One of my angelfish seems to be dying..

[plow]

My largest angelfish (maybe 6cm long) seems to be giving up.

About 10 days ago put in 2 clown loaches to kep the snail population down, within days they showed white specks on their bodies so I treated them for white "Ick" with a product called EXIT, which was a green solution. The white spots seem now to be much less but not totally gone. Today (day 4 after treatment) I came home to find one of the clwon loaches dead and my favourite angelfish swimming weakly and randomly, getting pushed around a bit by the internal filter, and even getting sucked onto the sides of it.

Aswell as the treatment, yesterday I bought some more plants and stuck them in, and two more younger angelfish and they seem fine..(so far) total poulation in tank is 4 angelfish (one not every healthy), 1 clown loach (small) and one pleco (small), these in a 120l tank.

Water quality seems fine, the tank has been established for 6 months now, I change 30l water once a week although yesterdays planting stirred up a lot of gunk, but water was clear again after an hour.

No other symptoms on the anglefish and so far the other three seem fine.

any suggestions?

[plow]

a few more details... one hour later.

I have noticed that a second angelfish is looking very sick now too, it is one of the original two that I have had in the tank for about 4 months.

So, the new anglefish I bought look fine, they are wild type with red eyes.

The two original ones that are now sick are whiteish angelfish one with a yellow tinge across his back.

I just noticed one of these vomiting up a large lump of food or something, and appearing to try to vomit more.

Please help me if you recognise these symptoms or have an ideas, its getting depressing watching my fish die. I try to take good care of my water quality and thought I was doing well until today.

The breathing of the sickest fish is very slow and its belly seems a little bigger than normal. Is it possible it ate too many cichlid sticks and this has swollen in its stomach?

I thought it could be the introduction of the two new angels from yesterday, but what could they carry and not have symptoms from that could effect my original angels within 24 hours of putting them in the tank?

[smaug]

Ive never really seen angelfish vomit before.One thing that stands out for me is the fact that you added more fish while you still possibly had ick.Also with ick meds you want to clean your tank up fairly well after you are done with the med cycle.You would do that by doing a big water change as well as pollishing your water with a good carbon in your filter.What are your water parameters,ph,nitrate,nitrite and temp?What are you feeding your fish,are your angels eating too much?

plow said:Thanks for that LH, It seems like my "overcrowding" problem is going to be sorting itself out (re:other thread on my dying fish)
I just added your above quote.If you would have put the info in this post that you put in the post I got your quote from I could have told you real fast what your problem is.YOUR OVERSTOCKED.

[plow]

I just added your above quote.If you would have put the info in this post that you put in the post I got your quote from I could have told you real fast what your problem is.YOUR OVERSTOCKED.

Really?

4 smallish angelfish, 1 pleco and 1 clown loach in a 120l aquarium is overstocked?

They dont look overcrowded but I am a newby. I was of the impression that i was keeping the stocking quite low. If it was overcrowded, would that cause em to be this sick within 24 hours of the other two arriving?

Nitrite 0
Nitrate about 10
temp 26 degrees celcius
pH often around 7.6, I add aquacid once a week to keep it around 7

I have noticed that the sickest angel seems to have slightly bulgy eyes at the moment.

I have just read your other post smaug.. I may have overfed him actually as I used to have 11 cardinals in the same tank, which I have moved about a week ago and they used to scoff all the mosquitoes before the angels could get to them, so I removed them thinking that they were stopping the angels form feeding properly and maybe slowing down their growth. Now they have had the chance to slowy scoff the lot (which i still thought was a very small amount, but maybe it wasn't)

He seems to have a bit of a full belly. But then again, a full belly on an angel still seems tiny, so its kind of hard to say....

[smaug]

angelfish need lots of room.By the so called rule of thumb of a gallon per inch of fish you are not overstocked,by angel standards you are.120l is only 30gal correct?Your water params look good to me,except for the ph which is a little high but i dont think thats your problem.Sounds like a combo of tight space{again,by angel standards]and overeating angels.Good luck.

[KazAngel]

That explains alot to me I had the same problem of fish dying this way when I first started out. My lill sis brought me the tank and fish for a bday prezzy of course the lfs didn't tell her the tank was too small for the fish she was buying.

[plow]

Thanks for your help guys, this morning the two angels were dead.

I don't beleive the overcrowding was the reason for this sudden turn, they have shared this tank with other angels before, aswell as mollies guppies and cardinals.. They wouldn't just curl up and die within 24 hours from sudden overcrowding by the addition of 2 small angels. There was a total of maybe 14 inches of fish in a 30 gallon tank when they died.

Their symptoms came on very quickly and within 20 hours of me noticing anything strange they were dead.

It must have been bacterial or something.. there was no evidence of fighting (I thought the 4 angles all got on very well together actually, for the short time they were together) and I am dubious of the overfeeding aswell, their tummies were not swollen significantly at all, in fact I reckon they have had a pretty poor appetite. People tell me that angels eat like pigs, well not mine, Mosquito larvae at feeding time would float past their faces and they would just look at them, sometimes sucking them in and then usually spitting them out again, before sucking them in again etc...

The only thing I can think of is a disease or bacteria of some sort. Nearly all the fish that I have put in this tank have died one by one over a period of time, (except for the cardinals), for reasons I cant explain. They dont show any markings on their bodies of problems, but the mollies I had in the tank all got really skinny looking, anorexic like before getting curves in their backs and dying. This usually happened to each fish over a period of a week or so.

Also my pleco who is about 5cm long, has been sitting under a rock for about a month, he used to eat tirelessly, but not anymore. He's still alive and moves occasioanlly but doesn't seem that keen on eating anymore.

Would love it if someone could help me diagnose the problem, this experience does not make me want to buy anymore fish and is putting me off fishkeeping, which I have put a lot of effort into recently, learning how things work and trying to understand water quality dynamics. Its a depressing situation to be in because i love fish but am quickly losing confidence in myself to keep them healthy.

Help.. anyone?

[crackatinny]

Sorry to hear about your angels.

I guess there is a lesson to be learned in this thread though, and please don't take offense to this, as I do not do it myself usually, and rarely read of others doing it.

Quarenteening new fish before adding to the main aquarium

[plow]

Sorry to hear about your angels.

I guess there is a lesson to be learned in this thread though, and please don't take offense to this, as I do not do it myself usually, and rarely read of others doing it.

Quarenteening new fish before adding to the main aquarium

Yeah that sounds like a good solution, if not a difficult one.

It means having a tank set up for new fish doesn't it? allowing them to be in this tank for a good period of time (how long) and observing them. And the tank that is to be used for quarantine must be totally clean right? How do you know that it is clean of harmful bacteria or disease since new fish will always come to this tank first?

Or does quarantine mean setting up the tank from scratch every time you buy new fish, starting the cycle with clean water and filter, making it biologically fish friendly even before going out to the shops to look for fish to plonk them in it?

Keeping a cat seems like so much less work.

So even if I do this and there doesn't appear to be any problem with the new fish, how do you know if your new fish are not carriers of a benign disease or acteria that may effect the fish in the main tank?

There are just so many variables... the new angels I bought seem totally healthy, their eyes have a nice red colour, they swim well and seem pretty hungry. I spent a lot of time looking at them in the shop before i bought them and they seemed perfect.

quarantine.. yeah but how? what is the process other people use that have done this successfully..

I guess my frustration is obvious here, it seems like I need to cut my losses, empty the tank of anything living and start again from the beginning.

I still have no explanation why my original angles became sick in the first place, as the new ones show no symptoms at all.

could it be the dosing I gave the tank for "Ick"?

[Lady Hobbs]

In tanks that are small especially and with more fish than should be in there, you probably are showing ammonia levels.

Did you remove the carbon before adding the meds for the ick? That needs to come out before meds are added and replaced after treatment to get rid of the meds.

Anytime you see fish in distress, a large water change will generally bring them around again. You may also not have enough oxygen going into the tank.

Over-stocked tanks need regular weekly water changes. I change out 50% every Sunday on all my tanks and often even more.

[plow]

In tanks that are small especially and with more fish than should be in there, you probably are showing ammonia levels.

Could we clarify if in fact my tank was over stocked?

I know you have said that angels like 15 gallons per adult fish, but I had about 14 inches (maybe even less) for a 30 gallon tank. Thats less than 50% of the rule of thumb of "one inch per gallon". I had 4 small angels one clown loach and one pleco. All of these fish are small and young.
Is this tank considered so over stocked that it is suffering from excess fish waste and therefore high ammonia levels.. Excuse me if i sound annoyed, I'm not. I am just confused.:confused: I am trying to learn my way around water quality here and what I have ben told in this thread so far is that 50% of the rule of thumb is still too much and thats why my angels died.

Its a hard story to swallow, especially when I am trying to learn good fish keeping practices.

btw, most of my angels have come from tanks as small young fish in the shop, where they are sharing with about 20 other angels in a 20 gallon tank and seem perfectly healthy, however when I bring them home to a 30 gallon to share with just two other young angels I am told I am overstocking.

Sorry guys, its just hard to accept this is correct when they are at such a young age.

I must admit though I have not done a check for ammonia, my nitrite levels are zero, and the tank has been established for 6 months now, and I did not touch the filter during the last week, so I assumed ammonia wouldn't be a problem. Especially since two angels were totally sick and the other two didn't show any signs of distress at all.




Did you remove the carbon before adding the meds for the ick? That needs to come out before meds are added and replaced after treatment to get rid of the meds.

No I didn't, but I will do in the future. Good advice, I didn't think the carbon did much to be fair so have been pretty slack with that. Now I have loaded up the sponge full to the brim with activated carbon, and will do so again soon after the next course of medication.




Anytime you see fish in distress, a large water change will generally bring them around again. You may also not have enough oxygen going into the tank.

Over-stocked tanks need regular weekly water changes. I change out 50% every Sunday on all my tanks and often even more.

I took a water sample into the shop, the bloke did some tests and said that it was fine. He seems to think I have some kind of illness going on, so has told me to run carbon for four days, change 20% water everyday, and start with a course of "Waterlife - Protozin".

I'll give that a blast anyway and hopefully I can start enjoying my aquarium again soon.

Thanks for your help Hobbs, I do appreciate it.. a lot. I hope I dont come across as not willing to take advice. You have offered me some and all advice is worth listening to. :thumb:

I am pretty desperate to find out what really is going on with my fish aswell. I dont want to lose anymore. Although I am also a mad keen fisherman, I love fish as the creatures they are just as much

[shockshockshad]

removing the carbon is not advice, you have to do it. it removes meds, so the meds didnt do anything. you only have it when you are TRYING to remove it AFTER you use the meds. dont use it when you arent trying to do that- waste of money.

Angelfish need 30 gallons for 1 angelfish, and 10 gallons more every other angelfish. clown loackes need to be in groups of 3 or more, so 3 would need a 55 gallon tank. plecos, depending on the type, need vaired sized tanks. if its a common pleco, 150 gallons at least. if its a bristlenose, it needs at least 20-30 gallons. those are the most common types, so thats what yours probably is.

[smaug]

Hey Plow,I can understand how you would feel beat up on about the overstocked thing.Biologically Im not certain that you are,behaviourally I think you may have been.However I do not totally believe that is what caused the death of your angels and I think we all jumped on the overstocked as a cause bandwagon a little to hastilly.All that being said,keeping angels is a really rewarding experiance but they are finicky about water quality and they are true A%# h(*^%s when it comes to finding tank mates they can live with and making sure they have enough room to not feel like they have to always be on the defense.As for the carbon when you had the meds in,any carbon at all would have removed what ever med you used so lesson learned on that.I do not personally use carbon at all because I do not want to remove all the good junk my plants need.I hope you will continue on with us here so that we may all learn from one another.
Merry Christmas

[Lady Hobbs]

(they are true A%# h(*^%s when it comes to finding tank mates they can live)

You hit that one on the head smaug.

Plow, many angels are together in the store because that's the way they're sold and they are only in this condition for a few days until someone purchases them. You'll see a tank jam packed and return in two days and it may be empty.

Your fish could have just been stressed out from their purchase, (chasing them with a net, bringing them home and putting them in another tank they were not used to). It's always good to turn your tank lights off when introducing new fish so they can settle down.

Often it's not a good idea to put small angels with larger ones due to aggression. They are very territorial and don't take well to friends visiting. More often than not, you can only have one pair in a tank together. A mated pair and they will decide who they want for their mate. They won't let us pick for them. :)

Fish do not throw up. They will eat food and spit out bites of it. Angels do a burp thing, I've also noticed. Just one of their mannerisms.

That rule of 1" per gallon only applies to small fish. It does not apply to angelfish that will get 7 inches (fin to fin) and even larger. It also does not apply to territorial fish.

An Oscar, for instance, might be 14" long but it should not be in a tank less than 55 gallon with 75 gallons much more practical. You have to consider what kind of fish, how large it will get and if it is a schooling fish, etc. Forget that rule as it will only confuse you with purchases of fish.

Charcoal purifies the water. It must be removed when medication is used and returned to remove that medication along with a water change.

But really, you don't want angels in your tank. They will get too large and it will be a constant fight. You may never know what happened to your angels. They require very clean water, plenty of oxygen and plenty of room.

You can have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates but your water could still be old and lacking in oxygen. Good clean water always helps many issues but your fish may have been ill from the get-go.

[shockshockshad]

what does "you hit that one on the head" mean? Sorry, i am a little tired- does it mean "you got that right!' or "you said a naughty word"?

[Lady Hobbs]

You don't understand my Michigan drawl? It means, You got that one right!

LOL

Ya know, like hitting the nail on the head.

[plow]

thanks for your help guys..

I seem to have everything under control now, I have been running carbon for a couple of days and been changing 20% water everyday for the last few days.

My clown loach looks much healtheir, no white spots, my two remaining angels look bright and alert and eat like mad when given the chance, very small feedings twice a day.

this thread has taught me one thing mainly, and that is to take it easy with the aquarium. Not to introduce new fish and new plants and do lots of changes all at once. Change just one thing at a time, slow down and that way there are a lot less variables to think about, and much easier to know whats happening to the water and to the environment. Less stress to the fish aswell!

I still dont know why my angles died however, but Im sure I can avoid it in the future if I just slow down. (applies to a lot of things in my life actually, my patience is terrible)

I have also learnt that too many fish in a small tank with angles does not work.

Healthy happy angels need space.

Got it.

Thanks. :thumb:

[Lady Hobbs]

Do you know how nice it was to read this post this morning? It is great when someone is learning and actually listens to people here.

Nice job.

[plow]

cool to hear,

Its nice when people are willing to give advice, I was pretty desperate for some so very thankful I got it. I feel much more confident after these last few days.. experience gained the hard way.

My fish will be happier for it.

[Lady Hobbs]

One of the hardest things to get people to do is water changes. They think because their tests are OK that the water is OK too and doesn't need changing. Fish require water changes to survive and large enough water changes to make a difference. Filters remove debris and fish waste. The water is still stale, lacking in oxygen and full of pee.

You'll do just fine and the fact that you show you really care about your fish says a lot.
Good luck.

[plow]

here is a photo of my two langels..
I think they like each other. lol.

[smaug]

they are a good looking pair!

[Pr0eve]

very nice looking and the photo rocks as well.