I think it's time for a new filter...

[fixedwing71]

Hello everyone, my name is Mike and my wife (Jennifer) and I have a 28-gallon bowfront freshwater tank. We've had a lot of ammonia and disease-related trouble lately and we're wondering if our filter is not up to the task.

We had some problems with disease about 1.5 months ago. We tried the tetracycline (sp?) for a few days and it did nothing but turn the water yellow. We then used the Jungle LifeGuard which, as before, took care of the disease issues. After the treatment, we changed 33% of the water on the 10th of March. Six days later, on the 16th, we changed 50% of the water as we still had a yellow tank from the tetracycline. Ever since then, the ammonia has been through the roof. We've tried Ammo Chips, Ammo Loc, and nothing was working. Finally, as of yesterday (14 days later), the ammonia is on the way down. It's nothing short of a miracle that the fish are still alive. We lost three fish in the 2.5 days we were on the tetracycline, and we consider ourselves lucky we didn't lose more.

We bought the TopFin starter kit and the tank came with the TopFin 30 filter. It's noisy, hard to clean, and we're wondering if our out-of-balance biological filter is due in part to the TopFin 30.

We just got a PetCo in our city and went there last night for the first time. We saw two filters that caught our eye - the Marineland Penguin 200 and the Hagen AquaClear Power Filter 50. Both mentioned the "three filtration systems" (menchanical, chemical, and biological) and we're wondering if they may be better at maintaining the biological balance in the tank than the TopFin 30.

Does anyone have any experience with either one of these filters? If so, is it good or bad? We'd love to add a few more fish (that poor Zebra Danio is having an identity crisis), and would like to try live plants again at some point, but not until things are stable. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated - thanks in advance!

[sailor]

The aquaclears are a great series of filters, I would go for the ac 70 for your tank

[Rue]

The Topfin filters are adequate, but not the best.

I have the AC50 on my 25g and it seems just the right size.

You could even go to the AC70 - but it might be a bit more than you actually need.

If you still have the yellow tinge, do use the carbon. It will clear the water up for you.

All the HOBs work on the same principal though, what media you put in them is up to you...but the AC is the easiest to maintain in my opinion.

[jbeining75]

Yes I switched to Aquaclears years ago and haven't used anything else... An AC 70 would run great on a 28 gallon tank. If you didn't want hob and wanted canister a fluval 305 or a rena xp2 would be great for ya....

[Ellen4God]

I'm assuming you cycled your tank before adding any new fish...? The ammonia problems could be from a tank that was not cycled before hand. You can download and read the free e-book on the left side of the page.

About the filters. I've heard many raving reviews about the AquaClear brand. I would probably go with that one over the two.

I'm sure you'll have more opinions coming though. Good luck!

[Algenco]

another vote for the AC70, if you might want to do live plants someday go with the Rena XP2

[RainMan]

Aquaclear is the way to go... so one more vote. If you do change your filter soon... then make sure you keep some of the media from your other filter or place some gravel in a filter sock to get your new filter fired up... I would run both simutaneously for a month.

You should make sure to do a lot of water changes to keep the ammonia level down. Everyday if needed. If you had the yellow tinge in your tank for that long, I think you should have increased your water change frequency and added new carbon. That usually clears it right up. Once the yellow was gone... then throw away the carbone and start over. Have you cleaned the glass? Maybe there is some staining going on. Another thing... Some antibiotics kills the bacteria in your biological filtration... that might explain the increase in ammonia level. ??? not sure about tetracycline.

Anyway, start doing regular water changes.... this will improve the health of your fish.

Welcome to the AC!!!

[gm72]

...and yet another vote for the AC70.

[fixedwing71]

Wow, I can already see this is a wonderful community! Thanks for the fast replies!

I think I see an AquaClear 70 in our very near future!

@Ellen4God - Interesting coincidence! We had a male Betta named Bruce for quite some time! Named after Bruce the shark from Finding Nemo, of course. Actually, he was the fish that started it all; he was in a .5g tank for a couple of years and he seemed VERY happy once the 28g tank was established. We added the female Betta (named Grace; we figured on Bruce and Grace from Bruce Almightly) and they seemed to get along just fine. Bruce died from old age a few months ago... we were both very sad to see him go.

Anyway, we tried to let the tank cycle and establish before adding new fish. It's been quite some time since we added fish and we're not going to add any more until we get things under control.

@RainMan - Jen and I were just talking about that this morning while I was joining the forums. For regular maintenance, I was thinking about a 25% water change once a week, which would mean no water in the tank would be more than a month old. If that wasn't enough, a 50% water change once a week for water no more than two weeks old. And you're right about the tetracycline - it's an antibacterial, which is probably what started this whole thing. If that stuff killed all of the good bacteria, we were probably starting over with the bio filter, which explains the high ammonia until things settled down... like they appear to be doing now.

I think starting today, we're going to do a 25% water change every other day until the ammonia is zero, and the go on the once-a-week schedule I listed above. Between that schedule and the new filter, I hope to have zero ammonia again, and can always adjust the water-changing schedule if need be.

Speaking of water changes, do frequent water-changes upset the bio filter? Would a weekly 25% water change eliminate the good bacteria? Or does it not work that way?

[gm72]

Speaking of water changes, do frequent water-changes upset the bio filter? Would a weekly 25% water change eliminate the good bacteria? Or does it not work that way?

Doesn't work that way. Most of the bacteria live in the area with high water movement, that is, the filter. When you get the new filter be sure to continue running the existing filter for a few weeks to allow the new filter to become established.

Advice on the AC70--run it with a prefilter to eliminate the need for regular media cleaning. I use prefilters on all of my filters and never have to clean them out, only have to rinse the sponge. I use and recommend these:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Then load the media compartment with Ehfisynth or equivalent biological media and you'll be set for a very long time!

[Lady Hobbs]

Some of the meds will mess with the cycle of the tank. Not all of them but some of them and I have a feeling you lost your cycle, is all.

If your filter is still pushing out as much water as it always did and not making a racket, it's probably fine. But as sailor said, if you need another filter, get the AC110.

[fixedwing71]

OK, I think we've just about got an action plan together. Everyone's answers have been extremely helpful and believe me, we appreciate the help.

One more question arises from the latest responses. Is it possbile that Jen and I are 'overcleaning' the tank? When we've been changing the filter once a month - per the recommendation of the filter mfr. - we've been removing the pump, the artificial plants, decorations, etc., and rinsing them all off. Is that a no-no? Is that removing the good bacteria, especially wiping off the green slime inside the pump? When removing the filter media and loading new charcoal and Ammo Chips, can too much rinsing remove the good bacteria from the filter media? Now I wonder if we've been hurting the bio filter all along by too much cleaning.... is just a quick rinse good enough?

[Rue]

Yes, it could well be that you're being too clean!

The chlorine in tap water will kill off the bacteria, so rinse your reusable filter media in old tank water (like your sponge).

You can clean plants off, but maybe only do half at a time to preserve more bacteria. I've been running 2 sponges in all my filters now, so I only ever replace one at a time ...

[Lady Hobbs]

Instead of those filter pads, I would get some filter floss and use it instead. You can just rinse it out in discarded tank water and use it a long time.

You also do not need to replace those filter pads for some time. Those, too, can be scrubbed off with your fingers in tank water. The reason the manufacturer recommeds changing them every two weeks is because the charcoal in them is only good for two weeks. Most of us here on the board no longer use charcoal at all. It's good for removal of medication but really is not needed at all.

I am a money saver and I go to Walmarts, when bed pillows are on sale for $2.50, grab a couple. This is what I use for filter floss! It's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying aquarium filter floss for $4 for a wee little 8 oz. Those filter pads will put you in the poor house but if you want to continue using them, go ahead but just know that charcoal in them is no longer effective after two weeks. Some cut the pad open on top and dump out the charcoal, too.

I have some but keep them only for the removal of meds.

You need not do all that cleaning and certainly not that often. I often remove my fake plants, rocks, wood, etc, lay it all on a towel on the floor, clean my gravel and just put all the decoration back as it. That I do about once a month but very seldom clean the decorations.

[RainMan]

One more suggestion I would add: When rinsing your filter make sure the water is not hot... Excess heat and even cold can kill the bacteria in your filter material. I try to adjust the water to ambient or as close to tank temp as possible.

I'm with Hobbs... I reuse my floss and sponges for a long time. Just rinse them out... give them a light squeeze and you're done.

I have also turned away from carbon/charcoal in the last few months. It has been the biggest money and time saver so far. It really isn't needed except for med removal. As long as you keep up with 20-25% water changes a week and don't overfeed... you'll never need carbon or ammo-chips again! wahoo! If you do use the carbon... change it every 2 weeks.

On more thing... Unless your decorations are absolutley discusting looking... I wouldn't touch them either. Your gravel cleaning is more important anyway.

[fixedwing71]

@RainMan - I've always rinsed my filter with cold tap water, but from now on, I plan to use discarded tank water.

Looks like there's light at the end of the tunnel!!

We went to PetSmart on Sunday to get some more Life Guard and we ran into the young lady that helped us initially setting up the tank in December. She is very nice and very helpful. She asked about the tank and we explained the problems we've been having. We also explained the problems we've had with the blue dye being stirred up every time we cleaned the tank. She said that wasn't right and asked us to bring back as much of the gravel as we can, so we can exchange it! She seems to think our bag of gravel wasn't glazed, and that's why we get so much dye floating in the tank.

I scooped out as much gravel as I could (31 lbs.) and took it back to PetSmart. We thought about going with the blue again, but we're a bit tired (and gun-shy) of the blue so we went with 35 lbs. of natural rock. When I scooped up the blue rocks, the water was so blue, I couldn't see my hand in the tank. I'll post a pic I took with my wife's camera to show the PetSmart staff.

That's why I've been asking about cleaning the filter media.... it turns solid blue after just a few days in the pump every time we do a water change. Maybe with the new gravel, the filter media will last us more than just a few days and I won't have to clean it! Yeah! I KNEW something wasn't right! I just always thought the blue dye was part of having blue rocks! There's no way that could have been good for the poor fish.

So once most of the blue dust settled to the bottom of the tank, I vacuumed out most of it, along with a 50% water change. Bought and installed an AquaClear 70 filter, but only installed the filter media since we're medicating the fish. Emptied the Ammo Chips and charcoal from old TopFin filter media and gently rinsed it in tank water. With both of those filters running, the water was crystal-clear the next day and the ammonia went from a steady 8.0 to a 1.0! We checked it today and it's risen a bit to 2.0, but Jen added some Ammo Lock. We're going to check the ammonia again tomororw and if it's any higher, we'll do a 25% water change.

Once the medicine is done, we'll probably change 25% - 50% of the water and add the rocks to the tank. We're going to run both filters for a few more weeks so the good bacteria can get established in the new AC 70 filter.

So thanks for everyone's help.... I think we're well on our way to a much healthier fish tank. We'll be sure to keep everyone posted. :c3:

[RainMan]

Woh... didn't see that coming. You never mentioned anything about blue die? That will surely cause all kinds of problems. Maybe even false positive ammonia readings??

Anyway, glad you finally got rid of that blue stuff and traded in for some natural... It looks way better anyway (IMO).

My mom boiled a buch of that blue rock one time... it turned into a blue blob. I think it was coated with plastic or latex paint or something? After that, I decided I would never setup a tank with anything other than natural.

[Rue]

Yes, the rock shouldn't be bleeding...not good!

I think in the long run, you'll be much happier with the natural stuff...

[gm72]

I have one tank with blue and black gravel and love it, but it should never bleed dye into the tank. Not at all good.

[A340]

Just a quick explanation for you. It seems everyone has recommended the AC70, and so would I.

Aquaclears are by far the best HOB filter on the market, they are affordable, well built, quiet and very versatile when it comes to filter media.

The reason why everyone is recommending the use of the AC70 and not the AC50 is because of something called "overfilteration".

Basically, you want to "overfilter" your tank, better water conditions for the fish, meaning your fish will be healthier. The easiest rule of thumb is the "double-up" rule. Basically, you take the max rating for your filter and divide it by half which is the maximum tank size you should use for that filter. Example, your Top Fin 30 is rated for a 30g tank, divide that by half, and it shouldn't be on (by itself) a tank larger than a 15g. Or, take your tank size, times it by two and that is the rating of the filter you need to be looking at. Example, you have a 28g tank, times two equals 56g, so you need a filter that's rated for 56g to use (by itself) on your tank.

So, the AC50 is only rated for a 50g tank, so is only good for a 25g tank. The AC70 is rated for a 70g tank, so it's good for a 35g tank which will give you more than adequate filtration.

Of course, different tanks will bend the filter rules. For example, if you have a planted tank, you may want to look at a canister filter because they provide less flow and less surface agitation (less oxygen exchange on the surface) which is better for the plants. If your tank is heavily stocked, you may need to get an even bigger filter as well.

[fixedwing71]

Thanks for the reply A340, I think we're learning that just because something says it's for a 30-gallon tank doesn't mean it will work in a 30-gallon tank. We had to buy a Top Fin 100 air pump to run our bubble wall and other air accessory; the 30 pump wasn't getting the job done and a 50-sized pump wasn't either.

So on Sunday night, we vacuumed out the rest of the blue pebbles as best we could and did a 50% water change. Took off the Top Fin 30 pump, gently rinsed the AC70 filter media with used tank water, and added the 35 lbs. of gravel we bought. We installed the other two components of the AC70 filter (the BioMax and the charcoal). On Monday we woke up to a crystal clear tank! The AC70 seems to be doing great... it's quieter than the Top Fin and cleared the water in about 8 hours!

We've been checking the ammonia every day since the 'big change' and it has risen to a 4.0 (today) from 2.0 (Monday). I'm thinking it's still a little high because we made some BIG changes to the tank (new filter, rocks) and the biological filter is still in the process of establishing itself. Is that right? A 4.0 is better than the +8.0 we had for such a long time, and I know the goal is zero ammonia. Are we doing anything wrong? Can we be doing anything better? Will it just take a little more time? We're planning to do a 33% water change on Sunday, and make that a weekly ritual.

I thought about doing a 25% water change every other day until the ammonia is at zero, but didn't know if that would be worse for the tank since the good bacteria is probably trying to re-establish itself.

Any suggestions would be appreciated! We're in the home stretch I hope...

[RainMan]

Get some biro-spira... or cycle to help boost your cycle along.

You should definitely do a water change everyday (25% is good) to remove as much ammonia as you can. I would do it everyday until it is manageable.

It would have been best to run the old filter with the new filter until you new filter had a chance to establish itself.

Do not touch the gravel, decorations, or filter until you recycle your tank.... the water is okay to change... but nothing else.

[fixedwing71]

Thanks for the reply, RainMan. We did run the two filters simultaneously for a week, which was when we were medicating the fish. The only thing in the filters were the filter media. I guess a week wasn't long enough...

I did a Google search for Biro-Spira and Cycle - I don't know if the two LFS here have them, but I can certainly look. I also did some searching on cycling the tank. It sounds like this is something we never did properly from the beginning. :ssad: I also think we 'overcleaned' the tank at the beginning, which most likely never gave the good bacteria a chance to grow.

With that being said - and correct me if I'm wrong - this is what we need to do:

1. Get the ammonia down to a manageable level so it doesn't kill the fish. Do this with 25% water changes, every day if necessary.

2. Don't remove all of the ammonia, as some ammonia is required to complete the tank cycle (like maybe a 2.0?)

3. During the water changes, don't disturb anything!! Just vacuum out 25% of the water and replace it.

4. Continue to check the chemicals daily until the nitrites stabilize at zero, which means the cycle is complete.

5. Once the cycle is complete, we can go to a once-a-week 25% water change schedule.

Is that about right? The water is starting to get cloudy/milky, does that mean the bacteria is starting to establish?

[gm72]

Thanks for the reply, RainMan. We did run the two filters simultaneously for a week, which was when we were medicating the fish. The only thing in the filters were the filter media. I guess a week wasn't long enough...

I did a Google search for Biro-Spira and Cycle - I don't know if the two LFS here have them, but I can certainly look. I also did some searching on cycling the tank. It sounds like this is something we never did properly from the beginning. :ssad: I also think we 'overcleaned' the tank at the beginning, which most likely never gave the good bacteria a chance to grow.

With that being said - and correct me if I'm wrong - this is what we need to do:

1. Get the ammonia down to a manageable level so it doesn't kill the fish. Do this with 25% water changes, every day if necessary.
Yes.

2. Don't remove all of the ammonia, as some ammonia is required to complete the tank cycle (like maybe a 2.0?)
2.0 maybe, depending on the fish. Watch them carefully.

3. During the water changes, don't disturb anything!! Just vacuum out 25% of the water and replace it.
Yes!

4. Continue to check the chemicals daily until the nitrites stabilize at zero, which means the cycle is complete.
Not necessarily. Look for 0 ammonia, 0 nitrIte, and maybe about 10-20 nitrAte.

5. Once the cycle is complete, we can go to a once-a-week 25% water change schedule.
Debatable depending on the stocking level and filtration. Most of us do 40-50% weekly water changes.

Is that about right? The water is starting to get cloudy/milky, does that mean the bacteria is starting to establish?

See above, GREAT job learning and moving your fish keeping practices forward!!!!!! :19: :11: :1luvu:

[fixedwing71]

Good deal. The only problem is the realization that we've done it wrong from the start. If all of the fish we currently have survive this, they definitely are tougher than I give them credit for.

Changed 25% of the water last night, and didn't touch anything else. Jen checked the chemicals this morning... nitrates/nitrites are zero, and the ammonia is still a 4.0. I'm going to do another 25% water change tonight and check the chemicals again in the morning.

[gm72]

Yikes. Very high ammonia. Good idea for the water changes.

[Lady Hobbs]

That is very high for ammonia. I'd be changing out a lot more water than 25%. If you can bring that ammonia down to .50 you'd still have safe fish and get your cycle.

Remember your bacteria is in your filter and gravel (or was) and not in the water.

Fish that go thru that stress level might end up with ick and fin rot. It's very hard to keep them healthy under that stress.

Good luck

[fixedwing71]

That probably explains why we've had 2-3 disease problems in just a few months.

Bad news... I checked the ammonia before the water change tonight and it jumped from a 4.0 this morning to an 8.0. :ssad: I changed a little over 25% (replaced 8 gallons) of the water. I was very very careful not to disturb the rocks when vacumming out the water. I'll check it again tomorrow and if it's still 8.0 then I'll have to do 50% changes every day until the ammonia goes down. I'm running out of Stress Coat and Ammo Lock with all the water changes I've been doing lately.

Again, if the fish in the tank survive this, it will be a miracle. We're trying our best to keep the poor guys alive during this process.

Another question. How long do I need to run the charcoal until the medicine is filtered out of the water? We installed it last Sunday, almost a week ago. I ask because I'd like to replace the charcoal bag with the AquaClear Filter Insert Ammonia Remover, to help get the runaway ammonia under control.

[gm72]

You are fine to remove the charcoal at this time.

Keep up with those water changes. It is a wonder that the fish are surviving.

[gem]

At 8.0 it is truly amazing the fish are alive. Even at 4.0 for that matter. Have you checked the ammonia in the water you're using for water changes? It's very possible that you have a high ammonia level in your tap water. Also....what test kit are you using to test? Is it a dip strip or liquid test kit? The dip strips are fine for a quick check once the tank is cycled and you just want to check up on your levels, but aren't very accurate. Liquid test kits are far more accurate and what I would recommend. API (aquarium pharmaceuticals) makes an inexpensive test kit, and though not the most accurate on the market....it's reasonable enough. You can also find out if your lfs tests water as well and have them check it.
Check you test kit's accuracy, test your tap water (if it has alot of amonia you may consider using Amquel+ to treat the tap water in addition to your dechlorinator prior to adding to the tank), keep doing water changes to keep the amonia down a bit.
HTH

[fixedwing71]

Because of the drought conditions our state has been under, we know that the city is adding ammonia to the water. I've checked the ammonia of the tap water and while some is present, it's certainly not at the levels that we're finding in the tank. We do, however, treat the tap water with API Ammo Lock. Is the Amquel+ any different/better than Ammo Lock?

We use the API liquid tests; we've been using those from the beginning. I've often wondered about the accuracy of the test and if we have to go to the LFS tonight to buy more Stress Coat - and look for the Amquel+ - maybe we should bring a little water to test. And trust me, we're amazed that the fish are still alive also. We're doing all we can to take the stress off the poor guys (and girls).

We're going to do a 50% water change tonight, and again tomorrow if the ammonia isn't lower. If it's not any lower when we test Monday night after two 50% water changes, we have no choice but to move up to daily 75% water changes.

Speaking of, the water is cloudy and I'm assuming/hoping that's because of the bacteria trying to establish itself. Am I slowing down the cycle process with these huge/often water changes?

[RainMan]

Yeah... that cloudy water is the sign your cycle is starting again. Do not change your water until it clears up. I think your tank is continually recycling and never finishing. That would explain your increase in ammonia all of the time.

Stop messing with it until the cycle is complete.

EDIT: Go to the LFS and ask him to get something to boost your cycle along. I think ammo lock is for small traces of ammonia... not what you are dealing with.

[fixedwing71]

I think that is what's been happening... the cycle keeps starting and never completes. We haven't messed with the filter or the rocks in over a week, but we've been changing water like crazy.

The only explanation Jen and I can come up with is as to why the fish are still alive is the Ammo Lock. The bottle states that it detoxifies the ammonia but doesn't remove it, and the ammonia tests will still show ammonia content. Whether that's right or wrong, it's the only thing we can think of is how the fish are still alive - and seemingly healthy - with an 8.0 ammonia reading. They are swimming around, the rasporas and tetras school, and they certainly don't have a problem at feeding time.

With that being said, we decided to only change 25% of the water every other day until we see the ammonia drop and the nitrites increase. We did a 25% water change Friday night, and one last night. The water was very cloudy Friday and didn't seem to get any better on Saturday or Sunday. After the 25% water change last night, the water has cleared up some but is still somewhat cloudy. Jen checked the chemicals this morning and saw a slight decrease in ammonia but no increase in nitrites (still 0).

We only add Ammo Lock to the tap water we are replacing, not to the water already in the tank. That, and some Stress Zyme to get rid of the chlorine. Last night we added some Stress Coat, which is supposed to boost the good bacteria in the tank. Maybe that's why the water isn't so cloudy today.

We will be checking the chemicals daily, of course. So now we don't need to do water changes? I'm so confused....

[Taurus]

[/QUOTE]
We only add Ammo Lock to the tap water we are replacing, not to the water already in the tank. That, and some Stress Zyme to get rid of the chlorine. Last night we added some Stress Coat, which is supposed to boost the good bacteria in the tank. Maybe that's why the water isn't so cloudy today.

We will be checking the chemicals daily, of course. So now we don't need to do water changes? I'm so confused....[/QUOTE]

Whao..my suggestion is to add only a dechlorinator to your tap water at water change time. You're adding way more chemicals with your water changes than you need to. Add only Ammo Lock or Stress Coat to the new water, not both. Forget the Stress Zyme. When it comes to adding chemicals to aquairum water, less is more.

Test your water daily for ammonia level and make water changes only when ammonia is above 0. Let your filters run. The good bacteria will eventually build up, all it takes is time. Let your cycle finish. That's the key here for you to remember..let your cycle finish.

[RainMan]

....Speaking of, the water is cloudy and I'm assuming/hoping that's because of the bacteria trying to establish itself. Am I slowing down the cycle process with these huge/often water changes?

The only thing I can say... is the water turning cloudy is a sign that your cycle is beginning. Usually at this stage you don't change the water. I might be wrong saying that... it's been a long time since I cycled a tank. But, usually you have to let it ride until that cloudy water clears. Then you can do a water change.

I would give all of those chemicals a rest too.... maybe it is bonding with the ammonia and your bacteria can not use it?? Like Taurus said, "less is more."

Someone please speak up if this is incorrect.

[fixedwing71]

We're only adding Ammo Lock and Stress Zyme to the water we replace. Both are a must, as there's existing ammonia and chlorine in our tap water.

The fish seem happy. The colors on our Neon Tetras are brighter than I've seen them in a while.

[Taurus]

We're only adding Ammo Lock and Stress Zyme to the water we replace. Both are a must, as there's existing ammonia and chlorine in our tap water.

The fish seem happy. The colors on our Neon Tetras are brighter than I've seen them in a while.

All you need to use is Ammo Lock to detox ammonia so the biofilter can remove it. IMHO Stress Zyme is not helping your tank or biofilter. The beneficial bacteria necessary to start and complete your Cycle are already in your tank..it does have to expand (grow). That's what the cloudy water blooms are..beneficial bacterial growth for the biofilter. Ammo Lock does detox chlorine and chloremide also. Ammo Lock is all you need with your water changes.

I use Prime to detox my tap water, but Ammo Lock does about this same thing. Really, that's all you need plus some time for the biofilter (beneficial bacteria) to grow. And keep that filter running. :c10:

[Taurus]

Fixed-
I forget to mention that you could be getting false high ammonia readings. Most ammonia test kits test for total ammonia. When using water conditioners like Ammo Lock or Prime, NH3 (ammonia) is converted into NH4 (ammonium) which is a less toxic form, but still provides fuel for your biofilter. Most test kits test for total ammonia (NH3\NH4), so your test may be high based on ammonia & ammonium. An ammonia test kit that tests for NH3 alone would be more helpful in determining the actual toxic form of ammonia that is in your tank.
This does happen with Prime. That's why I use a test kit (Sera) that tests only for NH3. I hope my posts have been helpful. I really do hate to see you using more chemicals to treat your tap water than are necessary. The practice will only lead to an unhealthy environment that does more harm than good for your fish.
Taurus

[fixedwing71]

The saga continues....

The short version is that the ammonia is still 8.0, and the nitrates/nitrites are zero.

Since the last time I posted, I did a 25% water change on the 13th. We wanted to let the tank sit for a while so went almost a week until the 19th (this past Saturday) in which we performed another 25% water change and cleaned the filter. We were very very careful with the filter media - extremely gentle rinsing in old tank water and popped it right back into the filter. Ammonia levels didn't drop. Last night I performed a 43% water change - probably half the water in the tank when the rocks are taken into account - wich equaled exactly 12 gallons. We checked the bottle of Ammo Lock and sure enough, it detoxifies chlorine/chlorides. So with the past two water changes, we only added Ammo Lock.... and only enough Ammo Lock to detoxify the NEW water going into the tank. We didn't add any StressZyme.

We put in the new filter and new rocks on the 6th, so we're using that date as the start of the new cycle. It's been a little over two weeks since we started the cycle and the ammonia is still at 8.0 with no increase in nitrites. The water goes from very cloudy to semi-clear, which I'm assuming is the bacterial blooms.

So we're talking about another 12 gal/43% water change tomorrow night to try to get the ammonia down a bit. I can only assume that the fish are still alive is because of the Ammo Lock detoxifying the ammonia in the water. We're really hoping to see some signs of the cycle progressing soon.

[RainMan]

If I were you... I would pack them fish up and give them to the LFS... maybe they can hold onto them for you or something. I really can't believe your fish are still alive for this long at that ammonia level. I mean... 2 is toxic and kills most fish within a few days. Are you sure your tests are accurate?

Again, if this were me... I would save my fish and cycle that tank safely without them being in there. Although, I'm not sure what the shock would be to your fish at this point??

[fixedwing71]

Well, that's the thing. They seem fine; they aren't lethargic and they are smimming around like normal. These current fish have been in the tank for quite some time.... 2 months maybe? We haven't lost a fish in a while. So that's what makes me think that I have one of two possible things going on here -

1. The Ammo Lock is detoxifying the ammonia, so while the tests read positive for ammonia, it's not harming them.

2. My API test kit is horribly inaccurate.

I can take some water over to Pet Smart AND PetCo (we have both now, less than 1 mile from each other), and have them test my ammonia and see what the level is. That will at least tell me if my test kits is even close to being accurate.

And we've thought about doing something with the fish while the cycling goes on, but if they are used to this environment, the shock might kill them. I guess it's just more water changes until the tank starts to cycle. Well, I should say, show us a sign that it's cycling.

[RainMan]

I can't help thinking that either the test or something you are using in your tank is giving a false reading of ammonia.

I still think your issue is related to the ammo lock product you're using. At the very least, it has to be giving you a false reading.
Are your nitrites and nitrates that high too... or is it just ammonia?

How many fish and what are they?
How much are you feeding?
What is the temp of your tank?

[fixedwing71]

Nope, the ammonia is 8.0 and the nitrates/nitrites are 0. They have been that way since the beginning.

We have a total of 8 fish -

1 female Betta
3 Rasporas
3 Neon Tetras
1 Zebra Danio

Since we realized that we're starting a new cycle, we have been feeding them only once a day. We're giving them the tropical 'disks' that they all seem to love, and we give them only enough so that it's all gone after a minute or so.

The temp of the tank is 79-80 deg. F. I think I have the heater turned as far down as it can go, but the temp continues to stay at 79-80 deg. F.

[RainMan]

There is no way you have zero nitrites in a tank that has been setup for that long. That's impossible... isn't it??? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That seems like an okay stock for a 29 gal. tank (iirc?). Way too much for setting up a tank... but after 2 months things should be okay by now.

Okay... first things first.... test some bottled water... there is no ammonia in that. If you read 0 ammonia.. then your test might be okay.

If zero ammonia above... try dilluting a sample from your tank. Try doing a 50/50 bottled water to tank water test. By rights it should be half of what your last reading was. If it reads the same.. then something is wrong. Try dilluting it down even more and retesting. Let me know what happens.

[RainMan]

The temp of the tank is 79-80 deg. F. I think I have the heater turned as far down as it can go, but the temp continues to stay at 79-80 deg. F.

Actually, warmer water is better for increasing the cycle time. 82 would be even better. But, make sure you have good aeration and surface agitation.

[fixedwing71]

Took water to Pet Smart and PetCo today. The girl at Pet Smart said 'whoa' when she read the ammonia results: off the chart. PetCo told me my ammonia was zero because my nitrates and nitrites are zero. That tells me my testing is accurate, as the ammonia now tests a darker green than is on the little card....

...until I bought one of those 'instant real-time' ammonia gauges that you stick in the tank. It's supposed to be instantaneous, but it's been in the tank for almost three hours and it's registering zero ammonia. Granted, my API kit does NH3/NH4, and this submersible gauge only does NH3. So that means I have NO harmful ammonia, or the gauge sucks.

I also bought an ammonia remover bag for my AC-70 filter, but have yet to install it, since the submersible gauge reads zero ammonia. So now I'm more confused than ever, because:

The girl at PetCo said, "Only do a 15% water change every three or four days".

The people in the checkout said, "We've only changed the water twice in our tank, and it's been two months!!"

The book my wife is reading says, "Frequent water changes is the key to a successful tank cycle!"

On Sunday, it will be three weeks since we started the cycle. My ammonia is off the charts (or is it?), I have zero nitrates/nitrites, and I honestly believe we're not doing something right. Or are we? The fish are still alive, and supposedly healthy.

I can see why so many people give up on a fish tank before it's established.

[irresistaple_kai]

I love the Marineland products myself. I have never had a problem with any of them and they have always worked wonderfully on all my community tanks.

[RainMan]

I'm confused as well... 3 weeks and you're getting 0 nitrites/nitrates and your ammonia is off the charts. hmmmmm??? Very strange.

I know how frustrating it is to see multiple opinions. It's really bad in the aquarium world. I've gone back and forth... and back again on stuff. Eventually, you will find a majority opinion and you will also find out what works for you. It's a bumpy ride sometimes. :)

Have you tried taking some freshwater (not from your tank) and adding ammo lock and testing it I wonder if it will register ammonia. I still think you should ween yourself off from using that stuff. There is no need for it in an established tank. I've never tried it and have never had any ammonia issue at all.

Okay... I just did a search and this confirms it... And I found many others.
Another common cause of false high ammonia readings is the use of ammonia-binding chemicals such as Aquarium Pharmaceuticals' Ammo-Lock and Kordon's AmQuel. These products and their byproducts cause high readings on test kits which use the Nessler method, which is unfortunately almost all the popular sets. A Salicylate-based kit would need to be used to determine true ammonia values in tanks containing ammonia-binding agents. -False Ammonia Readings ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])


Google this for more results: "ammo lock" false readings

Start using API Stress Coat... and you won't have anymore false readings. I use it and it works great... the added aloa is good for your fish slime coat as well.

[Taurus]

[QUOTE=fixedwing71]
...until I bought one of those 'instant real-time' ammonia gauges that you stick in the tank. It's supposed to be instantaneous, but it's been in the tank for almost three hours and it's registering zero ammonia. Granted, my API kit does NH3/NH4, and this submersible gauge only does NH3. So that means I have NO harmful ammonia, or the gauge sucks.[QUOTE=fixedwing71]

Is the "in the tank" gage a Seachem Ammonia Alert? If it is and it reads zero for NH3, then there is almost 0 ammonia in your tank. Trust the Seachem Alert. I use one myself and varify it's readings with a Sera NH3 test kit. I think the API kit is reading high NH4 for ammonimum, in other words a false reading. The gauge does not suck, it is accurate.

[Taurus]

Start using API Stress Coat... and you won't have anymore false readings. I use it and it works great... the added aloa is good for your fish slime coat as well.

Stress Coat binds ammonia too! Stress coat, Ammo Lock, Prime, Amquel+ all do the same thing..so it really doesn't matter which one you use as long as you use only one. I still think your getting false readings for ammonia. Your getting readings for total ammonia including ammonium.

Change as much water as you which. Beneficial bacteria build up in your filter and the filter media and that takes time. Doing water changes will not deter growth of the beneficial bacteria in your filter. I do 50 - 75% water changes weekly and I've never had any diesease or parasites in my tank. Fresh water fish love fresh water. Think about that. In nature, how many water changes per day do the fish get?

Do not have your water test at petco. They use the test "strips" which are know to be very inaccurate. And they test for "total ammonia." Relax, do your water changes and let those filters run. After one month, if you are still getting high readings for ammonia, change your filter media because it has become saturated with ammonia. One month then change the mechanical filter media...then watch that ammonia drop to zero.

[fixedwing71]

OK, so here we go with the latest drama -

I performed a 50% (14 gallon) water change tonight. I cleaned the gravel just a bit to get some of the fish waste out, but did not change nor disturb anything else. I only added Stress Coat to the tap water I was putting in the tank. I did see where the bottle said it removes ammonia from tap water... I never knew that before. I did NOT add Ammo Lock. I had to add something to remove the chlorine. The water seems pretty clear.

I tested the tank water with the API test kit. Even with a 50% water change, the ammonia was off the chart at 8+. The NH3 gauge that's in the tank still reads zero ammonia.

Tested spring water - zero ammonia. Tested a vial of 1/2 spring water and 1/2 tank water, and the test read a 4. Tested tap water, it read 0.5. So I guess that means the test is right, but does that mean my fish are still swimming in 8+ ammonia? The API kit reads 8+ but the submersible gauge reads zero. *sigh*

[Taurus]

Hi Mike-
Are the fish showing any signs of stress? I don't think any fish would still be alive with a true NH3 reading of 8. I still say that your API test kit is off and reading total ammonia NH3\NH4. I would trust the Seachem Ammonia Alert because it's not detecting any NH3.
Keep up with your water changes. Do 25 to 50% every other day and remember that water changes will not hurt the beneficial bacteria growth in your filter, as long as you're adding Stress Coat to the new water and will do only good for the fish.

[fixedwing71]

The fish actually seem to be... well.... happy. They are swimming around and don't look lethargic. Grace, the Betta, likes to wedge herself in-between the ammonia gauge and the glass... goofy fish!

The submersible gauge is a Mardel. I picked it up at Pet Smart 3-4 days ago. I don't remember seeing any other brand of gauges, but I can certainly check PetCo and see if they carry the Seachem brand.

The water is cloudy this morning, which I'm assuming is a bacteria bloom. I'll do a 25% water change tomorrow and see if the ammonia goes down on the API test kit.

[Taurus]

Is your Mardel meter a LiveNH3 Test Meter? If it is, it's testing for NH3 or ammonia. Since it reads zero for NH3 and your fish seem happy and not stressed, trust the meter. And yes, the next time you purchase a NH3 meter or gage, try to get a Seachem Ammonia Alert. They will last for a year instead of just one month. Lol..I may get blistered for saying this, but I think you should throw that API Ammonia Test Kit away because it's only causing anxiety and stress on you. Keep your AC70 running..do not stop it unless you need to rinse the sponge because of food and\or waste material inhibiting flow. Rinse it gently in used aquairum water. You'll have plenty of the with all of that water changes your doing.

Remember this also. Carbon does not remove ammonia from aquarium water. Activated carbon removes tannins, which tint the aquairum water brownish\yellowish but do not harm your fish, and phennols which can cause the fishy smell in your tank. With all the water changes that you're doing, I think the carbon is of minimal benefit and you should remove it from your filter. Replace the carbon bag with another sponge for your AC70, that's right, two sponges, on on top of the other and the biomax. If you need to cut one sponge so that both sponges and the biomax stack in your filter basket. I run my AC30 with two sponges and no carbon

[RainMan]

I have to disagree... I've never had a problem with Stress coat and false postive ammonia readings. The API tests are perfectly fine. Lots of people use them here (and swear by them). I still say stop using the ammo lock to get proper readings... because chances are, another test kit will do the same thing. But, that is opinion... and not proven or researched.

However, I totally agree on the carbon... you have to replace it every 2 weeks. It's only useful for removing medication and fishy smell (which shouldn't ever be a problem). Sponges and other media work great.

[fixedwing71]

Yes, it's a Mardel Live NH3 Meter. Says it lasts 4-6 weeks. We were going to see how it does before buying any more. Figured it was worth $5 to check it out.

This last water change, we did NOT put in any Ammo Lock. I plan to make another water change tomorrow night, probably 25%, and the plan is not to use Ammo Lock any more unless we absolutely have to. In fact, I think Jennifer is going to take the new, unopened bottle of Ammo Lock back to Pet Smart so we can get a refund. I'm hoping with the frequent water changes in the near future, the ammonia levels that the API test is still showing will eventually go down.

I bought one of those Ammonia Remover pouches for the AC70 filter but have yet to install it since the Mardel NH3 gauge still shows zero ammonia. When I change the water tomorrow night I will remove the charcoal and throw it out - it's been in there three weeks and needs to come out anyway.

When can I start cleaning out the gravel more aggressively? When I did it last night it seemed really dirty and it stirred up some dirt/dust so I stopped and just drained the water. The bacteria lives in the gravel too, right? Or is that not the case?

[Taurus]

The API Ammonia test kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) ammonia. The Mardel Ammonia Test Meter tests for free ammonia only (NH3 only). Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. Ionized ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. Most Ammonia Test Kits (salicylate or nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the ph of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and re-release the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.

[Taurus]

"When can I start cleaning out the gravel more aggressively? When I did it last night it seemed really dirty and it stirred up some dirt/dust so I stopped and just drained the water. The bacteria lives in the gravel too, right? Or is that not the case?"

Yes bacteria live in the gravel too. But the bacteria in your filter and it's growth is more important. I would clean the gravel aggressively, but not so much that it disturbs any plants. Excess food and waste in the gravel breaks down and causes ammonia to rise.

[RainMan]

The API Ammonia test kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) ammonia. The Mardel Ammonia Test Meter tests for free ammonia only (NH3 only). Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. Ionized ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. Most Ammonia Test Kits (salicylate or nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the ph of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and re-release the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.


I understand that Taurus. I don't think stress coat does anything to remove ammonia??? I might be wrong. but, if this were the case, it would seem that I would show positive ammonia levels when I do my testing.

My point is... you don't need to try and remove ammonia or buy any products to do it for you. If the system is cycled and maintenance is done... it will happen naturally.

[Taurus]

Agreed, if your tank is cycled! I'm not sure Mike's tank is completely cycled. Stress coat claims to remove ammonia. I've never used it before, I must confess. I've always used Prime. Guess I'm a Seachem fanboy because Prime is the best water conditioner I've every used.

[RainMan]

NO kidding... I just looked at the bottle and it does say it removes ammonia. Not in big letters.. just on the back after removes chlrine and chloramines...

I'm a big fan of Seachem too... It's easier to get the stress coat though. They even sell it at Wally World.

[Taurus]

As I understand, breaking the chlorine\chloramine bond releases ammonia, therefore the water conditioner has to neutralize the free ammonia.

I know Prime is expensive, but you only have to use a few drop per gallon, so in the long run it's less expensive? Wish we could get it at Wally World! The only way I can get Prime locally is at Petco. I could order it on line, but by the time I pay shipping fees, I might as well buy it at Petco.

I do know this, Prime and frequent water changes help to keep my tank and water parameters in balance which keeps my fish happy..parasite and diesease free.

Hey, I'm always willing to listen and learn. That's what makes this forum such a great place for sharing knowledge and new ideas.

Oh look...I'm not a guppy anymore..is that a good thing..lol?

[fixedwing71]

I'm going to do another water change tonight; I was thinking 25% is enough but the wife wants a 50% water change. I plan to remove the charcoal from the filter also. I was going to add the ammonia remover to the filter but don't know if that's overkill or not. I guess what I'm worried about is the ammonia being removed from the tank and the bacteria won't have any ammonia to feed off of. I guess that won't be a problem with 8+ ammonia on the API test and 8 fish, huh? The Mardel gauge still reads zero NH3.

[Taurus]

Oh sorry Mike, I got busy yesterday and didn't see your last post. I would not use the ammonia remover (zeolite?). Put in the extra sponge and biomax.
Trust the Mardel meter if your fish are looking happy. And yes a 50% water change would be fine.

[Taurus]

Mike-
Are you testing for nitrates? If not, please start. With all the water changes you're doing, nitrates probably won't test very high. If and when a test comes back positive for nitrates, that will give us an indication of where your tank is in it's cycle. Before you do a water change, test for nitrates. Keep us posted, as you can, and let us know what happening. :thumb:

[Taurus]

Mike-
This article posted at Badman's Tropical Fish Forum explains things perfectly.
All credit should go to Dan at Badman's Forum.

Badman's Tropical Fish
Miscellaneous => Water Chemistry => Topic started by: Dan on April 21, 2006, 12:35:41 PM


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Title: Ammonia Into Ammonium
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2006, 12:35:41 PM
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Quote
I've read several instances where the advise stated,was that somehow ammonia gets converted to ammonium with the addition of some type of water conditioner. Can someone explain (just so I can get a clear picture) of how this happens? I was under the impression that ammoia/ammonium were kind of 'locked up' together and the toxic part was dependent on pH? The higher the pH, the more toxic. The lower the pH, the less toxic, down to being non-toxic.

It?s a continuum. You always get both ammonia and ammonium, never just one or the other. At pH above 7 you get gradually more ammonia (NH3), while at pH below 7 there's less and less ammonia. The pH determines exactly what the ratio will be. Even at a pH of 8.5, the amount of "ammonia" (NH3) is only 15% of the total ammonia and ammonium (presumably meaning 85% is ammonium). At pH of 7.0, less than 1% is ammonia NH3, and at pH of 6.0, 0.15-0.25 percent ammonia. At higher pH, there is still usually *mostly* ammonium, but the highly reactive un-ionized ammonia proportion is just greater. For example, 64% will still be ammonium at 20C/68?F and pH=9

pH %ammonia
7.0 0.5
7.5 1.5
8.0 4.7
8.5 13.7
9.0 35.8
9.5 62.1

Books try to oversimplify things to the level of the average hobbyist, who is not a chemist, but the downside is that you don't get the whole picture. I suspect that water conditioners that purport to 'detoxify ammonia,? do so by protonization using amines or chlorides.

Good reference: Glodek, Garrett S. "Ammonia in the Closed System Aquarium," FAMA, June 1991.

So, if total ammonia is testing at 8.0 ppm and your pH is 7.0, the free ammonia (NH3) is 8 x .005=0.04 ppm, very close to 0 free ammonia. That explains the API Test Kits readings and the Mardel Test Meter readings.

[fixedwing71]

Wow, thanks for digging up all of that information! There's so much to having a fish tank... wow.

Jennifer just called me and asked if I had changed the water in the tank... I did a 50% water change tonight, threw away the charcoal, and installed the AC70 ammonia remover. I'm sorry, I saw your post AFTER doing the water change.

Jen is usually the one who checks the chemicals in the morning. She calls me with what we've been calling "The Fish Report". It's the same thing every day... 8+ ammonia, zero nitrates, and zero nitrites. We are anxiously waiting for the day we test for lower ammonia and higher nitrates.

Does the cycle go ammonia ---> nitrites ---> nitrates? Or do I have it backwards?

**edit** After the water change, the Mardel gauge shows 0.02 "Caution". We'll make sure to check all the chemicals tomorrow morning and see where we are.

[RainMan]

Does the cycle go ammonia ---> nitrites ---> nitrates? Or do I have it backwards?

You got it right... Nitrogen Cycle... here's a good graphical representation of the cycle process: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[fixedwing71]

As of the morning of May 1st -

Mardel NH3 gauge - 0.02 "caution"
API ammonia NH3/NH4 - 4 (that's down from 8!)
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
pH - 6.4 (up from 6.0)

I cleaned out the gravel last night to get some of the fish waste out of it. I didn't go crazy or move the ornaments or anything, but I guess that's why the Mardel gauge finally shows some ammonia. I very very gently swished out the media sponge filter in a bucket of tank water and immediately replaced it when I installed the ammonia remover.

[Taurus]

Steady as she goes. It takes time for the AO bacteria to build up in your filter. You are using the biomax, right? Rainman...any suggestions?

I suggest you go here [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] and read up on bacteria.

[Taurus]

Mike, what's the pH of the water straight from the tap?

[Taurus]

The ammonia remover in your filter is a resin called zeolite. The zeolite is only good as an ammonia remover for about 3 weeks. At that time, you need to remove it from your filter. If you don't, the zeolite will deteriorate and release ammonia back into your tank.

My experience with zeolite has not positive. I had some in a filter in another tank a couple for years ago. I went on vacation and when I came back, the zeolite had broken apart and released ammonia back into the tank killing some fish. I haven't used it since.

[fixedwing71]

Here's the latest from the Tank of Doom -

Mardel NH3 gauge - 0.00
API ammonia NH3/NH4 - 8
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
pH - 6.0
Temp - 80F

Not sure if it has anything to do with it, but ever since the last water change the water has been crrrrrystal clear. Maybe cause the charcoal bag is gone? Who knows - it's like I'm stuck in a perpetual Stage 1 of filtration.

[Taurus]

How are your fish looking? Do they appear stressed? Are they flashing (rubbing against) any aquarium decor?

If the fish are not looking stressed, I think you're ok. Trust the mardel gage, keep your filter running, keep doing the partial water changes. LOL...and have patience.

[fixedwing71]

The fish look fine. They aren't rubbing up against anything at all. They are just swimming around. Even the one Neon Tetra that used to hide all the time has been out and about for the past few days.

Meant to do a water change last night and ran out of time. I'm going to do one tonight.

I have patience, but what makes me impatient is that I have no idea of the timeline. I'm frustrated more than anything else because I know we did this wrong from the beginning and we're in a unique situation. But like you said... steady as she goes.