When to do first water change

[freshspecbluegt]

Hi all,

In the middle of my first cycle, I've had my 20 gal tank running for four weeks, added three platys and biospira about a week ago. Been monitoring the water every other day. As of last night I'm looking at the following readings:

pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 1.0
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 5.0 (same as tap water)

Things look good so far, I think. I did loose one platy but I think it had to do with having a larger male that bullyed the smaller male. I may add another two in the next week or so, would eventually like a school of 8 or 10. When should I look at doing a water change and how long before I can vacuum the gravel? Very worried about "crashing" the cycle.

Thanks for the help

Ross

[f1oored]

I would let the tank go until you start seeing some higher nitrates. The ammonia and nitrite levels need to spike before they will settle down to zero, changing the water before that is only going to extend the process. If you are running enough filtration you shouldnt need to do a water change until the cycle is complete.

One thing to remember is that when you are doing your water change make sure to treat the water before adding it to the tank. The chlorine in tap can kill your bacteria.

Also if your nitrates are the same as the tap you are probably still a ways off from completing your nitrogen cycle.

[kimmers318]

You shouldn't be seeing spikes like that with the usage of biospira. You may have gotten a bottle of biospira that wasn't stored and shipped properly. What were you doing to the tank for the 3 weeks prior to adding the fish and biospira? Just letting it filter, or did you start a fishless cycle? The biospira contains loads of live bacteria for you to add to your tank so that it can immediately start eating up the ammonia and nitrites, which is why you shouldn't see any. If it wasn't kept refridgerated though, it isn't any good.

[NorthernBoy]

I agree. Wait a little longer before a water change. Although by adding biospira you should have jump started your cycle. You should be getting a reding of 0 for ammonia, then do a water change.

[freshspecbluegt]

You shouldn't be seeing spikes like that with the usage of biospira. You may have gotten a bottle of biospira that wasn't stored and shipped properly. What were you doing to the tank for the 3 weeks prior to adding the fish and biospira? Just letting it filter, or did you start a fishless cycle? The biospira contains loads of live bacteria for you to add to your tank so that it can immediately start eating up the ammonia and nitrites, which is why you shouldn't see any. If it wasn't kept refridgerated though, it isn't any good.


Sorry to respond so late. I set up the tank with dechlorinated water and let it just filter for a week and a half (an undergravel filter with air stones in the lift tubes, considering adding a supplemental in tank filter when the tank stabilizes). On the pet stores recommendation I added Cycle and some fish flakes to start colonizing the tank. I know better now, I expect that it did nothing. I added 3 platys a week or so later, two of them died after a few days. I didn't want to loose the third so I added a packet of biospira and the next day gave him two more friends (platys, would have been three but one had a fungus and I sent him back to the petstore). The two friends lasted a week but the old platy bullied them a lot as he was a bit bigger, I contribute their demise to him as he has not demonstrated any signs of stress. Here is my history of water tests so far, been testing the water every other day or so.

11/20-day the first three fish were added:
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5

11/24-Day the 2 replacement fish were added, day after biospira
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 5

11/26:
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 5

11/28 Down to just one fish in the tank at this point
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: .5
Nitrate: 10

12/1
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

Temperature is at 78F

The Ammonia hasn't changed for a week now I'm hoping that the spike in nitrites will get the nitrate-producing bacteria colony going. I am worried about that high nitrite level now though. I think if I will test again tomorrow or later today if my last fish starts looking stressed. If nothing changes I will probably do a 10% change to help lower the nitrites a bit. Any suggestions? Next time I set up a tank I think I will try a fishless cycle, as I never thought I would be so concerned over an 80 cent fish!

Ross

[Cichlid_Man]

Hi,
The ammonia and nitrite are still high as I see. Those 2 toxins along with the high PH you have can really do damage to the fish.

I would get on top of a 50% water change ASAP, and another one tonight or tomorrow morning.

Don't worry about slowing down the cycle, that won't happen.

As Kimmers said, the Bio Spira must have been bad.

Some may disagree, but after the 2 water changes I would add stress zyme.
It is not a cure all, but it does tend to lessen the toxicity of the ammonia and nitrite.

Keep doing large water changes (at least 25%)until you see zero for nitrite and ammonia.
The nitrates are fine at 10 ppm or even 30 ppm.
Keep us posted!

[kimmers318]

In actuality....adding fish flakes to your tank before adding fish did do something....it began to decompose and create ammonia. One method of fishless cycling involves using flake to feed an empty tank until the bacteria colonizes, but this is a slow process requiring a lot of patience. Thus, when you added your platy's they were put into water that already contained toxins. They then add more ammonia waste to the tank, plus any food that is not eaten begins to decompose creating more ammonia. I would definitely say the biospira wasn't any good because within 24 hours your numbers should have been coming down, not going up. This is not "scientific fact" or manufacturers claim...this is my own experiences. When I have had small spikes due to meds hurting my biofilter, or too many changes to tanks etc. a large water change and plunking in a filter bag of gravel from another tank, plus usually some used filter media or rinsings from another tank bring the numbers down by the next day and they usually stay down.
Don't be concerned with your PH, esp. right now. Platy's can live in higher ph levels, esp since they were most likely bred in higher ph. Not many places have naturally low ph water from the city and alot of tank raised specimens are being raised in higher ph and are getting used to it. Can you picture the supplier who is in this for the $$$ spending tons of dough to keep this breeding tank one way, another another way, etc. Not me. I don't remember what PH is "natural" for them, but I know they aren't one of the sensitive low ph species.
Keep up with small water changes, don't disturb gravel or filter if you can help it for awhile and continue to monitor. I would also recommend not feeding the fish for a day or two....1)it won't hurt them, most fish can go a week or 2 without food 2) it will lower the amount of ammonia being created. Hopefully soon you will start to see the ammonia coming down and staying down, the nitrite readings show that there is some ammonia eating bacteria. Lets make the load able to be handled by it. Your nitrates really aren't that high....some recommedations are to keep it lower than 20ppm. Once you see the nitrites coming down you are just about to the end. The water changes will also help dilute the nitrates so you will see that come down too. Platy's are quite hardy fish and since you are taking steps to help them now should pull thru. Do not add any other fish until this tank has stabilized. Since things didn't go as planned with your cycle remember to stock slowly so that you allow the good bacteria to catch up with the added waste. That is the nice thing about fishless cycling....you create an environment with loads of good bacteria because you can allow the ammonia to get really high....noone will get hurt. More ammonia=more good bacteria. When the cycle is done you can pretty much fully stock your tank all at once because there is way more bacteria than needed, and it will be able to handle a full load. Whatever bacteria is not needed will just die off.
Keep us posted on how things are going.

[Lady Hobbs]

Your fish have been living for the last week at least in water with ammonia levels at 1.0. This is toxic to fish as well as nitrites, especially with a higher pH. I would clean nothing but I sure would be doing some water changes if you don't want these fish to die like 30% every other day until ammonia is reading 0.

With high pH as you have, you may want to think of getting fish that thrive in higher pH such as cichlids but your tank is a tad too small for them. Have you tested your pH right from the tap? Many of us never have a perfect pH of 7 but 8 is getting up there and many fish won't do well with a pH that high.

[kimmers318]

Here are some info bits that I grabbed from various sites on platy
This is from badmanstropicalfish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Xiphophorus Maculatus.


Quick stats:
Listed tank sizes are the minimum
Size: Up to 2" (5cm) females larger
Tank: 20 inches
Strata: Middle
PH: 7.0 to 8.3
Hardness: medium to hard. dH range: 10-28
Temperature: 68-79°F (20-26°C)

From freshaquarium

Scientific Name: Xiphophorus maculatus
Family: Poeciliidae
Origin: Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico
Adult Size: 2 inches (5 cm)
Social: Peaceful, suitable for community tank
Lifespan: 4 years
Tank Level: Mid dweller
Minimum Tank Size: 10 gallon
Diet: Omnivore, eats most foods
Breeding: Livebearer
Care: Easy
pH: 7.0 - 8.2
Hardness: 10-25 dGH
Temperature: 64-77 F (18-25 C)

From practicalfishkeepin
Common name: Platy, Southern platyfish
Scientific name: Xiphophorus maculatus
Origin: The Platies sold in the shops are always commercially bred. The original wild fish came from Mexico and Belize.
Size: Females can reach around 8cm/3", but usually 6cm/2" is the norm for this species.
Diet: Platies will accept most foods, ranging from flakes and granules, to frozen foods such as bloodworm and daphnia.
Water: Prefers slightly alkaline water, but is generally unfussy and hardy. Aim for a pH of 7.0-8.0 and a hardness of 3+GH°C. Temperature can be anywhere from 24-28°C.
Aquarium: Platies are a very easy fish to keep and are ideal for the newcomer to fishkeeping. They mix well with most community fish and have few bad habits (with the exception of being prolific breeders). You'll need a tank of at least 60cm/24" to do these fish justice, and they are best kept in a group.

As you can see, they are quite adaptable, and considering that they have been in a higher PH for some time, right now is NOT the time to decide to change that. When most people start trying to lower the PH they see swings where the water just buffers it back up, then they lower it again, the water buffers it back up and this is just as hard on the fish as anything else that may cause stress.

[freshspecbluegt]

Thanks for all the responses so far, I thought I responded yesterday but my post didn't show up. I tested the water again this morning:

12/2
pH: 8
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: between 2 and 5, closer to 5!
Nitrate: Between 10 and 20, closer to 10

I changed out 6 gallons of water and took readings again

12/2 post ~40% water change
pH: 8
Ammonia: between .5 and 1, closer to 1
Nitrite: between 2 and 5, closer to 2
Nitrate: 10

I'm using and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit for all these tests.

I will perform another water change of 3 or 4 gallons tomorrow and test again on Monday. I am thinking about getting another packet of biospira, from a different store this time, or am I far enough along that I should just let it go?

Ross

[freshspecbluegt]

I had a scare on Saturday night, stress was getting to my last fish and I started seeing a few white spots on his tail! Sunday morning, first thing, I ran down to the LFS and got some salt, turned up the temp to 80 and added 8tsp. of salt during my water change. Spots went away by Sunday night and he was happy and swimming around, great appetite, so we're looking good. Been keeping the lights off and the temp high for past couple of days to make sure. I was hoping that I could leave him without a water change until the middle of this week to make sure what I think was Ick doesn't come back but the cycle took off after my 2 water changes!

12/3 post 2nd ~40% water change
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5


12/5
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 5
Nitrate: 40

I am going to do a ~40% water change tonight and follow that with one tomorrow and maybe another on Thursday to lower these levels. My fish doesn't seem to care one bit though, he's been a trooper, hope I can keep him alive for a long time after all this.

Ross

[Lady Hobbs]

As previously mentioned by others, bio-spira sounded bad. Was it given to you refrigerated? I has to be refrigerated at all times and there's a chance this store didn't put it away in the cooler when their shipment come in. I don't know if getting more from them will help as it may have been their whole shipment but it's a chance to take and will be well worth it if it's a good batch. I used Stress Zyme because bio-spira is not available in my area but isn't as good.......but better yet than nothing.

A cycle will go faster if no water chances are done but you will also loose your fish. If they don't die they'll be suspectible to ICK and fin rot within a short time. I never lost a fish due to cycling because I did those water changes but it took me much longer than I had hoped for. Needless to say, I will never cycle this way again.

If you have an aerator, it will speed along the process as bacteria will grow faster with more oxygen but if you don't have an air pump, don't worry about it.

You may also want to pick up a couple feeder goldfish just for your cycling. They don't live long anyway and are used for this cycling purpose. Personally I hate seeing any fish go thru this so try the added bacteria first and see if it helps.

Your tank will not be cycled until your readings are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and you have nitrates. Even after those readings, only add a few fish at a time so the bio load can keep up with your stock. You can't fill your tank with stock all at once but add a few every couple of weeks.

[phishmin]

Just do normal weekly water changes. The tank has to go through the cycling process. Toxin levels will get high, but they are also needed to get the helpful bacteria growing. If you start doing large water changes to bring toxin levels down, the cycling process will be slowed down. Use cheap hardy fish to cycle tank. feeder danios work great.