Yet another 'high ammonia' thread....

[nwnittany]

I hate to do this to the forum, but here's another newbie with an ammonia problem.

Here's the situation. We have a 20 gallon freshwater community tank, whipser 20 filter, additional airstone, 4 live plants, medium-sized stones on bottom, typical assortment of decorations. The fish collection has grown to now include 4 cory, 2 coolie loach, 2 platy, 2 guppy, 2 danio, 1 molly, 2 swordtail, 2 dwarf frogs, and depending on the month, some fry. I know, I know, that's alot of fish and alot of fish poop.

But, for 9 months there were no water quality problems. I tested weekly and did 25% changes a couple of times a month. The water tests were consistently 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20-40 nitrate, 6.2-6.4 pH. During the 'good days' I was using the test strips, which aren't quite as accurate (I'm told). The temperature is 76-78. I was adding the usual water treatments (to eliminate the chlorine) for new water and was also adding some aquarium salt with each water change.

The only problems during 'the good days' were the loss of a few fish within a few days of being introduced the the tank, a couple of snails, and a vampire shrimp. I had been assuming that the ones that died quickly, either weren't healthy or died from the stress of being introduced to a new tank. I'm not sure about the shrimp or snail, but maybe the salt did it ? FWIW, I got all of them at a nameless pet store chain. So, it's not out of the question they were a bit sapped when I got them.

What happened next was some real baffoonary on my part.

I had the brilliant idea that it would be good to use hot tap water to rinse out the new filter bag I was changing. My filter uses bio-bags, which use some carbon and it keeps the water a bit cleaner if you rinse the carbon before putting it in the tank. Not my finest moment !

Then the sh*t hit the fan and the ammonia gods wreaked havoc on the tank. Ammonia levels spiked to between 4ppm and 6ppm. I thought my test strips were faulty, so I got liquid test kids, which of course showed the same results. Nitrites were still 0, nitrates maybe 5, and pH 6.0-6.2. Everything else the same.

I don't have a spare tank so I couldn't just move the fish and cycle up a new tank. I panicked and started daily 25% water changes and started to use Topfin ammonia remover. After a week, I had the ammonia down to .5-1ppm, nitrites still 0, and nitrates staying at 5. I cut back on the feeding. But, after a few days, the ammonia was back up at 4ppm.

The strange thing is that the fish seemed OK through all of this. I'm not an expert at what a stressed fish looks like, but I didn't see any clamped fins or other strange behavior. We lost a molly during this time, but the molly had been struggling for a 3-4 months. The only think I can figure is that either the low pH saved me or ammonia remover worked. Or both.

The problem is this cycle isn't getting better. I've been in this pattern of letting the ammonia get up to 4ppm and then starting the daily water changes. I guess I've been in this pattern for a 3 weeks now. Ammonia goes from .5 to 4ppm, nitrites always read 0, pH is always low, and nitrates are usually about 5. The only piece of good news is that the last few days the nitrates have risen to about 10 (I say this is good news because I am assuming that this is the result of some ammonia being converted, although never seeing nitrites is mysterious).

One other piece of data. I added a small in-tank sponge filter thinking this would give another surface for the bacteria to build on.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation. Anyone have any suggestions ? Am I just delaying things by doing the water changes when the ammonia reaches 4ppm ?

[MandyL]

Well I guess you already know what you did wrong with rinsing the filter media. ;)

You aren't delaying things by doing water changes. In fact I would do them more often and keep the ammonia around 1-2ppm. I cycled my tank in 13 days while doing daily water changes to keep it below 2ppm ammo.

The only thing you can do now is wait. If your LFS carries Bio-Spira (refrigerated) that will instantly give you the bacteria you need. As well, I'd turn the heat up just slightly to 78-80.

[pinsonpa]

Well I guess you already know what you did wrong with rinsing

I've heard not to rinse existing filter media (for fear of killing off beneficial bacteria), but what's the problem with rinsing a brand new filter pad before it's ever been in the tank? I think the pads for my Penguin Bio-Wheel filter even suggest that you rinse them prior to first use.

By the way...Welcome to the AC NWNittany! I raise my glass to another hobbiest from the NW :19: (I grew up in Lake Oswego).

[MandyL]

OH good catch! I thought he rinsed the existing media!

Did you replace the media with new stuff then? You shouldn't get an ammo spike from rinsing new media and adding it along with the old stuff. Unless there was enough chlorine on the new media that killed the bacteria on the old media, but I don't know if that would happen...

[gm72]

It sounds like when you changed the filter bags you got rid of the majority of your bacteria colony. Your stocking is high anyway, and the remaining bacteria could never keep up with the bioload. The water changing schedule you mention is also not enough. Weekly 40-50% changes are the accepted norm unless it is a heavily planted tank.

The hot water, rinsing a new bag, had nothing to do with it.

Ammonia at 4 ppm is still too high. Horrible environment for the fish, particularly the bottom dwellers ("scaleless" loaches). Really should be down to 1 ppm, 2 max.

As for your current results, there are nitrItes, you just aren't catching them. NitrItes are converted to nitrAtes. Remember that there are several bacteria working here--those that convert ammonia to Ite and those that convert Ite to Ate.

Keep up with your water changes to keep your ammonia down.

[bandittcj]

I would have a larger filter. I know the box may say filter x is good for tanks of certain sizes. I look at the water flow. I always use filters or combination of filters that turn the water over 10 times an hour. Adding filter media will cut that flow by 10-15%. That's just the way I set up my tanks and really never have any problems. I'm a firm believer in over filtering.

[nwnittany]

First of all, thanks for the comments/suggestions.

Just to clarify, the filter media I rinsed was a new one. So, I guess the major loss was in just switching from one that had alot of bacteria to one that didn't. I was just guessing that by rinsing the new one in hot tap water somehow compromised it for future use.

OK, sounds like the consensus is to keep up with the water changes to maintain ammonia < 2ppm. I'll do this.

gm72 - one question about the nitrites. I know they get converted to nitrates, but is it instantaneous ? Wouldn't I see some nitrites that are still in the process of being converted ? Or maybe the tank is just in a state where the nitrite -> nitrate converting bacteria are sufficient to handle the load that the ammonia ->nitrite converting bacteria generate ?


One more question to everyone. Once I get over this hurdle (fingers crossed) what do I do when I need to change my filter media to prevent this happening again ? Maybe just leave the old bag in the tank ?

[Lady Hobbs]

You have 15 fish in a 20 gallon tank not counting the frogs. Decorations and plants are taking up probably 5 gallons of that tank size. And you also have occassional fry. More ammonia.

Your filter is large enough for possibly a 10 gallon tank max. If it's rated for 20 gallon, you can figure about half. If you had 3 or 4 fish, that filter might be fine but not for 15 fish, 2 frogs and fry........and snails and shrimp.

You are way over stocked. In the beginning, your water parmeters were probably OK until you added more fish and cleaning the bacteria from the filter set you back. Over feeding also causes ammonia so feed sparingly.

You'll going to have to do another cycle now but for heavens sakes, don't get more fish. Rinse your season filter media out in tank water. Not tap water.

[Commodore 64]

If your current filter only has 1 bag/cartridge then you are pretty much removing all your good bacteria each time you swap out filter media. Adding the air sponge was a good idea, we had to do that with our 12 gallon Eclipse tank.

Following advice here, I picked up a Fluval 305 to supplement my old WD4000 HOB filter for my 55g. I've been pleased with the results, although I never had any ammonia problems when I just ran the WDF 4000 with a UGF, I was pleased to sh!tcan the UGF.

I would suggest either supplementing your current filter with another, or getting a larger one with multiple filter boxes (like an Aquaclear 110), so you can just change out one at a time. That said, I've never replaced a trickle sponge in my WDF 4000 in the past 3 years, I just rinse them and shake them out in a ziploc bag full of aquarium water when they get clogged. I do the same with the Filter Cartridges too. I think it's better for the tank, and really limits the cost of expendable media.

[Sasquatch]

As with the other posters, what stuck out was the filter. It is much too small for your tank. I would, at the minimum, get another filter of the same size. Once the bacteria get established, rinse the filters alternately so you always have one that's fully colonized.

A few other little things (that likely had nothing to do with the ammonia ... )
- If you have plants, try not to use carbon filter media, it leachs out the nutrients they need
- You don't need to be adding salt to your tank. None of your fish need it and in the case of the cories, loaches and possibly the frogs, it's likely doing more harn than good.

Hope this helps and keep us posted.

[MandyL]

I agree, I really don't think there are many good reasons to completely exchange your media for new stuff. Just an occassional rinse in a bucket of old tank water. If you absolutely have to change the media, I would even cut it in half so you replace only half. This is if you are using a sponge, but it sounds like you are using some sort of bag with carbon included? Is there a seperate sponge at all? You should know that generally carbon is not needed and sometimes detrimental. A sponge and maybe some bio-media is all you need. That's the best actually, because you can change your sponge and keep the old bio-media and not have adverse effects.

[nwnittany]

OK, sounds like the recommendations are:

- ditch the salt
- keep the daily water changes going until the cycle is complete
- get another filter
- get some more fish (just kidding).


I appreciate all the help. I'll give an update in a few days.

[nwnittany]

Here's another thought.

There's a great independent fish store in my town (for anyone in the Portland, OR area, the place is called PDX Fish Guys). I don't know for sure, but I think there's a chance I could get them to give me some 'biological help'. Maybe some stones or some filter media.

The problem is, I don't know exactly what to ask for. Should I ask for some stones ? I piece of their sponge ?

I did a 25% change tonight and it looks like the ammonia is down to between 1-2 ppm. The fish generally seem fine, although the one cory (an albino) is pretty inactive and I saw him sprint across the tank a few times.

Once again, I appreciate the help. I know you guys get a ton of questions on this topic. FWIW, the whole water quality thing seems to be part science and part art.

[nwnittany]

For those keeping score at home:

Wed 5/28, PM: ammo was > 4ppm. did a 25% change. post-change test had the ammo at ~2ppm

Thu 5/28, AM: ammo ~2ppm, nitrite 0, nitrate between 5-10ppm. Fish generally seem OK. Albino cory was pretty quiet on the bottom. Did another 25% change, sans salt. Will test it tonight when everything settles.

Oh yeah, at the risk of getting shunned, I need to point out that I missed two fish in my tank description - two gourami (one is good-sized). So the tank is certainly fully or overloaded. Gonna try to get out and get another filter tonight.

[MandyL]

The problem is, I don't know exactly what to ask for. Should I ask for some stones ? I piece of their sponge ?



Sponge is best, or any used filter media. If that's not possible, some substrate that you can hang in a nylon is next best.

[nwnittany]

Sponge is best, or any used filter media. If that's not possible, some substrate that you can hang in a nylon is next best.

OK, sounds good. I'll see if they think I'm spongeworthy.... (sorry, couldn't resist)...

[Commodore 64]

OK, sounds good. I'll see if they think I'm spongeworthy.... (sorry, couldn't resist)...

Careful, you're showing your age!

[Sasquatch]

Any kind of sponge media will do the job, it should be loaded with bacteria.

Also, with the Whisper filter cartridges, I don't think it's an option to go without carbon, it's incorporated IIRC. That means you don't have a choice about changing the media, the carbon get old and doesn't do anything anymore, and if water quality changes it can actually release everything it's absorbed back into the tank.

If you're going for a new filter, try an find an Aquaclear brand. They pretty much get the thumbs of from just about everyone, and you can pick and choose the media you put in it, great filters all 'round.

[gm72]

gm72 - one question about the nitrites. I know they get converted to nitrates, but is it instantaneous ? Wouldn't I see some nitrites that are still in the process of being converted ? Or maybe the tank is just in a state where the nitrite -> nitrate converting bacteria are sufficient to handle the load that the ammonia ->nitrite converting bacteria generate ?

Not instantaneous, no. You should indeed see some nitrItes present unless you completely missed that part of the cycle. A stable tank will read 0 ammonia, 0 Ites, and some Ates.

[nwnittany]

Also, with the Whisper filter cartridges, I don't think it's an option to go without carbon, it's incorporated IIRC. That means you don't have a choice about changing the media, the carbon get old and doesn't do anything anymore, and if water quality changes it can actually release everything it's absorbed back into the tank.

If you're going for a new filter, try an find an Aquaclear brand. They pretty much get the thumbs of from just about everyone, and you can pick and choose the media you put in it, great filters all 'round.

FWIW, the Whisper 20 I have uses 'bio bags' which are white, cottony pouches that have one open end in which the carbon is inserted. They have a plastic sealer to close that end. Additionally, there's a separate rectangular sponge that gets inserted adjacent to the bio bag in the filter. So, I guess it's possible to just replace the carbon, but I don't think this is their intention (when you buy a bio bag refill, you get both the sealed container of carbon as well as a new pouch).

Also FWIW, I jumped the gun and got an additional Whisper 20. I discovered I could fit two of them in my hood and I have a small arsonal of replacement bio bags that fit the Whisper 20's. So, the new game plan is to go with two Whisper 20's, a small sponge filter, and to get some loaded media from the local fish specialty store.

[kaoticice]

It's best to purchase a HOB filters rather than internals for many reasons. They have bigger capacity of media, hence higher concentration of beneficial bacteria. Internal filter actually waste space in the aquarium, while HOB adds additional water (by a bit) to the tank. etc, etc.

Sponge is great, but i believe for a better bio-media ceramic rings will house larger population of beneficial bacteria. Some sponges like polyfibres is pretty good as well.

Ed

[Gemstone]

Ouch....seems the flash hit the pan with the cleaning of the bio filter...NEVER...clean out with any water other than your tank water...destroys all the bacteria.

Have you got a pump for cleaning out the bottom of the tank?? It gets rid of all the fish poop as you put it :hmm3grin2orange:

When introducing new fish to your tank remember that the water in the pet shops are not as yours in the tank...and they need to be introduded slowly...letting in little of the tank's water at a time after the temperatures have been made compatable. I also never mix a pet shop's water with mine...I take the fish out with a net and then put it into my tank. I have had the unfortunate experience of adding contaminated water to my tank before..

Hope you get things stabalized soon!!!:11:

[terrapin24h]

i'm still a rookie myself but my 30 gal (with 9 fish so far) is stable and clear, so far. I use an emp 280 filter with biowheel and watching the wheel change with the cycle was pretty awesome. You might want to reconsider your filter choice and go with a bio wheel type system, as you never touch the bio wheel even when cleaning/changing the cart. Mine also has a second slot that a carrier goes in to hold loose carbon and such; and i just leave it in empty figuring more surface area for bacteria. You could then take your other filters and start a couple of smaller tanks with them, and maybe spread yer fish out a bit. From the looks of things, your tank as it is now could be prone to these kinds of wild swings in the future. Just thinkin out, and hopin yer critters tough it out

--chris

[nwnittany]

All the fish seem to be doing fine. The fish seem a bit more active, but this might be because I raised the water temperature a degree or two (from 76 to 77-78).

The additional filter us up and running. So, I now have two Whisper 20's (HOB) and a small in-tank sponge filter.

I'm feeding once a day and the food gets gobbled up quickly. I have some cory's and loaches, so I supplement with a few pellets that will make it to the bottom for them. As an aside, I always wonder if the loaches are getting food, because I rarely see them.... only at night. But they are the coolest things (no pun intended).

I've been waiting until the ammonia gets between 2-4 ppm and then I do a couple of daily 25% changes (I use a siphon, so I vacuum up all the junk in the substrate). After a couple of days of 25% changes, the ammonia level drops to a ~1ppm.

I think I mentioned earlier that my pH is low (about 6.2). This is a bit of a mystery to me, since it comes out of the tap around 7 and after I've treated it and let it set for a day, it still reads 7. So, something in the tank is lowering it. This is true even when I'm doing frequent water changes.

In all cases, the nitrites are 0 and the nitrates are between 5-10.

So, we'll see. So far the good news is that the fish are fine. I guess the bad news is that I don't see any signs of the cycle progressing.

I'll hit the local fish specialty shop tomorrow and try to get something with some good bacteria on it to seed my tank.

Fingers crossed !

[MandyL]

You're lucky to have that low pH. The ammonia and nitrite are way less toxic when the pH is lower.

[nwnittany]

You're lucky to have that low pH. The ammonia and nitrite are way less toxic when the pH is lower.

Yup, I gotta figure that's been what's keeping the fish alive.

Anyone know if the low pH has any effect on the cycle ? Are there any obvious reasons why the pH of the tank is so much lower than the water source ?

[MandyL]

I don't think it would effect the cycle except making it less toxic. Do you have driftwood in the tank? That's the only thing I can think of that would lower it without adding something purposely to do it.

[nwnittany]

I don't think it would effect the cycle except making it less toxic. Do you have driftwood in the tank? That's the only thing I can think of that would lower it without adding something purposely to do it.

No driftwood. I put a picture of the tank in the photo gallery: nwnittany's ammonia reservoir ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) so you can get a feel for what's in the tank.

The guys at the local specialty store said they'd heard other local reports of people getting pH 7.0 out of the tap and then having it drop to low 6's in the tank (same situation as me). I guess the water lacks buffer, which would explain the sudden drop, but doesn't really explain what is causing the low pH.

The pointed out one thing that I might be doing wrong. I've been leaving the carbon in my filters (the Whisper filters have this bio-bag that has carbon in it along with a separate synthetic sponge pad for the bacteria media). So, I removed the bio-bags and left the bacteria media. I guess the logic is the carbon could be removing the biology helpers (API stress zyme) or maybe holding and releasing something that is messing up the cycle. Seems like a bit of a stretch, but I'm in my third week of high ammonia and 0 nitrites.

[Ryuu]

Hope it works out! Sorry think the question was anwsered, just giving luck

[Latoria Wise]

I am new to the fish tank I have a 10 gallon tank I have the following
2 swordtails merigold
2 mollies
2mickeys
1 algae eater
2 tetras(i think)
3 very small fish with a blue line going straight across the body
Is that too many fish and i have tested the water and got the foloowing results using the kit
Ammonia is 1.0
Nitrate is 5.0
Ph is 7.6
Nitrite is .50
The fish have been in tank about 3 or 4 days

[Ryuu]

Immediatly do a water change of 50 percent and test again, ammonia will eventually kill the fish. And its a little eoverstocked I would encourage you to buy a 20-30g

P.S. Did you cycle the tank first?

[Latoria Wise]

When changing the water what type of water to replace it with and how long should that water sit before adding it in and when cahanging to a lager tank do you add the same water or must you set uo with new water

[Latoria Wise]

Immediatly do a water change of 50 percent and test again, ammonia will eventually kill the fish. And its a little eoverstocked I would encourage you to buy a 20-30g

P.S. Did you cycle the tank first?
yes i did cycle it but i believe we added the fish in to fast we had fish and then added some more in 2 days they didnt tell us how to add the fish in

[nwnittany]

When changing the water what type of water to replace it with and how long should that water sit before adding it in and when cahanging to a lager tank do you add the same water or must you set uo with new water
Latoria,

I'm not an expert and am probably not the best person to respond, but the others on this forum aren't shy and will correct me if I'm wrong.

I think your tank is overcrowded. I've heard the general rule of thumb is 1 inch of fish requires two gallons of tank (water). I've also heard that with today's filters and a mix of bottom feeders,etc you can stretch it to 1 inch per gallon. In general, it's better to err on the fewer fish side of things.

I always use tap water with a water treatment to remove the chlorine (and sometimes ammonia). I usually let mine sit at lest overnight, but I don't think this is required if you use the additive.

With your ammonia at 1.0 and a high pH, I think the conditions are rough on the fish. I'd do an immediate water change (I normally do it increments of 25%) to get the ammonia down.

[Latoria Wise]

Thank you very much and i am getting another tank to put some fish in and i am changing the water:19:

[MandyL]

How did you cycle it? With fish or ammonia? How long did it take to complete the cycle (0ammonia, 0nitrite, some number of nitrates)?

The swordtails and mollies will get around 4-5" each, way too big for your tank. A 30gal would be better for them.

Do you know what the algae eater, or can you describe it/show us a picture? They vary from otos that stay around 1.5", and plecos that can get at least 14" up to 24".

I am new to the fish tank I have a 10 gallon tank I have the following
2 swordtails merigold
2 mollies
2mickeys
1 algae eater
2 tetras(i think)
3 very small fish with a blue line going straight across the body
Is that too many fish and i have tested the water and got the foloowing results using the kit
Ammonia is 1.0
Nitrate is 5.0
Ph is 7.6
Nitrite is .50
The fish have been in tank about 3 or 4 days

[nwnittany]

Still a mixed bag here.

On the plus side, the fish seem to be fine. Other than getting peeved at me for during all the water changes, they seem fine. In fact, they seem a bit more active (and not in a stressed way), probably because I raised the temp a coupla degrees (now it's a steady 78).

On the negative side, we still have increasing ammonia (it will get up 2-4ppm if I skip water changes for 2 days) and I still see ZERO nitrites. The 'trates get up to 10ppm when the ammonia is at 2-4ppm and then drops to 5ppm after a a couple of 25% changes. Keep in mind my pH is very low (6.0-6-2) which is the only thing I can think of that's keeping the fish alive.

I did two 25% changes today (one morning and one at night) because the ammonia was between 2-4ppm. It's now down to between .5 and 1ppm (I have a business trip for a few days and wanted to leave the wife with a clean ship).

I've also removed the carbon from the filters (they still have biological media in them). For any wondering if the carbon actually does anything, I can tell you firsthand that it does. In just one day without it, I've seen the algae increase quite a bit and the water is a bit cloudier. Still very manageable though.

I guess my biggest concern is the lack of any progress towards a the cycle. I would sure have hoped to see the nitrites pick up by now.

For those wondering, the master plan is to get an additional, bigger tank in a couple of months (the exact size is a matter of debate.... kids want 55, Dad wants 40, Mom wants to stick with the 20).

I'm sure this is boring everyone, but maybe once this sorts out it will help out another beginner. If nothing else, it should teach everyone to not overload their tanks!!

[nwnittany]

Well, I'm about to pull-out my few remaining hairs.

Last night I measured the ammo at between .5 and 1ppm (see the post before this). I wake up and test this morning and it's close to 2ppm. This is after two 25% changes yesterday !

I'd resumed daily feeing sometime last week (I'd gone with just 2 feedings in 5 days) but I guess I need to cut way back again.

This is one seriously messed up tank right now.

[terrapin24h]

do you maybe have something consuming the nitrite that is in the tank(that would explain growing nitrate and ammonia but no nitrite)? Maybe an algae of some sort, or some other critter? If you are getting nitrate, there has to be nitrite in the water somewhere, maybe it's getting chemically locked by your water conditioner? Or some fancy filter media somewhere(I can buy loose rocks to go in my filter that will lock up ammonia and such and can mess up test kits). In fact, using an ammo lock product might not be a bad idea right now in your special situation. I can't see how you can have ammonia and nitrate but not have any nitrite. IIRC stress coat locks up ammonia, so you might want to try some of it or a similar product. Keep us posted; as a fellow newbie i'm anxious to see how you make out!

--chris

[Evil Slimy]

A lot of ammonia removers will give you false reading on ammonia test kits. It sounds like you are doing the right things to fix the problem, so it seems strange that those would be 'true' ammonia readings.

Maybe you can test by filling a small container with tap water. Test it for ammonia. Then add the ammonia remover you are/were using and test it again to see if you get a different reading. I'd be curious to see what it says.

[nwnittany]

do you maybe have something consuming the nitrite that is in the tank(that would explain growing nitrate and ammonia but no nitrite)? .. ... .. Or some fancy filter media somewhere(I can buy loose rocks to go in my filter that will lock up ammonia and such and can mess up test kits). In fact, using an ammo lock product might not be a bad idea right now in your special situation. I can't see how you can have ammonia and nitrate but not have any nitrite. IIRC stress coat locks up ammonia, so you might want to try some of it or a similar product. Keep us posted; as a fellow newbie i'm anxious to see how you make out!

--chris

This is exactly what I've been wondering.

I've heard people say that using ammonia treatments (e.g., ammo lock) can "mess up" the test kits. I always assumed they meant that while the ammonia would be transformed to a less toxic form, it would still register as ammonia by the test kit. In other words, the ammonia reading would stay the same. And, I also assumed they meant it wouldn't affect the other parameters (like nitrite).

Any of the seasoned pro's have a take on this ? Would ammo lock or stress zyme cause an inflated (more than the pre-treated water) ammonia measurement ? Would it affect the nitrite measurement ?

[nwnittany]

Maybe you can test by filling a small container with tap water. Test it for ammonia. Then add the ammonia remover you are/were using and test it again to see if you get a different reading. I'd be curious to see what it says.

Now, that there sounds like a good idea. I'll give it a try when I get back from my trip in a few days.

Thanks !

[nwnittany]

Haven't had a chance to do the test yet to see if there's any ammo lock side effect that would cause bogus ammonia or nitrite readings (other than showing the locked ammonia as regular ammonia).

Ammonia STILL jumps from 1ppm to 2ppm if I go two days without a water change (this was with normal feeding).

The latest actions were:

- did another 25% change
- reverting back to a greatly reduced diet
- found homes for 2 of the 4 guppy fry and think the other 2 will find a home tomorrow.

[terrapin24h]

This is exactly what I've been wondering.
...
Any of the seasoned pro's have a take on this ? Would ammo lock or stress zyme cause an inflated (more than the pre-treated water) ammonia measurement ? Would it affect the nitrite measurement ?

Ok, i've looked into this, as i got curious about it. Ammo lock type products mess up just about any test kit, as they can not differentiate between bad ammonia and ammonium, and give a reading for total ammonia. So after you have treated water using a product that locks it(or if you are using ammo lock type products) your kit still sees it. Apparently, there are two basic types of test kits, Nessler and Salicylate. Nesslers always give a bad reading and Salicylate kits will only be accurate if the water is tested right after you mix it. After a few minutes, it too will read bad. Check out these articles:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Additionally, I saw that alot of these products actually create ammonium in the process of breaking down chloramine(chloramine-chlorine=ammonia is how one person put it).

Based on what you've said and what i've read i think your low ammonia readings are prob from your water changes and such. If you just let it set for a few days, does the ammonia level climb? If so, it's probably a legit issue and youll need to deal with it. If you can get your PH below 7 then your ammonia will be "safe" as it would be in the form of ammonium. Hope this helps a bit

--chris

[nwnittany]

Based on what you've said and what i've read i think your low ammonia readings are prob from your water changes and such. If you just let it set for a few days, does the ammonia level climb? If so, it's probably a legit issue and youll need to deal with it. If you can get your PH below 7 then your ammonia will be "safe" as it would be in the form of ammonium. Hope this helps a bit

--chris

If I let things sit for 1-2 days, the ammonia readings from the API liquid test kit will show a big increase of ammonia. For example, I typically do 25% changes to get the ammonia reading down to 1ppm. After 2 days of no changes, it will rise up to between 2ppm-4ppm.

So, my conclusion (and that of most of the other posters) is that I destroyed by biology when I changed the removal filter media (the thing holding the carbon) and then rinsed the 'permanent' foam insert in hot tap water (this was the real bafoonary).

My pH is very, very low - between 6.0 and 6.2 (this is another mystery, but I'm setting this aside until I get the biology back). So, this has been a great aide in keeping the fish from ammonia poisoning.

My strategy to fix this mess has been twofold. First, I've been using ammolock and doing 25% changes when the test kits indicate >2ppm of ammonia. I'll bet I have the clearest water in town ! Between this and the pH, the fish seem to be doing just fine.

Second, I've been trying to cycle the tank. I've added a two filters and am doing the stress zyme thing. I'm basically nowhere on this front. It's been two weeks since I added the extra filters and I still don't see any nitrite reading, which I would expect to see.

I was hoping to discover that something I was doing (e.g., ammo lock) was causing a nitrite misreading, and that the nitrites were really there, but I just wasn't seeing them. At least this scenario would give me some confidence the cycle was starting to take hold.

Thanks for looking into this and posting what you found. I'll take a look at the articles.

Sometimes I gotta step back and laugh at this. All of this is for a 20 gallon tank filled with pretty common community fish ! I've never been a "fish person"....I got started in this for my son, who loves it (he's a bit too young to follow all the details of the water quality issue we have). In any case, I've somehow gotten hooked and find this current challenge as a fun problem to crack. I've found I've gotten attached to the fish, too.

[nwnittany]

Arg...found the female swordtail at the bottom of the tank today. I chalk this up as the first casualty from this ammonia affair. This fish seemed very happy and seemed to be acting normally. I don't know how long it had been dead, but when I saw it (my wife had removed it from the tank) it looked pretty dark.

Interestingly, there were new fry in the tank. Not sure if they are guppies or platy's (both are carrying). Just what I needed !

Ammonia levels were back up above 2ppm. 0 nitrites and maybe a little over 5 nitrates.

I tested the water source (tap water) and it read slightly above 0ppm , but far less than .25 (the next level in my test kit). It has always read 0 in the past, but I don't think this has any bearing on the problem.

Just for kicks, I treated 5 gallons with ammo lock and retested and it read .25ppm. So, it looks like the ammo lock converted something to non-toxic ammonia (ammonium ?). So, this might be affecting my readings to some extent, but again, I don't think this is the problem. I just can't seem to get the biology to take.

[skinni]

i didnt read this entire thread but one reason you could be seeing ammonia and nitrate with no nitrite is that you have the nitrite to nitrate bacteria well enough established that it is eliminating the nitrite before it is tracable in the water. I seeded my 55 gallon tank with a filter from another established tank and never saw nitrites at all... ammonia was seemingly converted directly to nitrate, when in reality the bacteria for converting nitrite to nitrate was well enough established that it was converting it before i could see it.

[nwnittany]

A bad morning here.

When I went to bed last night, one platy wasn't doing very well. The dorsal fin was clamped down and she was either hiding at the bottom or at the surface.

When I checked the tank this morning, it was in a state I'd never seen. Most of the fish were hanging at the surface. Including the two coolie loach ! I rarely see these guys at all, let alone at the top. Everyone was alive, but obviously something was up.

I couldn't find a platy that was struggling last night, so I guessed it died and some remains were at the surface and everyone was picking at them. But, I couldn't find any remains.

I checked the water quality and it stank (as usual). The ammonia read above 4.0 (as a reminder, I'm using ammo lock and my pH is very low - 6.0-6.2). Even though I'm trying to stabilize the tank and get the cycle going, I felt I needed to do something drastic, so I did a 50% change. I'm still getting junk from the gravel, so I did a pretty thorough vacuum over maybe half the substrate.

Oh yeah, I found the platy in one of the decorations. Interestingly, she was still alive, but sluggish.

I think our next step is to get the majority of the fish out of the tank and take them to the local fish specialty store (for those in the Portland area, the best one I've found is PDX Fish Guys). They have a rescue program, and hopefully after the tank settles, I can get 'em back.

Anyone every seen coolie loaches at the TOP of the tank ???

[Dixie]

This is the first time I've read this thread but I started at the beginning and read all the way through. I'm really sorry you are having so much trouble.

I know you don't want your fish to suffer but you'll need a source of ammonia to get the tank cycled. Are you planning on using bottled ammonia?

Sorry I can't remember but did you ever get the used filter media from the fish shop? I'd try to get as much as possible. I recently cycled a 10g. tank using stress zyme (which I've heard is worthless) used media, some plastic plants and ornaments from my 55g. tank. It worked great.

Maybe the fish shop you use sells refrigerated Biospira. It's suppose to work super good. Good luck. I hope you get your tanks problem fixed and get your fish back soon.

[nwnittany]

Dixie,

I didn't take all the fish in to the rescue. I kept two gourami, four cory, and two coolie loaches (so, two top/mid water and six bottom feeders).

I never got any media from the LFS. I've been talking with them for a few weeks now and their take is that something in the water source has changed that is both killing the bacteria that converts ammonia-->nitrite and is killing the buffer (which is why they think the pH is so low). So, I got some water from a different source and we'll see what happens. Their take is that is I never see any nitrite at all (which I haven't) then it's something more than just re-cycle.

So, we'll see. If this keeps up another week I think I'm just gonna get another tank and start from scratch with it (and hope the remaining fish survive so I can move 'em over. Then again, if it's something in the water source, then this won't help.

I haven't called the local water department yet (I always considered this theory to be a longshot) but I guess it's worth a try.....

[terrapin24h]

Dixie,
I never got any media from the LFS. I've been talking with them for a few weeks now and their take is that something in the water source has changed that is both killing the bacteria that converts ammonia-->nitrite and is killing the buffer (which is why they think the pH is so low). So, I got some water from a different source and we'll see what happens. Their take is that is I never see any nitrite at all (which I haven't) then it's something more than just re-cycle.


As i've been reading this, i've been thinking the same thing. Your ph is low(maybe too low for your fish???) and you are using ammo lock, so the stress can't be from ammonia poisoning. There has to be something else. Lots of muni water supplies have all kinds of junk in them that is not good for fish. Is there any way you could get some R-O water from your LFS? How about distilled water at the grocery store? Hope you figure it out

--chris

[nwnittany]

Chris,

The low pH stood out to the guys at the local specialty store. They sent me home with 10 gallons of their bottled water (apparently this stuff has no buffer) as well as some powder to increase the buffer.

I did another 50% change (I had done one earlier in the day as well....this was the morning the loaches were at the top in some plants) and added the buffer powder and the pH shot up to 7.6. Now, I know this adds yet another kind of stress (from the unstable pH). Had I known it would have changed this much I never would have used it. In any case, everyone seemed to be fine. The ammonia tested at about .5ppm with 0 'trites.

The next day (24-26 hours later) the ammonia was close to 4ppm still with 0 nitrites. My fish count is less than half from a few days ago (albeit, I was overloaded then). I'm at: two gourami, four cory, and two coolie loach.

I'm almost afraid to test this morning....

It sure seems to me that there's the potential for something to be in the water that is lowering the pH and/or killing some of the nitrifying bacteria. Oddly, the pH is 7 out of the tap. It just drops once it's been in the tank.

[nwnittany]

Well, I just tested this morning and there's been an interesting coupla developments.

First, the pH dropped from 7.6 to 6.8. No idea why, but I'm glad it dropped since my guys have been used to 6.2. Still a significant different, but better.

Second, I saw my first twinge of nitrites. looks like .25ppm. Nitrates are still at 5ppm (this has been consistent throughout the ordeal). The ammonia is high - about 4ppm.

Now, I guess the question is, why ? Here's the basics:

Sat: two 50% water changes, including adding 50% of bottled water and some buffer up.

Sun: no nitrites, ammonia up from Sat. So, I added some ammo-lock and biozyme (the powder stuff from petco). The biozyme clouded the water like crazy. Biozyme is a very poor man's bio-spira.

Mon: we have some nitrites. And, very high ammonia. So, I added some ammo-lock to help keep the fish alive.

I guess the question is - which was it ?

Another question is, when should I do another water chance and with what water ? I guess I'll try to get 10 gallons of the bottled stuff....

I checked my logs about the nitrite. I've had the tank since September of 2007. I started keeping the logs in March of 2008. This is the first time I had recorded any nitrites at all (keep in mind the tank was balanced up until May of this year).

Exciting day. Let's see where this leads us...

[Sasquatch]

Chris,

The low pH stood out to the guys at the local specialty store. They sent me home with 10 gallons of their bottled water (apparently this stuff has no buffer) as well as some powder to increase the buffer.

I did another 50% change (I had done one earlier in the day as well....this was the morning the loaches were at the top in some plants) and added the buffer powder and the pH shot up to 7.6. Now, I know this adds yet another kind of stress (from the unstable pH). Had I known it would have changed this much I never would have used it. In any case, everyone seemed to be fine. The ammonia tested at about .5ppm with 0 'trites.

The next day (24-26 hours later) the ammonia was close to 4ppm still with 0 nitrites. My fish count is less than half from a few days ago (albeit, I was overloaded then). I'm at: two gourami, four cory, and two coolie loach.

I'm almost afraid to test this morning....

It sure seems to me that there's the potential for something to be in the water that is lowering the pH and/or killing some of the nitrifying bacteria. Oddly, the pH is 7 out of the tap. It just drops once it's been in the tank.

Quite the problem. You could try and do the water changes for a while with buffered distilled water to see if it changes anything. It'll take a week for the bateria to grow though ... that can be a fair amount of water to lug around.

As for the pH of the tapwater changing, that's pretty normal. There are always some dissolved gasses that'll be liberated and a new equilibrium will be reached, often with a different pH.

[smoochxoxo]

What do you have in your filter? Does your filter have seperate places for different medias? Do you have just carbon? Sometimes these filter pouches contain more than just carbon. Bio 3 contains zeolite to help remove ammonia and convert it to a less toxic form so bacteria can still use it but it wont be toxic to fish.

You have plants ( live if I read correctly) do you have any type of driftwood or peat moss anywhere in your tank? This might lead to PH shifts?

The buffer powders is that made by seachem? One is a acid buffer and the other is a alkalinity buffer. To be honest if you have only one of those and not using it with the other that is another place where your ph will stay very unstable. My lfs said it is a no no to use one with out some of the other.

I didn't read the whole thread but skimmed over most of your posts... did you test your tap water? Maybe there is nitrates which is why you are seeing nitrates in your tank... also check for Ammonia. Some water has 1.0 to 2.0 ppm of ammonia in the tap so This might be another reason for your higher ammonia and reason behind the unstable ph.
These are istances I have read about in the past I wanted to pass along to you. If you have already heard them I am sorry but I hope you find the solution and fast!
GL Hugs

[nwnittany]

What do you have in your filter? Does your filter have seperate places for different medias? Do you have just carbon? Sometimes these filter pouches contain more than just carbon. Bio 3 contains zeolite to help remove ammonia and convert it to a less toxic form so bacteria can still use it but it wont be toxic to fish.

You have plants ( live if I read correctly) do you have any type of driftwood or peat moss anywhere in your tank? This might lead to PH shifts?



Smooch,

The Whisper filters have two removal filtration components. The first is a black sponge-like thing that they claim is the biological media (their marketing department claims it has a unique "3D surface" that supports bacteria growth) . The second is the carbon bag, which is a porous white bag that fresh carbon is inserted. Both are roughly 4" X 6" and sit flush with each other in the filter. I don't think there are any other chemicals in the carbon.

I have four live plants (all the same). I don't know the name of them, but they are basically stalks with long, (maybe 10") light-green leaves. They are doing just fine throughout all of this. I got the plants at petco in the aquatic plant section, so I assume they are good. I guess I've had them for 3-4 months now.

I don't recall the buffer powder - it might very well be seachem.

The tap water generally tests out as such: 0 ammonia (although I have seen it at .25), 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, pH 7.

I am wondering if there is some linkage between the low pH and the lack of nitrites.

[nwnittany]

I think things are progressing.

The tank is cloudy (this is the bloom ?). The ammonia was very high tonight - between 4ppm and 8ppm (the darkest green I've seen it get). The nitrites were still present (.25) and the nitrates were hanging in there at 5ppm.

I did a 25% change because the ammonia was so high. I've been using ammo-lock, but I feel better doing changes when it gets this high. I retested after the change and the ammonia was still high (2-4ppm) and the nitrites were still there.

I used the bottled water for my change. My pH has been dropping (for those keeping score, it comes out of the tap at 7, but immediately drops in the tank to 6.0-6.2; when I added buffer up with the bottled water, it shot up to 7.6, but has been dropping each day).

It seems like I might finally be on my way to a cycle.

If I somehow survive this, I feel a case of mts coming on....

[terrapin24h]

the bloom is a good sign! Your ammonia eating bacteria is cranking up! Don't fret about it, it will be like that for a while(maybe up to a week) and then one day you'll wake up and it will be crystal clear. At that point you'll be well on your way. Glad to hear it's finally started

--chris

[nwnittany]

Tonight's measurements:

ammonia: 4-8ppm (treating with ammo lock)
nitrites: .5 (!!)
nitrates: 5ppm (would have hoped to see these rise)
pH: 7.0

Water is still a little murky/cloudy. I'm just so happy to see some nitrites.

I'm starting to think the low pH was a factor in preventing the cycle....

What are the prevailing thoughts on water changes during a cycle ?

[Sasquatch]

With fish in the tank, water changes are essential to keep them alive, so keep it up.

You're getting there. The nitrites showing up is a good sign.

[nwnittany]

25% change w/bottled water last night (after the measurements).

This morning's reading:

Ammonia: off the chart..at least 8ppm
Nitrites: .5 (was hoping for more, but at least it didn't drop)
Nitrates: 5ppm (also was hoping for more)
pH: 6.6 (no idea why this keeps dropping, unless this is just the 'normal' drop that occurs due to gases)
temp: 78

The water doesn't seem as cloudy as the first bloom day, but this might just be me getting used to it.

I treated again with ammo lock. This tank creates a ton of ammonia. I'm feeding once a day and not very much. I siphoned last night just 10 minutes after feeding....

But, it seems like we are starting to get somewhere.

[terrapin24h]

glad to hear it's moving, you may have to up your % water change to 30%. Thank goodness for ammo lock, eh? What kind of a filter do you have? I'm really thinking a bio-media filter is right for you(once you get the thing cycled you want to support as much as you can) Standard rules apply, by one bigger than you tank, etc. The Ph thing is troubling too. My tank does the same thing but it only drops from 7.0(tap) to 6.8(tank) and it's solid there. I wonder why yours keeps dropping.

--chris

[nwnittany]

glad to hear it's moving, you may have to up your % water change to 30%. Thank goodness for ammo lock, eh? What kind of a filter do you have? I'm really thinking a bio-media filter is right for you(once you get the thing cycled you want to support as much as you can) Standard rules apply, by one bigger than you tank, etc. The Ph thing is troubling too. My tank does the same thing but it only drops from 7.0(tap) to 6.8(tank) and it's solid there. I wonder why yours keeps dropping.

--chris

I think I'd have lost the entire tank if it weren't for ammo lock. I still might suffer some more casualties (fingers crossed). The test kit reads a very, very solid green.

My filter situation is interesting. I have two HOB Whisper 20's, which use disposable carbon bags and separate sponge-like thing for the biology. I also have a small in-tank sponge filter. Originally, I just had one Whisper 20 and the folks in the forums set me straight :-)

I'm going to run an experiment tonight on the tap water. I'm going to measure it straight from the tap, then aerate it overnight and measure again.

My lfs said they've heard others complain of this and he recommended getting some oyster shells (I guess these will self-regulate the pH - dissolving when the pH gets to low and stopping when it gets too high).

[terrapin24h]

i was doing some reading that was saying that hardness and ph are linked. High hardness=low ph, so do you have anything in tank that could be driving up your hardness(rocks, etc) and thereby driving down your ph? Do you have any driftwood? I read that can alter ph too(not sure up/down, i think down)

--chris

[nwnittany]

i was doing some reading that was saying that hardness and ph are linked. High hardness=low ph, so do you have anything in tank that could be driving up your hardness(rocks, etc) and thereby driving down your ph? Do you have any driftwood? I read that can alter ph too(not sure up/down, i think down)

--chris

No driftwood and no goofy rocks (all were from the aquarium section of Petco).

I'm going to do a test on some aerated tap water to see if it drops from the out-of-tap 7.0 to something lower. I have a small sample being aerated with an airstone and will test it tomorrow morning.

Aside from that, things are holding steady. After a 25% change with bottled water:

ammonia: again, off the charts. 8ppm or higher (treating with ammo lock)
nitrites: .5 or a tad higher (no spike, but not 0, either.
nitrates: 5ppm (this has been steady)
pH: 7.0 (I'm using some buffer that levels it at 7.0).
temp: 78

Fish seem to be doing OK. The two gourami are staying a little too much near the bottom and inside one of the globe-like decorations for my liking, but their fins aren't clamped and they come up for food, etc. I have three fry of some sort (I think guppy) in a breeder and they are still alive.

The ammonia scares the heck out of me, but I guess ammo-lock really works, or else they'd be dead along time ago. And, I know I need the ammonia for the cycle.

I'm going to keep up daily changes, though.

I guess the next positive milestone will be a nitrite spike.

I know this thread is boring the heck out of most people, but hopefully there will be some tidbit of information that will help someone....

[sktadood13]

o it didnt bore me at all i need this info....i just added a pleco, 4 tiger barbs and a plant then my ammonia spiked im really scared....i put ammo block in and it stoped the ammoinia from going up but its still scaring me cause its still pretty high....any have any ideas on how i can get it down?

[smoochxoxo]

put ammo block in and it stoped the ammoinia from going up but its still scaring me cause its still pretty high....any have any ideas on how i can get it down?
__________________


the only sure fire way to get it down is water changes. Like other posts have said ammo lock prevents the ammonia from being toxic to the fish but it all cases it is still there. So your readings will still show the high ammonia but it will be a less toxic form.
gl

[terrapin24h]

I'm going to keep up daily changes, though.

I guess the next positive milestone will be a nitrite spike.


And it's going to be one heck of a spike. Once the bacteria kick in and start converting the ammonia to nitrite you're gonna get alot of it, quickly. That is going to be hard on your fish as nitrite is more toxic than ammonia and i'm not sure there is a way to lock it up like ammonia. My nitrite hit overnight(my ammonia was about 4.0 the night before) i woke up to 5 very loagy fish. I pulled 30% water out right then and there and that brought the levels down. I would suggest you do a B-A water change to try and bring your ammonia down a bit, maybe 30-50%? I dunno.

[nwnittany]

(keep in mind this is just about 12 hours after my last update)

Overall, tank looks OK. Maybe a bit less cloudy. Fish seem OK.

Ammonia: still off the charts... at least 8ppm (keep in mind I did a 25% change last might)
trite: maybe a tad more than .5ppm (still no spike)
trate: 5ppm
pH: 6.6 crimeny, what is making the pH drop ? it was 7.0 last night.

As an aside, I did an experiment on the pH of my tap water. It comes out of the tap at 7.0. Then, I had a small container (1/2 gallon) of water with an airstone in it and let it sit out all night. The thought was the aeration might affect the pH. Well, it didn't. Still read 7.0.

I know the ammonia shouldn't be toxic (due to the ammo lock). But, I'm worried about two things.

1. that ammo lock isn't perfect and there's still a bunch of unconverted ammonia, and,
2. is there any chance that this much ammonia is hurting the cycle ? I don't really see how, but am just curious.

Terrapin - if I do a bigazz change of like 50%, what effect will that have on the cycle ? I guess in theory, the bacteria is not actually in the water but instead on some other surfaces, so it shouldn't hurt, right ?

[terrapin24h]

most will say the the bacteria is not in the water, but on surfaces. Bacteria colonize, and in order for them to do that, they need flat surfaces(gravel, bio media, etc) Were I you, i'd suck the water off the top of the tank, as the lower in the tank you get the more likely you are(i think) to suck up bacteria, that's why they say never gravel vac when you are cycling. I have seen my ph slip from 6.8 to 6.6(my tank is a few months old now) so i have ratched up my research on the ph thing. if i find anything ill post it

[smoochxoxo]

if you ammonia levels are that high even with the ammo lock I would change more than 25% of the water. Maybe boost it to 50%, this way there wont be the case of ammo lock not being perfect.

I was told I think on here somewhere that high ammonia levels might hurt the cycle a bit and cause it to stall because of the fact that the bacteria colony you have or are establishing can't keep up, this would make the ammonia levels go to where they are for you. Keeping up with changes will help keep the ammonia levels down to a consumable level and less fish stress.

Also any water change will effect your cycle weather it is 25% or 50%, BUT the effect will be that it might take a bit longer than a normal fishless cycle, since you are removing some of the ammonia to help your cycle along. It wont disrupt the bacteria you have established though unless you do something in the gravel or change the filter or whatever. Bacteria needs a suface to 'stand' on...
GL

[terrapin24h]

I may have figured out why your ph keeps dropping. One of the common ingredients(apparently) of ammo lock stuff is zeolite. Zeolites are used in water softeners, and can drop the ph. Here's what i think you should try doing:

big water change(over 30%), don't use ammo lock(your ph is so low that you won't get ammonia anyway, if ph is below 7 it is immediately turned into ammonium) Does your water conditioner say anything about neutralizing ammonia? if so it could also cause the ph to slide. Remember how i said my ph slid from 6.8 to 6.6? I just started using stress coat+ to condition my water, and on the bottle it says it takes care of ammonia! I was using Kent pro-tech which made no such claims.

In any event i'm betting your tank water is soft and that is driving down your ph. Is your house water softened? The bottled water you have been using is going to help stabalize your ph, but on that front i think you need to figure out why the water is so soft.

[nwnittany]

Got home from work and did a quick test (~12 hours after my last test a few posts above this).

ammo: off the charts. almost blue. >8ppm
nitrite: a solid 1.0ppm. maybe a little more, but short of 2ppm
nitrate: 5ppm
temp:78
pH: 6.6

I just couldn't stand to see the ammonia that high. I did a 50% change (half with bottled water and half with stress-coat treated tap water).

I retested about 30 minutes later:

ammo: 4ppm
nitrite: .25ppm
nitrate: 5ppm (seems odd)
pH: 7.0

there's still enough ammonia in the tank to keep the cycle going (at least from what I've read) and I was careful not to mess with the filter media, etc.

I'm hoping to see a nice increase in the nitrites tomorrow morning. Seems like I'm in that part of the cycle (the nitrite ramp). I can't wait to get rid of this damn ammonia.

The fish are hanging in there. If I go a day without a water change, the gourami's will take refuge in this globe-like decoration. I wouldn't call it hiding, but it's certainly not what they normally do (normally, they are milling about in the top half of the tank).

It's tough to say how the cory are doing. Obviously, they're on the bottom alot and have periods of resting and then periods of scouring the bottom for food.

Terrapin - I don't know if I can back off the ammo-lock. I'm afraid of the ammonia effect on the fish. Once the cycle is done, I'll certainly cut it out and probably also look to try a new water conditioner to see if that will help keep the pH a bit higher....

[terrapin24h]

I tested my water tonight(i did a water change yesterday, 4gal) and my ph had slipped again. My ph started slipping after i switched to stress coat + and started doing water changes. I did the following test tonight:

Test tap water (7.0+) let sit for 1/2 hour, same results
get new water, tests at 7+ add SC+ as specified on bottle wt 5 min, test ph is 7.0
Wait 1/2 hour, test again ph still 7.0 BUT is a slightly lighter shade than before
wait another 1/2 hour test again, ph had slipped.

Get new water, add 8oz of my aq water, test: 6.8(higher than my tank) add SC+ wait 1 hour and ph had fallen!

The quantity of water i was using was 1 US gallon

Looking into it SC+ i find that it has aloe(a softener) and it takes care of ammonia(see my previous post about zeolites) Knowing that soft=low ph I think made my ph slide was some funky interaction between my tank and my new water conditioner. My testing is far from scientific i admit and i'm sure SC+ is a fine product. I did a 7gal water change using what i had left of my old stabalizer. My ph went up to just over 6.4 and im going to watch tonight.

nwnittany, you might want to look at your wqater stab as the cause of your ph dropping. You've been trying to solve your cycle issue by doing lots of large water changes. If your tank is following the similar path mine is, it's entirely possible you are driving your ph down. I believe i have caught mine early; all my critters are healthy, happy, and active. Now that i think about it, every water change i've done since I got SC+ the ph has dropped. It has dropped slowly because i was only doing 4 gal every 7 days or so(my other levels are good) I'll keep reporting back on this thread what my ph does, and if im right ill have a barely used bottle of SC+ free for the taking :)

--chris

[nwnittany]

terrapin,

any idea if Tetra AquaSafe has Zeolite in it ? It lists the principal ingredients as: sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate, chelating compunds, plyvinyl pyrollidones, seaweed biopolymers, and organic hydrocolloids. It doesn't explicitly list Zeolite, but I gotta figure that is some marketing renaming....

AquaSafe's claims are: neutralizes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals....enhances slime coating...

[nwnittany]

Here's the situation the morning after a 50% change.

ammo: 8ppm (unbelievable)
nitrite: .5ppm (up from .25 after the change, so this is good)
nitrate: didn't test
pH: 6.0 !!! I almost couldn't believe it.

I added some powder to get the pH back up a bit, since I've read that nitrification is hindered/halted at such a low pH.

I'm in a bit of a pickle regarding the pH. If I keep it low, the ammonia isn't as toxic, but the end goal of getting the tank cycled is hindered. If I keep it neutral, the ammonia is more toxic (requiring me to treat the water with ammo-lock, which apparently lowers the pH) but it's easier on the cycle.

It's still early in the cycle (I first saw nitrites on 6/9 and it's now only 6/13) but I'm am a little worried the tank just produces too much ammonia. Then again, this could be the result of unreliable ammonia readings due to the water treatments. Or, it could just be a slower cycle (maybe due to the pH fluctuations).

Fwiw, the tank crash happened about 5-6 weeks ago. I gotta get this tank cycled soon !!

[nwnittany]

I did another 50% change tonight (24 hours after the last one). The ammonia level just seems so high. I'm treating with ammo-lock, but it still bothers me to see the test kit indicate almost blue - darker and bluer than the highest reading, which is 8ppm.

Before the change, things were:
ammonia: >8ppm
trites: 1.0ppm
trates: 5ppm
pH: 6.6

30 minutes after the change (the change consisted of tap water treated with Tetra AquaSafe)

ammonia: still very high... in the 8-ish ppm neighborhood
trites: .25 (I expect these will be back up tomorrow morning
trates: 5ppm (kinda shaking my head here as to why these won't rise)
pH: 6.8

Fish still seem OK. It's been so long since they've been in a balanced tank that I have a hard time remembering what they were like back then, so it's tough to say if they are stressed or not. But, they aren't laying on the bottom or at the top gasping for air.

Sure seems like one of these days I should see the ammonia really fall off and the nitrites spike up....

I feel like the guy in the comedy skit who's drunk off his a** and is praying, promising that if he can only survive the night, he'll "never do that again"....

[nwnittany]

These measurements were taken ~12 hours after my last post (ie, after a 50% change):

ammo: still off the charts 8ppm (unbelievable)
nitrite: .25ppm, in other words, no change from last night after the change
nitrate: 5ppm
pH: 6.0 ?!? WTF ?!? I can't figure out what is killing my pH. Since (as I've read) nitrification won't happen at 6.0, I have to imagine this is what kept the nitrates at the same level.

Man, I hope this isn't a step back and that I can keep the system moving forward by raising the pH.

[terrapin24h]

something has to be dropping your carbonate hardness(KH) levels of your water-- based on the research i've been doing that is buffer for the pH so if your carbonate hardness drops your pH can be prone to flucuate wildly. Water by nature wants to be one ph. there is something that is undercutting the biffer capacity of your water. You may have to pump some buffer (not ph up) into your water. Im still looking into it.

--chris

[nwnittany]

Well, I feel a little better about things tonight.

Ammonia is still off the charts (more blue than green) at >8ppm, but I gotta figure that is due to some of the water treatments.

Nitrites rose during the day from .25 in the morning to a solid 1.0 tonight.

Nitrates still hang at 5ppm, but I'm doing daily water changes to try to manage the ammonia, so I guess I'm removing some each night.

pH still a mystery.... goes in at 7, but the tank quickly drops it if I don't add buffer. I seem to be able to keep it at around 6.6.

The tap water tested odd today. I tested .5ppm of ammonia ! I don't test it every day, but every other time I've tested it, it's been 0. So, this surely doesn't help my ammonia reading (even if treated, if it's just converted to ammonium, it will still show up in the test kits).

I'm running some tests now to figure out why the pH is dropping. I've tested aged tap water, and it still shows 7.0. I tested treated tap water (treated with stress coat) and it tests at 7.0. I put some substrate from the problematic tank in the aged, treated water, and it raised it ! 7.2. So, something else in the tank is lowering it. I'm assuming it is low in buffer, so it doesn't take much to lower it, but I still can't figure out what would lower it.

And, it seems like the family decision-making-body is inching towards the ruling to get another tank (as soon as we get this one sorted out).

Overall, not a bad day :hmm3grin2orange:

[nwnittany]

The tank parameters are the same this morning. pH is slightly lower, but still about 6.6.

Some progress on my experiment. The pH of the water sample with some of the tank substrate dropped significantly. Before the substrate, it was 7.0. 12 hours later, I measured it a bit higher (maybe I goofed the test). But this morning, ~20 hours after having been added, it was down to 6.4.

Keep in mind that that if the water just sits, it stays at 7. Even if I aerate it with an airstone, it stays at 7. So, it looks like the substrate or something on the substrate is lowering it.

LOL. Not sure what I do with this information, since I'm not going to remove my substrate in the midsts of a very fragile cycle, but maybe it will come in handy to know this some day...lol...

[terrapin24h]

i think i might have solved my ph dropping issue. i had bought some rocks in the fish department at walmart(i don't usually buy stuff at walmart, but we needed bufferin for our dog) anyway, they said they were for aquariums, but get this: I put the rocks that i had added to my tank in 1 gal of SC+ treated water and in 12 hours the ph of the water went from 7 to 6.2! So i think those rocks were some how killing the buffer in my water. Nwnittany, Hvae you added any decor, plants, etc to the tank that could pull your carbonate hardness(buffer) level down? Rocks did it for me.

--chris

[nwnittany]

i think i might have solved my ph dropping issue. i had bought some rocks in the fish department at walmart(i don't usually buy stuff at walmart, but we needed bufferin for our dog) anyway, they said they were for aquariums, but get this: I put the rocks that i had added to my tank in 1 gal of SC+ treated water and in 12 hours the ph of the water went from 7 to 6.2! So i think those rocks were some how killing the buffer in my water. Nwnittany, Hvae you added any decor, plants, etc to the tank that could pull your carbonate hardness(buffer) level down? Rocks did it for me.

--chris

terrapin - I haven't added any recently, but in my most recent test, it sure looks like the rocks are also killing the buffer.

I'm going to try the old bag-of-crushed-coral trick (probably starting with just a little and adjusting slowly).

[terrapin24h]

i pulled the rocks that i added out and all day long yesterday my tank held 6.4(I only added a small amt of buffer sat night to bring it up from 6) If it has held on when i get home tonight, i will have 100% confirmation it was the rocks(and then i can get some more critters!). I'm of the mind that the tank should be able to maintain itself(with regular water changes, of course), so instead of adding the shells, I prefer to remove what was causing the damage, else the tank will never enter stasis. If i can get it to stop dropping, then i can use the buffer to get it where i want(about 6.8) and just let it roll. I don't want to have to worry about adding shells or a buffer all the time. I like the mildly acidic water for the fact that if i ever have an ammonia spike for any reason, it won't hurt the fishes. I definitely believe at this point the root cause of your issue was the ph crash, and to treat the tank you'll need to get to the bottom of why your ph crashed, and from what I've read it's most likely going to be due to your carbonate salt levels dropping thus killing your buffer, hardness, and subsequently pH. Now the big question you need to answer is, what caused the carbonate levels to drop? This is normally something people with far more sophisticated tanks than ours have to worry about(particularly saltwater tanks). I think you're well on your way to hunting it down though

--chris

[nwnittany]

Terrapin - I think you got it. The rocks seem to be a big factor in the low pH. I'd remove mine except I'm in the middle of a delicate recycling and it took me several weeks to see the first nitrites, so I'm hesitant to disrupt the tank by removing the rocks right now.

With the bag of crushed coral, the pH was at 6.8-7.0 this morning (same as the pitcher of water with just the rocks and the coral).

This morning's measurements:

pH: 6.8-7.0
Ammo: >8 (treated with ammo lock)
Nitrites: a bit more than .5ppm
Nitrate: a bit more than 5ppm
Temp: 78

Water isn't too cloudy (much clearer than the bloom morning). Some algae on the sides, but not too much.

Keep in mind that I'm doing daily 25% water changes (occassionally a 50% change and maybe a day skipped every now and then). I'm sure the water changes are delaying things, but I'm trying to keep all the fish alive. So far, so good.

I'm actually feeling a bit better about things.

[nwnittany]

This morning's readings:

pH: 7.0
Ammo: >8 (wondering how accurate this is....there's so much ammo lock in the tank)
Nitrites: 1.0+ ppm
Nitrate: 10+ ppm (finally, some
Temp: 78

So, we see an increase in nitrites and nitrates. I didn't do a water change last night, so this is probably one reason. The fish seem OK, in fact, maybe even a bit more active than normal. But, it doesn't seem to be in a stressed way...no darting, etc.

It all seemed to click when the pH was raised from 6.0 and stabilized around 7.0. Or, that could just be coincidental....

[Commodore 64]

What kind of rocks/substrate/gravel are in your tank again? I don't remmeber seeing it anywhere in the thread.

I'm just curious.

[nwnittany]

What kind of rocks/substrate/gravel are in your tank again? I don't remmeber seeing it anywhere in the thread.

I'm just curious.

Commodore,

Well, I'm not exactly sure. We got them at Petco in the aquarium section and they weren't anything exotic...just natural-colored gravel. This is puzzling to me, too. I mean, thousands of people must use the same gravel and don't seem to have this problem. I just wonder if maybe there's something in my tap water that is reacting to the gravel.

Here's a (low-res) picture of the tank...you might be able to make out the granularity of the gravel.... hit me ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])


Long-term, I probably swap out the gravel and run some more tests. But I just don't want to do that now because I'm in the middle of what I hope to be a successful cycle. So, I've band-aided the situation by adding some crushed coral in a stocking, which is keeping the pH at 7.0.

I know this sounds hokey, but if I don't add buffer to the tank, the pH quickly drops 6.0-6.2. The guys at the local fish specialty store say that a few others in my area have complained of the same thing.

[nwnittany]

Did another 25% change last night (keep in mind, I'm cycling with a bunch of fish in the tank that I hope to keep alive)...

This morning's readings:

pH: 7.0
Ammo: >8 (again, gotta figure this is the ammolock)
Nitrites: 1.0+ ppm
Nitrate: 10+ ppm
Temp: 78

I'm not too worried (yet) that the trites and trates aren't higher, because they were 2.0 and 20+, respectively, last night before the water change.

The fact that the ammonia continues to be off the charts is interesting (concerning, too). I was under the impression that treatments like ammo lock converted the ammonia to ammonium, making it less or non-toxic, but still contributing to the ammonia test kit reading and still being 'available' for nitrification. So, I would have thought that I'd see this reading decrease as my nitrites increased. I just haven't seen it yet. But, I'm still a little early in the cycle, so maybe I'll eventually see it.

Critters seem fine.

Once again, I apologize for the thread clutter, but I'm thinking maybe there are some lurkers who read this and either pick up a tidbit or will see something I'm doing wrong and ship in. I don't think I would have focused on the pH as much if Terrapin didn't chime in....

[terrapin24h]

when i was cycling my 30 gal, my ammonia didn't drop until about 18 hours before my trite spike hit, and even then it dropped semi slowly(i saw a small drop, then nitrite spike, then large drop) my ammonia didn't 0 out until my trite spike was done. Get ready for it, my trite spike was very hard on the fish. When this all happend my ph was 6.8

In a quest to get my ph up, i added a bunch of buffer, which helped a little, but i had to do a 50% water change along with it. My ph is now 7.2(higher than before, but i don't care so long as it's stable) and has held for almost a day. I think those d*mn stone from walmart bled my water dry. here's hoping i got it fixed. Good luck on your now advancing cycle!

--chris

[Fishead]

Just remember that the BB found in your tank takes about 8 hours or is it longer.. anyways it takes about 8 hours to double in quantity. The best thing you can do if you have another tank is take the spent filter sponge and squeeze it into your filter, this should help speed up the process. Sorry I didn't read all 9 pages. Personally I would just leave the gravel where it is and don't change this or you are going to have even more problems because your BB are covering the existing gravel. The substrate should have no impact on the PH of your aquarium unless it is very old. But the good thing is that the higher the ammonia from fish waste the lower the Ph drops and actually makes it more safe for the fish. This is the process in which you can ship a fish for so long around the world. Sorry for the long post.

[terrapin24h]

guys--
I believe i have finally found the root cause of my Ph issue. The local reverse 911 left a message on our machine that they were aware of the water quality problems and were working to fix it, that the water was still safe to drink. Well, not according to the bacteria bloom i came home to yesterday! My ammonia and nitrite levels are good(0) so there is clearly something in the water the bacteria is gettin its freak on. I'm taking some water into a lfs today to see what they say. I did a 50% water change yesterday with bottled water(treated of course) in an effort to try an stabalize things. i'll post back how it goes to another thread.

--chris

[nwnittany]

Did another 25% change last night. The last two changes have been with treated tap water and not bottled water.

This morning's readings:

pH: 6.4-6.6 (has me scratching my head a bit)
Ammo: >8
Nitrites: 2.0 ppm (even after last night's change)
Nitrate: 10+ ppm (sticking at a little above 10ppm, despite the water changes)
Temp: 78

Not quite sure why the pH dropped. Still coming out of the tap at 7.0. But, the cycle seems to be progressing...seeing increasing nitrites, even with daily water changes.

[terrapin24h]

nwnittany--
your pH is probably dropping because your hardness is shot. Push up your hardness and you pH should stabilize. Good ole fashion sodium bicarbonate should do the trick(that'd be baking soda) No matter how much buffer you put in, if your water is soft it will eventually fall. Getting to the bottom of my water issues has helped me discover this. I think its like 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon of water.

--chris

[nwnittany]

nwnittany--
your pH is probably dropping because your hardness is shot. Push up your hardness and you pH should stabilize. Good ole fashion sodium bicarbonate should do the trick(that'd be baking soda) No matter how much buffer you put in, if your water is soft it will eventually fall. Getting to the bottom of my water issues has helped me discover this. I think its like 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon of water.

--chris
I take it this is something I need to do with every water change ?

[terrapin24h]

well, i dunno. Like yours, mine was fine for a long time then all of a sudden started to slide. In my case it's because a bunch of junk found it's way into the muni water system that softened the water excessively and i did water changes with that water. Every water change i have done since then has exacerbated the problem leading me to a ph crash and a bad bacteria bloom(i think the bacteria came in the water and my tank was a perfect incubator). My amm and nitrite have not shot up like yours-- yet. IF you get your hardness right and your buffer level right, you should be able to do a 10% water change/week w/o tanking your tank ph and without adding anything other than de-chlor. Were i you i do this:

get a hardness test kit for testing the tap water and get a baseline of the tap water before each time you change--most muni water is a little on the soft side as slightly soft water is easier on the infrastructure and on plumbing than hard water(but if you put slightly soft water in every change, eventually you will erode your buffer level to the point that ph crashes). What this kit will do is alert you to when the hardness changes, to trigger you to add some bicarbonate(alot of ph up products are just sodium-bicarb; according to my LFS-lady) You will essentially use the hardness level to control your ph(just like i'm going to have to until my muni water gets it's stuff working)--my water was a solid ph of 6.8(which proves that my water ran slightly soft) until now. I'm toying with having our water as it is now tested; i just had the aq water tested as i need to get that fixed fast.

IIRC, when you were using the bottled water, your ph was stable, right? It doesn't look like it started slipping until you started using tap water(i could be wrong on this, we've been going for a while on this thread :) )

I think you should probably start adding the baking soda straight away in 1/4-1/2 tsp increments until you get your ph stable at just under 7.0(i'd shoot for 6.8, as it's low enough to keep ammonia locked and high enough for many FW fish) If you keep your ph under 7 all that ammonia your waiting to process will stay non-lethal. Add like 1/2 tsp then wait a couple of hours and test ph, repeating as required until you get near your desired value and then add a little buffer. Tonight i'm going through this process myself, and i'm burning a vaca day tomorrow to keep an eye on the critters. Good luck to both of us :)

--chris

[terrapin24h]

ok--
Everything is "on the bubble" and appears to be balanced. I had to add(by my calculations) about 40 gallons worth of hardness increaser to the tank. As I did that the pH naturally elevated and is currently at 6.8 I suspect that it will increase a little bit more so i'm not going to add anymore buffer or hardness. My amm and no2 are at 0, nh3 is at 10 and my bloom vanished completely. My platies are much more frisky than before and everyone seems to be happy. Hopefully it'll hold and we'll be all set.

--chris

[nwnittany]

Didn't do a water change last night.

This morning's readings:

pH: 6.8 (added another small stocking of crushed coral)
Ammo: >8
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0 ppm (starting to spike)
Nitrate: 10+ ppm
Temp: 78

I rushed my first nitrate test and didn't shake the tube with step#1 in it and didn't shake the bottle of step#2 before adding it. It made a big difference - it was showing 40ppm compared to a little over 10+ppm when I followed the instructions. That will teach me to take the water measurements before my first cop of coffee....

I think this is the 11th day from when I first saw nitrites....

[nwnittany]

This morning's readings:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: >8 (I would think I would see some dip here)
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20-40 ppm
Temp: 78

I did a 25% change. Critters seem OK, but I worry about the nitrites stressing them too much. I gotta figure the ammo lock is doing it's job of neutralizing the ammonia, or else the tank would have died.

[nwnittany]

This morning's readings:

pH: 7.0
Ammo: >8 (crimeny)
Nitrites: ~4.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20-40 ppm
Temp: 78

This is after two 25% changes yesterday. What is really odd is that after changes, I'll see the trites and trates drop, but I rarely see much movement in the ammonia (probably due to the ammonia treatments).

Fish seem fine.

[nwnittany]

For those keeping score, this is the re-cycling of a once-overloaded, but now reasonably-stocked 20 gallon freshwater tank. The only things left in the tank are two gourami (a three-spot and a blue opaline) four cory (bronze, albino, leopard, and - sr. moment here - one other), and two kuhli loaches.

I first saw nitrites on 6/9. Since then, I've seen the nitrites increase, the nitrates increase, and the ammonio stay very, very high (treating with ammo lock). I've essentially been doing 25% daily water changes to try to keep things as nice as possible for the critters.

This morning's readings, after a 25% change last night.

pH: 7.0
Ammo: >8
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20-40 ppm
Temp: 76 (normally 78...was a cool morning and the heater was on...not sure why it dipped)


Fish seem fine. I've really cut back on the feeding, so I've been getting the sad puppy eyes every time I walk by the tank.

[terrapin24h]

nw--
have you taken samples of your tank and tap water to a lfs for testing? We gotta figure out why your amm is so high

[nwnittany]

Terrapin,

I took a sample to the specialty store (not a chain) and they saw the same things I did (this was a few weeks ago when I had the very low pH). They didn't have any insights other than to treat it with ammo lock... BTW, they used the same api test kits I use, LOL. FWIW, I tested with both the strips and the liqiud and both show levels off the chart.

I still don't think the trites have peaked, so maybe once that happens the ammonia readings will decrease.

I know the logic says that the ammonia treatments shouldn't increase the ammonia readings (ie, they just convert from ammonia to the less-toxic ammonium), but I still wonder if this could be somehow causing the very high readings.

On another topic - have you ever checked your phosphate levels (maybe you mentioned this earlier) ? I've read that high phosphate levels can kill the buffering capability of the water....maybe this somehow tied into your buffer/pH problem ?

[terrapin24h]

My ph/buffer issue was caused by a crash in hardness which was caused by a municipal water quality issue(a whole bunch of contaminates found their way into the water...LFS read tap and tank water at *0* hardness). Look at posts #'s 92 and 96 on the previous page. My tank is sitting at a solid 7.2 right now, and i plan to leave it there as i have a prego platy and want her to have an easy time(they like slightly alkaline water).

--chris

[nwnittany]

Didn't to a water change last night...wanted to again see if not doing a change would noticeably accelerate things.

This mornings measurements:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: >8
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20-40 ppm...seemed closer to 20, though
Temp: 76 (normally 78...another cool morning)

So, not alot of change from the night before (I guess I was expecting a bigger nitrate buildup).

Anyway, I felt sorry for the fish and did a 25% change this morning.

[nwnittany]

I'd forgotten that I'd dome a 25% change in the morning and I did another one at night (again, I attribute this to a lack of caffeine at a critical point in the day :-) )

During this crisis, the ammonia would still read >8 the morning after 50% changes. But, not this morning !

This mornings measurements:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: 2-4 (lowest I've seen in it quite a while)
Nitrites: 2.0
Nitrate: 10-20
Temp: 77

I've done some more reading, and as was pointed out earlier in the thread, ammo-lock type products will report ammonium as part of total ammonia. But, I learned something new yesterday, which is that overtreating with these products can cause an overstated total ammonia (ie, not just an overstated toxic ammonia). So, I'm going to try to avoid using any more since it looks like it's on the way down and the fish seem to be fine.

The fish seem as happy as ever.

[terrapin24h]

awesome! looks like you finally broke the back of the ammonia! I notice your ph is sliding as you do more water changes, you might want to get your hardness looked at, or add a little baking soda to the water.

--chris

[nwnittany]

awesome! looks like you finally broke the back of the ammonia! I notice your ph is sliding as you do more water changes, you might want to get your hardness looked at, or add a little baking soda to the water.

--chris

I've been checking the hardness with test strips (I couldn't find the liquid test kits for kh or gh at a the two places I normally go). It usually reads 'soft' (on my strips they are brown and in the middle of the spectrum). I guess the numeric value is about 80 (doing this from memory, so I'm not completely sure on this part).

I think there's also some variability in the 'test-kit-intepreter' (me). I have trouble distinguishing between the colors of 6.6, 6.8, and 7.0 in my kit. I usually have the whole family take a look and pick the consensus value (not the most scientific). So, it could just be us reading the measurements incorrectly.

In any case, if the ammonia holds low all day, I'll really begin to believe we are on to something....

[fins_n_fur]

Looks like you're about to cycle! Very cool! Congratulations.

Know all about consensus test results...I check my parameters sometimes with two brands of test kits have a look a few times at the coloured water in the tube against the results card, get another coffee, compare again and then ask the cats what they think..they have better eyes, but the buggers don't say anything.:hmm3grin2orange:

[nwnittany]

Here's an interim reading (I've been posting the measurements each morning, but here's a report from tonight....)

pH: 6.8
Ammo: 2 !
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0
Nitrate: 20
Temp: 78

I'll do a water change tomorrow morning. But, it is sure looking like I'm on my way to the next phase of the cycle.

[nwnittany]

Here's an interim reading (I've been posting the measurements each morning, but here's a report from tonight....)

pH: 6.8
Ammo: 2 !
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0
Nitrate: 20
Temp: 78

I'll do a water change tomorrow morning. But, it is sure looking like I'm on my way to the next phase of the cycle.

This morning read:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: 1-2
Nitrites: 2.0-4.0
Nitrate: 20-40
Temp: 78

Did the water change (will be interesting to tall the total number of changes for this cycle...)....

[nwnittany]

18 days since first sign of nitrites.

This morning read:

pH: 7.0
Ammo: .25-.5
Nitrites: 4.0+
Nitrate: 40
Temp: 78

Did another 25% change....worried about the nitrites. As a side note, I released the three guppy fry from their breeder. They were born just about the time of of tank crash. Tough little buggers !

[terrapin24h]

good to see your cycle "has legs" my nitrite spike on my 30gal lasted about 1 week. During it i did 6-8 gallon changes everyday(i'd change, wait an hour or two, then check to make sure they went down) From what i've read you need to keep your nitrite below 2.5 if at all possible.

--chris

[nwnittany]

good to see your cycle "has legs" my nitrite spike on my 30gal lasted about 1 week. During it i did 6-8 gallon changes everyday(i'd change, wait an hour or two, then check to make sure they went down) From what i've read you need to keep your nitrite below 2.5 if at all possible.

--chris

Terrapin - will keeping them at 2.5 be enough of a supply to build up the nitrite -> nitrate eating bacteria ?

What % did your 6-8 gallon changes represent (ie, what size tank do you have) ?

[Taurus]

WOW nwnittany-
I wish I'd spotted this thread sooner...what a hassle just getting through a cycle!

OK, Fact 1. Whisper Filters are very good Mechanical Filters. They do a great job of filtering visible crap from your water column (tank water), but Whispers are terrible at biofiltration.

The good thing is that you installed two of them. Use one Whisper 20 as a pure mechanical filter. Let the polyester fiber bag (biobag) act as your mechanical filter.

In the second Whisper 20, fill the biobag with biomedia only. Fill the biobag with biomax (ceramic cylinders) or other biomedia. Do not put any carbon in the second filter, just the biobag filled with biomedia. This second filter will serve as your biofilter.

Your ammonia test kits were giving you false readings based on total ammonia (NH3\NH4). Most are not capable of reading just the more toxic aammonia, but do indicate total ammonia including ammonium. That's why you had ammonia readings of 8.0. Most of the 8.0 reading was the less toxic ammonium (NH4). Your fish would not survive a pure ammonia reading of 8.0
So, the ammo-lock was working, but you've almost completed your cycle, so loose the ammo-lock and build up your biofilter (the second Whisper filter with the biomax). The biomax will provide a large amount of surface area for the ammonia converting bacteria to grow on. This will in the long run bring a more stable environment without ammonia swings.

I have a 20 gal community tank that's a bit overstocked, but I run an AC30 full of biomax (biofiltration) and a Whisper 30 (mechanical filtration) on my tank. The two filters accomplish individual tasks wonderfully. Your two Whispers can achieve the same.

I would also recommend using Prime as your water conditioner, but that is optional. Any water conditioner the binds (neutralizes) chlorine and chloramindes will work fine. I use Prime on faily new tanks or tanks that I have to cycle. Once your tank has cycled use whatever water conditioner your budget allows. Right now I'm using Start Right...Start Right adds beneficial electrolytes that are lost in your water over the course of time. But frequent water changes and any water conditioner that adds electrolytes will restore balance to the water column.

Don't be alarmed if it takes a few months for your tank water parameters to stablize. Once stablized and you're into a regular maintenance routine that includes vaccumming the substrate, water changes, and filters cleaning done the right way, your fish will be healthy and happy. Follow these suggestions and you should not have major problems with fish illnesses or parasites.

Taurus :thumb:

[nwnittany]

Taurus,

A couple of quick questions about the whispers.

First - do you use the course black sponge in addition to the biobag ? I was assuming this was the biological media (I use one in each filter).

Second - how often do you clean and/or change the biobag ? I'm assuming the one containing the biomax is rarely changed since it has all the good bacteria. But what about the one with the carbon ?

[terrapin24h]

2.5 should be enough for the bacteria to form. A higher level would form more of them faster, but would be more hazardous to your fish. I read a few places that higher than that will kill even the toughest fish. I had a nitrite spike during my cycle(it went from 0 to 4 in 24 hours) And my rosy barbs showed all the typical signs of stress. I did a 50% water change right then and there(i didn't even measure the water before the change, i knew what it was--i measured it after i had finished the change) and they perked up instantly. I have a 30gal 36" long tank, so during that time i was changing ~20-25% water daily(therefore, turning the tank over every 5 days or so). When i had my initial spike, i pulled 15 gal. Then the next day i pull 6, and so on. Having an airstone in the tank helps too, if you have one you might want to turn it up a bit. You've been a water changin maniac through all this, so just keep to your 25% changes and that should help'm through.

--chris

[bluekrissyspikes]

you have too many different types of fish that aren't even compatible at all.

[Taurus]

Taurus,

A couple of quick questions about the whispers.

First - do you use the course black sponge in addition to the biobag ? I was assuming this was the biological media (I use one in each filter).

YES

Second - how often do you clean and/or change the biobag ? I'm assuming the one containing the biomax is rarely changed since it has all the good bacteria. But what about the one with the carbon ?

Every Month

Taurus

[Taurus]

Taurus,

A couple of quick questions about the whispers.

First - do you use the course black sponge in addition to the biobag ? I was assuming this was the biological media (I use one in each filter).

Second - how often do you clean and/or change the biobag ? I'm assuming the one containing the biomax is rarely changed since it has all the good bacteria. But what about the one with the carbon ?

YES

Once per Month

When your tank settles down, you'll be able to remove the carbon from the Whisper 20 serving as your mechanical filter. You will not need to use carbon in the mechanical filter. Water changes will take care of dissolved organic compounds (mostly tannins that color the water yellowish brown but are harmless and phenols which cause that fishy smell). Partial water changes with substrate vaccuming will be all you need.
At that point you shouldn't need to buy biobags and carbon. Just but sheets of quilt batting, cut some out to fit your bioframe, wrap it around the frame and the material will filter out visible debris.
It's very important that you get the second whisper filter working as your biofilter.

Taurus :thumb:

[nwnittany]

Taurus,

Thanks for the info...should be able to get out to the lfs this weekend to get some biomax.

I was hoping for a 0 ammo this morning but didn't get it. Close, though:

This morning read:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: .25-.5
Nitrites: 4.0+
Nitrate: 20
Temp: 78

Did a 25% change.

Tested the tap water and the kH is still 0...

[Taurus]

Taurus,

Thanks for the info...should be able to get out to the lfs this weekend to get some biomax.

I was hoping for a 0 ammo this morning but didn't get it. Close, though:

This morning read:

pH: 6.8
Ammo: .25-.5
Nitrites: 4.0+
Nitrate: 20
Temp: 78

Did a 25% change.

Tested the tap water and the kH is still 0...

:thumb:

Please let us know if you were able to get the biomax. If not, I have another solution for you. Glad I could help out. :c10:

[nwnittany]

ZERO ammonia !

Keep in mind that I did two 25% changes yesterday.

pH: 6.8
Ammo: 0
Nitrites: 2.0+
Nitrate: 20
Temp: 78

Did a 25% change since the nitrites were high.

I checked my logs and the last day with 0 ammonia was 5/3.

[Taurus]

:thumb: :thumb:

[nwnittany]

This morning (three weeks since first nitrite reading)

pH: 6.8
Ammo: Maybe a trace...not pure yellow, but not near the first green bar, either
Nitrites: 1.0+
Nitrate: 10+
Temp: 78

I was thinking I'd see more nitrates, but I did several water changes over the weekend. Fish seem fine. Broke out some frozen brine shrimp for a celebration.

Taurus, I got the biomax. My local specialty fish store is closing, so I went to a new one and all I could find was some biomax in a mesh bag (maybe it always comes this way ?). Anyway, I ditched the carbon in one of the biobags and inserted the biomax in the biobags.

FWIW, this tank has a ton of filter media now....two whiper 20's, some extra biomax in one, and small sponge filter, and a large sponge filter. I don't plan on leaving the sponge filters in this tank long-term. I'm just getting them ready to help seed another tank. I'll stage their removal, though...don't want to shock the tank and have to do yet another cycle.

[nwnittany]

Terrapin,

I finally heard a logical explanation for my kH drop. At least I think it's logical. Apparently, my water supply is influenced by mountain snow melting (Mt. Hood) and this water is very, very soft (makes sense - it's not running underground through alot of rock). So, it's common in the warmer months here (LOL, there are are only three...LOl) to get really soft water.

Something good to know...

[terrapin24h]

yah, and right about the time you had you ph crash, you'dve been getting hit with that water. I suffered a similar issue. Our water is river fed, and the river is low due to drought conditions. Plus, you've got people drawing alot of water this time of year(watering, pools, etc) which causes a drop in the water level in the storage tanks, sucking crud into the lines. I think they are recovering because some test strips i bought to measure kh and gh of my tap water are starting to show an increase. Looks as if the both of use need to use hardness enhancers in the spring and early summer.

-chris

[Taurus]

The water changes are keeping nitrates low. I'd start doing 20-25% water changes weekly. Break the 20-25% changes into two 10-12.5% changes instead of doing a big water change all at once.

Biomax comes in a mesh bag. I have a mesh bag with biomax for an AC70 in my AC30. I stack the biomax on top of the AC30 sponge.

Let the biomax populate with ammonia eating bacteria then you can remove your sponge filters.

Keep the black plastic bio sponge\mesh the came with your Whisper 20's
in place. They will populate with beneficial bacteria too!

Taurus

[nwnittany]

This morning:

pH: 7.0
Ammo: Maybe a trace....starting to think it is just zero
Nitrites: 0.5
Nitrate: almost 40
Temp: 78

So, a sign of decreasing nitrites. Don't want to jump the gun, but we could be close to ending this saga.

I did 25% change because of the nitrates. FWIW, I've gotten very efficient at water changes...LOL....

[nwnittany]

...43 water changes later, we might have a cycle.

This morning's readings:

ammo: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 7.0
temp: 78

I forgot to look at my log book and did an extra water change last night, so I want to wait a day or two and make sure the readings are stable before I declare victory.

If things stay the way they are, I'll write up a summary of this saga (maybe someone will find it useful or at least amusing) and then we can kill this thread ! (muted clapping heard in the background...)

[nwnittany]

I'm declaring the tank cycled !

Mods - feel free to delete this thread !!! :c7:

I posted a summary of the saga here ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])

Thanks to everyone who helped - I greatly appreciate it.

[Gemini]

Don't delete this thread please! I read the summary but this has been very helpful to try and understand the whole cycle process for noobs with no science understanding like me!