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MelonMan
02-02-2008, 02:31 AM
do goldfish enjoy the company of other goldfish or can i keep just one goldfish in a tank by itself?

Kaga's Kritters
02-02-2008, 02:41 AM
goldfish are social animals and need to have companions...just make sure to not overstock the tank.

shalafi04
02-02-2008, 03:10 AM
my goldfish gets along with everyone. from the pleco to the tetra, to the other goldfish. they love friends

Rue
02-02-2008, 03:49 AM
Shouldn't have goldfish in with tropicals though...

...goldfish should really only go with other goldfish, although I do have cold-water loaches (Dojo/Weather locach) in with mine...but both species are from the same biotope originally...so it works...

White Cloud Mountain Minnows would also work...until the goldfish got large enough to eat them...

jbeining75
02-02-2008, 04:14 AM
Keep goldfish with others of like size, I'd keep tetras in a different tank though....

shalafi04
02-02-2008, 04:18 AM
thats interesting. i have never had any problems between my school of tetra, rasbora and my two enormous goldfish

Rue
02-02-2008, 04:32 AM
Then you've been lucky.

The main issue is the water temp. Goldies are cold water. Tropicals are warm water.

While they can overlap...it's not ideal to keep goldfish warm or tropicals cool...so at the temp. that both can exist, neither is happy.

MelonMan
02-02-2008, 06:29 AM
i wasn't asking whether they could go into a tank with tropicals, i meant could a fantail goldfish be in a 10 gal tank by itself with no other fish of the same species or any other species and still be happy?

cocoa_pleco
02-02-2008, 06:44 AM
10g is really the very bare minimum for a single goldfish, usually its 20g for the first goldfish and 10g thereafter, but in a 10g if you have heavy filtration and 50% weekly WC its possible.

Fishguy2727
02-02-2008, 01:47 PM
I am not sure whether there is any harm to a goldfish being in warmer water than they have been kept in historically. The issue that needs to be kept in mind is the rise in metabolic rate. This results in: 1-higher need for oxygen (they should have an air pump on the tank anyways), 2-more filtration (they need a lot anyways), and 3-more water changes (they definitely need a lot of that too). The water change schedule minimum is based on nitrate concentration, which needs to be no more than 20ppm. So although it is not really recommended, if they are already together and there are no issues then I would not worry about it.

As far as minimum tank size goes, the best guide I have seen is a minimum of a 20 gallon for one, and an additional 10 gallons for every additional goldfish. The other part is that they are schooling. So they are ideally in groups of at least 6. This puts a minimum sized school in a 65-75.

Rue
02-02-2008, 01:56 PM
i wasn't asking whether they could go into a tank with tropicals, i meant could a fantail goldfish be in a 10 gal tank by itself with no other fish of the same species or any other species and still be happy?

...no...

The others have posted the reasons...

Rue
02-02-2008, 02:02 PM
I am not sure whether there is any harm to a goldfish being in warmer water than they have been kept in historically. The issue that needs to be kept in mind is the rise in metabolic rate. This results in: 1-higher need for oxygen (they should have an air pump on the tank anyways), 2-more filtration (they need a lot anyways), and 3-more water changes (they definitely need a lot of that too). The water change schedule minimum is based on nitrate concentration, which needs to be no more than 20ppm. So although it is not really recommended, if they are already together and there are no issues then I would not worry about it.

As far as minimum tank size goes, the best guide I have seen is a minimum of a 20 gallon for one, and an additional 10 gallons for every additional goldfish. The other part is that they are schooling. So they are ideally in groups of at least 6. This puts a minimum sized school in a 65-75.

Harm? How do you measure harm? We're back to what they can live in as opposed to what they should live in. With goldfish we're talking about an organism that has the potential to live 40 years. Most people are amazed when their fish reach the age of 2-5. Very few have fish that live to 10.

I keep using the same example.

A man can live in an elevator, or in a cell on death row, for a very long time.

But do you think that's an ideal environment?

I have to go watch my son play basketball...we can talk more later...:c7:

Fishguy2727
02-03-2008, 02:39 AM
Trust me, I count anything that brings the quality of life down from ideal as harm. I have not seen anything that tells me there is harm when they are properly cared for and the temperature happens to be warmer than they are classically kept in. Some of the best good old-fashioned orange goldfish I have seen were in an outdoor pond in Florida just outside of the Everglades. Obviously with an outdoor pond there are other factors, but it shows that the temperature will not necessarily do any harm.

MelonMan
02-03-2008, 09:38 AM
What Are You People Talking About Where Did You Get The Idea About Goldfish Living In A Tropical Tank!! I Asked If They Could Live By Themsleves And Be Happy. You Have Totally Strayed Away From The Question!

MelonMan
02-03-2008, 09:40 AM
The First Two Answers Make Sense And Answer My Question But Then You Just Start Arguing About Nothing

Rue
02-03-2008, 02:00 PM
...no...

The others have posted the reasons...

Quoting myself again.:thumb:

And to clarify:

No! Goldfish are a schooling fish that need a great deal of water.

They can not live in a 10 gallon tank by themselves and be happy.

No! No! And for good measure: No!

I hope this response is what you were looking for.

Rue
02-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Trust me, I count anything that brings the quality of life down from ideal as harm. I have not seen anything that tells me there is harm when they are properly cared for and the temperature happens to be warmer than they are classically kept in. Some of the best good old-fashioned orange goldfish I have seen were in an outdoor pond in Florida just outside of the Everglades. Obviously with an outdoor pond there are other factors, but it shows that the temperature will not necessarily do any harm.

...and just because I apparently like arguing about nothing :ezpi_wink1:

A pond and an aquarium are very different. I don't know that you can really equate the two.

Fishguy2727
02-03-2008, 03:49 PM
I specified that. My point is that a pond right outside the eveglades will reach if not exceed normal tropical tank temps. If they can thrive in there then obviously temp is not necessarily an issue.

I think this is one of those things where if there are other problems (low water quality, poor aeration, etc.), temp may amplify them. But if all is well there is not an issue.

Just because someone asks about one specific question does not necessarily mean that the entire thread should have nothing mentioned except that question. Some of the most important issues that are discussed are secondary to other things. Many people overlook things that are noted in the discussion of something else. Does that mean we should not address it? We try and held as best we can. That may mean discussing other potential problems along with the original concern.

And to address the original issue: 1- a 10 is not big enough for a goldfish, and 2-they need company.

Ty
02-03-2008, 04:11 PM
just to sum it up, big tank, give them friends.

Rue
02-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Ty said it very well!

In an outdoor pond, you get microenvironments. Generally there will be shaded areas, deeper areas and the goldfish will move to where they're most comfortable. Plus, the higher rate, evaporation due to wind, cloud cover, etc, will also change over the course of day affecting localized pockets of water.

Which is what you were referring to.

BUT...what we don't know is the average life-span of a hot-climate pond goldfish vs. a cold-climate pond goldfish. Unless we have that info., we can't generalize.

Fishguy2727
02-03-2008, 05:26 PM
Lifespan is a good factor indetermining quality of life, but not the only. Just because someone's oscar lived in a 40 for 15 years doesn't mean it was any good for them. For the most part lifespan is a good way to determine it, but not the only thing. Just like the fastest growth isn't necessarily the best growth.

Another issue is hibernation. Animals that hibernate tend to live longer when they hibernate as opposed to when they do not. This doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have an even better life because they didn't hibernate, but there are other things to determine.

I just don't see any evidence that a well-maintained tank or pond is any better or worse because it is warmer.

Rue
02-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Of course there are a myriad of others factors that come into play...very difficult to account for all variables...

I just don't see any evidence that a well-maintained tank or pond is any better or worse because it is warmer.

Yes, you can say that...but by the same token, you can also say there's no evidence to suggest temperature isn't a factor in overall well being...

Unless someone does experiments, all we have is conjecture. And based on my knowledge base, I do think temperature plays an important role.

Fishguy2727
02-03-2008, 09:39 PM
I just found a study in a scientific journal (Aquaculture Nutrition) partially about the effects of temperature on color development. It found that the best temperatires for pigment development were 78-86F. The other part of the study found that the best carotenoid concentration was with astaxanthin diets. Obviously pigment does not equal health, but I thought I would post this as it is somewhat related.

Rue
02-03-2008, 10:51 PM
For what it's worth, carotenoid levels in developing ducks can be an indicator of health...

...but that's a total aside...:hmm3grin2orange:

relsoft
04-02-2008, 02:49 AM
Trust me, I count anything that brings the quality of life down from ideal as harm. I have not seen anything that tells me there is harm when they are properly cared for and the temperature happens to be warmer than they are classically kept in. Some of the best good old-fashioned orange goldfish I have seen were in an outdoor pond in Florida just outside of the Everglades. Obviously with an outdoor pond there are other factors, but it shows that the temperature will not necessarily do any harm.

I'd vouch for this. I live in the topics (Philippines) and I've kept goldfish (when I was a breeder) for 7 years in an outdoor pond with no filtration and no aeration.
You only need to change water(20%) every week and put in lots of live plants(a tricky thing to do since Goldies tend to be voracious plant eaters).

Oh yeah, I'm getting back into Goldie breeding(just starting out again) with the same formula. Outdoor pond, no filtration and no aerators.