Help! Help! Help!

[SpyderSpy6]

I currently have a 75 gallon live plant tank....

Problem:
The PH has gone from 6.2 -->6.0 -->5.8-->5.6 in about a day and a half. I'm going to do a major water change today and add some higher ph water to help stabilize the ph. I have had the tank setup for about 8 months now and have not seen this before. I do not have any carbon in my filter which I've heard can allow this to happen. Has anyone here had this situation???? And what were the steps to level it out???? PLEASE HELP!!

THANKS!!!
:c7:

[gm72]

Very strange, have there been any changes to the tank recently?

[Lady Hobbs]

Have you added new wood or peat?

[SpyderSpy6]

I have not added any additional wood pieces or peat, I have almost everything set automatic... heat, CO2, lights, ph regulator etc. I would say a day or so ago the pH was at 6.2 and today was at a 5.6. The only situation I can think of is that I had a hell week of work and was only able to change the water once, vs. 3-4 times. There have been times where I've slacked on my cleaning more than I should, but the pH never drops like it did this week. I never let it get more than a week between changes (only when I get busy) and I watch the ph everyday and test regularly, so I wasn't sure why it changed so drastically.
....

I've done a 20% water change and didn't put any discus buffer in to help raise the pH and it is currently at 6.0. I like to maintain about a 6.2 so I'm going to do another change later this afternoon. Let the fish accommodate and then raise it a little more. I need help to understand why this happened and what steps I can do to prevent it from changing so quickly. Thanks for your responses everyone!

**One more thing that may have something to do with it... yesterday I did a major bush wack on my plants and cut everything down to about 7 inches. I don't think this would make it change but maybe.

Take Care!!
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[gm72]

Red flag that I see here is when you mention use of a "pH regulator." Can you tell us more about this?

[SpyderSpy6]

It's the Milwaukee controller & solenoid. All it does is release CO2 into the water when the pH raises above 6.2. Other than that it just gives me a read on what the actual pH is.

Thank you for your help!

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[gm72]

Ah, okay, I was wondering if it was some chemical that you were adding. I'm stumped though, no idea what is going on unless the regulator is allowing more CO2 into the tank?

[Dave66]

It's the Milwaukee controller & solenoid. All it does is release CO2 into the water when the pH raises above 6.2. Other than that it just gives me a read on what the actual pH is.

Thank you for your help!

thumbs2:

Spy,
Did you remove all the clippings? Your sinking pH indicates vegetative decay with no buffers in the water. What are your general and carbonate hardness levels? The carbonate (kH) buffers the water resist pH change. If your kH is low or non existent, your pH will swing all over the place, which is what you are experiencing.
I take it you keep Discus? PH 6.2 isn't necessary. A stable 6.8, gH 4 or 5 ppm, kH 5 or 6, 82 to 84 degrees and the Discus will do great.
I use automated pressurized Co2 with pH controller on all my planted aquariums. I also use air pump with air stone at night to drive off the Co2 the plants expel and that remaining from the day. Keeps the 02 levels and pH steady.
What size is your aquarium?

Dave

[SpyderSpy6]

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this.... here is the situation...

When I did a large water change and plant trimmings, I did my best to get every floating piece of plant out of the water. One thing that has been happening is a grayish build up on the leaves and roots of my plants. I'm in the process of doing a major water change this weekend, to try and clean the gunk, and to stable my pH.

**I did have a large pleco that I had given to a friend of mine two weeks ago. He became so large that he was "mowing" my plants over. I never had the grayish build up until after I gave him away.**

After I am done changing my water I am going to change all of my filter pieces (just the foam sponges). I tested my water again this morning and I'm currently showing a kH 0f 3ppm and gH of 9ppm. I have a water softner pillow in my filter as a stage of media to help lower the gH.

I have the same setup as you do with my CO2 and air stone at night. This isn't the first time I've had fish tanks but I've never seen this happen before. To keep you up to date.... I went to bed last night and the pH was 6.2 --> I wake up this morning and it is 6.0. I'm still stumped on why this is happening.

I look forward to your reply and hope that maybe cleaning everything really good will help stable my pH.

Thanks Again!

Take Care!!!
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:c7:

[gm72]

Nicely worded response, we appreciate your sincerity and information.

Unfortunately I'm out on this one. I can't think of why this is happening to you. I'll follow the thread though because I'm eager to learn from our more experienced members.

[grizzly]

Sorry, I'm not sure what the answer is either. It might be possible that the ph level in the water you use to refill your tank has changed. Its a long shot, but it wouldn't hurt to check.

[SpyderSpy6]

I have changed roughly 30% of the water today and I'm letting my fish accommodate before I go any further. I also dosed the tank with seachem alkaline buffer. I did the recommended dose for 30 gallons and that made the pH jump to 6.5 so I left it alone. So far so good, things seem to be stable...

With all these water changes I am noticing a definite decrease of grayish gunk build up, but there are still some fine particulates floating in the water which eventually settle. I don't want to change my filter just yet because I figure the more these nasty sponges can catch, the less will be filled in the new filter media. Is the correct to think? There is still decent water flow, but it has greatly decreased over the past week.

Although the fish seem to be doing great, I am going to wait another day before I change the filter. I just feel that there has been to much drastic change with the pH and I don't want the stress levels to be too much for them.

A couple questions I have... Will using the alkaline buffer make it so that my tank becomes dependent on it? Should I replace the plumbing tubes to my filter?? I've noticed some build up within them. I've also heard using black tubing will not allow any growth/build up on the inside. How much of this true, and is it worth it to change my tubing to black tube...and will this help cut back on the grayish gunk and build up?

Thank you everyone that has helped me over the past weekend, specifically Dave66... I really appreciate it!

Take Care!
thumbs2:
:c7:

[jestep]

I'm assuming that your KH was degrees hardness and not PPM. 3PPM Kh would be virtually impossible to achieve and would be completely unstable.

My guess is that your pillow was buffering the carbonate hardness of the tank, and caused it to destabilize.

Basically the pillow strips the calcium out of the Kh ion: CaCO3. It most likely replaces it with H -> H2CO3 (Carbonic Acid) - CaCO3 -> H2CO3. The H in the H2CO3 is not free, so it cannot contribute to any change in PH.

Normally, the tank would combine the natural CaCO3 with free H+ in the water, and the PH would remain stable, which is carbonate buffering. The GH would go up over time because of the increasing amount of Ca in the tank. However, now with the removal of CaCO3, the natural H+ in the water can't combine, and there ends up being an excess of H+ in the tank. PH is a rough measure of Free H+ ions in the water, and since there is nothing to keep these in check, the PH will drop once the remaining CaCO3 is used up. This is also why it's hard to maintain a stable Ph with a really low Kh.

Personally, I would take out the water softener pillow, and just use tap. Unless you are planning on breeding, your fish should be fine well into the 7.** PH range. You will have a much more stable system which is far more important than a low PH / hardness.

I've only seen this happen on small tanks, but I suppose it's possible if the softener is very efficient.

[gm72]

I will still say you are messing with your tank's pH too much. Leave it alone and monitor what happens.

[SpyderSpy6]

JeStep...

Thank you for the detailed response, I really appreciate you helping me understand what is going on. What you are saying makes perfect sense, because I was replacing the softner pillow everytime I changed the sponge pads. The last change was about a week or so ago, and I'm going to guess that's what was causing it to drop.

I used seachem alkaline buffer to stabilize the pH and still have not done anything with my filter. The pH seems to be stabilized now, and I haven't changed my water since Monday because I felt that it was too much for the fish. I'm currently maintaining a 6.8 pH. I am going to breed my discus, I've already had two cycles, but not much progress. That is why I've been trying to maintain a low pH. I will be separating them once they have had a couple more cycles.

I am going to take the water softner pillow out of my filter, as you recommended. What changes in the water or fish should I look for?? I'm nervous that I will mess up my water and kill my discus, which I would hate for that to happen. Let me know if you have any other suggestions!

Thank you to all that helped me this past week! It really made a huge help!

Take Care!!

thumbs2:
:c7:

[Dave66]

I have changed roughly 30% of the water today and I'm letting my fish accommodate before I go any further. I also dosed the tank with seachem alkaline buffer. I did the recommended dose for 30 gallons and that made the pH jump to 6.5 so I left it alone. So far so good, things seem to be stable...

With all these water changes I am noticing a definite decrease of grayish gunk build up, but there are still some fine particulates floating in the water which eventually settle. I don't want to change my filter just yet because I figure the more these nasty sponges can catch, the less will be filled in the new filter media. Is the correct to think? There is still decent water flow, but it has greatly decreased over the past week.

Although the fish seem to be doing great, I am going to wait another day before I change the filter. I just feel that there has been to much drastic change with the pH and I don't want the stress levels to be too much for them.

A couple questions I have... Will using the alkaline buffer make it so that my tank becomes dependent on it? Should I replace the plumbing tubes to my filter?? I've noticed some build up within them. I've also heard using black tubing will not allow any growth/build up on the inside. How much of this true, and is it worth it to change my tubing to black tube...and will this help cut back on the grayish gunk and build up?

Thank you everyone that has helped me over the past weekend, specifically Dave66... I really appreciate it!

Take Care!
thumbs2:
:c7:

Spy,
The 'greyish gunk' is a build-up of biofilm on the leaves, with fungal and cyano-bacterial organisms on top giving you the color. What's your filtration like? Canister I expect, but what is its GPH? And how do you have the outflow oriented? Reason I ask is proper circulation in a planted aquarium keeps things like your grey gunk from forming. I am unaware of the type of stock you keep, but a troupe of six or more Otocinclus would keep the leaves clean, as well as algae-free. I'm sure you know they need to be fed at least daily, and more often when they run out of pickings on the glass and leaves, which they do quickly.
Why they are advising black tubing is it limits algae from forming inside the tubes. However, depending what brand of canister you purchase, most of them have 'smoked' tubes, not clear ones, so algae inside isn't a problem.
I'm still convinced your sinking pH problems stem from too little carbonate hardness in the water.
I'm going to tell you this, because its kind of a trade secret, but if you put a bag of Boyd's Chemi-pure in one of the canister's compartments it'll do, among other things, stabilize your pH. It'll also clarify your tank. It may take a week or two to get the tank in equilibrium, but if you can resist trying to adjust things during that time, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. When I build the odd tank for folks, I always drop a couple bags of Boyd's in the filters, as customers want to see a clear tank as rapidly as possible. Its an old trick.
Start limited your weekly water changes to 20 percent. If your plants are flourishing, its unlikely you'd have over 5 ppm Nitrate, if any at all. Twenty-percent replaces electrolytes and freshens the tank a bit, but if your Nitrate is all but absent, you're not diluting any with larger changes. Large partial changes stress fish, and a stressed fish is often a diseased one.

Dave

[SpyderSpy6]

Dave66,

Thanks for the reply! My filtration is a Filstar XP3 canister filter with 350gph rating. I cleaned it out two days ago, removed my water softner pillow and just added more sponge, to catch debris.

Couple things...
*I have cleaned all the debris off my plants that I see, and it has not come back yet. I have an attack pack of 5 siamese algae eaters. I did have 5 Otto's at one time. Then 3 of them jumped out of the tank and the other two perished. I have had no issues with the siamese algae eaters and they seem to keep it clean. I recently gave away an 8" pleco that kept the tank SPOTLESS, but he was damaging my plants.

*I've also added a 30 gallon HOB AquaClear to help clear the debris. I just put the tiny filter on yesterday and have noticed a little bit of difference. I would rather not purchase another filter, but I will if it comes down to it.

Back to the filter...
The cleaning and removal of the softner pillow has drastically increased the water flow(obviously), but I'm nervous not having the softner pillow in my media. Does it make much of a difference? My discus are all tank raised too. The pH has maintained a 6.7 with added CO2 to keep it down. I'm going to keep my pH @ 6.5 - 6.7, based on recent advise saying I don't need to keep such a low pH. I'm also interested to see how my plants will react.

Orientation...
I have a 4ft wide, 1 1/2ft tall and deep. Don't hold me to those measurements. Either way... if you are looking at the front of my tank.... I have the outflow coming from the top right side of the tank, flowing to the left side. The outflow is an 8" spray bar that came with the filter. I also have the option of using a direct spray nossle. Will that make a difference? The intake is a very simple surface skimmer connection with top skimming and intake about 7 inches deep or so. I've added the small filter too, which has helped a little.
*There is also a very large log in the middle of my tank.
*Also, there is still small debris floating in the water

Here is a picture of it...

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/images/thumbimg/650/3946_4.jpg

*All of the plants have been trimmed down to about 8 inches, so there is alot more open space for water flow.

Thank you so much for your help Dave! I am going to go get some Boyd's media as well.

Take Care!
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:c7:

[jbeining75]

Good luck with the tank. The discus color contrast is okey dokey. I like the setup of the tank...