Getting back in the game...community tank!

[vegas2k]

Long time since I have left the fishkeeping years back. Getting my 55gal long fired back up again. Thinking community tank, pretty basic. Here is what I am thinking off the top of my head.

Planted with only stuff that my fish won't touch such as swords, java moss on manzanita branches that I will be gathering at Lake Tahoe( i live near there and they have a ton of these.

black substrate with smooth because of cory cats (does flourite substrate exist that wont harm cory cats?)

Stocking
1 RCS - plan is to add RCS in first, let them live and maybe breed for a while, get some, while I get the plants, decorations in there.

2 Cory cats - I would like a small school of these
3 a pair of gouramis...or other colorful peaceful fish. Not picky here. The goal is colorful fun tank that causes least amt problems.
4 some other tiny low bioload fish that schools
5 pleco - will the corys and rcs outcompete the pleco?


Some questions....
I assume I should gradually stock to prevent mini cycles?
Feasible to facilitate rcs to spawn? At some point tank can support adding fish? Trying to figure out the logistics. I wonder if i am just better off fishless cycling with a large bioload, adding fish first such as cories because rcs has so little waste.

What ratios of fish am I looking at without being overstocked?

[vegas2k]

In addition, I have a large HOB filter(AC110) and a cannister(fluval 300 series) Probably will use the HOB if it is sufficient? Easier to clean.

[mbkemp]

Following

Rcs are great. They won’t handle ammonia well and like a more seasoned tank in my experience. Most everything will hunt them while they are small. They will need cover. You might consider cholla wood for them. It will give them a plant to hide and graze from

There are many types of plecos. I personally love Bristlenose. Mine are out front and generally active. Females are more do then males in my experience. Young Bristlenose will eat algae and bio film. As they mature they become more omnivorous. Mine love bloodworms and earthworm sticks.

Many pleco species are carnivorous and need lots of flow. Some eat lots of wood. Bristlenose are hardy

[SueD]

I would definitely recommend going the fishless cycle route. Read through this - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=5640

and this - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=125481

When you cycle with fish, not only do you risk harm to the fish, but you're constantly having to monitor water parameters and do frequent water changes to keep things stable until you complete the cycle.

Some people will add a larger amount of fish once the tank is cycled because they may be having them shipped and want to get the most bang for the buck out of the shipping charges. I'm fortunate to have a LFS nearby and I prefer to stock slowly.

Depending on what your other schooling fish might be, you may or may not have luck with RCS. I have adults which have survived with tetras such as diamonds, silver tips, and HY511, but have seen few babies/juvies in there. In other tanks with things like pencilfish, WCMM, and a few other nano species, the RCS do breed and increase in population. I have no experience with gouramis so I can't say how RCS will fare with them, but cories have not been an issue with RCS in my tanks. I have had BN plecos with cories before and there were no problems. I've since sold the plecos off as I never saw them and they just added too much bioload for my tank.

The AC110 could be sufficient dependent on your bioload; others prefer canister filters. I personally use just HOB's as they're easier for me to maintain. You can play around with this calculator to check stocking levels against your tank size and equipment - http://www.aqadvisor.com/

[RiversGirl]

Plus ten to @SueD 's recommendation with the fishless cycle route.

Welcome back, vegas2k!

[Rocksor]

personally i would plant and decorate first before the rcs. Let the plants establish themselves, like weeks. Do you know if you have chloramine treated tap water? If so, treating with Prime will convert the ammonia to ammonium and will readily feed the plants.

[vegas2k]

I would definitely recommend going the fishless cycle route. Read through this - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=5640

and this - http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=125481

When you cycle with fish, not only do you risk harm to the fish, but you're constantly having to monitor water parameters and do frequent water changes to keep things stable until you complete the cycle.

Some people will add a larger amount of fish once the tank is cycled because they may be having them shipped and want to get the most bang for the buck out of the shipping charges. I'm fortunate to have a LFS nearby and I prefer to stock slowly.

Depending on what your other schooling fish might be, you may or may not have luck with RCS. I have adults which have survived with tetras such as diamonds, silver tips, and HY511, but have seen few babies/juvies in there. In other tanks with things like pencilfish, WCMM, and a few other nano species, the RCS do breed and increase in population. I have no experience with gouramis so I can't say how RCS will fare with them, but cories have not been an issue with RCS in my tanks. I have had BN plecos with cories before and there were no problems. I've since sold the plecos off as I never saw them and they just added too much bioload for my tank.

The AC110 could be sufficient dependent on your bioload; others prefer canister filters. I personally use just HOB's as they're easier for me to maintain. You can play around with this calculator to check stocking levels against your tank size and equipment - http://www.aqadvisor.com/


I have done only fishless in the past. I only mention this because I read that if I put only a few RCS in my 55 gal tank, the ammonia buildup would be negligible. It looks like I am going to do a few fish at a time, since I can get most of not all the fish I need locally anyways.

I have read that Cory cats won't touch RCS. As for schooling fish, maybe by adding large RC first with my Cory cats, they will help maintain my cycled tank as I slowly add fish.

Here is my updated plan with all I've read here so far...

1. substrate, plant tank, get plants settled in while cycling tank. Maybe add my manzanita while cycling. My water company uses chlorine to treat. Does that mean I end up with Chloramines in the water? I do use prime. Have my same Prime bottle. From what I am reading from Rocksor, this will feed my plants? So I do not need flourite substrate for my plants to thrive? I need smooth substrate because rough substrate will harm the Cory cats whiskers.

2. Once tank cycled, plants should be established. Add Cory Cats and RCS

3. Add schooling fish - looking for all options. peaceful, that won't ravage my plants. I am thinking about getting a group of Harlequin Rasbora, and a group of black skirt tetras. maybe 10 of each?

4. Centerpiece. Maybe a pair of honey gouramis....or Bolivian Rams..other options?

5.add a bunch of adult RCS, so they should not get eaten. I will consider the cholla wood. Never heard of it but it looks really cool too. It'll go nicely with my manzanita branches.



Probably stick with my AC110 to start it's a very large HOB that I can stuff a lot of my ceramic rings in, and easy to clean.

Thanks Rivergirl for the welcome! I have rinsed out my old tank, and will soon be running it. I still have my old surfactant free ammonia bottle to get the cycle going.

Stocking # :
1. RCS : around 10, see if they multiply
2. Cory cats : 5
3. Harlequin Rasbora, black skirt tetras : 10 of each
4. 4 Bolivian Rams

Does this look under, about right, or over?
According to Aqadvisor, 75%. I have no desire to overstock. Any incompatibilities? These are all pretty peaceful species.

http://aqadvisor.com/AquStockImage.php?N=&L=48&D=12&H=21&J=&UV=gUS&UL=inch&F=5:200909300155:,10:200909300094:,10:200909300022 :,10:200909300181:,4:200909300031:

[Slaphppy7]

Stocking plan sounds good, but consider black phantom tetras instead of the black skirts..BS's can be a bit nippy...BP's are just as nice looking, and very peaceful

If you start off with about 3-4 PPM of ammonia to start your cycle, you should be able to add all of the fish at once

With a tank that size, I'd get 10 corys, 12-15 each of the harleys and tetras...never kept rams before, but 4 should work

[Rocksor]

You will still need flourite for the plants in the long run. Plants will consume ammonium first before they consume nitrates, which is where the water conditioner comes into play. Prime will detoxify ammonia and turn it into ammonium for 48 hours.

You are right about a small colony of RCS, and even one as large as 10, would have negligible impact on a 55g for weeks. I had a 12" pleco, 3" oscar, 3" chocolate cichlid, 3" clown pleco, 5 x 3-4" silver dollars, and 4" vieja in a brand new 240g with cycled filters, and I didn't see any nitrate increase for 3 weeks. That's quite a bit more biomass than RCS in a 55g.

approximately

1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate

[RiversGirl]

Wonderful news that you already have the right ammonia to get things started. I really like cholla wood too -- it just seems neat!

You have a nice plan and your thought to place the wood in while cycling is a great one. You will be able to play around with placements without disturbing future inhabitants.

Down the road, I hope you do go with some harlequin rasbora. I've long admired those, so I'm looking forward to seeing them in particular in your tank!

[angelcraze2]

You are right about a small colony of RCS, and even one as large as 10, would have negligible impact on a 55g for weeks. I had a 12" pleco, 3" oscar, 3" chocolate cichlid, 3" clown pleco, 5 x 3-4" silver dollars, and 4" vieja in a brand new 240g with cycled filters, and I didn't see any nitrate increase for 3 weeks. That's quite a bit more biomass than RCS in a 55g.

approximately

1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate

How did you keep nitrate from rising in that tank? Does it mean it's mostly organics in an established tank that pushes them up?

[Rocksor]

How did you keep nitrate from rising in that tank? Does it mean it's mostly organics in an established tank that pushes them up?

There was so much water in the tank compared to the amount of nitrates produced, I didn't get over the 5ppm measurement with the API nitrate test for 3 weeks.

[vegas2k]

Stocking plan sounds good, but consider black phantom tetras instead of the black skirts..BS's can be a bit nippy...BP's are just as nice looking, and very peaceful

If you start off with about 3-4 PPM of ammonia to start your cycle, you should be able to add all of the fish at once

With a tank that size, I'd get 10 corys, 12-15 each of the harleys and tetras...never kept rams before, but 4 should work


Ok, looked up the black phantom tetras. They look so close! If I can get them, I will change to those tetras, thanks. The less drama I have in the tank, the happier I am. I'll also consider increasing the other fish stocking like you said of the harleys, corys and tetras. I LOVE Cory cats, so I really look forward to watching them together, foraging.

ok on the flourite, will get that. do they have flourite that is friendly to cory cat whiskers?


Riversgirl me too!!

[Slaphppy7]

You don't need fluorite substrate for plants to grow, sand will work just fine...I use this in 2 of my planted tanks, inexpensive, readily available (usually), and looks good

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50-lb-Pool-Filter-Sand-115350/202314677

[sfsamm]

Just wanted to chime in here and say definitely wait for the tank to be established well before RCS they'll do much better for you. Maybe pickup a little 5g and grow your colony a couple months with a sponge filter while you stock and mature your big tank and once you get a hundred or so shrimp move them over to the big tank. Most Cory will still eat shrimplets if they stumble over them they just don't actively hunt them down.

As for the rest of the stock you mentioned I haven't kept several of what you're interested in so I don't have much to add.

I do find flourite sand to be wonderful for plants and it is my preferred substrate.

[vegas2k]

I decided on black Flourite. I think 3 5lb bags should give me 2inches according to the calculator. maybe a little more because I have a light diffuser along the bottom of the tank to protect from any rocks I put in there. suggestion on hardy plants, set it and forget it ones...not finicky ones? I will also toss in some Marimo balls. love those :)

[vegas2k]

here is a page of some plants that I have read about here for beginners. I like the DWARF HAIRGRASS and maybe MARSILEA MINUTA for the foreground. some of those tall plants for the background. probably leave some empty ground in some spots too. do these grow and expand beyond where you plant it?

[aquariumlover10]

You don't need fluorite substrate for plants to grow, sand will work just fine...I use this in 2 of my planted tanks, inexpensive, readily available (usually), and looks good

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50-lb-Pool-Filter-Sand-115350/202314677

I have used this sand and also Black Diamond blasting sand before and plants do fine in them.
If you are worried about nutrients you can put about an inch of potting soil (something with no added fertilizers, just dirt, and organic debris) under your sand. The soil will provide plenty of nutrients for your plants for a decent amount of time.

[vegas2k]

here is a page of some plants that I have read about here for beginners. I like the DWARF HAIRGRASS and maybe MARSILEA MINUTA for the foreground. some of those tall plants for the background. probably leave some empty ground in some spots too. do these grow and expand beyond where you plant it?

so any thoughts on my plant ideas?

Also, I want to use flourite. But I don't know if I have to use sand to protect the corys barbels. Seems to be a lot of debate online about this. Is Seachem Flourite substrate ok for them? or do I have to use the sand to protect them?

thanks!

[vegas2k]

according to member dbosman here :

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=83091

barbel erosion is due to water quality, and not really the substrate. debunked according to him. so maybe I am ok using regular flourite substrate.

[SueD]

Flourite makes a sand product, too

https://www.amazon.com/Flourite-Black-Sand-15-4-lbs/dp/B0018CLX3C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533313389&sr=8-1&keywords=flourite+sand

[vegas2k]

We live close to Lake Tahoe. As luck would have it, they have a ton of dead manzanita and other woods all over the place. I grabbed a few while there today. Removed the bark off of one piece that I will be putting in my shrimp breeder tank, and the rest in some form may go to the other tank. Here is what I got today. After seeing so much, I might bring the hatchback and gather a ton more next time. Maybe I can sell the ones I don't use? Here is a pic of some pieces. The one on the top I have stripped most of the bark off already. the ones on the left I am not sure if I just prepare those as is, or need to pull bark off? the one on the Right I am planning on adding to the RCS breeder tank. should give them some decent refuge I think? It's about 8 inches long. I have stuck them all in the bottom of a tub of water for now to soak, will add bleach at some point to kill anything that might be living on them. I read to put a 1 to 9 ratio of water to bleach? It was fun searching for some driftwood. We look forward to finding more :)
56219

[Rocksor]

We live close to Lake Tahoe. As luck would have it, they have a ton of dead manzanita and other woods all over the place. I grabbed a few while there today. Removed the bark off of one piece that I will be putting in my shrimp breeder tank, and the rest in some form may go to the other tank. Here is what I got today. After seeing so much, I might bring the hatchback and gather a ton more next time. Maybe I can sell the ones I don't use? Here is a pic of some pieces. The one on the top I have stripped most of the bark off already. the ones on the left I am not sure if I just prepare those as is, or need to pull bark off? the one on the Right I am planning on adding to the RCS breeder tank. should give them some decent refuge I think? It's about 8 inches long. I have stuck them all in the bottom of a tub of water for now to soak, will add bleach at some point to kill anything that might be living on them. I read to put a 1 to 9 ratio of water to bleach? It was fun searching for some driftwood. We look forward to finding more :)
56219

Folks who sell manzanita power wash the bark off of the pieces they sell

[sfsamm]

Huh, Tahoe isn't out of my range I just haven't made the trip as I'm not the biggest fan of people lol. Might have to go peruse the area if it's got manzanita around, I'm always looking for that "just right" piece and really appreciate manzanita wood.

[SueD]

For the RCS breeder tank, try to get a clump of moss - java, christmas, subwassertang, or any of the many others. The shrimp will appreciate that as additional cover.

[vegas2k]

Huh, Tahoe isn't out of my range I just haven't made the trip as I'm not the biggest fan of people lol. Might have to go peruse the area if it's got manzanita around, I'm always looking for that "just right" piece and really appreciate manzanita wood.


Most of the stuff I gather is on barren areas near Tahoe, not necessarily in the busy tourist areas. Just look while driving the roads leading in. Or have a spotter look while you drive. No interaction with people, and tons of treasure! :)

[vegas2k]

Stocking plan sounds good, but consider black phantom tetras instead of the black skirts..BS's can be a bit nippy...BP's are just as nice looking, and very peaceful

If you start off with about 3-4 PPM of ammonia to start your cycle, you should be able to add all of the fish at once

With a tank that size, I'd get 10 corys, 12-15 each of the harleys and tetras...never kept rams before, but 4 should work



I have my sand substrate in, dwarf hairgrass plugs are in there and waiting for those plugs to make runners. My fish order will include a few floating nitrate absorbers...

I am wondering, you say 3-4ppm ammonia...how long should it take for the bacteria to process that much ammonia to be fast enough to drop my fish in? thanks!

[Slaphppy7]

Every cycle is different, all of mine have averaged around 3 weeks

[Boundava]

Cycling times vary. if you have some good aeration and get the temp up to 82-83 that will help the bacteria to grow. The cycle can take 2-3 weeks or a month, sometimes more. Every tank is different.

I agree with Slap that you can add all of the fish at once when doing a fishless cycle with 3-4 ppm of ammonia. It's how I have started multiple tanks with no issues with cycle crashes. Be expecting some bacterial blooms with the wood-nasty snoty looking gunk-its normal and will go away. If you hate it you can remove the wood and rinse the slime away.

For low maintenance plants I would have recommended crypts, they are hardy and relatively slow growers, many common varieties like c. wendtii like all manner of light levels and can get nutrients from water as well as roots. Apanos are also easy plants and crispus or longipulmosis would look good in a 55.You may find that hair grass a bit fussy. I have never had luck with it.

c. wendtii has different color variations:
56444
56445

a. longipulmosus
56446

a. crispus
56447

[Rocksor]

Cycling differs as a result of the composition of the water. The higher your water PH is the longer it can take because there is more free ammonia (that slows down the cycling process) than those with lower PH. So if you dose at 3-4ppm with hard water, it can take your tank longer to cycle than if you dose a 0.5ppm of ammonia and use Prime to bind the 0.5ppm of ammonia. You can still cycle with adding 3-4ppm of ammonia, but you need to add 4x the dosing of Prime. But adding more Prime reduces the oxygen level in the tank, and the more oxygen in your water the better it is for growing BB.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02701467

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096085240500180X

free ammonia calculator with regards to PH and temperature

http://home.eng.iastate.edu/~jea/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html

[dwarfguy]

https://www.climate-policy-watcher.org/nitrogen-removal/the-influence-of-ph-on-the-nitrification-rate.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/260222384_Interactions_of_Temperature_pH_and_Bioma ss_on_the_Nitrification_Process/amp

You would need really, really hard water as optimal pH for nitrification is generally considered to be high 7s to low 8s depending on the source. At higher pH the ammonia v ammonium equilibrium does also affect the toxicity to fish.

[vegas2k]

what I am trying to ask is, how fast should the BB process 3-4ppm to 0ppm for it to be enough to handle the entirety of the fish I will be dropping in? a day? half a day?

[Boundava]

Once your tank has cycled it will be ready for the fish in their entirety. You should have enough beneficial bacteria to stock it with the fish that are able to go into a new tank. Keep in mind there are fish that need establish tanks before you add them. You need to research whether or not they can go immediately into a tank or if they need something that has been established.

[sfsamm]

You should be processing Ammonia completely to nitrAtes in 24 hours or less at whatever your desired level is to be considered cycled.

[steeler58]

Once your tank has cycled it will be ready for the fish in their entirety. You should have enough beneficial bacteria to stock it with the fish that are able to go into a new tank. Keep in mind there are fish that need establish tanks before you add them. You need to research whether or not they can go immediately into a tank or if they need something that has been established.

:+1: to that ;-)

[vegas2k]

a little update. Life is getting in the way of keeping it cycled with higher ammonia ppm. So, being tired of an empty tank, I did a big WC, and got my 10 black skirt tetras and added them. I have some baby plants in there, hornwort and Wisteria. Now that I am adding to an established tank going forward, I wonder how many raspboras, Cory cats, or Rams I can add at once. that is whichever of those fish becomes available, how many can I add without the risk of too much of a mini cycle.

A little reminder of my stocking :

1. Cory cats : 5
2. Harlequin Rasbora, black skirt tetras(already added tetras) : 10 of each
3. 4 Bolivian Rams

[vegas2k]

rigged up a basic twitch stream of the tank for me to watch the tank and for showing as needed. Here is the tank(should mostly be live unless I mess something up lol) with the tetras, some fake plants just to have some cover as I try to get my plants growing. You might see my floating plant, some of the grass I put down, and the wisteria I planted.

https://www.twitch.tv/ushall?fbclid=IwAR3bbvgcR6WNicdE4ks-wOPFgRCdXmjGfUll5zBaICvvypwujwpUHNpcZDY

[Slaphppy7]

The Twitch thing doesn't work, for me anyway

How are the black skirts doing with the harleys and the rams?...they can be a little fin-nippy, but in larger numbers like you have, they usually will keep that to themselves, if it happens at all

[vegas2k]

The Twitch thing doesn't work, for me anyway

How are the black skirts doing with the harleys and the rams?...they can be a little fin-nippy, but in larger numbers like you have, they usually will keep that to themselves, if it happens at all


Yeah I was using my phone as the camera for twitch last night. I took it offline. But if you go to that page, you can click on "clips", and you can see my recording. So my question above was that I added the 10 tetras as it was what was available and I wanted to get fish in. I have yet to add anything else. I am wondering perhaps how many raspboras, or cory cats etc I can add at a time. I have read somewhere that typically you can add about an inch of fish per 10 gallons. maybe that equates to 4-5 raspboras, maybe 2 rams, or 5 cory cats? of course I'll watch the water carefully while adding in case I need to do a WC after adding fish in case I get a bit of a mini cycle. maybe I should also space out the additions? by a certain amt of days/weeks?


here is a link to the feed from last night :

https://www.twitch.tv/ushall/clip/SpineyEnergeticSandpiperWholeWheat?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time


as you can see from the feed, they generally form a school. I think they do it more when I show up. probably triggered by the scary man walking around them lol. I wonder if the larger Rams and overall more fish will cause them to school more. It will be nice to see the raspboras and tetras in their own little groups swimming around the tank. Especially with the raspbora coloring.

[Slaphppy7]

Lots of room in that tank, a nice big piece of DW would look great...I know your plants haven't grown in yet

I'd have at least 10 corys, 15 harleys, and 12 or 15 BS, when done stocking, along with the rams

[vegas2k]

so in my RCS breeder tank, which is just a sponge filter with a small piece of cholla wood in there, They have bred once, and I had babies once already. Since then they have not bred, maybe a month now. I decided to buy some specialty shrimp food, hoping that they will eat that and start breeding again. That food comes in tomorrow(Hikari shrimp food). Then today I decided to do a water test. I noticed today that I have a trace amt of ammonia. the lowest on the API scale. .25 maybe the next one up. So that alarmed me. I had the cholla wood in there and a small almond leaf that they are eating slowly. there always is a lot of debris from what I assume is the slow breakdown of the cholla wood. Can the leaf or the wood debris be the reason for the ammonia? I can't see what else would be causing this mini cycle.everywhere I read says cholla wood and these leaves are good for them, but also that breakdown of organic matter = ammonia. So I'm wondering if I should completely remove the wood, leaf, and vacuum the debris up(which I did some already to be safe. it's difficult to do as I don't want to suck up the shrimp).

[vegas2k]

I have decided after looking at plant options to remove Nitrates, and phosphates as well, is to just put together and install a cheap DIY scrubber. I have completed it and it's in my shrimp tank with a grow light on it. I hope to start seeing an algae bloom on it at some point this coming week. I also read that it's a good idea to have snails for cleanup in the shrimp tank, since the shrimp make so little waste, it's nice to have some more bioload from the snails to keep the ben bacteria going well. Once the water parameters look better, I'll start feeding them the hikari shrimp food regularly to get some more breeding going on.