Overstocking 46g

[smcurry83]

I've been told by many people and read many places that a tank with mbuna should be overstocked to deter aggression. I have an idea of the stocking I want to have, but I'm curious how overstocked is TOO MUCH for a 46g tank?

[jbeining75]

46 gallon with mid mbunas could probably get 8-10 africans in there if they have enough room to run and enough space to hide. Is your 46 gallon a hexagon tank??? If so maybe something other than mbunas would be right for it. The hex tanks don't give them enough room to run from aggression.

[smcurry83]

It's a bow front. Right now I have 4 mbuna's and the tank looks very empty as far as fish.

[jbeining75]

If it is a bowfront you could get 8 or so in there. How big are the mbuna and what types if you know the names...

[smcurry83]

2 kenyi's and 2 electric yellows. the biggest yellow is almost 2 inches, and the biggest kenyi is about 1.5 inches

[RainMan]

I agree with Jamie... 8 max. Those are common med. size mbuna. They will be 3-6" in a year or 2. Your electric yellows generally stay smaller up to 4".

5" avg fish x 8 = 45. That's about right according to the rule of 1" of fish per gallon. Weekly waterchanges will be important though.

The Kenyi are really aggressive... anyone have any tips on the stocking for Kenyi to keep aggression down? The reason I worry, is because your electric yellow cichlids are not so aggressive. Maybe they would work together? I've never tried it though.

Anybody?

[smcurry83]

I've actually notice that my yellow's are more agressive than my kenyi's. They all seem to get along pretty well though.

[Fishguy2727]

If you want to end up with 8, you should put in about 12 or so now. That way you will still have enough after you remove the ones that are too aggressive or get picked on.

[country_boy454]

If you want to end up with 8, you should put in about 12 or so now. That way you will still have enough after you remove the ones that are too aggressive or get picked on.

Sounds about right to me!

[RainMan]

If you want to end up with 8, you should put in about 12 or so now. That way you will still have enough after you remove the ones that are too aggressive or get picked on.

Yeah... that is probably the reality of it.

[Dixie]

I'm working now on getting a bigger tank. From what I understand, kenyi shouldn't be kept in anything less than a 75g. tank and there should be at least 3-4 females per male to keep aggression down. I really don't think the yellow labs (elect. yellows) will make the best tank mates for adult kenyi. Red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) would be more on the kenyi's aggression level and make better tank mates.

[RainMan]

I'm working now on getting a bigger tank. From what I understand, kenyi shouldn't be kept in anything less than a 75g. tank and there should be at least 3-4 females per male to keep aggression down. I really don't think the yellow labs (elect. yellows) will make the best tank mates for adult kenyi. Red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) would be more on the kenyi's aggression level and make better tank mates.


That's what I was thinking too... thanks for reinforcing that idea. From my experience... the Yellows tend to be the target of a lot of cichlids agression. :)

[smcurry83]

I believe you guys, but my yellows are the aggressive ones compared to the kenyis. The kenyis don't bother each other or the yellows. The yellows on the other hand, pick on each other and kenyis... Maybe there's some identity theft issues in my tank!

[Wyomingite]

If your gonna crowd them to reduce agression, then making sure to maximize hiding places is just as important as a high ratio of females to males. It is also easier to achieve if you want a variety of species in a smaller tank. I use a maze of PVC pipes of varying lengths siliconed together. This increaase the hiding spots for far less volume than wood or rock. Since it isn't very attractive, put it in the center and back of the aquarium and cover it with rocks.

I have kept electric yellows with kenyi long term, but that was in a 220 with auratus, rusty cichlids, Labeotropheus fuelleborni, socolofi, and callipterus haps (Astatotilapia calliptera), so there were plenty of hiding places and the aggression was spread out. The stocking level was low for tank size, with plenty of jungle val to break up the balance of the tank that the rocks didn't cover. I tried to maintain a male and 2-4 females of each species, but always had a few juveniles I couldn't catch swimming around in there as well. I've never tried it long term in a smaller tank, anything smaller I kept as a species tank. I'm afraid you may have problems in the future.

WYite

[Dixie]

Yep. I'm thinking there will problems later. The reason the yellow labs seem the most aggressive now is because the kenyi are still young. They won't get mean until they mature. I think both your kenyi are females. Didn't you say they were 1.5"? At that size a male would be yellow with brown stripes then turn all yellow as it got older. Females can be just as mean as males though so I think I'd get rid of the kenyi (maybe trade then in at the LFS) and get a more mellow species to go with the yellow labs. Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusty cichlids) would make a better mix for the yellow labs in that size tank IMO. Good luck!

[RainMan]

In the end... they will all be aggressive in that small tank. I'm going to post up my 45gal experiences when I get a chance. But, trying to do a community tank with random cichlids... is just not working as they get more mature. It's total chaos.

I am moving to a one species tank... I might try 2 before I give up. But, rusty and yellow labs would be worth a shot. Good temporment match.

[Dixie]

I'm still learning alot and some of it the hard way. I thought a 55g. tank was huge and just started throwing pretty fish in it. I made sure they were all mbuna cichlids (except for the leporinus,plecos, & recently 2 little N. brichardi that I couldn't resist) but didn't take into consideration much of anything else. Now after researching the different species I have (and alot of others too) I'm finding out that a 55g. isn't nearly big enough for that many different species of cichlids. My fish were all small when I got them and that helps alot but as they are maturing trouble is starting so I'm working on getting a 5 ft. long tank plus keeping the 55g. running and possibly using another 55g. tank I have (not set up yet) too. Still there will be fish I will probably have to get rid of. The best advice I could give would be to research alot about the fish you want before trying them. Just because they may all be classified as malawi or mbuna or whatever doesn't mean they would get along. You need to know about each particular species.

[Wyomingite]

I am moving to a one species tank... I might try 2 before I give up. But, rusty and yellow labs would be worth a shot. Good temporment match.

I want to focus more on SA cichlids when I'm up and running again, but just can't bring myself to not have one Malawi tank and one Tanganyika tank. I'm thinking yellows, rusties and socolofi for some blue. Socolofi are about the most mellow blue mbuna I've ever kept, and in a big enough tank I think it should be fine.

WYite

[smcurry83]

I think I'm going to stock my tank with a few different species. As long as what I read about a particular species doesn't throw up any red flags, I'll try it out. Once I'm fully stocked, I'll start picking out the trouble makers and replacing them. I want a colorful, varied tank, but peaceful at the same time. I know some fish are known for bad behaivor and not getting along well, but from what I've seen in my tank so far, sometimes it's just dependent on the individual fish. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

By the way, I think the next addition will be a pair of bumble bee cichlids....

[Dixie]

A quote from me:I think both your kenyi are females. Didn't you say they were 1.5"? At that size a male would be yellow with brown stripes then turn all yellow as it got older.

I read the whole thread again and don't see where you said anything about what color the kenyi are. I must have been medicated when I wrote that. Yea bumble bees are cool and a nice jaguar would make a pretty center piece fish;)

[smcurry83]

Thanks for bringing that up. The kenyis are both still blue with black stripes. I was kinda thinking the same thing. The yellows are really hard to tel male and female apart. So I have no idea about those two....

[RainMan]

You'll be fine with bumble bees (p. cabro)... make sure you pick out males. Look for the darkest ones. They should almost be all blackish/brown with very little yellow between the bars.... I had 2 of them. They ended up being picked on by my red zebra. so I had to remove them. They were getting severaly punished. Poor buggers! I always try to keep bumble bees... they look so cool. But i never have any luck with them. They are one of the fastest growing cichlids I've seen though.... next to the red zebra.

When your cichlids mature... you're gonna have issues. Just be prepared to do some swapping and adjustments in your stock. Again... I suggest you get rid of the Kenyi before you get too attached.

Another cool fish species to get.... is a yellow tail acei (you could get about 4 of them. They are cool because they will actually use the upper part of your tank. I had a few highly stacked rock structures in my tank.... and this fish always occupied the penthouse.

So if I were you I would do this combo:
Bumbles
yellow labs
acei
and maybe some rusties to mix it up.

But, I wouldn't go any further than that... with the size of your tank. All of these fish are relatively peaceful and do not resemble eachother.

[RainMan]

Actually... I got confused. The bumblee bees I took out because they were aggressive... but once I took them out the red zebra took over.

Sorry... I'm not suggesting the bumblee bees anymore.

[RainMan]

Actually... I got confused. The bumblee bees I took out because they were aggressive... but once I took them out the red zebra took over.

Sorry... I'm not suggesting the bumblee bees anymore.

I just searched around... and found I wasn't the only one that has had cabro issues.

[smcurry83]

So I added four new fish today. Two Bumble bee's and two Auratas'.... (sp) The tank seems a little rowdy right now, but we'll see if they calm down soon. I'm sure there will be a trouble maker or two that will have to be removed and swapped out... I'll keep you guys updated as things develope.....

[Dixie]

I was kidding when I said the bumble bee's would be cool because I thought you were being sarcastic,smcurry83. They are suppose to be very aggressive as are the auratus. I don't REALLY recommend the jaguar either.

Yep, Rainman. The red zebras are pretty bad too. I'm having trouble with one of those right now. He's the biggest fish in the tank and just thinks his stuff is tops. He hasn't hurt anybody but tries to keep the other 2 red zebras up in a corner. I was hoping to have my other 55g. set up this week so I could do some seperating but per normal something came up (got my hand hurt pretty badly and can't do alot). If he doesn't settle down (and I really don't look for him to) I'm going to put him in a breeder box as a time out.

Maybe I should do away with my list of fish in my signature. I was hoping people would learn from my mistakes but it doesn't seem to be working:(

Good luck smcurry83. Just keep an eye on them. As young fish none of them are very aggressive usually but when they start to get breeding age that's when the trouble starts. I've really enjoyed my tank this far with all kinds of fish that I wouldn't have got if I knew what I was doing lol. I started the tank the end of summer and just now starting to have a little trouble so it has been worth it for me. Now I'm needing more tanks or need to get rid of some fish though. Just be prepared and I wish you lots of enjoyment from your tank and the best of luck.

[smcurry83]

Thanks.

First off, I rearranged the entire tank today. I figured that might throw everyone off and they could reestablish (spelling?) their territories. This would give the new ones a chance at some real estate. They seem to be calming down and they're all just swimming around and enjoying the tank.

I'm brainstorming a project that will be a nice rock/lava rock wall with a ton of caves and tunnels, for a more natural looking tank. So hopefully I get that started soon. For one, the tank will look more natural, and two, the fish will have a lot more space to claim and swim....

I also found out that there are a few lfs in the area that will trade fish. So if I do develope problems, I have an exit strategy....

Thanks again.

[RainMan]

I also found out that there are a few lfs in the area that will trade fish. So if I do develope problems, I have an exit strategy....

Thanks again.

You'll need that exit strategy with that selection. LOL I guess you can't learn until you try. You'll have fun with them anyway. I'm with Dixie... I don't regret the bad combo of fish mistakes I made. It keeps it interesting!

Good luck

[smcurry83]

And honestly... I already want a larger tank (90-120), but there's !NO! way my better half is gonna go for that any time soon.

...BUT, if the fish aren't getting along, and have to removed from the tank, the wife and daughter might be too attached to see them go. So the only other option would be a larger tank! LOL! So either way it's a win-win for me! :c12:

[RainMan]

ahhhh... I see your master plan now. LOL I'll have to remember that one.

[smcurry83]

I thought people might enjoy "the method to my madness" LOL!

[Dixie]

"But Sugar, you don't want to see me cry when that big old auratus, that you picked out, kills my pretty little yellow lab do you?" Gotta add a sniffle here "I'm just sure they would all get along if they had a bigger tank (start batting eyes here) I'm practicing lol.

[Cichlid*Newbie]

I have two red zebras and two kenyis together right now...i had 2 jack dempseys with them, eek, inexperienced me..lol. I took the Dempseys back...they're in a 29 gallon and for now thats the only tank i have..id like to get another sometime but my apartment is only so big..and its my first tank i dont want to get to ahead of myself....

[Dixie]

People talk about how mean the kenyi are. I haven't seen it out of mine yet. When I found out I had a male and a female I did get 2 more females. You're suppose to have 3-4 females per male in at least a 75g. tank. I'm working on getting a bigger tank too. Mine are probably to young to cause problems yet but my red zebra is really starting to show himself. I had heard that they are pretty mean too and I am finding that out first hand. I think the red zebras make pretty good tank mates for kenyi.

[smcurry83]

I've actually seen a lot of "social growth" in my tank over the past two days. Before I added the new fish, the yellows and kenyis stuck to their hidding spots and rarely swam around the open areas of the tank.

Now, all of the eight fish in the tank are constantly swimming around, in and out and in between everything. They've even started swimming higher in the tank. It's very interesting to see all four different cichlids interacting with very little aggression...

I posted some new pics in the gallery if anyone's interested...

[Dixie]

I love pics. I'll go check them out.

[Dixie]

Nice pics! Aren't little kenyi just the cutiest!? I dunno if I can figure out how to put pics in an album here or not lol. Maybe I'll try it sometime but I'm way to tired today.

[RainMan]

You have some really nice pics. I love that face on pic of the auratus. I love cichlids when they are like that!!!

[Dixie]

I know what you mean about "social growth". I added 3 little yellow tailed acei (Pseudotropheus sp. acei) to my tank not long ago. They're a cichlid that likes to swim in groups in the open top part of the tank. They are one of the reasons I'm needing a bigger tank (they like a long tank to swim back and forth & three of them isn't much of a school skoal sp? either). Anyway, since adding them, the other fish are now swimming up higher in the tank too. Really cool.

[Cichlid*Newbie]

I think i may have a male and a female kenyi...one is almost like an orange/pinkish colour...i think i read that the males turn color?? I think they're so neat to watch...and already want a bigger tank...but i think i need to get used to this one first...i love how they chase each other around...they go in and out of all the hiding spots like they're playing hide and seek..

[RainMan]

I loved my yellow tails... They are a really cool fish with very little aggression issues at all. Staying in the upper part of the tank is absolutely amazing. Usually you only see that when one is getting over-bullied by another. :) However, they get fairlly big.... mine was 6" when I got rid of it.

[smcurry83]

Just a quick update...

The tank is just as calm and peaceful as ever. All the fish are swimming around together constantly. They don't fight during feeding either, they all get their share. I have noticed that one of the kenyi has made itself "queen" of the tank, but it's nothing bad. I can just tell how the fish interact, that that particular one demands respect from the rest.

I can't wait to get one more of each so I'll end up with three of each. Once I add the males that I'm missing, that may stir things up a bit. We'll see....

[RainMan]

Thats great... a happy tank is really gratifying. Cichlids are so much fun when they are at this stage. That Kenyi is alreadying proving their aggressive nature. At that age... taking control. That's so cute! hehehe :)

In my experience... It will always seem like one will be the dominant cichlid in the tank. It's funny too... because if you remove the dominant fish... another one will quickly take over the responsibility. As long as there is no real intense bullying or singling out... it will be okay. If you start to see a fish being forced to a corner... remove the fish being bullied... not the aggressor. Unless of course the aggressor picks out another one to bully as soon as you remove that fish. This is when it gets interesting. :)

Anyway, You're gonna have a lot of fun... it will be interesting to see the reactions when you add more fish to your tank. It will also be interesting to hear how things work out over time. 12 cichlids of very different colorations might keep the aggression down to a minimum. Your water change schedule will have to be increased over time. Just remember to keep up with your nitrates... do not slack on that at all.

Very cool... I'm happy for ya!

[Cichlid*Newbie]

I have a pinkish looking kenyi and one with blue, the pinkish one seems to pick on the blue one...not alll the time but just at feeding time...like last night i fed a few flakes and the pink one ate them alll...lol...the zebras aren't to shy though and they're half the size...just the blue kenyi isn't brave enough to swim to the top of the tank..i like watching them bolt to the top and then dive back down to the bottom...they're so quick.

[smcurry83]

When I first got my fish, they wouldn't go to the top to get the pellets. The pellets would never sink either, so they weren't eating. So I ended up crushing the pellets so the food would sink and they would eat. I ended up stopping that because it was just too time consuming.

Eventually they figured out, if they want to eat, they have to go to the top and get the food. Now, they just hang out at the top and eat. As soon as I open the hood, they are at the top waiting for food. They also "attack" anything I put in the tank. (ie the syringe I use for water tests or my fingers!!!)

[RainMan]

You can pre-soak pellets to get them to sink. However, I've heard various contradictions to this. Some say you should do it so they don't swell inside the fish's stomach. Then some say not to presoak because it washes out the vitamins. That's one of the problem of keeping fish... too many contradictions. :)

NLS.... 1mm pellets would be good for your guys. They sink pretty fast, don't dissolve quickly, and are a good staple food.

Just drop a few at a time to make sure the fish eat them before they fall to the gravel.

Here's a tip for that fish that likes to hog up all the food. Use 2 hands to feed (or both sides of the tank). Drop in a little on one side and then a litle on the other side of the tank... the fish can't be in 2 places at once... so, your other fish will quickly learn to check both sides of the tank during feeding. Works pretty good... well, most of the time. Some piggy fish are really good about going from one side to the other. LOL

[Nick89]

You can pre-soak pellets to get them to sink. However, I've heard various contradictions to this. Some say you should do it so they don't swell inside the fish's stomach. Then some say not to presoak because it washes out the vitamins. That's one of the problem of keeping fish... too many contradictions. :)

NLS.... 1mm pellets would be good for your guys. They sink pretty fast, don't dissolve quickly, and are a good staple food.

Just drop a few at a time to make sure the fish eat them before they fall to the gravel.

Here's a tip for that fish that likes to hog up all the food. Use 2 hands to feed (or both sides of the tank). Drop in a little on one side and then a litle on the other side of the tank... the fish can't be in 2 places at once... so, your other fish will quickly learn to check both sides of the tank during feeding. Works pretty good... well, most of the time. Some piggy fish are really good about going from one side to the other. LOL


Lol my oscar does that.. He pretty much bumps into my firemouth out of the way and hogs the food, its very hard to feed my firemouth sometimes with him there.

[smcurry83]

I added two pleco's today. That's how they were labled, so I guess they're just common pleco's. I'm planning on keeping them 'til they start getting too big for my tank and then I trade them for newbies at the lfs... I was thinking about getting a small crab, but they (lfs) said that the cichlids would probably eat it. I'm more worried about the exact opposite.

Does anyone have any suggestions for something unique, non-fish to add to a mbuna tank? (ie snails, crabs, crayfish, eel)

[RainMan]

Nope.... the cichlids are the ones to watch out for. In the wild they eat crustacieans. They'll tear them limb from limb. Plus crabs molt... during that time the cichlids would have an easy feast.

I've heard of a "tang eel" But, no experience with them. That should give you enough to do some research. Let us know what you find out.

[smcurry83]

Well I'm already noticing that one of the bumble bees doesn't care for one of the plecos. All of the fish have came in close and taken a good look at the plecos, but nothing aggresive. Just one of the bumble bees has been attacking one of the plecos every once in a while. I'm hoping that everyone will calm down after a day or so. That's kinda how it went when I added the last fish. We'll see.

[smcurry83]

Well, I was right. Everyone has calmed down and the pleco's are just going along about there business. Man those things are tricky to find sometimes. I looked for one for about five minutes and then realized it was right in front of me the entire time!!!

[RainMan]

Glad to hear that. From what I hear, plecos work really well with african cichlids. What kind of pleco do you have?

[smcurry83]

I think they're just common pleco's. The lfs called them the "plain" ones...

[Dixie]

Glad to hear they've settled in ok. Sounds like you're really enjoying the tank. I'm not having any trouble out of my kenyi yet but it's started with the auratus. Turns out 2 of my 3 were males. I had to take one out because he lost his tail to the other. Now that he's in a tank to himself growing his tail back out, the other male is picking on the female and has her in hiding all the time. For sure both males and maybe the female too will be going back to the LFS.

[RainMan]

Damn them auratus... It took me 3 attempts at them before I finally gave up. Maybe in a huge tank... or maybe there is some magic stocking combo for keeping them happy. They are so cool looking though... and every lfs has them. They are such a tease!!!

[smcurry83]

The tank is really calm and all the fish are constantly swimming all over the tank (top & bottom). The plecos are really great at hiding during the day!!! I've noticed that one of my bumble bees turns completely black sometimes and back to normal in a matter of seconds. I know that's the agressive "look", but he's usually just swimming around when he does it. Cool either way.

[smcurry83]

I should be getting the last four fish this week, as long as I can find a male kenyi & auratus. They both seem hard to come by around here. Well, I take that back.... I found some last week, but they were so rediculously small, I'm sure my fish would've filled their bellies with them!!!

[smcurry83]

Well the only update I have for now is one of my kenyis has taken the throne as king, or I guess queen, of the tank. She also has started turning from a dark blue to very very pale blue, and now even bits of yellow are coming out it the fins. Very strange. It's almost as if it's trying to change to the color of the males.

[Dixie]

How big is it? Males start out blue then change. My male was already male colored (yellow with brown stripes)when I got him at about 1.5". I've read that some don't change until bigger though. Maybe you do have a male after all.

Like I said before, I started out with one male and one female kenyi then I read that there should be 3-4 females per male (of most cichlid species) so I got 2 more females. Now I'm reading that it takes 5-6 females to keep one male kenyi happy and to keep the females from getting picked on to much. So far mine are getting along fine but I guess my male isn't of breeding age yet. That's when the trouble will start.

[smcurry83]

I hadn't even thought of that yet. How silly of me! The yellow is coming out more and more every day. Right now it's kinda ugly, but hopefully it'll turn out nice when it's done. Thanks...

[Dixie]

ok funny thing...when I bought my first 2 kenyi I thought I had a male and a female. The other day my "female" started getting lighter and getting some yellow on it too. Turns out it's a subdom male that's why it was slow getting the male color. I took HIM back to the LFS today (don't want 2 male kenyi in my 55g.) along with my male auratus that had his tail chewed off by the other male. His tail grew back nicely while I had him in the little 1.5g.hex. tank. That freed up the little tank for me to catch the 2 babies I had hiding under rocks in the 55g.and put them in the little hex. I still don't know who had the babies but by the looks of them I'm thinking either auratus or maingano. I have 2 maingano holding now (that's the fish in my avitar).

[smcurry83]

Well, something new to confuse me.... Now one of my auratus is getting really dark. I mean dark! It's belly looks black already. Any ideas about this one???

[smcurry83]

Short update... Tonight I added one each: bumble bee, kenyi, electric yellow. Hopefully all goes well. These three are pretty small compared to the current residents of the tank.

I'm also contemplating getting a few (2-3) mystery snails. Thoughts?

[RainMan]

Cichlids have a habit of biting the snail's eyes... it's not pretty. They'll try real hard to get the entire thing too.

[Collin1104]

Well, something new to confuse me.... Now one of my auratus is getting really dark. I mean dark! It's belly looks black already. Any ideas about this one??? they change like that as they grow! check out this page it has pictures of all the different stages. male and female.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=750

[RainMan]

they change like that as they grow! check out this page it has pictures of all the different stages. male and female.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=750

Use the drop down under the picture on that site. I looked at a lot of pictures before I realized you could flip through many choices using that thing. LOL

[smcurry83]

That's great. Thanks a lot. I guess I'll steer clear of snails....

[RainMan]

Actually... there is some controversy (well not even a debate), but some people have snails in their mbuna tank with no problems. They are cheap enough, I would try it. Get an apple snail (I just learned recently that they won't breed unless you have a female and a male). They are not asexual like a lot of snails are.

Check this video out... I think if this cichlid wanted a snack... it would've taken advantage of that snail. Cool vid anyway. :)
Cichlid defending territory from snail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJCvsvVKxa0)

Oh if you add salt to your tank.. then forget the snails.

[smcurry83]

I guess you're right. If they do kill the snails, I'll only be out 2 or 3 bucks. I also thought the same thing about mini crabs. If the cichlids killed it, no big deal. But if the crab killed a cichlid, I'd be a little pissed.

[smcurry83]

I figured, what the heck... So today I got two gold and two black mystery snails. I moved each of them to a different nook or crany in the tank to deter the cichlids from messing with them. They seem ok so far.

On the average, how long does it take to complete a color tranfomation for a kenyi and auratus? Just curious if anyone knows...

[smcurry83]

Well, maybe the snails aren't exactly being given a warm welcome. I've only seen the snails moving around once. Most of the time I can tell the cichlids have been messing with them because they're flipped over. I think they're getting around at night ok, but they mostly stay in the safety of their shells during the day.

I've also got a couple diggers in the tank now. I've notice a few piles of gravel forming around the tank. I've caught one of my aruatus making a hole under one of my features... Kinda cool I guess.

[RainMan]

Well... the snails were worth a shot and good to confirm for others if they don't work. Sorry, my gutt feeling was no... but, you can't relate to my gutt feelings can you. LOL

I love the digging... just make sure nothing can tip over. Every week the entire backside of my tank is dug down to the glass. I wish I put some of that egg crate stuff down. It's really funny watching them bulldoze there way down, one mouthful at a time. Keeps them busy and out of trouble too.

Sorry I don't know the answer to your other question.
On the average, how long does it take to complete a color tranfomation for a kenyi and auratus? Just curious if anyone knows...

[smcurry83]

Well, I think the cichlids just needed time to probe the snails. Everything seems to be going good now. The snails are crawling around all over the tank. Every now and then I find one tipped over, but no big deal...

[Collin1104]

On the average, how long does it take to complete a color tranfomation for a kenyi and auratus? Just curious if anyone knows...

i have no idea lol my female auratus has never had the yellow that the pictures show but sometimes she gets very dark under her belly which makes me think shes a male but then she has all of the stipes on top that females have.. and shes 2.5 inches and ive had her for a couple of months and havent seen any yellow

[smcurry83]

No new additions as of yet. I think I'm about filled to capacity. I've been making it about a week and a half before I NEED a water change, but I'm doing weekly changes just to be safe. I think the 11 mbuna and 2 plecos is just enough for the 46g I have now. I may add some more snails. I wish I could find something else (something strange and non-cichlid) to add to the tank. From the temperment of all the fish so far, it looks as if I'll be ok with those numbers. Only time will tell...

I added a lot of new pictures. Some of the kenyi and auratis in mid-transformation. Check 'em out - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishpictures/showgallery.php?cat=618

[Dixie]

Hubby bought 3 tiny auratus at the end of summer last year and just recently is when they changed color(male coloration). The pic you posted of your auratus still looks female to me.

With the kenyi it was different. I bought 2 that were pretty small but it was obvious that one was male even then (yellow with kinda brown stripes). I then bought a couple more of what I thought was females because I heard they need at least 3 or more females to keep the male happy. They grew a good bit before one of them finally started truning male color too. I took it back to the LFS because I figured I'd have war with 2 males but have since heard that the female kenyi can start to take on male coloration when breeding or after breeding (I forget which).

I'm not sure what you could get to add to your tank that would be unusual or different. You'll be lucky if the cichlids don't eat the snails. Tank looks good. Thanks for sharing.

[RainMan]

You have snails and plecos.... that's more variation than most people have in their mbuna tanks.

Looks good man! I'm glad things are still going smooth for ya!

[smcurry83]

You have snails and plecos.... that's more variation than most people have in their mbuna tanks.

Looks good man! I'm glad things are still going smooth for ya!

Thanks... I have noticed an interesting trend with the snails: The cichlids seem to mess with the black snails every once and a while, but completely leave the gold snails alone. So maybe that's the reason I hardly ever see the black ones moving around. I think I might add some green and ivory snails, just to see how the cichlids "deal" with them....

[Dixie]

If it seems they go after the darker colored ones, I'd think they might go for the green ones too and leave the ivory ones alone. Let us know.

Oh, I dunno what pic of the auratus I was looking at before lol but I looked again and can tell for sure now that it's turning male colored. Can't remember if I told you about our auratus or not so I'll fill ya in...maybe again lol.

We had 3 small ones, all looked female. Finally 2 started turning male color and one picked on the other so bad I got rid of the one getting picked on. Now the last one has turned male color too but this time the bully is leaving that one alone. I really don't understand it.

Anyway today I got 3 more tiny ones that still look female and put them in a 10g. tank to grow out a little and hopefully I have some females this time.

[smcurry83]

Well, I had my first casualty... I noticed when I got home from work today that one of the black mystery snails is no longer in it's shell. I don't know if it's already been eaten, but I don't see it anywhere. I'm sure someone filled their belly with it!!!

[Dixie]

Awww I bet you're right.

[smcurry83]

Here's my latest update and experience with running an overstocked 46g. My tank has only been set-up for about 3 months now. If you're intersted in my equipment and stocking list, check out my signature... I have found that by doing water changes and gravel vacuming once a week, I really have to change a lot of water. Usually at least 50%. Once every two weeks, I pick up the decorations in the tank so I can vacum everywhere; and I also rinse half of the filters in the tank. That lets my nitrates get up to about 40ppm. The tank stays pretty clean and the water never looks dirty, but I'd rather keep the nitrates a little lower near the end of the week.

After doing a small 20% water change in the middle of the week, I found my nitrates around 20ppm today. So I think from now on, I'll do a 30% water change twice a week. This will help me keep the water level consistent and the tank a lot cleaner throughout the week.

I guess that's just the price of having an overstocked tank. And to think that none of my fish are full grown yet...

[Dixie]

I'm right there with ya brother lol. My tank is way overstocked too. My nitrates were 40ppm at weeks end so I'd do a 50% change which would bring them down to 20ppm then mid week I'd do another 30-50% change.
I've got to admit this got old really quick when I started working out of the home alot more. I've slacked back off to doing just one change weekly but doing OVER 50%. I haven't even checked to see what the nitrates are doing since I've been doing this. Just hoping for the best. Now that school is out I'll keep better track and I think my next payday I'm springing for a new 75g. tank. I'll start a post of my own about that so I don't hijack your thread lol.

How do you like those moonlights you have in your tank? They aren't the only lights are they? What color are they? I'm thinking about adding some. I've seen blue and white and think I like the white best but have only seen pics.

[smcurry83]

How do you like those moonlights you have in your tank? They aren't the only lights are they? What color are they? I'm thinking about adding some. I've seen blue and white and think I like the white best but have only seen pics.

I love the moon lights. I love just sitting and watching the tank with the house completely pitch black!!! I also have a flourescent light for the day. I put the lights on a digital timer that automaticallu alternates the day and moon lights.

My lights are blue. For some reason I thought that white led's would just be too bright for night time. The blue gives the tank a really wild look, and makes the fish look neat as well. If you haven't checked out my gallery lately, you should. I spent a few hours the other night trying to get the setting on my camera perfect so I could get some good shots of the moon lights...

[smcurry83]

Almost forgot... I'm contemplating trading my two auratus' in. The female is a really chill fish and doesn't bother anyone. And I think the male looks awesome since it's started it's color tranformation, but the male has a serious attitude problem. Not all the time, but every once in a while it decides to terrorize everyone in the tank execpt the yellows. I couldn't find the female for a few hours today because it had been scared into hiding... I thought about just adding another auratus to spread the hazing, but I'm afraid it'll turn out to be another male...

Any suggestions? If I do trade them, it'll probably be for one yellow and one kenyi female.

[Dixie]

I've been lucky with the auratus in my 55g. even though I think a 75g. is the recommended minimum size for them. I started out with 3 and they all turned male color. One was picking on another one bad so I returned the one getting picked on to the LFS.

For some strange reason, and that can change at any moment I'm afraid, the 2 remaining male auratus get along fine. I'll be getting a 75g. tank soon so I'm going to try to keep auratus. I just bought some more tiny ones and have them in a 10g. tank to grow out some, hoping for females.

I'd like to take your female off your hands lol. How far is Ashburn from Winchester Va.? Like I said before, kenyi and auratus are suppose to be 2 of the most aggressive mbuna so it's up to you if you want to try keeping them or not. I haven't had any trouble out of my kenyi yet (1M.2F. after taking one back that was turning male colored too) but I'm not real sure I'm going to keep them long term. Kenyi babies sure are cute though.

[smcurry83]

I'm really going to keep an eye on the tank for a while and keep track of how the male auratus acts for a given amount of time. I really don't want to get rid of them, but I'm afraid if I add another female, it'll "be the straw that broke the camel's back". I'm only an hour down Hwy 7 from you Dixie, so if things don't work out, maybe we can talk about a relocation.

[smcurry83]

I don't know if it happened last night or today while I was at work, but now I have TWO EMPTY black mystery snail shells... The gold snails seem to be doing great. I think next week I'll throw two each, ivory and blue, to see how the cichlids treat them. I'm really interested to see if it's the color that's making the difference.

[smcurry83]

Well, it's been a while and everything has been going pretty well. Until now... My male auratus has been severely harassing the female to the point where she wedges herself in the corner between a plant and the glass, but in an upright oreintation as if she's standing up on her tail fin. She stays there most of the day and if she moves around the tank, she's quickly chased back to her corner. The only time she's ok to roam the tank is at night. The male has also been showing a lot of aggression toward the other tank mates.

So I've decided to find a new home for both auratus' and one of my pleco's also. I don't think I need two plecos and eventually I'll have to find something to do with it anyways.

I'm thought about adding one of each: electric yellow, bumble bee, and kenyi (all females) once the other three are gone. I'd also be up to finding another species of mbuna to add as a trio instead. But preferably something semi-docile like the yellows.

Any suggestions???

[kaybee]

In terms of how aggressive and large the fully matured crabro's are (7"-8" as they are among the largest mbuna species) I feel that the bumblebees may eventually ecome problematic in your 46gal. Additionally, when fully matured the aggression level of the kenyi's (even if they are females) may also dictate that a 46gal would be insufficient in the long term (granted they're all sub-adults now).

As I understand it (and I may be wrong) you currently have 3 yellow labs, 3 bumblebees and 3 kenyi.

I'd recommend adding at least one or two more yellow labs (less aggressive species are best kept in larger groups when housed with more aggressive species). Also, aggression is "relative" to the aggression potential of the tank occupants.

An aggressive mbuna species which isn't as aggressive as kenyi or bumblebees may be categorized as 'semi-docile' when viewing their behavior in 'relative' terms. An actual docile species may eventually be outclassed in a 46gal stocked with so many aggressive species, especially if it is the sole representative (easy to single out). Again this is when they're all full grown adults (4"-8" fish).

For something that is less aggressive than the majority and won't bother the yellow labs yet is still equipped to fend for itself as the only one of its kind in the tank, I'd recommend a single pseudotropheus demasoni.

So, 1-2 yellow labs and a demasoni. Despite the vague resemblence between demasoni's and female/juvie kenyi's they won't view each other as conspecifics. Also I feel a larger tank will eventually be needed.

[smcurry83]

You're very right about the level of aggression once all the are full grown. I definitely plan on a larger tank in the future. Hopefully something like a 75g to 90g long. Dreaming would be for a 125g!!! Then I could try my hand at a SW in the 46g.

I really like your suggestions. That's gonna be one of my top choices! It's funny about the yellows. It's almost like they're not even there. You'd think they'd get picked on the most, but they really just get ignored. Even when the male auratus is in it's "mood" and harassing the bumble bees and kenyi, the labs just swim around like it's no big deal!!!

Thanks a lot!!! :thumb:

[smcurry83]

Well, I just got back from a long weekend and I could tell that the female auratus has been harrassed like crazy and doesn't look good at all. So it's definitely time to get rid of both of them. I think I've found someone to take them, so off they go. Hopefully this helps the tank settle down a bit. I'll have to see how everything goes for a while and then decide on new additions...

[RainMan]

I hope you have better luck than I did... once I removed an aggressor another would quickly takes it's place. If I removed the one getting picked on... another one would also take it's place. LOL

I ended up totally removing all of my cichlids this past month and will plan either a one species tank, another type of fish all together, or keep it simply as a grow-out tank for my 100g frontosa tank. I'm in the process of buying a house... so all fish are on hold for now.

Anyway, this was my 4th attempt at keeping mixed communities of mbuna in a 45gal tank. I've tried every possible combination of cichlids I could get my hands on. I'm convinced it isn't possible long-term. Luckily my lfs likes adult cichlids! Anyone that says otherwise has nothing but juveniles. It works great for a few months to a year. But, after that it is a heartbreaking experience. Even if the aggression is relatively manageable.. the tank won't be. I was changing my water 2 times a week and could never keep up with the nitrates with a dozen full-grown cichlids. If I thinned out the numbers than chaos would immediately take over. For instance, while I was trying to find homes for the last 4, it was so bad I had to split them up into 2 tanks. I kept a pair of male powder blue socolofi in one tank... and a rusty and a zebra in the other. They stayed hidden the entire time... unless they were locking mouths. Luckily it was only for about a week.

Try getting rid of all of the Auratus. They are nothing but trouble. Replace them with electric yellows. They work well with most anything I have tried... the socolofi were not aggressive when i was overstocked too. But, bumblebees are going to get big and quickly take over. If I were you, I would try all Kenyi and Yellow Labs... That might work for a while.

[smcurry83]

Well, it's been a few weeks since I got rid of the two aruatus and everything's been going pretty good. There isn't much fighting or chasing going on in the tank between any of the fish. I've have noticed that one of my bumble bees (which is the biggest in the tank) shares the "throne" with my male kenyi. It's almost as if the other fish know that they're in charge so they just stay out of their way.

The newest issue: one of what I thought were my female kenyi is beginning its male color transformation. So I'm going to try and trade him for another "possible" female really soon. I definitely don't need two male kenyis running around my tank.

Also, seems like the snails and plecos are doing great. The cichlids still aren't bothering them at all. Which is pretty surprising considering how fast they ate the black snails! I haven't found a new home for one of the plecos, but I'm still looking.

I haven't put much thought into getting any more fish. If I do though, it'll probably be two or three more electric yellows.

[RainMan]

I think the electric yellows are your best bet. Good job keeping up with everything and making adjustments as needed. This has been a great thread to read! I actually look forward to your updates. :)

[Dixie]

Glad to hear you could find homes for the auratus. My 2 males in the 55g. with gobs of other fish, are still doing ok and I added the 3 juvies that I had in the 10g. tank in with them. Hope they'll all be female (the auratus juvies) but I know I'm not that lucky.

Rainman, so sorry to hear you're giving up for now. I hope you can get at least a 55g. tank after the move and give the malawis another shot. I'm sure the tank size was alot of the problem.

[smcurry83]

Ok, so I'm down to ONE snail now... Oh well, I tried. I never see them mess with the snails either. It's always just one day, there's an empty shell sitting on the bottom! Other than that, the tank is doing fine. Still no new home for one of the plecos. My bumble bees are getting HUGE! I have a feeling that one of my yellows is holding. It's lower jaw looks kind of swollen and it seems to be hiding a lot more. I don't plan on trying to seperate it or do anything special to help out. So if some fry appear and survive, that may be the start to a new (LARGER) tank! And then I'll have a new home for the pleco!!! Only time will tell...

[Dixie]

Awwww you might have baby labs. They are so cute. I hope you do get a larger tank. I think cichlids are so much fun. My plecos are getting big too. I've heard that they stop really cleaning when they get bigger. I've noticed one of mine stays in the same spot for a long long time now. As a matter of fact it didn't look like it had moved in 2-3 days. It's ok though, I checked.