SAE or Oto?

[PUNISHER VETTE]

I need something other then my shrimp to help control my algae. I think it's mostly just fuzz algae but i did have a scare of black brush so that could always pop up again.

I'm pretty sure the reason is my high phosphate levels that never seem to go down even with weekly water changes. Should i get some fish to help out or should i buy some granules to add to my filter to eliminate the phosphate to see if that helps?

It's a 110g with plenty of room for fish but I'd rather put in fish i'd like instead of algae eating fish unless they look okay and don't get overly big.

[Annamo25]

Have you thought about snails? We have a gold and a blue. They do a great job in our 20gal!

[Sasquatch]

Have you considered a bristlenose pleco? They stay fairly small (4"-5") and tend to hide a lot, so you probably won't see them all that much. All they really need to be happy is some wood and good conditions.

As for your phosphates, have you considered cutting down on the dosing? Don't know if you're dosing NPK individually or with an all in one fert, but it's an option.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Have you thought about snails? We have a gold and a blue. They do a great job in our 20gal!


Not much of a snail person....

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Have you considered a bristlenose pleco? They stay fairly small (4"-5") and tend to hide a lot, so you probably won't see them all that much. All they really need to be happy is some wood and good conditions.

As for your phosphates, have you considered cutting down on the dosing? Don't know if you're dosing NPK individually or with an all in one fert, but it's an option.

It's a highly planted tank if i didn't mention that above.

I think the phosphates got there by some Seachem Neutral pH powder that was phosphate based. I have phosphate fertilizers but have never used it since my levels have always been so high.

Nitrates are kept around 10ppm or less but the plants use up a lot of those. Lights are on a 12hour schedule but i'm going to drop that down to 10. And the CO2 is on about 2bubbles per second...don't know what that is in ppm though.

[smaug]

You cant go wrong with SAE,2 would be great for your tank.They are voracious algae eaters,better at all algae control with the exception of the stuff that gets on glass.Make sure they are true SAE there is a big difference between that and what is called a flying fox.

[Fishalicious]

I love SAE's ... and your tank is large enough...they are busy with algae non stop all day but also really need it so be ready to supplement their diet when the algae is gone...you can see my cute guys in POTM this month. They are jumpy so make sure you have a good lid on the tank. Also definately get 2 or more they love being together.

[krisco]

Yeah, I'd say SAE. Kept in schools, alone they aren't as efficient and can get a little rowdy. Plus, oto's are a little more touchy to water conditions and with your recent problems i would not want to put an oto in there. i would also try to limit the phosphates a little, of course being mindful of copper with your shrimp. Something in the filter, just little to see what happens

[Drip Loop]

My heavy planted tank has otos and cherry shrimp. Between the two of them, I have zero algae anywhere. Otos wont eat the circular green algae, but they love to clean plants. I had a SAE but the tank I kept him in had a PH of over 8 so he didnt do well. He has since been transferred to an outdoor pond and is very happy. otos and cherrys are my suggestion


As a side note I would like to thank Algenco for the fantastic shrimps!

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

PV, your best option is to actually find out the source of the algae and prevent it. Algae is not a problem in and of itself, it is a symptom of a problem. If you are having that much of a problem with it you may have to many nutrients or not enough CO2 or too much light for what you have with those other 2. What is your dosing routine? (What are you dosing, how much, and how often?)

[PUNISHER VETTE]

PV, your best option is to actually find out the source of the algae and prevent it. Algae is not a problem in and of itself, it is a symptom of a problem. If you are having that much of a problem with it you may have to many nutrients or not enough CO2 or too much light for what you have with those other 2. What is your dosing routine? (What are you dosing, how much, and how often?)


I'm dosing seachem iron and flourish every other week, along with nitrates, trace, and potassium in a dry fertilizer. All every two weeks now with weekly water changes of 40-50%

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

How much of the dry ferts are you adding? What is your CO2 concentration?

[Evil Slimy]

If you are at around 3wpg you may not be fertilizing often enough. If one of the nutrients is used up before the others (ie nitrate is usually used up quickly), plants won't be able to take advantage of the rest of the fertilizers, but algae will.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

for my 110g i'm dosing 1/2tsp trace, .75 tsp nitrates, 1tbl potassium

That brings my nitrates up from around 0 to about 10ppm


and i have no clue what my CO2 is at ppm wise. I'd say about 30ppm since my pH at night rises from around 7-7.8.

[digital3]

...and i have no clue what my CO2 is at ppm wise. I'd say about 30ppm since my pH at night rises from around 7-7.8.

low/unstable Co2 will definitely cause Algae woes. Getting a drop checker and using 4dkh water will give you a better gauge as to your Co2 levels.

[LosC]

sae's are very unfaithful algae eaters, themore fish food they eat the less algae they eat. Oto's are good algae eaters but they tend to be short lived. Seriously, a pack of snails will get that algae under control. I have pond snails and trumpet snails, although im not a snail person and I accidentally got them in my tank, they do an awesome job on the algae. I barely notice my pond snails but the trumpet snails are annoying, they produce dozens and dozens of baby trumpets at a time. On a boring day I've counted over 30 baby trumpet snails in my 20g substrate. I prefer the pond snails much better. Amano shrimp are second to a huge pack of snails in my book

[Evil Slimy]

sae's are very unfaithful algae eaters, themore fish food they eat the less algae they eat.
This is different form my experiences. I can see how it could happen if they are overfed, but the two sae I have seem to be grazing the whole day, on moss, algae, fish food, veggies... They eat every waking moment.

I would first ID the type of algae you have. No algae eater eats all types of algae, so it would be useful to have a confirmed ID before you decide on a specie versus the other.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

If one of the nutrients is used up before the others (ie nitrate is usually used up quickly), plants won't be able to take advantage of the rest of the fertilizers, but algae will.
Respectfully, this isn't correct. The only way plants will not be able to take advantage of fertilizers is if there is not enough CO2. Plants can use one element even if another is not present, this is how plants end up with nutrient deficiencies.

[Evil Slimy]

Actually I don't think it's incorrect. If for example, you removed po4 from your dosing you'd notice uptake of all other nutrients to slow down. But it's sleepy time. I'll type more tomorrow.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

If you statement is correct then there would be no such thing as a plant having a single nutirent deficiency, they would show the signs of all of them, however that is not the case. I can have a plant that is short on only potassium, or Iron, orboron, or any number of different nutrients.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Also wanted to add, if that statement is true, then every time you have a nutrient deficiency in one element then you would also be over run with algae at the same time, however that is not the case. My 125 had a potassium deficiency at one point but there was not a spot of algae in the tank, why? Simple, the plants were still using the rest of the nutrients. I increased the amount of potassium I was dosing and the problem was solved. I strongly suspect the answer to PV's problem lies in a lack CO2.

[smaug]

I agree with ILMGB on his points.In the past my plants have suffered from many single point deficiency's,all of which have been remedied.I do not agree with the conclusion of ,if you have algae in your tank you must have a problem.Having algae does not necessarily mean a problem at all,algae is a natural conclusion in most tanks,I have very small amounts of it as has every tank I have ever seen.Unless PV has large amounts of it I say algae eaters of some sort, be it ottos or sae are a very logical solution.I say this as a plant/fish keeper who uses no injected co2 at all.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

I'll pick up a CO2 test kit today at the LFS if i go....it's raining and i don't want to get my car wet :(

[Evil Slimy]

His problem could very well be lack of co2. I'm not arguing that.

I don't want to derail the thread to much, but you can look at this map and read the blurb on the right side as an example. Or search tom barr's site for similar information, or look at steve dixon articles.

http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/aqua/fertilizers/map.htm

Plant nutrients are not like cheeseburger, coke, desserts for you. Uptake of one nutrient is dependent on uptake of another nutrient or more, that's just how plants work. And in fact that's why deficiencies are so easily misinterpreted. They hardly ever show up only one at a time and several of them show the same symptoms.

[smaug]

I do believe the point that is being made to you by myself and GB is that we have both experienced single deficiency's,I have experienced it with potassium at one point and nitrates as of late .It is not rare at all to be deficient with one nutrient and still have very good growth.You may not have found this to be so in your experiences but I have.I don't think this derails the thread at all,it adds to PBS options and increases everyones knowledge.

[Evil Slimy]

When I read his post I used the E.I. dosing schedule as a reference. Following it, it seems that with 3wpg and co2 injection he has a high tech tank, but he is dosing on a low tech/low light schedule. That was the basis of my thinking.

Basically, the reason I mentioned lack of fertilizers is because with 3wpg he is dosing very rarely compared to the E.I. dosing method. I mentioned derailing in the sense that this shouldn't be a thread about whether nutrient uptake reates are dependent on each other or not and I don't want to go down that path too far here.

I'm not arguing with anyone in terms of a possible solution. I think everyone offered viable solutions that are worth considering. I'm just trying to give him more options. If controlling and fixing co2 does not solve his problem, I would take a look at nutrient availability and switch to E.I. dosing for three to four weeks to see if things improve.

[smaug]

When I read his post I used the E.I. dosing schedule as a reference. Following it, it seems that with 3wpg and co2 injection he has a high tech tank, but he is dosing on a low tech/low light schedule. That was the basis of my thinking.

Basically, the reason I mentioned lack of fertilizers is because with 3wpg he is dosing very rarely compared to the E.I. dosing method. I mentioned derailing in the sense that this shouldn't be a thread about whether nutrient uptake reates are dependent on each other or not and I don't want to go down that path too far here.

I'm not arguing with anyone in terms of a possible solution. I think everyone offered viable solutions that are worth considering. I'm just trying to give him more options. If controlling and fixing co2 does not solve his problem, I would take a look at nutrient availability and switch to E.I. dosing for three to four weeks to see if things improve.
that kind of advise is certainly welcome by all,plant troubles can certainly be tricky to diagnose at times.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

No test kit for CO2 or even any SAE's that i saw at my LFS.

I'm just deciding if i really need it or not. I was thinking maybe i should just get a few more Amano algae eating shrimp. I have 3 that have done well but i'm pretty sure 3 isn't enough for a 110g tank.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

I just remembered. I'm probably not at my 3wpg and haven't been in a while.

I've got my CF 260w on for 12h a day but i also have 2 grow lights(T5s at 18w each) that i haven't used in a while because i thought i was getting algae with them more.

Wonder if i would get better growth of my plants with the grow lights on?....
I could probably turn the all the lights on but only for 10hours a day or something.

What do you all think is a good combo?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

No, 3 won't do an entire 110, I'd throw in at least 7 more. How bad is the algae in the tank? Is it taking over the tank or is it just a small amount? As smaug pointed out, a small amount is normal, but it should completely overrun the tank, that isn't normal and that can be avoided.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

No, 3 won't do an entire 110, I'd throw in at least 7 more. How bad is the algae in the tank? Is it taking over the tank or is it just a small amount? As smaug pointed out, a small amount is normal, but it should completely overrun the tank, that isn't normal and that can be avoided.


It's not bad. I think i had a time where it did get kinda bad and i just haven't pruned a lot of the leaves that got it bad. So i've got new growth on top of decaying leaves that should be taken out.

Then i have a little fuzz algae i brush off my driftwood every week and the usual algae on the glass but it isn't that bad.

I guess what it comes down to is i need better growth to combat it or something to help eliminate it.

I've also got my 65w CF that went on my old 30g that isn't being used. I just don't know if i need more or less light or more/less time of lighting.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I think you've got it, you need better growth out of what you have. It would be nice to get an updated picture from the one you entered in TOTM. If you could post them in the same post it would be great, then we would have a rough idea of what kind of growth you are getting.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

I think you've got it, you need better growth out of what you have. It would be nice to get an updated picture from the one you entered in TOTM. If you could post them in the same post it would be great, then we would have a rough idea of what kind of growth you are getting.

Here you go.
Picture of the month picture when the tank was about 1month old. Red/white plant on the left was new and still had it's color, vals in the back right were also new and ended up dying.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/tparkhi2/New%20Big%20Fish%20Tank/IMG_0858-2.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/tparkhi2/New%20Big%20Fish%20Tank/IMG_0965.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/tparkhi2/New%20Big%20Fish%20Tank/IMG_1388.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/tparkhi2/IMG_1432Large.jpg
And here it is now at about 4months old. 2nd picture was about a month after the first. And the last two are from about last week. The last picture was taken during the day and looks much worse then normal as i could make it look better if it was at night.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

In the last picture you can see the hygrophila of the right and it's leaves on the bottom that didn't make it through the algae period, front chain swords put out a leave at about the same period that the bottom leaves get covered in algae and die. compared to when i got it. It put out tons of runners which are what you see in the tank but non look like what the first one i got did.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/tparkhi2/Fish%20stuff/IMG_0492.jpg

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

You do seem to have slow growth, I think you were right, if you can increase the CO2 then you will give you plants the ability to take advantage of the extra ferts in there right now. You have a good substrate and you are dosing so you should be getting better growth. See if you can increase the CO2 a bit. Do it slowly though and watch your pH.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

I went to the LFS today and asked about SAE's and they didn't know but he pointed to what they usually sell for planted aquarium algae removal and they were otto's. Guy said i should get 5 for my tank and that they wouldn't get much bigger so i ended up getting 4 not trusting this guy very much.

So far they just sit there but i'll give them some time. Maybe they're just sizing up their task.


I also got some phos-X that goes in my Fluval to eliminate phosphates. It also tackles nitrites and nitrates but i can always add more of that if needed. Right now i need to get the phosphates under control i think.

[LosC]

I went to the LFS today and asked about SAE's and they didn't know but he pointed to what they usually sell for planted aquarium algae removal and they were otto's. Guy said i should get 5 for my tank and that they wouldn't get much bigger so i ended up getting 4 not trusting this guy very much.

So far they just sit there but i'll give them some time. Maybe they're just sizing up their task.


I also got some phos-X that goes in my Fluval to eliminate phosphates. It also tackles nitrites and nitrates but i can always add more of that if needed. Right now i need to get the phosphates under control i think.

Goodluck with the Otos, maybe they work out for you but mine always die on me. My Amano shrimp do a great job on the algae. lfs's here sell CAE's under the "sucker fish" name maybe its the same where you are.

And don't plants need phosphate?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

RamGuy is correct, your plants need the phosphates. Unless your phosphates are way out of control you don't need the Phos-x. What are you dosing with right now? Depends on what you are dosing with, you may actually be adding phosphates to the tank.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

RamGuy is correct, your plants need the phosphates. Unless your phosphates are way out of control you don't need the Phos-x. What are you dosing with right now? Depends on what you are dosing with, you may actually be adding phosphates to the tank.

I have dry ferts to dose for phosphates but ever since i used that Seachem neutral pH stuff it's been way too high.

It goes straight off the charts on my test kit so i need to get it back down to 0 and work from there and be able to keep it under control.