Planning First SW Tank - critters?

[wbzorker]

Hi,
I've been keeping FW tanks for several years now and am casting my eye on SW set-ups. There's a whole lot of reading for me to do if I go this route. Before I get in too deep, like over my head lol, I'd like to better understand what non-fish critters I could have. My current passion for FW are snails and I've looked at the beautiful snail and crab clean-up crews that SW tanks can have. What other types of mobile/semi-mobile critters could I go for? Don't have a firm tank size yet, it's going to depend on the needs of the critters and the pocket-book but it will be between 20g and 50g. I don't want anything poisonous or delicate for my first tank. I've read some about nudibranches, sea slugs, sea cucumbers/apples but my source docs weren't geared around aquariums.

All suggestions will be deeply appreciated,

[TowBoater]

Go as big as you can if you are new to s/w. S/w provides a very large variety of inverts and such you can get but sadly most are poisonous so you have to work around that. There are several variety's of hermits and they are very humorous to watch work around you tank. There are several snail sand one of the coolest is the narcissus snails because you see there snouts sticking up out of the sand and then when you feed all of the sudden you have a bunch of new snails out in the open. Several crab variety's are available. My favorite has to be the arrow crab or the emerald crab. The emeralds are always feeding and the arrows just look cool. Shrimp are widely available and a few like the skunk cleaner and coral banded will clean fish and prevent several problems. Never get sea cucumbers and such if you can avoid it. Corals are beneficial to a tank rather it be a polyp or an SPS or LPS coral. Are you wanting corals? If so then be ready to spend a lot of $$ on them and lighting. Get several power heads and a skimmer if you can.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Shrimp are a great critters to have crawling around your tank. I love my Coral Banded Shrimp. You also have your choice of Skunk Cleaners, Peppermints, and Blood Shrimp. The Peppermints are kind of shy so you will rarely see them. Coral Banded Shrimp are mostly nocturnal. Mine found a cave and stays there all day, then at night they will move about the tank cleaning up.

[TowBoater]

My peppermint is out all the time but I don't have many fish in there. To be truthful, my coral banded hides more than my peppermint.

[wbzorker]

Thanks a bunch, folks. Looks to me like the outcome will be worth the investment:19: Just wait 'till my hubby hears about my next "project" lol

[TowBoater]

Lol just keep the cost on a down low so he don't know it will cost lots of $$

[wbzorker]

LOL, too late, I already hinted at what a few of the components would cost.

After 23 years of wedlock he's used to my silly ways. Today we talked about lighting over lunch. He is definitely not interested in mounting anything on the walls or ceiling, so we both agreed that having lights with feet on them would be best. So, with the important part out of the way,lol, I'll begin my research on T5s, VHOs, Metal halides, compact flours, LED etc. Then, when I'm up to speed and all the lighting choices have been made I'll show him a picture and innocently say "Look honey, the lights you wanted are on sale. I'll go ahead and get them for you." He'll peer over his glasses shake his head and wander off muttering something about feminine wiles. We have a similar ritual for when he wants to buy a new guitar, only then he plays the part of cunning conversationalist, and I the bemused wife. Nothing quite like a happy marriage :19:

I'm certain there will be a million questions down the line with this project. Would it be most helpful for other users if I keep it all on one thread as I progress, or would it be better to ask each question as an individual thread?

Thanks for your help,

[zackish]

Check out sea serpent stars and cowry snails as well. Nassarius snails are good for algae and sand grazing.

[TowBoater]

You need to decide what corals you want before you choose lighting. You don't want to get a super big light and then corals that don't need it, thats a waste of money but you don't want to get a smaller light and then corals that need more. One of the best things you can do in my opinion is put it by a window so you can use natural sunlight as well as a smaller yet still powerful light. I use I think 260 watts on my 55g if I am not mistaken. That is roughly 4 WPG or a little more but I use natural sunlight as well and now my WPG is HIGH!!!

[Ocellaris]

Check eBay or your LFS for some of these books that may help. If you buy them new, they could cost a pretty penny, my Reef Invertebrates was $45 alone. But used off ebay, you could get a few great deals.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z30G6MGML._SL500_AA240_.jpg
http://www.calicoaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/Inverts%20Quick%20Ref.jpg

Reef Invertebrates and Invertebrates are too really good books with two different styles of lay out. Reef Invertebrates is like a text book that is very descriptive, while Invertebrates has species listed with lighting requirements, hardiness, expected life in an aquarium and what not.

Also, you might want to check out:
http://www.microcosm-books.com/images/UltimateMarineAquariums.jpg

The pictures are horrible quality, but the information is amazing. It has lots of tanks of all sizes, high tech, low tech...etc... It give information from how long it's been set up to the pros and cons of their construction. Very useful book to get ideas from.

Also:

http://www.paraquatics.co.uk/media/the_nano-reef_handbook.jpg

[wbzorker]

You folks are awesome:19: Thanks so much.

Mr. Prototype, I admit that right now I'm stumped on the whole coral question. Last night I studied the differences between hard and soft corals but don't know anywhere near enough to have an opinion on what I want. Or let me put it this way, critters and colors fascinate me. I want a tank that has clear, bright colors and lots of interesting behavior. For me an interesting tank has 1 0f everything instead of a school of the same kind of fish. Exceptions abound of course, but take crabs for example. If 20 hermits do a particular job, and the job is done just as well by 10 other kinds of crabs, I'd want to have the 10 other kinds. So that much I know. Now I just need to research the easy to medium critters that tempt me and build a tank around them. Or maybe I'll end up saying "My budget can allow for X $ spent on lights and live rock. Within that parameter, what critters can I get?"

I'm a bit confused about live rock regarding coral too. Is most live rock already seeded with coral? If you opt for the medium strength lighting, will the live rock grow?

I have a 55g positioned in front of a window that may end up being the tank for this project. The problem with it is that there isn't any room for a water storage tank nearby.

zackish, thanks for the tip on snails and sea stars. I adore snails already and the sea stars look really interesting. :-)

Ocellaris, your book tips are a treasure. :11: I have one coming already and will definitely look for the others on E-bay.

One more question, do most folks have poisonous critters in their tanks? What do you do to stay safe?

TIA,

[Halelorf]

The live rock is very porous rock that has bacteria, like a fw filter, living inside of the rock pores. Most liverock is not seeded with corals, and those that are are usually much more expensive. The liverock "grows" coralline algae on it. This can be different colors, green, purple, red that is a calcerious algae. It will take awhile before you see it start to grow good but it will after some time on the rocks and any uncleaned section of glass. As for poisons, if you go sticking your bare hands around enough in a saltwater tank you are in for a very rude awakening. Some coral species are toxic to humans just by touching them. Usually poisonous critters like a lionfish will only be dangerous to you if they feel threatened. I would at the least get some latex gloves to handle anything for saltwater. At the extreme end you could be like cocoapleco who uses a plastic gripper device so his hands arn't in the water. I use reef gloves which are thicker than latex, but if I get stung by a bristleworm like cocoa I might switch to a gripper. Hope that helps some!

[spudbuds]

I recently setup a reef myself. I spent the first couple of months just learning things regularly and it helped immensely. I'm glad to see you are going that way as well.


Mr. Prototype, I admit that right now I'm stumped on the whole coral question. Last night I studied the differences between hard and soft corals but don't know anywhere near enough to have an opinion on what I want. Or let me put it this way, critters and colors fascinate me. I want a tank that has clear, bright colors and lots of interesting behavior. For me an interesting tank has 1 0f everything instead of a school of the same kind of fish. Exceptions abound of course, but take crabs for example. If 20 hermits do a particular job, and the job is done just as well by 10 other kinds of crabs, I'd want to have the 10 other kinds. So that much I know. Now I just need to research the easy to medium critters that tempt me and build a tank around them. Or maybe I'll end up saying "My budget can allow for X $ spent on lights and live rock. Within that parameter, what critters can I get?"
When I was making my choices, I ended up leaning towards picking equipment that would support anything so I wasn't limited. I liked everything I saw when doing research and I wanted the ability to make stocking changes as I went. It's worked out pretty well.


I'm a bit confused about live rock regarding coral too. Is most live rock already seeded with coral? If you opt for the medium strength lighting, will the live rock grow?
Live rock general does not have any coral on it. Occasionally you'll get a hitchhiker, but don't plan on it. Live rock is just rock that is colonized with the bacteria needed for biological filtration as well as little critters that are good for the tank. Live rock does not have any lighting requirements.


One more question, do most folks have poisonous critters in their tanks? What do you do to stay safe?
Some do. As long as you study the "critter" prior to buying it, you'll know how they should be handled. Just make sure to wear gloves when messing with your tank and use some common sense and you can keep something poisonous if you want.

Keep the questions coming and good luck with your new adventure.
- Bill

[karbomb]

you could also get sea urchins or star fish, but i hear a lot of star fish are not mixed well with coral.

[spudbuds]

you could also get sea urchins or star fish, but i hear a lot of star fish are not mixed well with coral.
And many starfish do not survive long in captivity likely because of misunderstood dietary needs.

[karbomb]

And many starfish do not survive long in captivity likely because of misunderstood dietary needs.
well the little guys are carnivores, but i wasn't aware they didn't live long in captivity.

[wbzorker]

Thanks again everyone. This helps so much :-)

So basically, wear good gloves whenever you touch the tank, and research your stocking choices thoroughly. This I can do.:c3: I've been thinking of getting a gripper anyway, for my freshwater tanks, just because I have short arms and deep tanks.

Bill, my launch date for this tank is Christmas so I should have time to get my research done and totally wear out the anticipation factor. Besides, after a few months of non-stop salt water this, and salt water that, my hubby will probably encourage me to get the tank early so he won't have to listen to me carry on any more.:hmm3grin2orange:
Your idea regarding flexibility for the equipment sounds perfect. Excluding lights (for now), what choices did you make that increased your flexibility?

Halelorf, thanks for your explanation. As far as live rock goes, the coralline algae sounds lovely. Do you balance the number of algae eaters against the amount of coralline algae that you want, or do the usual algae eaters eat other kinds of algae?

I read about "grunge" last night that you add to your live sand and rock to increase it's bio-diversity. This too confuses me. Wouldn't the live rock reflect the life from the micro-ecosystem that it came from? If you add micro -life forms from different ecosystems won't you end up with invasive species problems? Similar to introducing apple snails to an area that it's not native to and ending up with the snails destroying the habitat for the native life-forms? Or is it just a free-for-all and eventually the variety settles down to a limited number of "most successful" species?

Thanks again for all your help,

[TowBoater]

For what size tank? And if I was to get starfish then the only one I would get would be a serpent star. I have 3 in my 55g and they are very neat.

[spudbuds]

well the little guys are carnivores, but i wasn't aware they didn't live long in captivity.
I should have been more specific. Brittle and serpeant starfish are good for the tank. The ones I'm referring to are the sea stars like Linckia sp. Fromia have a better chance.


Your idea regarding flexibility for the equipment sounds perfect. Excluding lights (for now), what choices did you make that increased your flexibility?
Honestly, lighting was the big thing. I made sure to have a refugium in the system as well as a pod breeding ground. Some species of fish (mandarins) require them for food and I wanted the flexibility to keep them. A skimmer that is too large will also help if you make the overstocking mistake (but should not be a justification for doing it on purpose).


Halelorf, thanks for your explanation. As far as live rock goes, the coralline algae sounds lovely. Do you balance the number of algae eaters against the amount of coralline algae that you want, or do the usual algae eaters eat other kinds of algae?
Most of the normal algae eaters don't eat coraline as far as I know. Urchin's do, but they aren't a standard in the clean up crew like snails and crabs.


I read about "grunge" last night that you add to your live sand and rock to increase it's bio-diversity. This too confuses me. Wouldn't the live rock reflect the life from the micro-ecosystem that it came from? If you add micro -life forms from different ecosystems won't you end up with invasive species problems? Similar to introducing apple snails to an area that it's not native to and ending up with the snails destroying the habitat for the native life-forms? Or is it just a free-for-all and eventually the variety settles down to a limited number of "most successful" species?
I'm not sure I would worry about invasive species with the grunge. As far as I can tell, most of the critters are the same (bristleworms, pods, etc.). However, I would be hesitant to add it to an established tank. I used it to cycle my tank and populate my base rock (rather then purchasing live rock). It caused a large cycle that I think would be detrimental to an established tank. I suppose if you only added a small amount, it could be helpful and your established bacteria may make short work of the decay. If you add too much, it would be like adding some uncured live rock to an established tank.

- Bill

[wbzorker]

I've been studying the book "Invertebrates" by Julian Sprung. Just going through it and marking the possibilities has helped me to have a better understanding of what I would like to see in a tank. Generally speaking, sea slugs, snails, clams and worms were what I liked the most. It would be fascinating to watch these guys move and well...not move :-)

The one critter that I liked the most was the Christmas Tree Worm. :1luvu: I've admired pics for years and just had no idea what they were.

So.... this infatuation means I need coral right? Which leads to the enhanced lighting requirements? The book says that it is usually harvested on Porites sp. Would this be a low, medium or high light requirement?

Let's say I did a 20g tank. How many of these beautiful creatures :18: would fit (without crowding) and could the sea slugs and snails act as a clean-up crew? How would a clam fit in the mix?

I figured out a way to adapt my 55g set-up from FW to SW but it would require removing 100 gallons from my FW set-ups. I'm not sure I want to do that yet.

Thanks for your help, folks

[Halelorf]

Christmas Tree is a filter feeder that doesn't like bright lights. It would be somewhat more difficult to keep and I wouldn't recommend it for one of your first saltwater creatures. Seaslugs are cool but, if you are talking about the kind i'm thinking off they release toxins when stressed or when they die which could easily crash your tank. As spudbuds said most creatures don't eat coralline algae, urchins do, but all the usual clean up critters eat nuisance algaes and detritus. As for clams the ones I know of that are popular for aquariums are the tridacna clams which need good water and really high lighting. I believe you basically would need metal halide lighting to keep them nice and happy. So that would be another less than ideal critter for you to get early on in your saltwater hobby. You should take a look at some of the soft corals and polyps. A majority of those are very hardy and look really cool too. Hope that helps!

[wbzorker]

This helps a lot. I'll just plan on them for my second/third tanks, a year at least after my first. Did the same thing with FW. Started off with snails, gradually moved up to angels and am sitting here admiring 5 beautiful discus :-)

Ok, back to the lovely snails, soft corals and polyps :-) Several did catch my eye, so there's lots to be happy with. As far as the sea slugs go, the kinds I thought might be suitable are listed as Melanocblamys, Cyerce and Elysia. The last two are listed as hardy with growth and reproduction possible, and all three have the "toxic to fishes" description left off. The first two are listed as herbivorous and photosynthetic (which I assume means lights bright enough to insure good growth). The Elysia notes a common name of Lettuce Slug. I did read a thread about sea cukes that referred to a lettuce slug as if it were toxic if injured, but saw no follow -up that would clarify it. Would you suggest that I postpone further interest in these three also? I'm only looking at one book, so can't be certain I have a balanced source.

Thanks again for the info,