For Culturing Questions

[Dave66]

Please reply here if you have questions about my culturing installments.

Thank you,
Dave

[Incredulous_Ed]

Where do you get sterile water? And what do you feed phtoplankton to? Sorry im just c onfused.

[travie]

I think Dave mentioned boiling the water to make it sterile. "Sterilize the culture water by boiling it in a clean pot, then pour it into the container." Quoted from Part 1.

[AquaBANG]

for algal culture, why do we need the sponge filter? Is it to maintain the guppies that we have?

[Dave66]

for algal culture, why do we need the sponge filter? Is it to maintain the guppies that we have?

Exactly, sudhirbits. Also, the little critters that proliferate around mature sponge filters are great guppy fry food sources and a hiding place from hungry parents.

Dave

[MelonMan]

Hey dave do u remeber my uncles SA tank. Well its basically finished, ill be sure to get photos of it in straight away. I don't know the exact stocking list but he has 100 or so rummy noses about 30-40 cardinals 30-40 corydoras julii and 20 panda cories, 30-40 marbled hatchets and heaps of plants and it looks really cool ill be sure to send photos.

[Incredulous_Ed]

Is it possible to start an infusoria culture without a paramecium culture?

[Tolley]

Hey dave do u remeber my uncles SA tank. Well its basically finished, ill be sure to get photos of it in straight away. I don't know the exact stocking list but he has 100 or so rummy noses about 30-40 cardinals 30-40 corydoras julii and 20 panda cories, 30-40 marbled hatchets and heaps of plants and it looks really cool ill be sure to send photos.


100 Rummynoses!?!?!!? I need pics too!!!!!


and Dave can you use normal aqaurium salt for hatching brine shrimp?

[Incredulous_Ed]

I sued table salt and it worked fine.

[doug z]

Green algae question:

Do you need guppies? Can you avoid the sponge filter, air pump, feeding the guppies, etc and just add ammonia?

[Dave66]

100 Rummynoses!?!?!!? I need pics too!!!!!


and Dave can you use normal aqaurium salt for hatching brine shrimp?

No, Tolley, you can't. Brine shrimp are marine animals; hypersaline, actually. Normal marine water is about 35 ppt salts and minerals. The water Brine Shrimp live in is 40 to 45 ppt, which is far saltier.
You just have to buy marine salt designed for reef tanks if you want to hatch your shrimp and raise them to adulthood.
Next week or sooner if I can get to it I'll do a culture thing on successfully growing your own Brine Shrimp to feed to your fish. More involved than you'd think.

Dave

[Dave66]

Green algae question:

Do you need guppies? Can you avoid the sponge filter, air pump, feeding the guppies, etc and just add ammonia?

I prefer guppies as household ammonia is inorganic. Guppy ammonia is the real thing :). Plus, they are cute lol
They are also handy if your culture is outside; they keep your culture from being a mosquito breeding ground, and prosper at the job. Also, guppies do great outdoors, as long as the cats or raccoons can't get to them.
Mine are red and black deltas.

Dave

[Dave66]

Hey dave do u remeber my uncles SA tank. Well its basically finished, ill be sure to get photos of it in straight away. I don't know the exact stocking list but he has 100 or so rummy noses about 30-40 cardinals 30-40 corydoras julii and 20 panda cories, 30-40 marbled hatchets and heaps of plants and it looks really cool ill be sure to send photos.

Patrick,
I do, and I look forward to your uncle's progress :)

Dave

[doug z]

Hmm.. Good points..

But aren't mosquito larvae also good eating?

[Halelorf]

Hmm.. Good points..

But aren't mosquito larvae also good eating?

I put out big plastic buckets in the summer to get mosquito larvae for my goldfish and community tank. They make GREAT eating thumbs2:

[Dave66]

Hmm.. Good points..

But aren't mosquito larvae also good eating?

Yep, they are, but I wouldn't feed them to things like say, neon tetras as the larvae can eat there way out. Guppys just rip the larvae apart and suck the pieces down. Gnat larvae (white, about a third the size) are better for the little guys. I culture them in planted water butts on my deck. Not difficult. The gnats don't mind the little aireation, and the skeeters won't lay eggs in the slightly moving water. I just give them water, plants and a little air flow and the gnats do the rest.

Dave

[doug z]

as the larvae can eat there way out

???!!!

Ok, I'm getting turned off this whole live food thing.. :((

GROSS!!!!

[Tolley]

thanks for answering so quickly dave. I noticed u said for raising to adults. Would aquarium salt be fine for jus for hatching them out so i can feed my fry? Ed and Nick said that it worked for them

Sorry for all the questions

[Dave66]

thanks for answering so quickly dave. I noticed u said for raising to adults. Would aquarium salt be fine for jus for hatching them out so i can feed my fry? Ed and Nick said that it worked for them

Sorry for all the questions

Tolley,
Don't mind the questions, its why I put the culture threads here in the first place. I've always used marine water, as I was suspect of the iodine in table salt.
Larger fry, like Cichlids, can take baby brine shrimp as soon as they are free swimming. Fry like barbs, tetras and Betta can't, and for some it'll be weeks before they are large enough to take BBS.
Raising them to adulthood and keeping the shrimps' nutrient levels high is a bit of a trick, but its helpful to have them to get new little reef fishes to eat and to condition freshwater breeders.

Dave

[Tolley]

ok so should i wait it out before i feed it to the fry?

[Dave66]

???!!!

Ok, I'm getting turned off this whole live food thing.. :((

GROSS!!!!

LoL Doug, when I did the poll about whether to do a culture thing or not you didn't click No, its ookie lol. I know some of it is a little gross, but believe me you get used to it in a hurry. And none of culturing is in any stretch rocket science. All you need is a place for it, a starter, and a bit of ingenuity.

Dave

[doug z]

Well, that's before I heard these #@! larvae can go all "Alien" on your fish!!! LOL

*shudder*

Just level with me..

Are daphnia and mysis worm larvae?

If not, I could handle that.. And the algae cultures, of course....

[Dave66]

ok so should i wait it out before i feed it to the fry?

Tolley,
When the Cherry Barbs start ignoring the Infusoria you can try BBS, but you'll have to judge whether the little fish are taking them. They are probably a bit too big for the fry. I use Rotifers as the second stage between Paramecium-like things and BBS. Rotifers are almost exactly half the size of BBS.

Dave

[Dave66]

Well, that's before I heard these #@! larvae can go all "Alien" on your fish!!! LOL

*shudder*

Just level with me..

Are daphnia and mysis worm larvae?

If not, I could handle that.. And the algae cultures, of course....

Nope, they aren't larvae. Daphnia are little crustaceans who move like and are the size of fleas, and Mysids are proper shrimp, which eat things like Daphnia. Daphnia pulex are the little guys, Daphnia magna is about three times larger. I feed the Magna to my Apistos occasionally.

Dave

[doug z]

Ok, Phew.. I think that'll be the extent of my live culture involvement.. :))

!! Getting queasy again.. :ssleepy:

[Dave66]

Ok, Phew.. I think that'll be the extent of my live culture involvement.. :))

!! Getting queasy again.. :ssleepy:

Stiff-upper lip, Doug. Be a man for goodness sakes lol. Grow a backbone lmao :19:

Dave

[NickFish]

Both very good articles Dave!

As the worms sink (they can't swim) microworms are a perfect food for Corydoras fry.
As soon as I read that, BINGO! I need to get some microworms started!

Two question about the microworms though,
I have heard that the oatmeal must be cooked for 5 or so minutes before being used to culture the worms. Is this absolutely nessesary in your experience?

Also, how long do the microworms last in their culture?
Before putting them in the tank, when they are still in your culturing container, how long can they survive?

Great work Dave!

[doug z]

Be a man for goodness sakes lol.

Well, I never! *urp*..

LOL

[Levi]

sorry for replying in the other thread

[doug z]

I asked Lady Hobbs to remove both those posts..

[Dave66]

Both very good articles Dave!


As soon as I read that, BINGO! I need to get some microworms started!

Two question about the microworms though,
I have heard that the oatmeal must be cooked for 5 or so minutes before being used to culture the worms. Is this absolutely nessesary in your experience?

Also, how long do the microworms last in their culture?
Before putting them in the tank, when they are still in your culturing container, how long can they survive?

Great work Dave!

Nick,
The worms will last as long as they have food to eat and their container kept clean. They are live bearers, so one can become many in a hurry. You'll be astonished to see the hundreds of thousands if not millions of them in a culture.
You can cook the oats if you want. I don't, because its too goopy and too easy to splatter on the walls of the container. Doesn't matter if you use raw or instant oats, though.
You can keep a microworm culture going for months easy, long as you toss them some oats and yeast from time to time and keep their container clean.

Dave

[Dave66]

Is it possible to start an infusoria culture without a paramecium culture?

It is, Ed. You'd need dried duckweed on the bottom, fill up with water an inch from the top, and put the culture near an open window. Dormant spores of micro-organisms land in the water, activate, and start setting up housekeeping. You cover the culture about two or three days after exposure to the winds.
Downside is it takes a lot longer to get a good culture, a month or more easy. And you don't know what kinds of critters are in your culture unless you have a microscope and know what you are looking at. If you can find one, Ampullaria species snails added when you set up the culture will accelerate development of the culture. So much so, for years gone by they were collectively called Infusoria snails.
Reason I use Paramecium is I know what's in there, every tiny egg-laying fry fish eats them, and most of not all commercial aquarium fish producers use Paramecium for all the popular little egg-laying schoolers. Every Zebra Danio you see in stores started life eating Paramecium.

Dave

[Dave66]

Just a bump.

Dave

[shockshockshad]

On your white worms culture, I don't really get how to put the glass in. Is it something like this?
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Dave66]

Exactly, shad, you've got it. Make sure to get plate glass, and the edges rounded, which they should do anyway as a matter of course. You just put the glass right on the soil. The worms will gather under the glass eating the grains you put on the bottom of it, keeping them near the top of the culture which is where you want them. The glass also helps keep the soil moist under it.


Dave

[Sasquatch]

Sorta to get back to Doug Zs question ...

I'd like to culture green algae on rock in a 5g, but well, putting it outside really isn't an option (the whole 12' of snow thing this winter ... ) and the only places with direct sunlight have heaters right next to them (on of the marvels of the Canadian housing industry, heating elements directly below windows).

Sticking a fish in an aquarium in full sunlight next to a heater ... not a good idea I think.

So is it doable with straight ammonia? What levels should I aim for? I've got plenty of rounded rocks and I'm looking to diversify the diet for my amanos and oto.

Thanks.

[Dave66]

Sorta to get back to Doug Zs question ...

I'd like to culture green algae on rock in a 5g, but well, putting it outside really isn't an option (the whole 12' of snow thing this winter ... ) and the only places with direct sunlight have heaters right next to them (on of the marvels of the Canadian housing industry, heating elements directly below windows).

Sticking a fish in an aquarium in full sunlight next to a heater ... not a good idea I think.

So is it doable with straight ammonia? What levels should I aim for? I've got plenty of rounded rocks and I'm looking to diversify the diet for my amanos and oto.

Thanks.

Sas,
Are you in an apartment or a house? Apartment would be a hassle, but a house; there's got to be a window without a heater under it. When it warms up you can do the guppy kiddy pool thing outside.
Guppys have that great 60 to 90 degree temp range.
I'd have no idea how much ammonia you'd need, as all you'd be doing would be feeding the bacteria, not the algae. I've always used guppies, but if you use those phosphate plant nutrient liquids your tank would green up fairly quickly if you put a goldfish in there for the nitrate source. Nitrate plus Phosphate = algae every time. You'd have to tweak the levels of phosphate until the water stays pretty clear and the algae is just on the stones and glass. You'd need the phosphate and nitrate to get enough algae in a little container like that. Its a lot easier in larger things like kiddy pools outside with a mess of guppies in them.

Dave

[doug z]

What kind of diameter kiddie pool are we talking here, and what would constitute a "mess" of guppies? :)

What do you do with the guppies after the 3 months of spring and summer that we get up here?? :)

[Sasquatch]

Sas,
Are you in an apartment or a house? Apartment would be a hassle, but a house; there's got to be a window without a heater under it. When it warms up you can do the guppy kiddy pool thing outside.
Guppys have that great 60 to 90 degree temp range.
I'd have no idea how much ammonia you'd need, as all you'd be doing would be feeding the bacteria, not the algae. I've always used guppies, but if you use those phosphate plant nutrient liquids your tank would green up fairly quickly if you put a goldfish in there for the nitrate source. Nitrate plus Phosphate = algae every time. You'd have to tweak the levels of phosphate until the water stays pretty clear and the algae is just on the stones and glass. You'd need the phosphate and nitrate to get enough algae in a little container like that. Its a lot easier in larger things like kiddy pools outside with a mess of guppies in them.

Dave


Actually, I am in an appartment. There is the rear window that doesn't have an element next to it, but it doesn't get a whole lot of sunlight (maybe 3-4 hours direct light this time of year).

My concern with using live fish was the temperature fluctuation with a given day. I think it would be workable on top of the dryer next to the rear window, but I'd still expect several °C temperature variation within a single day. Guppies are hardy, but can they handle that level of temperature variation?

There also the concern with the landlord ... we had to do a little arm twisting to get our second 5g tank ... another 5g she might not like much. But a tank with a few inches of water and some rocks in the bottom might not be as much of a problem.

Would dosing with an NPK fertilizer work? (I thought the ammonia was for the algae ... forgot about the whole cycling thing that happens in fish tanks. :rolleyes: ) I can pick up a bottle of that at the LFS no problem.

Thanks Dave, you're great, as always.

[Dave66]

What kind of diameter kiddie pool are we talking here, and what would constitute a "mess" of guppies? :)

What do you do with the guppies after the 3 months of spring and summer that we get up here?? :)

Doug,
A mess = couple dozen. And the pools are about six feet in diameter. I move the cultures into my sunroom in the fall, guppies and all. Of course, here in the SE US summer starts in May and ends in September, light and heat wise. Its usually the middle of November when I move them.

Dave

[doug z]

Ok, thanks, Dave...

How high do you fill the pool?

And how do you move it when it's full?

I suspect I'd have to shut the operation down, in the fall, as I'd have nowhere to store the pool..

Guppies would have to go in a tank..

MAN, haven't even got one set up, and I need 3 now.. One community, one hospital, one guppy! LOL

Could I put the guppy tank in direct sunlight inside and get the same effect?

[Fishguy2727]

Anyone looked through or have the new book on Culturing Live Foods (TFH I believe)? How is it?

I am going to start hatching some brine shrimp eggs, but the directions on the package (OSI brand, all we carry at my work) are quite different than yours Dave. They have the specific gravity down at 1.015 or so and the temp way up at 85-90F. I will be using marine salt, but they say to use rock salt. Their directions are for feeding the newly hatched brine shrimp the next day, not a permanent culture.

Most cultures seem to use air, are air stones a must or can a submerged pump work just as well? I am guessing the air stones are better or needed to keep oxygen levels up.

[Dave66]

Anyone looked through or have the new book on Culturing Live Foods (TFH I believe)? How is it?

I am going to start hatching some brine shrimp eggs, but the directions on the package (OSI brand, all we carry at my work) are quite different than yours Dave. They have the specific gravity down at 1.015 or so and the temp way up at 85-90F. I will be using marine salt, but they say to use rock salt. Their directions are for feeding the newly hatched brine shrimp the next day, not a permanent culture.

Most cultures seem to use air, are air stones a must or can a submerged pump work just as well? I am guessing the air stones are better or needed to keep oxygen levels up.

Fishguy,
You are quite correct about the air stones, but they must bubble quite slowly as the shrimp cannot swim strongly enough to avoid the air flow and would be buffeted to their ruin. The air stones are there to keep the water fresh by gas exchange. You're also correct about using marine salt, as it dissolves far better than 'rock' salt.
My methods are based on my decades of culturing, thus I posted what works for me. I get a much better hatch rate at hypersalinity, and I should mention that the decapsulated eggs I use are somewhat more viable - up to 90 percent hatch rate - than the brand your store carries. I also enrich the shrimp 24 to 36 hours before feeding, as past the first instar the nutrition value of brine shrimp drops like a stone. I use freshwater Phytoplankton as the staple food.
I culture many millions of Artemia, as they are the staple food for the marine mysis shrimp I culture. The shrimp get a super selco bath about 6 hours before they go in.
Also, the eggs hatch perfectly well in normal marine water. Occasionally I sprinkle eggs on the water in my reef tanks for food 'on the hoof'.
I got a review copy in the mail last week of Mike's book, but I haven't taken a look at it yet.

Dave

[Fishguy2727]

Ammonia was quickly discussed/mentioned earlier. It was stated that the bottled forms are inorganic but the ammonia from fish is different and favored. What exactly is the chemical formula for each?

It was also stated that algae need nitrate, not ammonia. Are algae not capable of using ammonia as a nitrogen source the way plants are?

[Dave66]

Ammonia was quickly discussed/mentioned earlier. It was stated that the bottled forms are inorganic but the ammonia from fish is different and favored. What exactly is the chemical formula for each?

It was also stated that algae need nitrate, not ammonia. Are algae not capable of using ammonia as a nitrogen source the way plants are?

Fishguy,
I'm sure you know how commercial ammonia is produced, and thus is thoroughly synthetic. The ammonia produced by us and the fish is due to biological processes, thus is 'live' shall we say. It's tantamount to the difference between eating a hamburger made of beef and one made of synthetic nutritional base - you could eat both, but you could easily metabolize only one of them.
The end product is the same chemical formulae - NH3. The difference is one is produced by live organisms, one is not.
Despite their primitive standing, algae are indeed plants, and thus have the same nutritional needs as the vascular plants do. The vascular plants are just much better at obtaining them. Vascular plants can't metabolize ammonia either, though they can break the nuclear bond of Nitrate. Lots of organic compounds yes, ammonia, regardless whether it's organic or inorganic, no.

Dave

[Fishguy2727]

But if it is ammonia then it is ammonia. Unless there is some sort of chemical ID tag on the molecule that I (and as far as I am aware the scientific community as well) am not aware of, the algae and plants have no way of knowing the different origins. No matter where it is or where it came from, NH3 is NH3. And if they can use NH3 then they can use NH3. I will have to go back and double check some things, but I am pretty sure plants can use ammonia as a nitrogen source. If not, fine. But ammonia is ammonia. A synthetic source does not affect it if the formula is still NH3.

And algae are not plants. I have gone over this repeatedly in the past few years in numerous biology classes in college. Algae, from blue green algae all the way up through kelp, are not plants. That's right, even kelp is not a plant but a colonial algae. Some algae are bacteria (and some people will say these are not actually algae, just photosynthetic bacteria), and some are protists (like kelp). I know in the past that all green algae were classified as plants, but that is no longer the case. The simplest plants are the mosses, ferns, things of that nature. The current accepted scientific classification of algae are not in plants, but mainly in the protist kingdom, and in the bacteria kingdoms.

[Sharkman]

Dave,

where can I find the articles on the culturing? I did a search of the forum but couldn't find it. I'd like to tinker with this sort of thing in the future. I'd defnitely be interested in brine shrimp.

[Fishguy2727]

I found them by doing an advanced search with his username looking for all threads started by him.

[mrs fishpatrick]

Is there anything I could add to my whiteworm culture, apart from the oats, yeast and water, to make them better for my fry to eat?

And does it have to be brewers yeast or could I substitute with bread yeast

[Dave66]

Is there anything I could add to my whiteworm culture, apart from the oats, yeast and water, to make them better for my fry to eat?

And does it have to be brewers yeast or could I substitute with bread yeast

Mrs. fishpatrick,
It's much better to use brewer's yeast since it doesn't have the synthetic binders bread yeast does.

You could try adding a bit of a commercial HUFA powder into the recipe, but microworms are pretty picky about what they will and will not eat. As long as you use whole oats the worms are pretty nutritious as is. I've raised thousands of fish starting with the method I posted. Just so's you know, microworms have 48 percent protein, 21 percent lipids, 7 percent glycogen, 1 percent organic acids, and 1 percent nucleic acids, with about 65 percent of the fat being highly unsaturated fatty acids, meaning they beat the heck out of un-enhanced brine shrimp, nutrition-wise.

Dave

[Algenco]

I prefer microworms over anything for small frythumbs2:

[blacksnow]

Black Worm Culture Question:

I would like to do this, but need quite a large amount.

I have a 10 gallon I am about to take down, and I'm thinking this would be sufficient if I can double my colony as you stated.

If it needs to be airtight and I have a piece of glass made for the top how do I get the airline in for the stone =O

[blacksnow]

Sorry:

Would this be possible on a large scale if I used a large rubbermaid storage container? I could drill a hole in the lid for the airline.

[Dave66]

Sorry:

Would this be possible on a large scale if I used a large rubbermaid storage container? I could drill a hole in the lid for the airline.

Yep, you could use a Rubbermaid container, but wash it with warm soap and water first to remove mold release agents on the plastic. Just rinse it until their no soap smell at all.

Dave

[blacksnow]

Yep, you could use a Rubbermaid container, but wash it with warm soap and water first to remove mold release agents on the plastic. Just rinse it until their no soap smell at all.

Dave

I plan on using one that isn't very tall. Like the ones made to fit under beds and such.

I'm guessing since there is only 3" - 4" of water I could use a small air pump, but also assuming I'll need 2 airstones?

The container will be about 20" wide x 40" long.

What are your thoughts on the air pump/air stone needs?

[Dave66]

You'd probably want to use an air disc rather than a traditional air stone, since a disc would sit flat. If you've two it'd give the gentle water movement and gas exchange the worms need.

I use Tetra Luft G air pumps which are very powerful and easily controlled.

I know the Rubbermaid containers you're talking about, since I use them myself.

Dave

[blacksnow]

You'd probably want to use an air disc rather than a traditional air stone, since a disc would sit flat. If you've two it'd give the gentle water movement and gas exchange the worms need.

I use Tetra Luft G air pumps which are very powerful and easily controlled.

I know the Rubbermaid containers you're talking about, since I use them myself.

Dave


I have a large 4" or 5" air disc like you are talking about. Bought it and never made use of it. I'm thinking I'll grab another from petsmart tomorrow, and pickup an air pump with dual outputs.

Tap water is no good for this process? If it can't be used I'll pickup a supply of spring water as well.

Then the trial begins =]

[Dave66]

Spring water is very much the best to use, snow. Tap has dissolved stuff that'll send your culture to it's ruin.

Dave

[blacksnow]

How do you go about changing your paper every month and water?

Simply drain water? Scoop worms to one side and replace paper?

[blacksnow]

Also..what are the temperature requirements? Could I run this operation in my garage?

[Dave66]

How do you go about changing your paper every month and water?

Simply drain water? Scoop worms to one side and replace paper?

Snow,
I very gently remove the worms by hand to another container with spring water of the same character and temperature, then remove the water and paper, replace the paper, and move the worms and the water back in. Top off.

As to temperature, the worms seem to do best in the low 70's. My basement is 70 degrees, and they proliferate like mad. I have to harvest a couple times a week to keep the cultures going/

Dave