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Glasstapper
11-17-2006, 07:28 PM
I recently bought a 5 gallon setup for a betta I plan on getting soon, but I thought I would cycle his tank for him first. It's suggested that any tank for a betta bigger than 3 gallons should go the cycle route.

So I was looking around at the different methods of cycling. There's your fishy cycle, but I won't ever do that one again. It's way too stressful for me and for the fish. Then there's your fishless cycle. Everywhere I've read about fishless cycles says that you add drops of pure ammonia everyday until you're done, then either keep feeding it ammonia everyday to keep your bacteria alive or add some fish.

Now here's where I wanted to experiment. Decaying plants and rotting food add ammonia, right? Well I thought maybe I could cycle a tank just on those two without adding pure ammonia. This is how I have it setup, and what I've done.

Eco-Complete substrate (nothing on top), a corkscrew val, a small anubias, whisper 10 filter, and a submersible heater for a 10 gallon tank (I added the heater after a week). So first day, I set up the tank adding my substrate and water. I let that sit for 2 days, then added my two plants, a recently taken out old media filter from my established tank, and also a good couple of handfuls of some gravel from the established tank. I've also been adding the same amount of food that I give my fully stocked 45 gallon, so that should have been plenty. After a week, I tested the water for ammonia and the reading was 0. I decided to go another week adding even more food, and I added the heater putting it at 87F. I'm almost at the end of the second week.

My results? Ammonia is still at 0. You should see how nasty this tank is by now. The water stinks real bad, there's rotted food everywhere, and the corkscrew is definitely dying (which I intended).

So riddle me this, batman. If dying plants and rotted food is supposed to add ammonia to your tank, why isn't this supposed overload of "ammonia" not even enough to even get a reading on my test kit?

I think I'll give it one more week (if I can stand the smell). If nothing again by then, I will take the whole thing down, clean it, and start over with the pure ammonia drops.

In conclusion, it seems that you cannot fishless cycle your tank with dead plants and food as your source of ammonia quick enough for it to be a desirable method.

(that anubias is still good, though. :) I'll probably try it in my 45 when this one gets cleaned)

Fishguy2727
11-17-2006, 07:40 PM
That does not sound right at all. There should definitely be ammonia in there unless it got through the ammonia part of the cycle between readings, but I highly doubt it. I think there is a problem with the test kit, or something along those lines. Pure ammonia is the most efficient, but you can use things like table shrimp or food, although I think these are obsolete to the pure ammonia.

kimmers318
11-18-2006, 01:20 AM
That is definitely odd....were the plants dying and decaying when you added them...or were you just at that point relying on the "overfeeding" to rot and build up ammonia? I would have to agree with reptileguy that you might be getting a bad read.

Here is a suggestion since you said you had a media filter from an established tank that you also put in there. Why not put the filter media back into established tank (after rinsing the nasties off first)...allow it to continue to culture bacteria while you clean and reset up betta tank. You can probably also manage to stick the media that will stay with betta tank filter into your established tank somewhere too. When tank is ready add media and betta. There should be enough bacteria on the filter media for it to take off and handle any bioload from the betta and you shouldn't see any spikes. It is very easy to "jumpstart" a tank when you have good tanks going and the process is quite quick.

Thanks for the info on your experiment though so we have the thought always in the back of our brains that that idea may not work :)

Fishguy2727
11-18-2006, 02:09 AM
I don't know what all you were reading, but a single betta in a small to medium sized tank isn't much of a bioload. So I would not say a tank like that needs cycling. I just setup a 2.5 gallon with a plant out of the 10 gallon planted tank and added 2 female bettas a week apart and they are loving it (they love Hikari's Micro Wafers as well).

Glasstapper
11-18-2006, 02:31 AM
Ok, I retested the water for nitrites and nitrates this time. I got 0 for nitrites and maybe 5 for nitrates, but my tap water has about 10 already in it. I haven't done any water changes in there, so I imagine some of the nitrates have died off.

I honestly don't get it. I have about two weeks worth of rotting food in there, and no reading of ammonia. I'm not sure if it's my test strips because I've used this same bottle of strips towards the end of my 45 gallon cycle (I went through the first bottle right away because I was nervous) and they were working. The strips haven't gotten wet or anything. They've just been sitting in the same place as always on top of my tank.

The dying plant was healthy when added, and is only now starting to die, so I probably wouldn't expect much in the way of ammonia from it right now.

So technically, you're saying I ought to be able to cycle a tank using mainly fish food (I've been using flakes)? I was thinking this as well, but I was only trying to find out how long it would take. I certainly didn't think I wouldn't even have ammonia readings after two weeks.

If it is my test strips, I'll have to wait until after the holidays to buy a nicer test kit (not strips) and try this method again. I'm determined to know if this will work or not.

Lady Hobbs
11-18-2006, 03:27 AM
I had a guy in another forum tell me the same thing....to just keep dropping in fish food. I guess the theory is that rotten food will give you ammonia? I have no idea but the thought of starting out with a fifthly tank didn't appeal to me and it seems it would take a heck of a long time to cycle that way........if it cycled at all.

kimmers318
11-18-2006, 06:54 AM
It does take a long time to fishless cycle with the flake food. Pure ammonia works much better. And since you did add established filter media there was bacteria there, it very well could have been eating up the ammonia pretty quickly, although I would still consider a liquid test kit...I have heard the strips can be unreliable. If you have good bacteria in a tank (which you added with the filter media), you shouldn't see ammonia or nitrites unless you are really overdoing it and the bacteria can't keep up. But I would imagine you should see high nitrates, and you aren't.
You have begun an interesting...makes me wonder kinda thing here haven't ya glasstapper!

Fishguy2727
11-18-2006, 01:01 PM
Nitrates don't just die off. There are three ways they are removed. By water changes, live plants (you need A LOT on a small bioload to balance out), and anaerobic denitrifying bacteria (mainly for sw). So they should be in your tank. Yes fish food will add ammonia, but this is a messy, very unprecise, slower, more expensive way of doing it compared to the pure ammonia.

Lady Hobbs
11-18-2006, 04:07 PM
Certainly agree with that reptileguy. It is said to work on several sites on the net.....only two links below but there are many.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

But I think it would make the tank rank, possibly start worms in the gravel or other parasites, and as you say, why pay for fish food when ammonia is cleaner, faster and cheaper.

Glasstapper
11-18-2006, 04:30 PM
ah, so it WILL take forever. And yeah, it's pretty gross in there. After reading those two links Hobbs provided, I will just clean the heck out of it today. Replace all of the water, clean the filter well, and siphon the substrate very well.

Well, at least I know that this is another cycling method I will not try again. It seems that the best method is still the pure ammonia route. It's always good to take the opportunity to teach yourself something new. :)

Lady Hobbs
11-18-2006, 04:42 PM
After reading those two links William provided, I will just clean the heck out of it today. :)

Thank you for changing my name from Carol to William. I always HATED the name of Carol. :thumbs2:

Hey you, do you EVER read your messages?

Glasstapper
11-18-2006, 05:18 PM
LOL! sorry, about that. What a day! I edited the post. And I always forget to check my messages. I'm the same way with my voicemail and text messages. I hear it all the time especially from my mom. "What is so difficult about checking your messages?! I'm going to stop leaving them if you don't get your butt in gear."

Haha!

(also, I just replied to your message and sent you an email.)

f1oored
11-24-2006, 02:51 AM
Pure ammonia is the best way to go. I'm doing a fishless cycle with pure ammonia on a 72 gallon tank right now and after two weeks I've already got the nitrite spike and my water is crystal clear. You could drink from my tank (if you didn't mind the high ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels). This is by far the fastest and cleanest way to cycle a tank.

Good luck!