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AquaAlex1993
07-02-2017, 01:41 AM
I am really considering getting some altum angels from Angelfish USA. Are they hardy? They have great prices and I am thinking about getting a small group!
These are the ones I am interested in.
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4/Products/%22Siegrist%20%28Orinoco%29%20%20P.%20Altum%22/SubProducts/%22Siegrist%20%28Orinoco%29%20%20P.%20Altum-0005%22

https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4.sf/sec49d4950006/?

Rocksor
07-02-2017, 03:11 AM
Altums are more difficult to keep, even tank raised ones, than the typical scalare angelfish. I would look for a seller local to you.

AquaAlex1993
07-02-2017, 03:43 AM
Altums are more difficult to keep, even tank raised ones, than the typical scalare angelfish. I would look for a seller local to you.

Will do. I am currently researching, I have kept scalare and Leopaldi and succeeded. I am currently keeping saltwater as well. I am sure if I research I can keep altums.

waylon101
07-02-2017, 09:33 PM
Altums can be a ton of work. I've seen some pictures of your tank and you look like a pretty accomplished keeper so I'm not questioning your skill. Its just important to note all the extra things that come with keeping altums. There are some different routes to consider with Altums. Wild-Caught, F2, or Altums crossed with Scalare.
Wild-Caught:
Often times will need to quarantine in case of parasites and will need a good bit of knowledge on treating disease.
RO Unit
F2
Easier to maintain in some cases
Would still recommend RO Unit
Scalare Cross
A lot better with Hardiness
Can probably be kept a higher PH environment

Consider these things and assess whether that is doable and worth it to you. Good Luck!

AquaAlex1993
07-03-2017, 12:07 AM
Altums can be a ton of work. I've seen some pictures of your tank and you look like a pretty accomplished keeper so I'm not questioning your skill. Its just important to note all the extra things that come with keeping altums. There are some different routes to consider with Altums. Wild-Caught, F2, or Altums crossed with Scalare.
Wild-Caught:
Often times will need to quarantine in case of parasites and will need a good bit of knowledge on treating disease.
RO Unit
F2
Easier to maintain in some cases
Would still recommend RO Unit
Scalare Cross
A lot better with Hardiness
Can probably be kept a higher PH environment

Consider these things and assess whether that is doable and worth it to you. Good Luck!

Thank you for your input and advice!
I am one who always likes a challenge. I take on many challenges in my life and I put forth all my effort and I've succeeded in most of them.
I think what it comes down to is a healthy strong fish. A fish that has been in tap water or water close to our home water and a fish that has been eating very well.
It just takes time to find the proper specimens.
I know that I will have to be very heavy on water changes and keeping an eye on the parameters, but I like doing water changes anyway!
Everything I read about the F1 and F2 Altums from AngelfishUSA seems to indicate that they are hardy, only a few people had losses.
But the one thing stopping me is prices. AngelfishUSA has some incredibly high prices, my lfs from time to time gets altums, but they never QT their fish.
Jeff Rapps from TUIC has wild scalare and leopaldi angelfish. I am also considering wild caught scalare and leopaldi.
Either way I am researching and getting myself ready for this challenge.

waylon101
07-03-2017, 12:36 AM
Thank you for your input and advice!
I am one who always likes a challenge. I take on many challenges in my life and I put forth all my effort and I've succeeded in most of them.
I think what it comes down to is a healthy strong fish. A fish that has been in tap water or water close to our home water and a fish that has been eating very well.
It just takes time to find the proper specimens.
I know that I will have to be very heavy on water changes and keeping an eye on the parameters, but I like doing water changes anyway!
Everything I read about the F1 and F2 Altums from AngelfishUSA seems to indicate that they are hardy, only a few people had losses.
But the one thing stopping me is prices. AngelfishUSA has some incredibly high prices, my lfs from time to time gets altums, but they never QT their fish.
Jeff Rapps from TUIC has wild scalare and leopaldi angelfish. I am also considering wild caught scalare and leopaldi.
Either way I am researching and getting myself ready for this challenge.

You could probably get away with tap water on a F2. Just acclimate it over the course of a few hours.

AquaAlex1993
07-03-2017, 01:28 AM
You could probably get away with tap water on a F2. Just acclimate it over the course of a few hours.

Yea that is a good idea. Thanks I will drip accumulate.

Rocksor
07-03-2017, 01:32 PM
Here's the thing with Altums, if you read the research Ted Judy did on them, they come from waters that are anti-septic, with a ph between 3-4. This means that a lot of pathogenic bacteria cannot survive in such a low PH. They are also shipped out of Columbia with water that is treated with phosphoric acid, to keep the PH low. I can see a lot of the failures or sudden die offs happening due to pathogenic bacteria that thrive in much higher PH killing the fish. Also, they exist in temperatures that are naturally 84f+.

angelcraze2
07-03-2017, 07:04 PM
Most of us don't keep aquariums with a pH too low for all pathogenic bacteria to survive, the nitrogen cycle would not happen either. Most of us have aquarium ecosystems that are completely different from where the wild Altums were living, even if leaves are added in a blackwater tank, if the tank is cycling, it's completely different for the angelfish.

That's why I'd go with f2 if you can find them like Waylon already suggested, they'd be a bit stronger against pathogens. Out-crossed is even better, but that risk of parasite and more sensitive fish is still there.

Rocksor
07-03-2017, 07:07 PM
That's why I'd go with f2 if you can find them like Waylon already suggested, they'd be a bit stronger against pathogens. Out-crossed is even better, but that risk of parasite and more sensitive fish is still there.

Still a bit tricky with F2 though. They are more likely immune to some things that would grow in the breeder's tank water, and may not be immune to what grows in your source water.

angelcraze2
07-03-2017, 07:11 PM
True, but I was saying F2 over wild-caught. They will be less resistant, but still more vulnerable than say a scalare, especially to certain pathogens commonly seen in aquaria.

AquaAlex1993
07-04-2017, 04:58 AM
Here's the thing with Altums, if you read the research Ted Judy did on them, they come from waters that are anti-septic, with a ph between 3-4. This means that a lot of pathogenic bacteria cannot survive in such a low PH. They are also shipped out of Columbia with water that is treated with phosphoric acid, to keep the PH low. I can see a lot of the failures or sudden die offs happening due to pathogenic bacteria that thrive in much higher PH killing the fish. Also, in the wild they exist in temperatures that they are kept in are naturally 84f+.
Wow that is good to know!


True, but I was saying F2 over wild-caught. They will be less resistant, but still more vulnerable than say a scalare, especially to certain pathogens commonly seen in aquaria.
I am also thinking about wild caught scalares too, much cheaper. We'll see what is available to me.
These are the angels from angelfishusa I am interested in:
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4/Products/%22AFU-GERM%20MRS%20MED%22
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4/Products/%22F2%20ATABAPO%20ALTUM%20ANGELFISH%20MED/LG%22

How are these altums? They look good and it says they have a strong immune system but I want to make sure they will do ok.
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/837c2f23-61ea-4645-82f2-3b56290a54a4/Products/%22Siegrist%20%28Orinoco%29%20%20P.%20Altum%22

AmazonJoe
07-04-2017, 01:55 PM
Good luck with the angels with the right approach and tank setup (water parameters) and QT period everything should be fine especially with scalares.

I would make sure if you haven't already get some broad spectrum general meds and a dewormer (medicated feed) for any issues that may arise or as a prophylactic treatment. Just my two cents I'd rather treat preventively then after signs of issues.




What is your tap waters hardness and pH? Just curious lol

steeler58
07-04-2017, 11:24 PM
Sometimes you've got to try something and see how it works for you, best of luck whichever direction you go ;-)

angelcraze2
07-05-2017, 04:33 PM
I am also thinking about wild caught scalares too, much cheaper. We'll see what is available to me.
These are the angels from angelfishusa I am interested in:
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f2...20MRS%20MED%22
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f2...SH%20MED/LG%22
How are these altums? They look good and it says they have a strong immune system but I want to make sure they will do ok.
https://discususa.com/epages/837c2f2...0P.%20Altum%22

I personally have no experience ordering angelfish. The Manacaparuru are red shouldered angelfish, I believe they are a wild scalare, but can still grow much larger than domestic scalare, so a big tank will still be needed. The other two are altum angels, obviously also may obtain a very tall size and will require a large tank (100 gallons+).

The only member I know of here that keeps Altum angels is Luke77. He might have some info on ordering.

OnTheFly
07-05-2017, 05:48 PM
Informative thread. I had no idea fish could survive with a PH in the 3s. Is the reality that you have to do daily WCs in a tank that can't possibly ever cycle due to PH?

Rocksor
07-05-2017, 07:08 PM
Informative thread. I had no idea fish could survive with a PH in the 3s. Is the reality that you have to do daily WCs in a tank that can't possibly ever cycle due to PH?

No, at that PH, ammonia is not toxic. How the nitrogen cycle works at that level is completely different.

AquaAlex1993
07-05-2017, 09:18 PM
Good luck with the angels with the right approach and tank setup (water parameters) and QT period everything should be fine especially with scalares.

I would make sure if you haven't already get some broad spectrum general meds and a dewormer (medicated feed) for any issues that may arise or as a prophylactic treatment. Just my two cents I'd rather treat preventively then after signs of issues.




What is your tap waters hardness and pH? Just curious lol
Thank you. The PH from my tap water is 6.8. I use Amazon Blackwater from Carib-sea on my south american tanks which brings the ph down to 6.0.


Sometimes you've got to try something and see how it works for you, best of luck whichever direction you go ;-)
I agree with you. Thank you.


I personally have no experience ordering angelfish. The Manacaparuru are red shouldered angelfish, I believe they are a wild scalare, but can still grow much larger than domestic scalare, so a big tank will still be needed. The other two are altum angels, obviously also may obtain a very tall size and will require a large tank (100 gallons+).

The only member I know of here that keeps Altum angels is Luke77. He might have some info on ordering.
Awesome thank you!!!! I look forward to owning them!

Rocksor
07-05-2017, 10:18 PM
luke went to a local fishkeeper to get his altums, I believe

steeler58
07-06-2017, 01:42 AM
For those of you that have not seen the Manacapuru red shoulders, they are an awesome looking fish ;-)


https://youtu.be/S5PVravvwhM


https://youtu.be/-Bkn048e3KM

AquaAlex1993
07-06-2017, 02:16 AM
For those of you that have not seen the Manacapuru red shoulders, they are an awesome looking fish ;-)


https://youtu.be/S5PVravvwhM


https://youtu.be/-Bkn048e3KM

They are a stunning fish, I am getting some of them