Cardinal/neon advice??

[invadertoast]

Given my recent luck with neons, I decided to try to add some cardinals to the school last week. Right now, I have 5 neons left out of two batches of 6, which apparently isn't that uncommon. All of the noens seemed totally, completely healthy and were all very large, but I'd just randomly lose them one at a time. Last week I saw some cardinals for 6 for $10, so I figured I'd give it a try. They're very small, and the guy accidentally gave me 7 which was pretty cool.

Over the last week, two mysteriously dissappeared, which I wasn't too surprised about considering how tiny these are (1/2") This morning, my 5 neons and 5 cardinals were looking beautiful and acting normal in every way. Tonight, one of the cardinals is hanging out at top in a back corner, and has NO red coloration at all. There's another one that is very, very brightly colored, but is just kind of randomly floating around with the current. I noticed his gills look a little red. Ammonia and nitrites are zero, nitrates are right around 10ppm. Ph is 7.6 (same as the store) Temp is 77/78. Any ideas?? Am I just not meant to have a school of neons/cardinals?? I know they're fragile, but it's frustrating when everything seems to be in order and they look healthy but still randomly die for no reason...

[smaug]

having the same ph as the store is no guarantee that ph is not the culprit.At the lfs they will not be in the tanks very long and what you don't see at the store are the workers constantly removing the dead neons from the tanks with improper ph.Neons really are very sensitive to higher ph,especially if it is conjunction with hard water to boot.If it weren't for having that monster of an angel in my tank they do very well because of the tanks lower ph 0f 6.6.I have tried them in my other tank with a ph of 7.5 and they don't last a week.

[invadertoast]

So maybe that's the culprit... I thought about trying to lower the Ph, but I'm too scared about water changes and having massive swings and screwing everything else up...

[smaug]

ph adjusting is frowned upon here,for good reason for the most part.However,if your water is not extremely hard it is not too difficult really.One simple product I use and recommend is seachem acid buffer.In my 58gal I use 1 teaspoon of it a week for very stable water and a constant ph of 6.6.If neons are the only fish you are having troubles with maybe its not worth it to fiddle with your water.There are many other very colorful fish to choose from that will take your water.Glow lights are hardy and though not as colorful as neons they do have that orange stripe which stands out,serpaes are also pretty with there cherry red coloration and they do well in most water.

[invadertoast]

I do have pretty hard water and the neons are the only problem fish... I'd rather not mess with things. I was thinking about a bigger school or harlequin rasboras (I have 4) so I guess I'll just see how it goes. Neons have always been a favorite fish of mine, but I haven't kept any in probably 12 or 13 years, I had them when I was much younger and knew nothing and did no tank maintenance, figures they all lived long lives.

[smaug]

I do have pretty hard water and the neons are the only problem fish... I'd rather not mess with things. I was thinking about a bigger school or harlequin rasboras (I have 4) so I guess I'll just see how it goes. Neons have always been a favorite fish of mine, but I haven't kept any in probably 12 or 13 years, I had them when I was much younger and knew nothing and did no tank maintenance, figures they all lived long lives.
you had better water then and didnt know it!

[invadertoast]

you had better water then and didnt know it!

This was also at our old house, we moved last fall (for the first time in my life and I'm 22! lol) It's so weird, the more I learn about this hobby the more I'm amazed at how I've ever been able to keep fish alive! I've always had a tank for as long as I can remember, but only in more recent years have I come to really understand them.

[LosC]

Check for Ich (small white spots), may have got a bad batch that was infected.

[doug z]

Yeah, fish are resilient, but not THAT resilient..

Your pH is just too high for S.A. fish..

I would say if you don't want to get into lowering the pH just stick with fish that are ok with pH that high..

Mine is that high, but I REALLY love cardinals, corys, and otos, so I'm obliged to lower the hardness and pH for them..

I'm adding CO2, which will lower the pH but not the hardness, and wouldn't help with the water I'd have to add for water changes...

So I'm going to be adding either R/0 water or demineralized water, and then cutting it with tap water (7.8) to get my target pH (6.8).

[jbeining75]

You know what they say about neons..... If you want a dozen by 3 dozen.... They die very easily when transferring between tanks and most of the time are conditioned when leaving the petstore for the trip. The pH may not be the culprit. They are weak movers...

[pinsonpa]

I have 6 Cardinals in my 10 gallon. I cycled with them (because I didn't know better at the time). My pH is 7.4 (same as the store they came from) and they seem health and happy after two months.

I was tempted to try and lower my pH but didn't want to have to commit to adding chemicals on a regular basis forever. I've read (here and other places) that often a consistant pH is more important than the ideal ph listed in a species profile. That being said, if mine were looking sick or dying I'd have probably tried lowering the pH.

Driftwood can be a more natural (long term) way to lower pH (but it won't drop it much). I've heard peet moss in the back of your filter can help too. Also a more natural approach (but you'll have to keep adding it).

[invadertoast]

Since I posted this I haven't lost any more fish, and my three remaining Cardinals are HUGE... well, not huge but they've grown alot! They were tiny little guys that just looked like blue strings with eyeballs, and now they're the same size as my smaller neons. My 5 neons all seem to be okay too. I'm hoping everybody is adjusted and will be okay, but I won't be surprised if I lose more... Maybe the Cardinals just didn't make it because of their size?

I definately don't want to mess with my pH, I don't want to screw things up as everybody else seems healthy. Also, I go away for several weeks every couple months (last time I was gone three months!) and my mother is in charge of my animals. She faithfully picks out wiggling mealworms for my geckos, thaws out a big dead rat every week for my snake, and keeps an eye on the temperature of their cages. Now that my fish tank is set up again she's already terrified of water changes and feeding them the right amount, I don't want to leave her with the responsibility of keeping my pH lower and steady!