rift Lake products ('salts', buffers, trace elements, etc), home-made baking soda/epsom salt receipes, and straight tap water I could not detect any difference in regards to african cichlid appearance or behavior (though the tap water I'm using is hard Florida tap water). Source water varies, so I could see where products an additives would definately have a role in many tanks.


Im also in Florida. My water readings are really odd. Low KH, high PH and high GH.

[The Wedge]

ok, well ive decided that im going to continue what im doing in my tank, because they seem to enjoy it. as far as plecos go, i have a bristlenose in my African tank, he hasnt been there long but seems to be ok. Ive read alot on them being in these tanks and it seems to be a 50/50 so i went for it...
The bristlenose will be okay unless you put salt in the tank. Cichlid salt resulted in my Clown Plecos death (which I shouldn't of had it in the cichlid tank in the first place...I got bad information)...it burned him...I only use Synodontis species in my Cichlid tanks since they are from the same ecosystem and water conditions. Plecos hate salt...It makes them more susceptible to disease and burns there skin since they lack scales.

[Drip Loop]

Im still curious to know what algae eaters thrive under higher PH conditions. There has to be something.

[Fishguy2727]

"Plecos hate salt...It makes them more susceptible to disease and burns there skin since they lack scales."

Even though they have thick, armor-like scales?

There is a lot of myth about salt and medications with certain species. In my experience I see no problems with most of the 'sensitive' species when mediations and salt are used. FIY: Petsmart salts ALL of their tanks. So anything you see in there can handle salt. Medications are the same. These 'sensitive' species (plecos, cories, loaches, etc.) all have been just as hardy to salt and medications in my experience. It also does not make sense that the ones that lack scales and the ones with armor-like scales are sensitive. Salt and medications enter the body through the gills, not the skin. So no matter what scales are or are not there, it gets in.

As far as salt and African rift lake cichlids go: as stated the chemistry of these lakes is unique to that of any other freshwater in the world. There are many more elements in the water altering the chemistry significantly. The cichlid lake salts are a great way to mimic these natural conditions which can help them (even captive bred) do even better. Depending on your source water this may or may not make a significant difference. I suggest simply trying it out. Use a bottle's worth and see if it makes a difference. If you see no difference, just don't buy another. Simple as that.

I would not put a pleco in an African cichlid tank. Mbunas love algae, so let them graze on it. It is a very natural food source and behavior for them. This can help keep them occupied and full between feedings which can help reduce aggression. I would just manually clean the front glass and let the other sides and decor get some greeen algae growing. For other types of Africans I would simply manually keep the glass clean.

We need to always do the best we reasonably can for our fish. So keep trying new things to make sure they aren't a good way for you to improve the well-being of your fish. A bottle of Cichlid Lake Salt should not cost more than $15 and could be a great way to improve their lives.

[The Wedge]

Fishguy2727
I was told this by someone in the hobby for 33 years maybe he is wrong...but he doesn't have to try so hard to prove his point or convince people all the time (My slip about the scales thing he didn't mention that...it was my own goof). Bottom line you are right when you say Plecos shouldn't be in African tanks. It doesn't mean people can't have success either. The smaller species like Clowns and BN have always had problems when my friends and I have tried to mimic the rift lakes (maybe Common Plecos are hardier)...I am going to have to bow out now...have a nice day PEACE

[greatXpectations]

Well, my bristlenose is now in my community tank, and seems much happier...i toss a small amount of aquarium salt in that tank during major water changes but not much...

Im going to continue to use the salt and buffer because i have noticed brighter colors since i started using them.

[SW Addict]

Source water varies, so I could see where products an additives would definately have a role in many tanks.

I definitely agree here. The water I use has a KH of <1 and a GH of 1 with a pH of 6.4 out of the tap so needless to say, I need to buffer my water a lot more than some. :) I figure rather than go through that trouble, I'll just stick to keeping my Discus. LOL