Jaguar cichlids

[cichlid guy]

Can you get jaguar cichlids in arlington or fort worth and if so how much for one about 3-4in.

[Nick89]

Not sure what your laws are where you live... But i'd check to see if they are availble. I know where I'm from jack dempseys are illegal, so id check first to see if they are legal. But price, it can range just like any other fish. Depends on the area you're buying it from.

[cocoa_pleco]

just wanna add make sure you have a 125g+ tank

[bitteraspects]

you dont ned a 125 for a jaguar. they dont grow that fast, and most will top off around 10". they can however get upwards of 16"+
a single jag will be fine in a 80-90g, but ive seen them in smaller tanks and been happy

[Fishguy2727]

I would say 75 minimum for one unless you happen to get one of the big monsters (which is definitely possible) in which case at that point you definitely need to be looking for a much larger tank.

[cocoa_pleco]

old thread

[kaianuanu]

i just got new Jags i've been dieing for. Tis was the second time ive seen them in my area, the other time, it was an 8" female for 40 bucks! THis time they were 2" and i got 2 for my little cichlid pack in my 55, there are 2 flowerhorns, a JD, and a dovii. Today, i also found a home for 4 of my least favorite members of the "pack", next to go will probably be the 2 FH's and then i will upgrade to a bigger tank and probably lose the dovii and 1 of the jags as they get bigger. today, i also got my seven 2" mbunas into a 4 foot long 50 gallon. What a great day!

[troy]

Kiaianuanu stop buying fish you don't have big enough tanks for!

[OscarFan]

Kiaianuanu stop buying fish you don't have big enough tanks for!


Troy quit trying he obviously doesnt care and wont listen to us.

[Red]

Troy quit trying he obviously doesnt care and wont listen to us.
agreed..........

[Holyvision]

agreed..........

Maybe someday a mutant fish will put him in a 90 gallon aquarium. =)

[kaianuanu]

people have been saying that most jags can be kept in a 75 unless they're one of the rare giants like those 16" oscars. in which case i go to an LFS that is known for carrying "monster fish" that people trade in for good store credit (they take in any fish not only monsters).

[kaianuanu]

bump..........................

[kaianuanu]

Maybe someday a mutant fish will put him in a 90 gallon aquarium. =)

what the heck? confused/LOL

[Red]

what the heck? confused/LOL

He ment a fish would pick/stuff you into a 90 gallon
lol maye then you would listen

[kaianuanu]

i see, which of my tanks do u think i need to un-populate a little? I just updated my profile again so you can see them there.

[Red]

You need a 90 for the jag... but your 50 gal you should add more africans (never thought i would say that to you haa) make sure to avoid aurates as they get mean and leave the jd in the 55

[kaianuanu]

Do you think i have done ok on my way by moving around fish into more apropriate tanks?

[Red]

yes but get that 90 gal..

[kaianuanu]

most jags stay around a foot long that should be fine in a 75 right?

[Red]

IMO no i would get a 90

[kaianuanu]

Imo?????????????????

[kaianuanu]

what does that mean?

[kaianuanu]

does it mean in my opinion?

[Red]

in my opinion

[kaianuanu]

then wat is the norm jag size?

[Red]

a foot to a foot and half

[kaianuanu]

oh, hey do you have a windows live mesenger account? it would be easyier that using this forum. and what do you think i should put in the mbuna tank? i want some blue johanniis and another female kenyi so i have a constant 3:1 female to male ratio

[kaianuanu]

or an AIM account

[Red]

i am not the best with africans maybe start a thread about it..

[kaianuanu]

i see, then how many more do you think? and do you have an A.I.M.?

[Red]

hmm i am not sure on that i would ask someone else

[kaianuanu]

do u have an AIM?

[kaianuanu]

sighn on to it im about to message u

[OscarFan]

While your growing your jags take everything else out of the tank. All of those aggresive fish is going to lead to deaths.

[kaianuanu]

the 5" pleco should be fine so i guess u mean the JD

[OscarFan]

yes they are to aggresive and will kill him.

[kaianuanu]

they were having a few squables earlier but their fine now, so i guess i'll move the JD into the 20gal with his old tank mates. and trade those into the LFS and get store credit towards some mbunas i need for my 50 gal(see "stocking 55" in the malawi forum.

[Fishguy2727]

A 90 is only 4" taller than a 75, I see no poin in specifying a 90 versus 75, it is basically just a little more volume, and not much at that. A 75 is fine for all but the exceptionally large jaguars.

[kaianuanu]

oh, i didn't know the dimensions of a 90. I removed the JD when i noticed them liplocking. so i moved the dovii in w/ the jags to see if they'd get along because i have seen many times where doviis are housed w/ jags but instant liplocking. the dovii got too close to the dominant jag's skull cave thingy. its neat how close they are to adults, they look almost the same, they act the same, they chase the same foods; the only difference is size.

[kaianuanu]

doviis are quite a bit larger than jags right?

[OscarFan]

A 90 is only 4" taller than a 75, I see no poin in specifying a 90 versus 75, it is basically just a little more volume, and not much at that. A 75 is fine for all but the exceptionally large jaguars.


yh. But a 75 is just a couple inches wider than a 75 so wouldn that work than a 75.

Every gallon counts especialy with jags. And he has 2 of them.

[Red]

yh. But a 75 is just a couple inches wider than a 75 so wouldn that work than a 75.

Every gallon counts especialy with jags. And he has 2 of them.
thanks that what i was trying to get

[kaianuanu]

i see, hey guys do you know anything aboyut Lemon Cichlids? aslo, do they eat minnows

[Demjor19]

doviis are quite a bit larger than jags right?

YES...much larger!

[Fishguy2727]

A 90 is no wider than a 75 (I assume that's what you meant by 'a 75 is a few inches wider than a 75').

Yes, bigger is better. But in that case he might as well get a 100. For 10 extra gallons he can get an extra foot of length. And then he might as well get a 120. And then he might as well get a 125...etc. We are discussing minimums here. We all know bigger is better, but since we are on the topic of minimums we need to focus on that. There is a guy on another forum who breeds his jags in a 75. He has the only one that I have seen that looked better than mine. A 75 is minimum, bigger is definitely better.

Get the biggest you have room for and can afford, AT LEAST a 75.

Water changes would have more of an affect than those 15 gallons. In the larger tank he could slack off and the water could be much worse than a well-maintained 75. So the water changes are the more powerful cause between volume and water changes.

[Demjor19]

A 90 is no wider than a 75 (I assume that's what you meant by 'a 75 is a few inches wider than a 75').

Yes, bigger is better. But in that case he might as well get a 100. For 10 extra gallons he can get an extra foot of length. And then he might as well get a 120. And then he might as well get a 125...etc. We are discussing minimums here. We all know bigger is better, but since we are on the topic of minimums we need to focus on that. There is a guy on another forum who breeds his jags in a 75. He has the only one that I have seen that looked better than mine. A 75 is minimum, bigger is definitely better.

Get the biggest you have room for and can afford, AT LEAST a 75.

Water changes would have more of an affect than those 15 gallons. In the larger tank he could slack off and the water could be much worse than a well-maintained 75. So the water changes are the more powerful cause between volume and water changes.

Very well put! I agree 100%!

[OscarFan]

"yeah. But a 75 is just a couple inches wider than a 55 so wouldnt that work instead of a 75."
Is what I meant to say. They should be in a 90. 2 16" fish don't belong in a 75

Every gallon counts especialy with jags. And he has 2 of them.

[Fishguy2727]

No, because a fish should not be in a tank that is not at least as wide as the fish is long. A 55 is only 12" wide, making it too narrow for oscars, jags, dovii, etc. A 75 is 18" wide, making it fine for oscars, jags, etc. That extra width makes a HUGE difference to that fish.

Again, of course bigger is better, but you can more than compensate for the lack of 15 gallons by keeping up with the water changes. I am in no way saying he should not get a 90. I am saying that since the MINIMUM is what we are discussing here, we don't need to address the always true and obvious 'bigger is better' guide we are all very aware of, we need to determine the minimum. If the one fo the best jag keepers is breeding his in a 75, obviously it is a decent minimum for two.

Yes, if you can get a 90, get it. If the biggest footpring you can handle is 4'x18" and you want to get the most gallons, get a 110. But since were addressing the MINIMUM, get at MINIMUM a 75, no less. If you can get a bigger tank, by all means PLEASE get it. The fish will do even better.

Most likely they won't stay together. Maybe he will luck out and they are a pair or simply tolerate each other since they grew up together. And if he is feeding live it is more likely that there will be problems with aggression down the road. If they both get to be 16" and stay together, then yes, an upgrade would be a great idea and probably needed. In that situation a 90 would not cut it anyways, you would want to add at least another foot (if not two) to the length of the tank, not just 15 gallons and 4" in height (cichlids don't need or really use height, they need length and width).

[UNCLE RUCKUS]

most jags stay around a foot long that should be fine in a 75 right?
Minimum recommended tank size: For a single specimen 125g tank should be used to comfortably house it and a breeding pair should have 180g or more and must absolutly be kept alone. A single full grown jag should be kept in a 180g if tank mates are present.:ssuprised:

[Demjor19]

Minimum recommended tank size: For a single specimen 125g tank should be used to comfortably house it and a breeding pair should have 180g or more and must absolutly be kept alone. A single full grown jag should be kept in a 180g if tank mates are present.:ssuprised:

a 180 is totally overkill for a pair of jags. I would say a 125 would work nicely for a pair of breeding jags. Also...if you did put them in a 180 you could easily have tankmates present as long as you had some driftwood or some other structure to break up the territories.

[UNCLE RUCKUS]

a 180 is totally overkill for a pair of jags. I would say a 125 would work nicely for a pair of breeding jags. Also...if you did put them in a 180 you could easily have tankmates present as long as you had some driftwood or some other structure to break up the territories.
have you ever had a pair of breeding jags? i have and they kill everything in the tank when they breed. but i quoted the profile specs and they pretty much have the same on a few profiles. aquaticcommunity says the same in its profile as well.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[UNCLE RUCKUS]

also shouldnt this be in the central american forum as it is a central american fish?:14:

[Fishguy2727]

I would not consider the tanks listed as minimums for most jags, just the exceptional, massive ones. But a pair would need their own tank no matter how large, at least in home aquariums. A single pair would wipe out everything in a 300, not to mention a 180.

[Demjor19]

have you ever had a pair of breeding jags? i have and they kill everything in the tank when they breed. but i quoted the profile specs and they pretty much have the same on a few profiles. aquaticcommunity says the same in its profile as well.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Yes i have. I used to breed them in my 180, but got tired of trying to re-home the fry every time they would breed. I had a female Dempsey, 2 Severums, and several "non-cichlid" species in the 180 (with very minimal aggression). The tank was decorated with 2 large pieces of driftwood and a bunch of artificial plants to help break up the territories.

I ended up rehoming the male Jag and keeping the female Jag in my 75 gallon CA/SA community tank. I then turned the 180 into my Gar/Bichir tank.

When i speak it is always from personal experience.

[kaianuanu]

they'lle be fine in the 55 for a while. in the mean time i can save up for a 75(that is probably the best i can do unless im really lucky, i pray alot, i beg some people alot, and i work really hard). also, i don't plan on keeping both of them forever only 1. Will they grow as fast as my flowerhorns did?

[Fishguy2727]

All fish grow at varying rates. With these types of cichlids it has more to do with variation between individuals. Do not lapse on the care. Even though it means faster growth, high quality diet and water are vital for their health.

Check craigslist and other sources for used tanks, you may luck out. But it is a great plan to start saving up for at least a 75. Good luck.

[troy]

Don't hijack threads Kaianuana.

[kaianuanu]

dude i didnt really jack it it just started a conversation jeez

[kaianuanu]

All fish grow at varying rates. With these types of cichlids it has more to do with variation between individuals. Do not lapse on the care. Even though it means faster growth, high quality diet and water are vital for their health.

Check craigslist and other sources for used tanks, you may luck out. But it is a great plan to start saving up for at least a 75. Good luck.

would you call Hikari Cichlid diets a "High Quality Diet"

PS: Hikari rules :18:

[Fishguy2727]

Hikari is definitely not low quality, but I have found New Life Spectrum to be the best. I used Hikari extensively before switching to NLS and have found NLS to be much better. Remember that there are multiple lines and quality levels of the Hikari Cichlid foods, the only one of which I would consider worth feeding is the Bio-Gold+. If you can get it definitely try NLS.

[kaianuanu]

oh yea i remember you, when i got my first baby oscars and i just joined the forum you were preaching to me and blu-ray about NLS LOL (no offense)

What i do with my cichlids is i feed my babies the Hikari cichlid staple because it helps them grow mad quick with no hormones. when they get older, i mix in alot more of the Hikari Cichlid color supplements like cichlid gold or cichlid bio-gold+. This technique has worked great for me and i get amazing colors on such an inexpensive food. I should make a new forum name and make it HikariGuy LOL. but no, i don't get danichi or NLS in my LFS's and my parents don't normally let me order anything offline. Not that i like online shopping anyway. Hey i haven't talked to blu-ray in forever, hey just wanted to tell him thanks, he was the biggest help for me when i had my first oscars. You know what we should nominate him for member of the year

[OscarFan]

Hikari is definitely not low quality, but I have found New Life Spectrum to be the best. I used Hikari extensively before switching to NLS and have found NLS to be much better. Remember that there are multiple lines and quality levels of the Hikari Cichlid foods, the only one of which I would consider worth feeding is the Bio-Gold+. If you can get it definitely try NLS.


I like Hikari bio gold with a mixture of hikari staple for large carnivores is better. But my Oscar wouldnt even touch NLS.

[kaianuanu]

hey, actally, i think fish guy wa spreaching to me and you oscarfan do you remember?

[kaianuanu]

PS: you like my new avattar

[kaianuanu]

PS PS: do any of you guys have a Jag, JD, Flowerhorn, or electric blue hap?
(I know, the blue hap kinda came out of nowhere

[bitteraspects]

how many of you guys that are suggesting 90+ tanks actually keep jags?

[bitteraspects]

Minimum recommended tank size: For a single specimen 125g tank should be used to comfortably house it and a breeding pair should have 180g or more and must absolutly be kept alone. A single full grown jag should be kept in a 180g if tank mates are present.:ssuprised:

the so called "standards" are just peoples opinions. if you keep up with W/C, level checks, feeding, aquascaping, you can keep a FULL GROWN jaguar in a 55g with no problem, and 2 in a 75. not to mention, according to the above logic, a single jag needs 125g of space, but the second one only needs 55g? how do you figure. or if you figure 180/2, that still only leaves a 90g for a single fish? its funny how people come up with these numbers out of their butts.
these fish live in LAKES!, so i guess in all reality, a single jag should have 1000+g of space right? how much space does a wild elephant need when placed in a zoo? or a wild caught snake thats kept in a 40g tank, when it usually has miles of space to travel/ hunt/ ect.
theres no way to really calculate how much space a wild animal needs when held in captivity.

quite frankly, 16" jaguars are not nearly as common as people think, they grow pretty slowly, and usually at about 9-10" they slow down on growth. 12" is pretty common, but unless you have a single jag in a 180+, and youre doing bi-weekly W/C and feeding them twice a day you probably wont see a 16". i personally keep/raise jaguars, and i can speak from personal experiance, that you dont "need" that much tank space as long as you care for them properly.

[Fishguy2727]

The Hikari Staple is just a lower quality version of the other ones. Why not just feed their best one, the Bio-Gold+?

Many minimums are established for room to move, not on a 'per volume' basis. For example: I would consider the minimum for giant danios to be a 20long because they need the room to move provided by a 20long. That does not mean you need 20 gallons per giant danio. You can have a small school (minimum school is 6) in a 20long. Volume suggestions are based on water quality, which can be compensated for in a smaller tank by more water changes.

Jaguar cichlids get way too long to be in a 55. They can be over 15". A 55 is only 12" wide. That is way too narrow for such a long fish. You are saying that a 20" jaguar cichlid is fine in a 55? They are rare but they are out there.

You ever stop to wonder why so many oscars, jags, etc. do not get to full potential? Because so many people who think they are experts come on and tell others that they are fine in 55s. You do not think that such a narrow tank can have an effect on how large the animal grows?

You are acknowledging that better care means the animal will grow larger. That means that 'normal' care is actually stunting them. If your water change schedule or diet is affecting how fast they grow or to how large, you need to improve.

I got mine at about 2" and he was 15" in a few years. He was in a 55 then upgraded to a 75 at about the 12" mark, at about two years old. I fed him properly (heavier while smaller, much lighter as he got to the 10" or so mark) and the water changes were weekly.

If you are going to keep yours in undersized tanks that is your choice and we can't stop you. However, please do not come on here and suggest others to do the same. A 12" wide 55 is no place for a 'full grown' jaguar cichlid.

[Demjor19]

how many of you guys that are suggesting 90+ tanks actually keep jags?

I would only recommend a 75-90 gallon tank for a female Jag. I think a male Jag should be kept in something slightly larger (110-125). It's not all about the tank size...what it really comes down to is the individual fish keepers husbandry. All of my more heavily stocked tanks recieve 2-3 50% water changes per week.

[bitteraspects]

Jaguar cichlids get way too long to be in a 55. They can be over 15". A 55 is only 12" wide. That is way too narrow for such a long fish. You are saying that a 20" jaguar cichlid is fine in a 55? They are rare but they are out there.
have you ever PERSONALLY seen a 20" jaguar? or are you just pulling numbers out of your butt in an attempt to prove a point? and please dont post a stupid link to "MONSTER fish keepers"
"full grown" is all relative. some will grow NO LONGER then 11" NO MATTER WHAT TANK SIZE. just as some people only grow to be 4' 11". sure, there are people that have grown to 11' tall. "THEYRE OUT THERE" :rolleyes: that doesnt mean that every "full grown" human will get to be 11' tall if they eat right or have a 50 foot bed to sleep in.
OBVIOUSLY a 55 is too small for a 20" jaguar, but thats nowhere near what i said. your attempts to disprove me with ridiculous numbers only further prove my point.


You ever stop to wonder why so many oscars, jags, etc. do not get to full potential? Because so many people who think they are experts come on and tell others that they are fine in 55s. You do not think that such a narrow tank can have an effect on how large the animal grows?

You are acknowledging that better care means the animal will grow larger. That means that 'normal' care is actually stunting them. If your water change schedule or diet is affecting how fast they grow or to how large, you need to improve.

one thing fish keepers like to leave out whenever arguing a stupid point like this is, THEYRE PETS. yes, keeping them in a tank stunts their growth. even a 20" in a 300g tank will not grow to full potential. if it can grow to 20" in a tank, theres a good chance it would get even bigger in the lake it came from. if youre so hell bent on fish growth vs. water volume, do the humane thing and release all your fish back to the wild where they belong.
just because its growth is SLIGHTLY stunted by the keeper, doesnt mean the fish is in any way cared for improperly or unhappy. again, if cared for and upkept well, in a smaller tank, you can keep it very active with full coloration and free of disease , hence, HAPPY :thumbs2:

If you are going to keep yours in undersized tanks that is your choice and we can't stop you. However, please do not come on here and suggest others to do the same. A 12" wide 55 is no place for a 'full grown' jaguar cichlid.

if youre going to suggest that all jaguars grow to be 3 feet long, and actually believe any of the other bogus nonsense you shell out, i cant stop you. However, please do not come here and suggest others do the same. a 12" wide tank, is no place for a 20" jaguar... but not many "full grown" jaguars will ever get to be 20" :rolleyes:


have a nice day

[bitteraspects]

It's not all about the tank size...what it really comes down to is the individual fish keepers husbandry.


that is exactly right :19:

[kaianuanu]

wow, that was very educational thanks!

[UNCLE RUCKUS]

the so called "standards" are just peoples opinions. if you keep up with W/C, level checks, feeding, aquascaping, you can keep a FULL GROWN jaguar in a 55g with no problem, and 2 in a 75. not to mention, according to the above logic, a single jag needs 125g of space, but the second one only needs 55g? how do you figure. or if you figure 180/2, that still only leaves a 90g for a single fish? its funny how people come up with these numbers out of their butts.
these fish live in LAKES!, so i guess in all reality, a single jag should have 1000+g of space right? how much space does a wild elephant need when placed in a zoo? or a wild caught snake thats kept in a 40g tank, when it usually has miles of space to travel/ hunt/ ect.
theres no way to really calculate how much space a wild animal needs when held in captivity.

quite frankly, 16" jaguars are not nearly as common as people think, they grow pretty slowly, and usually at about 9-10" they slow down on growth. 12" is pretty common, but unless you have a single jag in a 180+, and youre doing bi-weekly W/C and feeding them twice a day you probably wont see a 16". i personally keep/raise jaguars, and i can speak from personal experiance, that you dont "need" that much tank space as long as you care for them properly.
instead of asking me this question ask the author of the profile. all im saying is what is printed in the profiles elsewhere and here on A.C. I DID GET A KICK OUT OF YOUR EXAMPLE according to the above logic, a single jag needs 125g of space, but the second one only needs 55g? how do you figure. or if you figure 180/2, that still only leaves a 90g for a single fish? its funny how people come up with these numbers out of their butts.
these fish live in LAKES!, so i guess in all reality, a single jag should have 1000+g of space right? how much space does a wild elephant need when placed in a zoo? or a wild caught snake thats kept in a 40g tank, when it usually has miles of space to travel/ hunt/ ect.
theres no way to really calculate how much space a wild animal needs when held in captivity.:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:
YOURE RIGHT !!!

[kaianuanu]

i aggree,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[fins_n_fur]

Folks, it's fine to debate all the different aspects of fish keeping in this forum--it's one of the reasons the AC is so popular. This thread is starting to get a bit heated. Please try to keep things civilized before a mod locks the thread and some of you get a talking to :hmm3grin2orange:

[kaianuanu]

hey, your avatar is so cool

[Fishalicious]

I agree with the Fins... debating is great but do it in a respectful manner pretty please... :11:

[Demjor19]

that is exactly right :19:

This is a very hard concept for many to grasp. They see a type of fish and instantly name a tank size that it has to be in...or "it'll get stunted". As long as the fish has enough room to be comfotable, adequate filtration, regular water changes, and a good diet...things will work out very well. Also...housing the fish with apprpriate tankmates is a huge aspect of keeping fish that people seem to overlook. They always think you can just throw any given fish into a tank together and things will be ok...another HUGE misconception.

[Fishguy2727]

Fishbase.org is one of the most reliable resources for accurate information on natural parameters, ranges, and maximum sizes and is commonly relied upon by the scientific community (not just hobbyists). They have Parachromis managuensis (jaguar cichlid) listed at 55cm, that is 22 inches. That means that they do get that big. This is not to be expected of every individual, but it is the species' maximum potential. I am not simply pulling this numbers out of my butt as you may suggest. Mine was 15". I have seen them at 16" and at 20".

When a jaguar cichlid only gets to 12" instead of its full potential of even just 16" (to give you the huge benefit of any doubt) that is not "SLIGHTLY stunted", that is stunted, plain and simple. Slightly stunted would be something like 12" as opposed to 13". 12" as opposed to 16" is only 75% of what it should have been if the keeper had done his job.

If you want to take the attitude of 'they are just pets' that is your choice. I choose to do the best I reasonably can to help these animals THRIVE and not just LIVE. That is also what I recommend and what any of my recommendations are based on.

I never once mentioned anything about jaguar cichlids getting to be 3'. Please do not ever put words into my mouth just so that you have something to argue against.

I am not making suggestions based on water volume. Volume is usually used for water quality and water quality is effected more by water changes. That is a separate issue.

My recommendations are made assuming the fishkeeper can keep water quality high enough (nitrate concentration under 20ppm). My minimum tank size recommendations are made based on the standard dimensions of the tanks listed. This is based on the species' normal size. Yes there are jags that will never get over eight or eleven inches in length. And no, they do not need anything larger than a 55 because a 55 is wide enough to accomidate them. However, with jaguar cichlids being such a large species and hobbyists growing them to be so large, I think the reason so many think they can get away with smaller tanks is because so many are stunted.

When someone comes on here and says 'a jaguar cichlid or oscar is fine in a 55' it tells five other people with less experience that if they have a 55 they can have those fish. So they put a jaguar or oscar in a 55, it gets big, gets stunted, doesn't exceed 12", and all current observable things say it is 'fine', 'good enough', etc. A fish can be severely stunted and still be "very active with full coloration and free of disease , hence, HAPPY". Then that person says it to five others and everyone is citing the jags and oscars that never exceed 12" as standards for that species. Then three years later when the jag or oscar is only five years old it dies of 'old age', a mystery death, or starts to get sick with something like HLLE, parasites, or any one of the many opportunistic pathogens. But since the fish was 'fine' for so long in that size tank the keeper assumes it was not the tank size or water quality that brought it down, it was something else.

Anyone reading this:
PLEASE reconsider keeping things like oscars, jaguar cichlids, etc. in tanks that are not large enough to house them when full grown. Look at the maximum sizes for these species. They should not be in tanks that are not at least as wide as the fish is long. If you want to start it in a smaller tank that is fine. If you hope to keep it in a 55 or 75 but are willing to upgrade if the fish's length is closing in on the width of the tank, that is fine. But PLEASE do not put them and keep them in tanks that we know are small enoguh to stunt them. This is EXTREMELY unhealthy for the fish. It may be 'fine enough' for years only to cause problems later or greatly shorten its lifespan.

[William]

I am going to post my 2c.

Jaguars to grow close to 20 inches and I have seen 18 inch + jaguars during my time in Nicaragua. Jaguars of this size is quite rare today due to over fishing (in most waters) but was relatively common in the past. The largest jag I have seen in an aquarium was 17 inch.

As for aquarium size. A very smart individual here said that it depends on the setup etc and that is very, very true. The recommendations on this site are a good rule of thumb but the truth is that the right decoration might allow you to keep fish species in smaller tanks. But since most aquarium keepers aren't experts on how to decorate to minimize aggression in Central American cichlids we have to adjust our recommendations so the fish will do well in the average aquarium. Another smart member said that a fish should only be kept in aquariums that are deeper than the fish is long. 75 gallon is therefore an absolute minimum for jags if you are good at decorating tanks for central American cichlids (it is an art) otherwise they'll need a larger aquarium and very large jags need larger aquariums (150g +). I can add that I kept and breed a pair of adult jags in an 75 gallon tank for many years without any problems. It worked out well since the pair was already established and very friendly towards each other. I don't recommend trying to pair jaguar cichlids in such a small aquarium. It should also be said that they were kept alone and when I stopped breeding them they were moved to a 150 gallon tank.

I also want to add that how well you care for the aquarium, how often you change water etc greatly effect how large aquarium you need. A smaller aquarium need that you need to take a lot better care of the fish to keep in the same health.

Dovii cichlids grow a lot larger and I personally wouldn't keep a fully grown male in less than 250 gallon.

I also want to say that consider your own experince when you listen to advice: a beginner who listen to an expert say that they have kept that and that fish, in that and that tank should not think that he can do the same. the more you know the more rules you can brake but if you are a beginner or semi beginner you should stick to the recommendations in books and online.

[Demjor19]

Well put Fishguy and William! I'd just like to add that the largest Jag i have personally seen was a 16" male and was also in a "well decorated" community tank.

[Fishguy2727]

I had my jag alone, for a reason. He was not territorial of the tank, he was territorial of the whole room. He would flare up at and charge you if you were moving within sight. I can't imagine what size tank I would have needed to have anything else in with him. IF I had raised him since he was a juvenile with other jags and a pair formed I could see that working, but pairing grown cichlids is at best risky. His tank was empty overall. He had gravel to move around and play with, and he had a 6" PVC T-connector for a hide. This kept debris accumulation to a minimum which helped keep water quality up. The smallest tank I have seen jags in with other fish was a 300.

[bitteraspects]

I am going to post my 2c.

Jaguars to grow close to 20 inches and I have seen 18 inch + jaguars during my time in Nicaragua. Jaguars of this size is quite rare today due to over fishing (in most waters) but was relatively common in the past. The largest jag I have seen in an aquarium was 17 inch.

As for aquarium size. A very smart individual here said that it depends on the setup etc and that is very, very true. The recommendations on this site are a good rule of thumb but the truth is that the right decoration might allow you to keep fish species in smaller tanks. But since most aquarium keepers aren't experts on how to decorate to minimize aggression in Central American cichlids we have to adjust our recommendations so the fish will do well in the average aquarium. Another smart member said that a fish should only be kept in aquariums that are deeper than the fish is long. 75 gallon is therefore an absolute minimum for jags if you are good at decorating tanks for central American cichlids (it is an art) otherwise they'll need a larger aquarium and very large jags need larger aquariums (150g +). I can add that I kept and breed a pair of adult jags in an 75 gallon tank for many years without any problems. It worked out well since the pair was already established and very friendly towards each other. I don't recommend trying to pair jaguar cichlids in such a small aquarium. It should also be said that they were kept alone and when I stopped breeding them they were moved to a 150 gallon tank.

I also want to add that how well you care for the aquarium, how often you change water etc greatly effect how large aquarium you need. A smaller aquarium need that you need to take a lot better care of the fish to keep in the same health.

Dovii cichlids grow a lot larger and I personally wouldn't keep a fully grown male in less than 250 gallon.

I also want to say that consider your own experince when you listen to advice: a beginner who listen to an expert say that they have kept that and that fish, in that and that tank should not think that he can do the same. the more you know the more rules you can brake but if you are a beginner or semi beginner you should stick to the recommendations in books and online.

well put. thats how the information should be relayed, not "you need a 100+g tank for a single jaguar, because thats just plain BS. everything is relative to the specific specimen, upkeep of the tank, ect. but again, you saw the largest of them in their natural habitat right?
i have personally owned large jaguars, and have sen them at 16", but that does not mean that is the norm. if you are not responsable enough to be able to keep a jaguar in a 75g tank at the proper parameters, by all means, get a bigger tank so that your wet pet doesnt have to suffer because you dont care enough to do the proper upkeep. or better yet, look into a smaller species that you might be able to look after properly.

[kaianuanu]

i dont even know what to say, just watch this video. Poor little jag

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[bitteraspects]

If you want to take the attitude of 'they are just pets' that is your choice. I choose to do the best I reasonably can to help these animals THRIVE and not just LIVE. That is also what I recommend and what any of my recommendations are based on.



When someone comes on here and says 'a jaguar cichlid or oscar is fine in a 55' it tells five other people with less experience that if they have a 55 they can have those fish. So they put a jaguar or oscar in a 55, it gets big, gets stunted, doesn't exceed 12", and all current observable things say it is 'fine', 'good enough', etc. A fish can be severely stunted and still be "very active with full coloration and free of disease , hence, HAPPY". Then that person says it to five others


i do appreciate your concern for the species, but youre not going to single handedly stop people from putting aquarium fish into whatever tank they have/ can afford/ see fit. best thing you can do is release your fish back into the wild so you can do your part in making sure the species will grow to be more the 12"


My recommendations are made assuming the fishkeeper can keep water quality high enough (nitrate concentration under 20ppm). My minimum tank size recommendations are made based on the standard dimensions of the tanks listed. This is based on the species' normal size. Yes there are jags that will never get over eight or eleven inches in length. And no, they do not need anything larger than a 55 because a 55 is wide enough to accomidate them.
If you want to start it in a smaller tank that is fine. If you hope to keep it in a 55 or 75 but are willing to upgrade if the fish's length is closing in on the width of the tank, that is fine.

there we go, i went ahead and filtered out the blah blah blah. i knew you had some useful information in there.

good post

[bitteraspects]

Folks, it's fine to debate all the different aspects of fish keeping in this forum--it's one of the reasons the AC is so popular. This thread is starting to get a bit heated. Please try to keep things civilized before a mod locks the thread and some of you get a talking to :hmm3grin2orange:
nah its cool, its friendly debate. were both sharing whatever knowledge we have personally, or what he read on the internet.
a little debate never hurt anybody as long as you dont get offended or butt hurt because someone doesnt agree with you.

[Demjor19]

I had my jag alone, for a reason. He was not territorial of the tank, he was territorial of the whole room. He would flare up at and charge you if you were moving within sight. I can't imagine what size tank I would have needed to have anything else in with him. IF I had raised him since he was a juvenile with other jags and a pair formed I could see that working, but pairing grown cichlids is at best risky. His tank was empty overall. He had gravel to move around and play with, and he had a 6" PVC T-connector for a hide. This kept debris accumulation to a minimum which helped keep water quality up. The smallest tank I have seen jags in with other fish was a 300.

That's exactly how my Dovii is (which was expected). He will attack as soon as someone enters the room and will not stop flaring and charging the glass until they leave (and i did try raising him in a SA/CA Comm tank...no luck). That fish is absolutely insane. It just goes to show that all fish are individuals and should be treated as such. You can't just list a care sheet and say "this will work for you". Each fish needs to be cared for and housed according to it's disposition and it's individual personality.

[bitteraspects]

That's exactly how my Dovii is (which was expected). He will attack as soon as someone enters the room and will not stop flaring and charging the glass until they leave (and i did try raising him in a SA/CA Comm tank...no luck). That fish is absolutely insane. It just goes to show that all fish are individuals and should be treated as such. You can't just list a care sheet and say "this will work for you". Each fish needs to be cared for and housed according to it's disposition and it's individual personality.
one of my jaguars is the same way. its in a 90g by himself (@ 12" or so) and any time you enter the room, it stares you down and follows you around.

[troy]

[QUOTE=bitteraspects]i do appreciate your concern for the species, but youre not going to single handedly stop people from putting aquarium fish into whatever tank they have/ can afford/ see fit. best thing you can do is release your fish back into the wild so you can do your part in making sure the species will grow to be more the 12"

I doubt that anyone can release jags into their natural habitat unless they lived in their natural habitat. Also, if you let it go it will most likely die because it can't compete for food and it can introduce new pathogens into the water source.

[Demjor19]

[quote=bitteraspects]i do appreciate your concern for the species, but youre not going to single handedly stop people from putting aquarium fish into whatever tank they have/ can afford/ see fit. best thing you can do is release your fish back into the wild so you can do your part in making sure the species will grow to be more the 12"

I doubt that anyone can release jags into their natural habitat unless they lived in their natural habitat. Also, if you let it go it will most likely die because it can't compete for food and it can introduce new pathogens into the water source.

Don't be so sure of this...there are now Jaguar cichlids (along with many other non-native tropical species) all over in Florida and several other southern states due to irrisponsible hobbyists releasing them into the wild.

[bitteraspects]

quoted the wrong guy pal. that wasnt me. lol

[bitteraspects]

I doubt that anyone can release jags into their natural habitat unless they lived in their natural habitat. Also, if you let it go it will most likely die because it can't compete for food and it can introduce new pathogens into the water source.


there you go. :c12:

[Fishguy2727]

Please do not edit my posts down to what you decide is worthy. It is not your responsibility at all and is disrespectful.

It is not an option to release pets, period. To suggest that is misinformed, uneducated, and irresponsible. In addition, they do not need to be in the wild to grow larger than 12". As you should be able to see from this thread MANY in well-maintained tanks grow much larger than 12".

I never expected to nor said that I would be single handedly keeping people from keeping their fish improperly. That also does not mean we should not try to help people improve.

[troy]

[quote=troy]

Don't be so sure of this...there are now Jaguar cichlids (along with many other non-native tropical species) all over in Florida and several other southern states due to irrisponsible hobbyists releasing them into the wild.
I said NATURAL habitat.

[bitteraspects]

how do you keep missing it? im confused. do you read every other line?

releasing them back into the lakes in honduras (or wherever yours came from) IS ABSOLUTELY AN OPTION. and if you cant care for your fish properly, its probably the best one.

secondly, i never said they wouldnt grow past 12" unless in a lake. you said 20". i also stated that i have personally had them larger then 12", and seen them near 16".
also. what are you trying to help people improve? getting a bigger tank doesnt improve anything, if anything it allows you to slack off on your upkeep of the tank. youre "improvement" is based on the idea that you NEED a ridiculously sized tank for these fish, which is absolutely false.

and lastly, i will edit and quote whatever i want, and you cant stop that. if youd leave the blah blah blah out of your posts, thered be nothing to remove.

[Fishguy2727]

It is simply not an option to release pets. It is completely irresponsible that it was even suggested. Even if actually wild caught, individuals should only be released within a short period of time (a couple weeks to a month) and in the EXACT same location. Since these are captive bred that is impossible. The changing ecosystems of Florida are a prime example of why NOT to EVER release ANY pets ANYWHERE.

[Fishguy2727]

Direct quote from bitteraspects from this page:
"secondly, i never said they wouldnt grow past 12" unless in a lake."

Direct quote from bitteraspects from page 9:
"best thing you can do is release your fish back into the wild so you can do your part in making sure the species will grow to be more the 12""

[bitteraspects]

Direct quote from bitteraspects from this page:
"secondly, i never said they wouldnt grow past 12" unless in a lake."

Direct quote from bitteraspects from page 9:
"best thing you can do is release your fish back into the wild so you can do your part in making sure the species will grow to be more the 12""
which was in responce to your "5 people tell 5 more people tell 5 mopre peole, and soon all the fish on the planet will be stunted" speech.
and secondly, the fish arent from florida, so that wouldnt be their natural habitat would it?
do you even know where thy come from.

seriously, stop posting already, youre embarrassing yourself

[bitteraspects]

i said YOU. FISHGUY should release your fish and do your part. that wasnt a general suggestion.

[Fishguy2727]

Again:
To anyone reading this:
-Please provide as long of a tank as possible. Bigger is always better, but there are certain minimums that need to be provided. These vary from species to species and can vary between individuals.
-Please keep water quality as high as possible (nitrate concentration under 20ppm).
-Please provide the best diet you can.

Under no circumstances should anyone release pets. It is illegal in many places and greatly disrupts the local ecosystems. If you happen to have caught something native from the wild your self and you wish to return it to the same spot within a short amount of time and it is legal, that is okay. In many or most states there are regulations to time limits of captivity, latest time of year, etc. For example: here in VA the animal must be returned to the same spot it was caught from, not have been in captivity more than 30 days, not have been around any other animals, not be released later than some time in late September, and I think there are a couple other regulations. This only applies to wild caught native species.

[Halelorf]

and secondly, the fish arent from florida, so that wouldnt be their natural habitat would it?do you even know where thy come from.

I believe he is talking about invasive populations of tropical fish such as Jaguars, Oscars, Plecos etc. becoming established in floridian waters because irresponsible hobbyists released them there. Not that they are native to Florida.

[bitteraspects]

well put. thats how the information should be relayed, not "you need a 100+g tank for a single jaguar, because thats just plain BS. everything is relative to the specific specimen, upkeep of the tank, ect. but again, you saw the largest of them in their natural habitat right?
i have personally owned large jaguars, and have sen them at 16", but that does not mean that is the norm. if you are not responsable enough to be able to keep a jaguar in a 75g tank at the proper parameters, by all means, get a bigger tank so that your wet pet doesnt have to suffer because you dont care enough to do the proper upkeep. or better yet, look into a smaller species that you might be able to look after properly.

please read the whole thread again before you decide to further post anything, cause i think youre confusing yourself.

[bitteraspects]

I believe he is talking about invasive populations of tropical fish such as Jaguars, Oscars, Plecos etc. becoming established in floridian waters because irresponsible hobbyists released them there. Not that they are native to Florida.
right, my suggestion was to release it into its natural habitat, not the stream behind his house.

[Fishguy2727]

Please read the previous posts as to why releasing pets is not okay.

[Halelorf]

right, my suggestion was to release it into its natural habitat, not the stream behind his house.

He understood what you were saying, but you are presenting a straw-man argument. Taking captive bred species born in tanks thousands of miles away from their natural habitat and releasing them back there is NOT a valid option. This thread has gone completely off on a tangent and is becoming nothing more than then a trollfest.

[bitteraspects]

apparently its hard for people to stay on topic around here.

[bitteraspects]

Please read the previous posts as to why releasing pets is not okay.
please read between the lines. i dont suggest you actually release them, as it is not only illegal, but not safe. i do however suggest you rehome youre fish to a friend or lfs that is actually able to care for them, as you believe the only way to care for them is to keep putting them in larger tanks.

[Red]

bitter i have nothing against you in any way but please be respectful... You should respect fishguy and everyone else..

[bitteraspects]

bitter i have nothing against you in any way but please be respectful... You should respect fishguy and everyone else..
it goes both ways my friend. i always give respect wheres due, and never have an unkind word to say unprovoked. much like now. i have nothing bad to say to you, though you singled me out and not the other guy, but i do respect your opinion, and as such, have nothing bad to say.

[Fishguy2727]

I do not feel you were ever disrespected at all beyond people not happening to agree with you. Every one else has stuck to the facts and you have decided to make it your duty to be rude and disrespectful to those you decided deserve it. This is a friendly forum and I think we all want to keep it this way. If you would like to provide statements that I made that made you feel it was appropriate to say things like "pull information/numbers out of your butt", "I found all the good stuff and took out all the 'blah blah blah'", call my information and opinions BS, etc. please share them so that I can improve. If you feel you have been disrespected contact a mod or admin so they can deal with it approriately, it is their job, not yours. It is never acceptable to treat others with rudeness and disrespect, not matter how much you feel they deserve it. If you feel they have disrespected you or been rude to you or anyone else, there are more appropriate ways to deal with it.

Yes, I feel that if a fish outgrows a tank it should move to a larger one. I fail to see how that is a problem or controversial.

[bitteraspects]

apparently you lack the capacity for the information being given to you, and as such, im done trying to educate you. you enjoy your oversized tanks, just stop trying to convince prople its the only way just because you lack the responsability to keep larger species in attiquite sized tanks

[Red]

If people knew whcih fish can fit in there tank they wouldnt have to worry about rehoming... that should be it.

[Fishguy2727]

I lack the responsibility to keep fish in adequate (not "attiquite") sized tanks because I go by a minimum standard accepted by so many, that a fish should be able to turn around?

I am pretty sure I have the capacity for the information being discussed here. I am in my last semester as a Biology major and have had fish for twelve years now, I know what I am talking about.

Would you please:
1-cite what you have found to be so offensive and rude
2-state exactly what you feel is a good guide to determine the minimum tank size to keep a fish in
3-continue to educate and enlighten us.

More information never hurts and if you have experience with jags and other fish we would love to hear about it.

[bitteraspects]

no, im done here. you go by your "minimum standard", and dont bother thinking or learning for yourself. "accepted standard" is nothing more then a sheep following someones opinion. while i agree the fish needs room to turn around, i also know that you dont need a 125 for a single jaguar, and that is from personal experience, not what i read off the internet 12 years ago. but agian, you feel free to get the biggest tank you can afford and continue to slack off on your upkeep just because the tank parameters will stay the same longer, and neglect your fish the attention they deserve. im done trying to educate you.

[Fishguy2727]

How does a larger tank mean I will slack off on water changes or care?
I keep up aggressive water changes no matter what the tank size is or the parameters. Even my 150 gets its big weekly water change. I keep the same water change schedule, it is just that the larger tank means more room for the fish and EVEN higher water quality. A larger water volume is no excuse for slacking off on care.

And I said the minimum tank size for a jaguar was a 75 unless you happen to get an exceptionally large one.

The standards I quote are not from books or online, otherwise I would not be able to say one or the other since so many resources contradict each other so extremely. I base my suggestions on personal experience. I am not a sheep following others (I think a lot of people on here who know me better would strongly agree to that). I am definitely one ot think for myself and question every thing I hear, some would say too much so. My jag did great in his 75 and if he had gotten bigger then at that point I would have upgraded him again, as needed.

[Red]

you dont make much sense... You accuse him of wanting a bigger tank because he wants neglect his fish but he is spending HIS money to give the fish a better home but you are putting a jag in a 55 that is way to small for one but your not neglecting it?

[bitteraspects]

reading back is tough, i know. here severum, ill help you.

you dont ned a 125 for a jaguar. they dont grow that fast, and most will top off around 10". they can however get upwards of 16"+
a single jag will be fine in a 80-90g, but ive seen them in smaller tanks and been happy

allow me to explain it to you severum, one last time before im done with this thread.
if you keep up with your tanks properly, you can keep a jaguar by itself in a 80-90g tank with no problem at all. however, if kept up meticulously, you can go as far as a 55 (depending on the size of the fish of course), its not recommended, and i dont personally, but its definitely doable.
the reason a lot of people (not everyone) go with bigger tanks, and suggest bigger tanks, is to stabilize water parameters. such suggestions only allow people to slack on upkeep, and promote such behavior. (not to mention driving up the prices of tanks) . this does not create any less waste from the fish, just spreads it out further. i do not advocate using larger tanks for this reason as it will ultimately lead to nitrate gas problems in the substrate, ect. however if you have a large community tank or something like thet, then the dimensions are not only appreciated by the fish kept, but necessary for maintaining levels.
furthermore, the so called "minimum tank size" is complete BS. minimum tank size is only relevant to the size of the fish, and though the species can grow to 16+ with some monsters in the 20"+ range, this is not the norm. ayone who preaches growth stunting, in an aquarium is a hypocrite and shouldnt keep fish at all. whatever size they grow to in any size tank (300g+ even), they have the potential to grow even larger in the wild in their natural habitat. as for pet bred species, they are ment to be kept as such, and not in the wild. much in the same way pit bulls started getting bread as am staffs in the 1900's for their temperament, coats, and SIZE, as they were ment to be kept as pets. hence, most of the jaguars bred for aquariums will never see the sizes of their cousins in the wild. (unless of course its from a breeder who is only breeding the largest of the bunch, but thats for another bedtime story)
however, whatever tank the fish will fit in happily relevant to its size, the husbandry of the keeper, the amount and quality of filtration, aquascaping, feeding, ect, that is the minimum tank requirement, and is a situational guideline . quite frankly, if you only have a 4in jaguar, you only need a 29g tank. where most people will say, "oh, you have a jaguar? i hope you have a 100g tank for it"

with that said, there is so much more to add, but as stated, im done with the nonsense here. so, severum, if you have any questions, or would like to further discuss the issue, feel free to PM me or email. but im done here

aloha

[Fishalicious]

This thread is closed.... the discussion has turned into bickering.

Everyone's opinions are their own but not always right! No one should force their views on someone else.

Trying to be-little each other in a childish manner is also just not on.