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Radio KJ
12-18-2007, 04:02 AM
Good evening. I could use the advice of an expert here. Or, failing that, the opinion of someone who knows what they're doing better than I do.

The Angelfish in my store do not survive at all lately. They've always dropped off slowly, but just last week I brought in 30 new ones from my most reliable supplier and as of yesterday 29 are dead (and one sold). I've brought them in from multiple suppliers at different times, so I trust the issue does not come from them.

Here's the condition of the water:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: ~15mg/L (usually around 25, been low lately)
Hardness: 10dgh
pH: 8.0

Now I would hazard that the pH is the problem. I've gotten varied info, but it seems it should be somewhere between about 5.5 and 7.0.

Problem is, tapwater around here is 8.5-8.7. I've tried many times to lower the pH -- consider that in this store this tank is connected with 20 others sharing the same 600G of water -- but I can't seem to drop below the 8.0 mark. At least not for long, what with new water coming in during the changes. And isolating the new water to treat before it enters the tank would take far too much of my staff's time.

Anyway, knowing these conditions, am I better off to just stop bringing in Angels? A lot of people have been asking for freshwater Puffers lately anyway and I don't have any other free tanks right now.

Futureboy
12-18-2007, 04:07 AM
how are you aclimatising them to the new water?

Radio KJ
12-18-2007, 05:45 AM
They spend a minimum 30 minutes with the bag torn open floating in the water for temperature adjustment. About half-way through that we'll put some of the tank water in the bag for condition adjustment. The actual time spent in the bag depends on how many fish we bring in and how busy the store is that morning.

DragonGoby
12-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Actually, the first thing that I see it's your level of nitrate...
25 or even 15 is a little high for fish, and particularly if they are new fish...
How is your water change schedule?

But perhaps there is a problem with your filtration system... Perhaps it will better do clean all your tanks. If your earlier fish were ill, perhaps it has contamineated all your tanks...

I'm sorry for your loss, hope someone will be more helpful than me...

digital3
12-18-2007, 06:29 PM
They spend a minimum 30 minutes with the bag torn open floating in the water for temperature adjustment. About half-way through that we'll put some of the tank water in the bag for condition adjustment. The actual time spent in the bag depends on how many fish we bring in and how busy the store is that morning.

I think you have to do a little more than that for proper acclimation. You can try one of two methods. Either

Method A
1. float the fish bag in your water for about 15-20
2. pour 1/2 cup of your water into the bag every 5 minutes until the bag is full.
3. when bag is full dump out half of the water
4. repeat step 2 until the bag is full again
5. net fish into your aquarium

Method B is a little more complex, and I have never tried, but I'm thinking your Angels will probably need it because they are more sensitive. It is known as the drip method. Instead of outlining it here. I'm going to just point you to the link: click here (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=19&ref=3319&subref=AI)

smaug
12-18-2007, 08:33 PM
it is most certainly your ph,good call.You may have to go with filtering through peat or some other such softening process.Good luck.

Incredulous_Ed
12-18-2007, 10:42 PM
ph should not be a problem. Try different methods of acclimation.

Algenco
12-18-2007, 10:50 PM
I would contact the supplier and ask what the ph of their water is. I there is a big difference .5 or higher that most likely is your problem. A very slow drip acclimation would be necessary, at least 1 hour. Most fish suffer from a .2 change

smaug
12-18-2007, 11:17 PM
incr.ed said:ph should not be a problem
Trust me ,ph that high is definetly a problem with angelfish,especially since the poster has a shop.people will be buying these fish and even on the off chance they do acclimitize to the severly high ph in his shop the people buying them will almost certainly not have water with that high of a ph.

Tigerbarb
12-19-2007, 12:55 AM
It probably has something to do with the supplier. Has tis happened when you bought fish from other suppliers?

TowBoater
12-19-2007, 01:27 AM
Acclimate for 1 hour. Let sit in bag for 15 min and then every 5 min for the next 45 min. add a small bit of your tank water to the bag.

Radio KJ
12-20-2007, 01:36 AM
Whew, I take a day off to head out of town and find a lot to catch up on. Let's see what we've learned...


I think you have to do a little more than that for proper acclimation. You can try one of two methods...

Acclimate for 1 hour. Let sit in bag for 15 min and then every 5 min for the next 45 min. add a small bit of your tank water to the bag.

It's hard to do a thourough acclimatising when we receive 800-1000 fish at once and must get them out of the bags and into the tanks before the afternoon rush, but I'll see about adopting a method with this information that's both speedy and good for the fish.


Actually, the first thing that I see it's your level of nitrate...
25 or even 15 is a little high for fish, and particularly if they are new fish...

I'm told by the fish expert at head office that nitrate usually doesn't cause problems other than algae growth. Is there something else I need to know about it?



How is your water change schedule?

Each "wall" of the store is done once a week. Any specific tank that seems to be having trouble gets done when the staff have free time.


But perhaps there is a problem with your filtration system... Perhaps it will better do clean all your tanks. If your earlier fish were ill, perhaps it has contamineated all your tanks...

The filtration is custom built for the store. Sponges get cleaned before doing that day's water change, and other media is changed three or four times a year. This problem only seems to affect Angels -- everyone else on the wall is fine. The conditions of this tank are the same as the conditions on the rest of the wall, so I'm a little skeptic that there's anything specific in there. But I guess we'll find out when I try putting other fish in it.


Trust me ,ph that high is definetly a problem with angelfish,especially since the poster has a shop.people will be buying these fish and even on the off chance they do acclimitize to the severly high ph in his shop the people buying them will almost certainly not have water with that high of a ph.

I tested the plain tap water before it hit the tanks and it's very high -- 8.5-8.7. Most of the people who come into the store for water tests have close to that result. I've only seen lower levels from people who come from out of town, and even then it's usually in the 7.5-8.0 range. It's something I'm trying to bring down but it's a city-wide (province-wide?) issue.


It probably has something to do with the supplier. Has tis happened when you bought fish from other suppliers?

Every commercial supplier I have contact with. They are, however, all in different parts of the province and probably in areas with lower pH than here. If I could find a local supplier or breeder I'd give them a try.

Thanks for the input everyone. In the meantime, I'll try keeping other fish in that tank and try again with the Angels once I can get the conditions better in check.