Spotted gar

[goleafs]

I just got a spotted gar. This is the true gar type ( not a needlefish ). He might get a bit big for my tank and might eat my needlefish but appearently my oscar's safe. When I saw it for sale I was like wooooooooowwwwwww so I had to get it. I've never seen a true gar for sale before. Pics soon. It's gonna be pretty cool having a dinosaur in my tank.

[OscarFan]

yeah it will get up to 4 feet. Cant wait to see some pics.

[Drumachine09]

You shouldn't really get a fish that you know you can't provide an proper habitat for. Thats a wee bit irresponsible.

[goleafs]

I hope not. I read that 36" is a big one in the wild and the people at the LFS said it'll get to twice it's size and hes maybe 8 inches now but there trying to sell it lol.

[goleafs]

Well heres some pictures. As bad as they might be....

[OscarFan]

Should work on a bigger tank. But for the most part nice fish.

[gm72]

I hope you have a MUCH larger tank in your very near future. Your 75 is tiny for a fish that size. Unfortunate that they gave you incorrect information and unfortunate that you took said information. The fish will get about 2 feet long. You'll need at least, and I mean AT LEAST a 220 gallon tank.

Goleafs, the following statement does not only apply to you here:
Research people, research. DO NOT BUY FISH UNLESS YOU RESEARCH THEM FIRST!

[goleafs]

Meh he's cool and I like him. If I can get a bigger tank I will within the next year but if I can't a big tank won't be for a while.

[OscarFan]

a year or two. Big fish grow fast.

[Bassfan]

some of those fish get 44".

[gm72]

Meh he's cool and I like him. If I can get a bigger tank I will within the next year but if I can't a big tank won't be for a while.

I'm glad you like the fish, gar are pretty cool. However, if you can't get a far larger tank within a year you really need to return him. Please do not practice inappropriate/irresponsible fish keeping.

[goleafs]

Im trying to get a 180 gallon. I think that is 72x24x24. But I might end up giving him back if I can't get a bigger tank, he's definately good for now.

[shockshockshad]

Even a 180 gallon is too small. gm72 said at least a 220 gallon so that would be saying like puting an oscar in a 55 gallon. Really, the oscar should have a 75-90 gallon. And the gar should really have a 300 gallon. You can get yours here. Scroll all the way down. http://glasscages.com/?sAction=ViewCat&lCatID=2 Nice pictures by the way!

[goleafs]

The difference between 220 and 180 is like the difference between a 90 and a 75. Im pretty sure its just height and its not a case of bio load its a case of room.

[goleafs]

Wow appearently I cannot get another tank unless it goes in my room and a 6-8 foot tank would not fit in my room... grrrr

[gm72]

The gar must go.

[dustinpedley]

thats funny the i can catch spotted gar all day long in my lake. me and my buddies go bow-fishing for them all the time. lol oh well one persons trash is another's treasure. ive caught em up to three feet or so in the wild. they are nasty mean fish btw. maybe i should ry to sell em instead of killing them all the time

[karbomb]

thats funny the i can catch spotted gar all day long in my lake. me and my buddies go bow-fishing for them all the time. lol oh well one persons trash is another's treasure. ive caught em up to three feet or so in the wild. they are nasty mean fish btw. maybe i should ry to sell em instead of killing them all the time
do you eat them?

[dustinpedley]

no not at all theres nothing to em, and they are a nuscence (sp?) fish by me and there is an open limit

[goleafs]

Now it seems like I have a chance to get a 180 gallon. I think I'll give it 4-6 months and see how things are looking then.

[shockshockshad]

It won't do any good. You should just save your money for the 300 gallon.
EDIT: Are you talking about that contest from drs foster and smith? They announce the winner in 5-6 months for that 180 gallon.

[goleafs]

It won't do any good. You should just save your money for the 300 gallon.
EDIT: Are you talking about that contest from drs foster and smith? They announce the winner in 5-6 months for that 180 gallon.

I dont have room for a 300 gallon (a 180 is pushing it) and I'm not talking about that contest.

[shockshockshad]

Oh. It was just a coinicedence then! If you don't have room for the gar, I would return it. You need to. Its gonna get 4 feet long.

[garman]

They won't get more than 2 feet in a tank, hopefully not more than 18 inches. Mine are in a 100 gallon now, but I plan to build a 300-400 gallon tank within a year. Make sure you don't let them go in the western United States. They're restricted and will decimate native fish populations.

These are my favorite fish. Very tame, they eat anything, even flake food, and even let me stroke them as they try and bite my fingers!

I have a heavily planted tank with large wood stumps, some south American gars, these 10 inch Florida spotted gars, 2 tilapia, and a common pleco.

[jman]

I just got a spotted gar. This is the true gar type ( not a needlefish ). He might get a bit big for my tank and might eat my needlefish but appearently my oscar's safe. When I saw it for sale I was like wooooooooowwwwwww so I had to get it. I've never seen a true gar for sale before. Pics soon. It's gonna be pretty cool having a dinosaur in my tank.

you should get like a 10 or 15 gallon and dedicate it to goldfish to treat and breed your own food!

[garman]

I've tried to breed and raise my own feeder fish and unless you have 5 or more tanks or at least 60 gallons each they will take much too long to raise. It's best to feed them something other than goldfish too. These don't have all the right nutrients gars need. I'd go with freeze dried krill that are vitamin enhanced. When they get full sized, less than 2 feet I think mine will be eating beef chunks for stew from the grocery store.

Unfortunatly you will need at least a 300 gallon to allow them room to turn as adults. You might considder seeing if there are public aquariums in your area that have these gars.

My plan if I can't keep mine (I do plan to though) is to give them to my local public aquarium that has a humongous tank full of them.

[gm72]

We have discussed this before. That fish needs a larger tank than you obviously are able to provide. That's okay, but then you need to do the right thing and make sure the animal has a home that is appropriate.

I grow tired of having to repeat myself on this issue.

[garman]

As you already have this fish and I do as well (I have 3), I'd think about making a large tank for it or seriously call public aquariums and see if any will take it when it gets big. I'm going to build a 300-400 gallon tank soon. Most of the sides can be thick plywood and just the front needs to be glass if you want to cut costs. A 300-500 gallon tank is quite expensive, in the thousands of dollars if you buy it already made, unless you're lucky and get a used one.

I would make a huge tank for mine five feet wide if it were not such that I'm an apartment dweller and have to get it through a door. I'll try to make one 3 feet wide and as long as possible. I believe 3 by 3 by 9 is about 300 gallons. Eventualy I plan on having a house where I will have an even bigger tank though. You can make a mostly plywood tank and coat the inside with a special epoxy etc etc. I'll give you links if you're interested.

The best way to keep them as small as possible is to feed as little as possible. Mine are gluttons and will eat way more than they need to. I would actually feed all your large fish by hand and try to give all of them just enough to keep them from being starved. No need to be cruel, but really, they will always beg for food and that's something you'll have to get used to.

I think the best food avaliable is freeze dried krill. It's a low-density food that mine love. I used to feed Hikari carnivore sticks and this food just made them too stuffed. With the krill you can feed more without them getting as much actual food and it's very nutritious.

One last thing: These gars can die suddenly out of the blue unless you add some salt to the water. I forget the recommended amount for a fresh water aquarium, but it keeps them from getting bacterial infections which they're more and more susceptible to as they grow. Make sure it's not iodised salt. Sea salt is what I use.

Why can't you have a bigger than 180 gallon tank anyway?

[garman]

I was thinking that if you can't return this fish or have no aquarium to give it to the 180 gallon will work for a while. I would fill the tank with plants and aquarium wood as this will give the fish shelter and possibly help to make it stunt a little more than if it's in a bare tank.

It's very fun to feed them, but you should think of slowing it's growth as much as possible. I have some South American gars that get 2 feet in the wild. I've had them for 4 years, they're now in a 100 gallon tank, and they're only 7 and 8 inches long. They're not growing anymore. If you can keep them as small as possible in their early life they may only get to 18 inches long. Good Luck!

[gm72]

I will speak for a large volume of our members by saying that purposefully stunting the growth of a fish is NOT AT ALL appropriate or responsible fish keeping.

Gee, I wish my daughter would always be little like this. Think I'll raise her in the closet and only give her snacks.

:c11:

[goleafs]

He's 6 inches long, off feeders and he's getting either a 180 or a 350 around june...

[garman]

I provide my fish with a gorgous planted tank with appropriate tankmates and plenty of room so far in my 100 gallon tank. Very few people have an environment as natural and thoughtful as I do for my beloved fish, and I would never mistreat or cause my fish suffering any more than any fish would feel in captivity. I believe I do better at providing a comfortable environment than most people with fake plants, plastic dodads, etc.

The term Stunted is very provoking to many people, but the fact is that most all fish will be stunted in a confined space, and that's coyfish, goldfish, pretty much all fish in captivity.

I guess you can close your eyes and pretend you arn't stunting your fish, but if you really don't want your fish to be stunted DON"T KEEP FISH.

Apparently many folks are upset about the originator of this forum not being able or willing to keep a Florida gar in a big enough tank, and I share your emotion. I just think it's better to realise the fact that this person already has this fish, there's probably no-one who will take it and give it a better home(maybe I'm wrong), and instead of getting nasty I am trying to keep a dialogue open so I may be able to help this person provide as good a home possible for his fish.

If you lose your cool and make people stop viewing these forums you're not helping them keep their fish.

As far as STUNTING is concerned, I believe it's not good to overfeed your fish. It's not good to feed many, if not all fish, as much as they can eat. They will be happy and healthier with a limited amount of food. If you want to grow a trophy sized fish keep it in a big pond and feed it as much as it can eat, but if you want to limit it's growth (1 keep it in an aquarium, and (2 feed it less.

If you want to call it purposeful stunting or unintended stunting, it's the facts that larger fish will STUNT in an aquarium, and I would rather keep my fish smaller and happier than pompously make them grow as fast as possible.

I have a belief that having lots of hiding places yet leaving plenty of open areas is better than having a bare tank because the fish will be more comfortable. The tank may have a little less room with the foliage and wood stumps, thus possibly stunting it's growth slightly more than a bare tank would, but it will be happier with the scenery than without.

I'd like to see a pic of a tank where someone creates as nice a world as me for my larger fish. I'll post pics of my tanks soon when I get current photos up, but if you don't like stunting of fish get out of the hobby, or don't take fish that are raped out of the Amazon where so many die in transport so YOU can have one.

Goleaf. You say you might be getting a 350 gallon tank. Good deal bud! I want to show pics of mine soon as they are such cool fish. Mine even don't care when I gently grasp them during feeding. They're very tame and not skittish at all. How are you acquiring the 350 if you do? Are you making it or buying it?

[goleafs]

I will speak for a large volume of our members by saying that purposefully stunting the growth of a fish is NOT AT ALL appropriate or responsible fish keeping.

Gee, I wish my daughter would always be little like this. Think I'll raise her in the closet and only give her snacks.

:c11:

Plenty of people keep them in 40 gallon tanks.

[gm72]

...and lots of men beat women.

Just because it occurs does not make it an appropriate practice.

[William]

Yes unfortunatly they do even if the fish really isn´t suitable to be kept in aquariums of that size.

[garman]

There's a good argument not to keep any animal or fish in a cage, but I don't think there would be an aquarium forum if people really felt that way.

There's dogs and cats, but they're domesticated and have an established relationship with their keepers. Most people would never want anything but exceptional growth for their children, except for lateral growth of course!

The best we can do is to either not have fish, or provide as comfortable an environment possible for them.

[gm72]

I provide my fish with a gorgous planted tank with appropriate tankmates and plenty of room so far in my 100 gallon tank. Very few people have an environment as natural and thoughtful as I do for my beloved fish, and I would never mistreat or cause my fish suffering any more than any fish would feel in captivity. I believe I do better at providing a comfortable environment than most people with fake plants, plastic dodads, etc.
Pretty insulting statement to those fish keepers who keep their fish in tanks with artificial plants and decor.

The term Stunted is very provoking to many people, but the fact is that most all fish will be stunted in a confined space, and that's coyfish, goldfish, pretty much all fish in captivity.
Strongly disagreed.

I guess you can close your eyes and pretend you arn't stunting your fish, but if you really don't want your fish to be stunted DON"T KEEP FISH.
Again strongly disagreed.

Apparently many folks are upset about the originator of this forum not being able or willing to keep a Florida gar in a big enough tank, and I share your emotion. I just think it's better to realise the fact that this person already has this fish, there's probably no-one who will take it and give it a better home(maybe I'm wrong), and instead of getting nasty I am trying to keep a dialogue open so I may be able to help this person provide as good a home possible for his fish.
No one is getting nasty. Either accept blatant honesty or move along.

If you lose your cool and make people stop viewing these forums you're not helping them keep their fish.
Again, no one has lost their cool.

As far as STUNTING is concerned, I believe it's not good to overfeed your fish. It's not good to feed many, if not all fish, as much as they can eat. They will be happy and healthier with a limited amount of food. If you want to grow a trophy sized fish keep it in a big pond and feed it as much as it can eat, but if you want to limit it's growth (1 keep it in an aquarium, and (2 feed it less.
Absolutely agreed. Most fish will overeat if given the opportunity.
If you want to call it purposeful stunting or unintended stunting, it's the facts that larger fish will STUNT in an aquarium, and I would rather keep my fish smaller and happier than pompously make them grow as fast as possible.
Purposefully keeping a fish in a too-small sized aquarium and underfeeding the fish is inappropriate regardless of your point of view.

I have a belief that having lots of hiding places yet leaving plenty of open areas is better than having a bare tank because the fish will be more comfortable. The tank may have a little less room with the foliage and wood stumps, thus possibly stunting it's growth slightly more than a bare tank would, but it will be happier with the scenery than without.
Depending upon its native habitat, agreed or disagreed.

I'd like to see a pic of a tank where someone creates as nice a world as me for my larger fish. I'll post pics of my tanks soon when I get current photos up, but if you don't like stunting of fish get out of the hobby, or don't take fish that are raped out of the Amazon where so many die in transport so YOU can have one.
Many of our members have outstanding tanks. Some of our members do not but native-caught fish but rather would pay extra to acquire tank-bred fish. Even more of our members would not own a fish for which they could not appropriately care.

Goleaf. You say you might be getting a 350 gallon tank. Good deal bud! I want to show pics of mine soon as they are such cool fish. Mine even don't care when I gently grasp them during feeding. They're very tame and not skittish at all. How are you acquiring the 350 if you do? Are you making it or buying it?

Listen folks, exhaust your options to get the fish an appropriate sized home first then let's see what we can do to maximize its potential with what you have. Relax the attitude and accept the criticism that is bound to accompany such a situation or don't post at all.

[goleafs]

Goleaf. You say you might be getting a 350 gallon tank. Good deal bud! I want to show pics of mine soon as they are such cool fish. Mine even don't care when I gently grasp them during feeding. They're very tame and not skittish at all. How are you acquiring the 350 if you do? Are you making it or buying it?

There is one for sale used with the bottom pane missing for $300 with a stand. I just hope I can find room.

[gm72]

THERE we go! That would be fantastic! Sounds like a great deal. Is there a way you can rearrange furniture/etc.?

Remember also that size tank will weigh about 3,000 pounds fully loaded, so make sure the floor can support the weight.

[goleafs]

It is 30" wide so it would be significantly reducing the width of the hallway that I am putting the tank in, that's the problem.

[Lady Hobbs]

I very much strongly object to keeping fish like this that no way can you possibly provide for. Fish raised in fish farms for the purpose of keeping them in a tank is one thing. Buying fish, or catching fish, that in nature are supposed to be wild should be left as is. There is not a lot of gar left and in the wild he can reproduce and keep his species going.

Age and Growth - Growth is very rapid during the first year. They reach a maximum length of up to four feet.

In this forum, we advocate getting fish we can properly care for, giving them the best life they can have and never, ever put them in tanks too small for them.

I'm aggravated that you have learned nothing in this forum and now are talking to others about the keeping of this fish when you will be unable to do so yourself. This is no different than tryping to keep an Oscar in a betta bowl.

[goleafs]

They get 2 feet and even in the wild a 4 footer would be a super gar.

[Lady Hobbs]

It is 30" wide so it would be significantly reducing the width of the hallway that I am putting the tank in, that's the problem.

This fish will not be able to turn around in a 30 inch tank. How can a fish 48 inches turn around in a tank 30".

[garman]

All I can speak for is my own tank where I believe my fish are happy. The 3gars I have, which are from 8-11 inches long love to play in the powerhead outflow. They either swim against it or come around behind and get shot across the tank. they do this over and over. I have gravel on the floor of the tank they can blend right into and stalk they're prey, if I buy feeder fish for them. They seem to love the krill and that's nutritious, so I feed them that most of the time.

These are actually the tamest fish I've ever had. I had a South American spotted gar once and that was a fish I would rather had remained in the wild. It never calmed down, would often smash itself into the sides of the tank injuring it's snout if someone walked by, and it just never seemed content. Unfortunately it got a bacterial infection and died I think due to lack of any salt in the water.

The Florida gars don't get scared, they eat anything, and they're beautiful. Right now my tank is a suitable size for them at 100 gallons, and I've been doing research on building a larger tank which I intend to fill with beautiful wood, rocks, and greenery like the one I now have has. Eventually I want as big a tank possible.

I just went back to school, graduated, and I've yet to be hired into my new carreer where I'll have the $$$ to get a house. It's then that I can work on creating my dream tank of 500 gallons plus planted which I think will be best for these fish.

By the way, it's pretty common knowledge that coyfish grow bigger depending on the size of their tanks or ponds, and how much they're fed. It's the same with gars, and if limiting their food and having them in a large enough tank eventually, 300 gallons minimum, but even 700 gallons stunts them then Oh well. Fishermen like to catch them, kill them, and throw them away in Florida because F gars are considered trash fish that decimate other types of fish fishermen want to catch.

I've also bred and rased mosquito fish for many years and they never get as big in my aquariums as they will in the wild. If that's not stunting I don't know what is. I certianly have them in a big enough tank by anyones standards with a 60 gallon.

If people are insulted because I think it's better to have live plants for fish to be comfortable among and to help cycle the waste products in a tank that's just too bad. I've never had a problem with waste products ever in my tanks and I attribute much of that to having live plants. Plenty of people on other forums have months and months go by and they can't get their tanks to cycle correctly. ammonia spikes kill their fish and it gets depressing. A little java moss goes a long way to providing places for benneficial bacteria to grow, it eats up nitrates, and it gives some fish added nutrients fake plants can't provide.

[garman]

Lady Hobbs. Go on YOUTUBE and look at the Florida gars on there. They don't get 4 feet long in captivity. Unless you have a swimming pool or pond, they rarely get over 2 feet, often no more than 18 inches.

Most of the tanks on YOUTUBE with these fish are either too small or too bare or both in my opinion, just in case you think I am trying to copy them.

Of course they need a wider tank than say an arowana of the same length.

[Lady Hobbs]

I'm sure your 2 ft gars are quite happy in yur 100 gallon. It's those that get these huge fish without the proper tanks for them is what annoys me. I've seen pictures of your gars. They appeared to have plenty of room and looked happy enough.

[garman]

They are not 2 feet yet dear. They're 9 inches 10 inches and 11 inches respectivley, and they will be given more room within a year.

I would never condone an aquarium store having these because I agree, they're just not the type of fish most people will ever be prepared to care for. Even most of the ones on YOUTUE make me quite sad.

Where have you seen my pics? I do have some up on a couple other forums.

I appreciate that you think I have a good environment for them at this time.

I'm very committed to doing right by them. I even have 2 different public aquariums that will take them if somehow my future plans for them don't come about.

Yea, my goal is to have a very large more squarish tank with maybe a few large wood stumps looking like little mountains with java moss growing on the lower slopes and anubias bartari looking like a forest on the tops.

I guess it's best that you all show your emotions about this fish because you're right about what happens to most of the ones sold unfortunately. It makes me very uncomfortable too see any creature trapped in too small a space.

[goleafs]

I've got a bit of a moral problem here. If I give him back to the store they will put him in about a 15 gallon and sell him to whoever wants him ( they told me he would get 10", I knew he wouldn't but thought he would be okay in my 75 for a while, true). There really aren't any public aquariums within a decent distance from me and it looks like the biggest tank I could get would be a 150 (5x2x2). What should I do?

[garman]

Wow. I don't really want a 4th one of these, and I'd be worried if you were to try and mail it to me how it would fare in transport. I know one of these would probably do better in a oxygen enriched bag with an air space than many other fish due to their having a specialised air bladder that can be used for breathing.

Maybe you could look up the nearest few public aquariums even if they are not near you and ask if they have a Florida gar tank. You'd be surprised how many public aquariums keep these. If they have big ones they may take yours and you could send it to them express mail.

I'll look and see what their northern range is because they may live in the Great Lakes. I forget. OK they apparently have been found in a few places in Lake Erie and it's drainage. Maybe if others on this site agree you could drive it there and let it go. That would be the best option if others agree.

If you can't find anything after exhausting all your options I'll considder taking it off your hands. I'll correspond with you privately if you have no other options and maybe we can work something out. I think yours is about the size of the ones I have so it wouldn't be much more to deal with.

Please try to find a Public aquarium first even if you have to mail it to them.
Garman

[gm72]

I'll look and see what their northern range is because they may live in the Great Lakes. I forget. OK they apparently have been found in a few places in Lake Erie and it's drainage. Maybe if others on this site agree you could drive it there and let it go. That would be the best option if others agree.

Releasing fish into the wild is not supported. Even one fish depending on the ecosystem can set into a sequence of events that can bring disasterous problems to a balanced ecosystem. This includes native as well as invasive species.

[Lady Hobbs]

Goleafs, if you give them back someone with a large tank that knows about these fish will probably buy them.

garman, don't think I do not agree with gm72 because I do. I certainly do not condone the stunting of fish and intentionally keeping them hungry so they do not grow to their natural size. Right now you fish have enough room in your tank. Next year they might not. But to intentionally attempt at stunting so they will always fit your 100 gallon is what bothers gm72 and myself. We just don't believe in that stuff here on this forum and certainly don't want others thinking this to be a practice we condone.

We have pretty strong convictions here, as you can see, and the welfare of fish is our main concern.

Someone posted pictures of their gar here and I thought it was you but perhaps it was someone else so I may have been mistaken there. But please do not read into my post that because I felt the gars are fine right now that they will be later.

[gm72]

Exactly. Stunting may or may not be a function of keeping fish in an enclosed space. We will not debate that here because there is no definitive research on the subject.

PURPOSEFULLY stunting the fish is the concern. Certainly such practices are not condoned. As far as I am concerned such practice is in the same category as animal cruelty.

[garman]

Why don't you guys read what I write! I absolutely NEVER said I wanted to stunt my gars so they would always fit in my 100 gallon tank.

Why must I repeat myself over and over?

I've raised fish for a long time, I will always have a big enough tank (bigger) than is suggested for these fish, and if by some chance I DON'T, I have 2 public aquariums that will take and add them to their F gar tanks.

Please read everything I write.

[garman]

I absolutely invite you to look at the pics I have of them in my 100 TEMPORARY tank. Sorry I don't know how to make an easy link, but go to "rate my fishtank" forums and look under PeterKarig for my pics. I'm proud of the hard work I've done so far to provide them with a good home.

[Lady Hobbs]

Sorry dear. Let's not get excited. As I said above, I'm sure your fish are very fine in your tank and you take well care of them.

A bit of misunderstanding on both sides, I suspect. Let's move on and off this subject for now, OK?

[Lady Hobbs]

Garman's spotted gars


LOL How's this?

Thought maybe someone would like to see them without going thru that search.

[garman]

Cool. I'll take some new ones as the tank actually looks a lot better now. My GF's here so I'll try to borrow her camera.

[Lady Hobbs]

Cool. Can't wait to see them. You can get those photos from where you've stored them by R. clicking on the photo and then "save picture" to a folder.

If you want me to retrieve the rest of them there, let me know.

[gm72]

Garman, just to clarify, you stated the following (bold added for emphasis):

"It's very fun to feed them, but you should think of slowing it's growth as much as possible. I have some South American gars that get 2 feet in the wild. I've had them for 4 years, they're now in a 100 gallon tank, and they're only 7 and 8 inches long. They're not growing anymore. If you can keep them as small as possible in their early life they may only get to 18 inches long. Good Luck!

Stunting. Period.

End of it. No further comments will be accepted. Everyone moving on now.

[goleafs]

Is a 150 gallon really too small for 3-7 years though? I'm pretty sure he would be able to get to 2 feet and from what I have read it's pretty impossible for them to grow any bigger in anything smaller than a public aquarium. Heres a pic of him in the tank right now....

[gm72]

I believe most large fish grow quite rapidly when they are young, but I'm not sure about how quickly specifically the spotted gar grow, good question. I'm interested to hear the response(s).

[goleafs]

The thing right now that's limiting me is that I live with my parents. I'll probably be able to start paying for my own place somewhere near the end of my apprenticeship, gotta finish high school first though...

[Lady Hobbs]

I am closing this thread. This conversation has gone no where and has ended up in bickering. If this is the only way to move on, then so be it but it's over.

Thank You.