need advice with cycle

[cmeuwissen]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie and I desperately need advice from you all. Here's my story, and I'll have 2 questions at the end.

12 days ago I set up a 40 L tank with 2 goldfish, type comet/shubunkin. after 5 days water turned very milky (couldn't see fish) , massive ammo spike (8ppm). had fed fish only twice in that period, 3 pellets (tiny balls) each. after 7 days and couple of waterchanges and no feeding decides with LFS to 'reboot' the tank: clean tank out, 100% new water. But after that the water was still testing for ammo (0.5ppm) after this.

Have done 50% water changes every day since then, but every time i check ammo still very high, between 6-8ppm, pH low (6.4-6.6). I use Ammolock with every water change, add PH7 to neutralise PH but PH doesnt change much, still low (6.6)
No signs of nitrite yet. Fish look all right.
I also use Aquarium salt (have no live plants in my tank) and Stress Zyme (bacteria to boost filterfunction) with every water change.
I fed the fish only 2 pellets each this week.

Q1: do I need to continue with the daily 50% water changes until ammo drops or could I do it every other day (or less) since I use Ammo-lock so it's not too bad for my fish? (how come my ammo is so high anyway after few days, do my fish poo that much?)

Q2: do I keep working on trying to neutralise the PH levels? how important is it to get it to around 7?

Any feedback, advice would be really appreciated :))))
Many thanks,
Christel

[Wild Turkey]

Goldfish are big waste producers and those two will outgrow that tank. So yes, they do poo that much. lol

I wouldnt mess with the ph. Most of the time it causes more harm than good. Its much easier to adjust ur fish to a less than favorable ph than to successfully adjust and maintain ur ph.

[cmeuwissen]

thanks for your reply!

No! they will outgrow the tank? So how big a tank do my 2 goldfish need then?

and about the ammonia: does using ammo-lock make it less urgent to do waterchanges, as in every other day instead of every day? i mean, i'd like to change water as less as possible to get the cycling going but health of fish is more important off course. what would you say? is using ammo lock protecting my fish?

[smoochxoxo]

doesn't ammonolock alter a true ammonia reading??? I have never used the stuff so I am not sure but is what I have heard. If Ammonia is a huge concern and since you have goldfish like Turkey said they are POO Factories!!! Depending on the type of filter you have, if you replace the carbon in the cartridge use a mix of carbon and zeolite. That helped my tank with goldfish way back when. Or if you can get a seperate zeolite cartridge to put in with the carbon I would do that as well. Zeolite helps remove ammonia from the water that circulates.
GL

Forgot to add about the ph...if it is a stable 6.6 then you should be fine. If you think about it that is very far from 7.0 so I wouldn't try to alter that.

[Sasquatch]

Hmmm, where to start ...

1. This will sound very upitty and "I Know EVERYTHING", but don't listen to your LFS guy ... If he sold you two goldfish for a 40L tank ... he's not being responsible.

2. Two goldfish will eventually need at least a 30-40 gallon tank. Each will get somewhere around 10-12" long, way too big for your current tank.

3. Goldfish are really messy. A lot ... big time ... very dirty ...

4. Cycling a tank with fish in it usually takes 4-6 weeks. It will likely take longer if you do frequent water changes ... but that's the only way not to kill your fish.

5. IIRC products like Ammolock bind the ammonia, preventing the bacteria from using it ... if you use that, you tank will never cycle. (But I could be wrong on this, I don't know everything. :hmm3grin2orange: )

6. Don't mess with your pH. It's fine for the fish you're keeping. Constantly trying to get it to an ideal pH will just stress your fish out because it's alway fluctuating. A pH of 6.4-6.6 is fine for most fish.

At this point, I'd try to take the goldfish back and do a fishless cycle. No stress for you, no water changes and no dead or stressed out fish. (More on this later ... )

If the LFS won't take them back, try and exchange then for two Zebra Danios ... not ideal because it's still a fishy cycle, but much better than two goldfish. They're small, won't produce as much waste and are much hardier than goldfish. Keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite levels and do water changes as required.

Now for the fishless cycle. Basically, instead of getting fish to produce ammonia to cycle your tank, you add the ammonia directly yourself. IMO the only tricky part is finding the ammonia, it can't have perfums or surfactants in it ... just straight ammonia. After that, just follow the instruction in the thread below and if a few weeks, you should have a fully cycled tank.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Keep us posted and don't be affraid to ask questions ... we all started like you did, and then we found the AC. :19:

[cmeuwissen]

Thank you sooo much for your advice!

Will go back to LFS asap to discuss things. Bit worried how my kids will react on news that Tiger and Goldy will be exchanged...Re LFS I agree, they didn't tell a thing about cycling etc, just that a tank with biological filter would be really easy...I'm a mum of 3 and to be honest wasn't prepared for this at all... But am going to make it work -
with you guys from AC :19:

I did read somewhere on the net that ammo-lock doesn't actually bind ammo, it just converts it into a non toxic form of ammo that will still be used in the cycling...

Keep you posted - thanks again for your support.

[smoochxoxo]

This is what I found about ammo-lock....it might help when you do your changes...

Ammonia remover (ammono-lock, amquel) will help remove some ammonia, but won’t do the job of established bacteria. Put a teaspoon per 10 gallons about half an hour before ding a water change. This breaks up the ammonia, then you remove it with the water change. Use a chlorine remover with stress coat afterwards.

And this is from a Q & A website....about using ammo-lock

Ammo-Lock will protect the fish from ammonia while the biological filter becomes established. Ammo-Lock does not inhibit the development of the biological filter.

Like I said I have never used it but I have heard it gives false + readings. Try doing it before a water change and see what that does like the one above clip I posted said. It might get the levels down enough so when you do exchange it will be less stressful.

Also maybe try buying some plants (live) from the lfs. Most lfs use the same water to circulate through all their tanks which essentually would have some beneficial bacteria built up on the plants and such. This would be helpful as well. All though it wont be enough bacteria but it will help and start you in the right direction. Look for low light and hardy plants like Anubias Nana. This is what I did and they didn't die from the cycle. They are good beginner plants.

Also since you have a "goldfish tank" now I am assuming you don't have a heater for it? If that is the case maybe a white cloud mountain minnow would be a better suit for your tank. They are very small, very very hardy, are cold water tolerant up to 76 degrees F, and are not "waste producers" like a gold fish. I have 4...3 males and 1 female and they are actually quite pretty. When the males go around the female they will flare up their fins and look like they are dancing for her. (typical male huh??? lol j/k) Females have rounder fuller bellies and males are more streamline and colorful. So if you do choose something like a white cloud make sure you get a few of males and a few of females. 2 and 2 or 1 female to 2 males.
GL and keep up posted on how it goes!
Hugs
Jenn

[Lady Hobbs]

I've never used anything in my cycling with fish other than doing regular water changes and watching those ammonia and nitrites levels. Using products that "may" alter readings is something that bothered me. I do think what would have been more beneficial is if your fish store had talked you into bio-spira or Seachems Stability rather than any type of ammonia- locking agents. There are many products that add the good bacteria needed for cycling on the market but the two I mentioned seem to have the best results. The tank will still cycle but cycle faster and the toxic levels held down so the fish can better survive.

I don't know what kind of goldfish you have but I don't believe they all get huge. You might want to check on the type you have and check to see the size they will get. (I know nothing about goldfish.) !! sorry

[cmeuwissen]

Thanks Jenn, your reply is very helpful, re ammo lock, makes sense to add it before a water change.

i've rang my lfs and found out I can return the goldfish and get a credit. Will go in tmw and ask them how they could sell me that tank with those fish...

I'm going to try to do a fishless cycle - I can't bear it to jeopardise any more fish while learning about all this stuff....poor little fish...

re white mountain clouds (yes have no heater) they sound lovely and I will for sure consider them! Typical male behaviour, hehe, sounds about right, allthough my husband is not much of a dancer ;)

Thanks so much again for your support!! will keep you posted
chrxx

[pinsonpa]

If this lfs is your only option for buying fish and aquarium supplies you might not want to go in with guns blazing (verbally of course). I would, however, bring it to a managers attention that an employee suggested those fish for that tank.

You said 40 liters, right? If my math is right that works out to just over 10 gallons. Both of those types of goldfish can get big. I just looked them both up and the Comet can get up to 12 inches (30 cm) and the shubunkin can get up to 16 inches (40 cm). Granted, their growth would be stunted in a tank that size so they wouldn't get that big but they would be miserable.