What Media to Use

[Firewater]

Hi all,

I'm new here (and new to the world of aquariums) but have already gleaned much useful info. This site rocks! :thumb:

My girlfriend's brother has given us his 55g tank, complete with a fluval 304 filter, heater, some nice rocks, and a hood and lights. My plan is to have a ballanced community tank with some live plants.

It is presently filled with water and conditioned with APi stress coat and stress Zyme. Now the aquarium is ready to be cycled--I'm going the fishless route. Tests show 0 ammonia, no nitrite or nitrate (so no biological activity) and a high ph reading(7.8).

Maybe you guys could help me with a few questions (I read the ebook):

1. What are my options in lowering the ph level?

2. I need to start the nitrogen cycle. I want to add some ammonia in
increments, but cannot find any without surfactant? Am I not looking
hard enough? Where do I get some?

3. How do I best set up the media in the three canisters in my filter to
assure clarity and good biological filtration? The more i read the more I
get confused. I set the filter up as advised by my pet store:

A. Foam sponges for filter screen

B. Lower canister: fluval Carbon in bags

C. Mid level: bottom half Zeolite/top half polyfill (since i expressed
desire for clarity)

D. Top level: Fluval pre-filter (to hold bacteria). (now reading I think I
should have used bio max by fluval instead)

All i can say, without explaining why, is that the more I read, the more I think this set up is wrong, or at least not conducive to the development of healthy
and timely biological development.

Sorry for the long and needy first post. Like I said, I'm getting confused. I want to do this the right way. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[richberstler]

I plead ignorance when it come to saltwater, but the first question I have is this for freshwater or saltwater? If freshwater, I think it's not good if it was originally salt... I could be wrong, but I think this info will help others answer your question.

[Firewater]

I plead ignorance when it come to saltwater, but the first question I have is this for freshwater or saltwater? If freshwater, I think it's not good if it was originally salt... I could be wrong, but I think this info will help others answer your question.

Mine will be fresh water, and i believe it always has been. Anyway, when I got the stuff, I cleaned it all out well.

[country_boy454]

Have you tried places like the dollar stores for the ammonia. I got mine from one. I think grocery stores might have it too. I can't help you with the filter because I do not know.

[cocoa_pleco]

for canisters, i just use a coarse sponge first, then a fine sponge, then ceramic rings, then bio balls

[Firewater]

Have you tried places like the dollar stores for the ammonia. I got mine from one. I think grocery stores might have it too. I can't help you with the filter because I do not know.

Supermarket had only had it with surfactants. Well, I do love the dollar stores; I will check there.

[Firewater]

for canisters, i just use a coarse sponge first, then a fine sponge, then ceramic rings, then bio balls

So, I guess they were just trying to make a sale with the carbon and zeolite.
Should I take that stuff out and interrupt the cycle I've stared? Seems best to just deal with mechanical filters and give biology a chance to its thing.

[cocoa_pleco]

let the cycle finish then slowly change the media.

im not saying that carbon doesnt work, its just that basically its useless. in some fish it promotes hole-in-the-head disease, and none of my filters have carbon.

[spudbuds]

I thought you hadn't added any ammonia yet? If you haven't, then you haven't started your cycle so changing your filtration around shouldn't effect your cycle (since it hasn't started yet).

I've been looking for ammonia for a couple of weeks now and I've had no luck either. Everytime I find some, I shake it and it gets all bubbly so I know it's no good. Good luck and let us know where you find it.

- Bill

[richberstler]

To cycle I suggest using a few hearty fish or just drop some fish food in the tank. Than again this has always worked for me with 20gal or less, so yours will most likely take longer.

I think the best idea is to find out if you have any friends with established tanks. It took me forever to cycle my 20high, then I used water from that tank and swished the bio part of the filter in my 2 new tanks. My 10 gal cycled in a day. I assume it will only be a few days for my newest 20long. Getting established bacteria in there will speed everything up. Don't worry about the old filter cartrige clouding up your water, it's a good thing.

[Firewater]

Ok, so I think I'm gonna replace the carbon with bio balls.

What about the zeolite? Anyone familiar with this product. It is made by a compay named Alife, i think. The box is vague and mostly written in some Asian language. Internet info is scarce.

By the way, thanks for the speedy replies.

[cocoa_pleco]

i dont think zeolite is really needed either

[gm72]

Zeolite is an ammonia remover. Not needed.

[Fishguy2727]

Filter setup:
No bioballs, carbon, or zeolite. I have used Fluvals for about a decade and have found the following to be ideal.

They have the slide in frame that holds four course mechanical pads. The water goes through these first. Then, the water goes from the bottom of the stack of trays to the top.

The bottom tray I cram full with as much polyester pillow stuffing as I can. This serves as a fine mechanical media/polisher. If enough is packed in then when you clean it you will find that the bottom 0.5-1" is dirty and the rest is clean.

Then fill the rest of the trays (in your case 2 more trays) with Biomax. The Biomax is a porous ceramic biological media. This will allow A LOT of surface area for nitrifying bacteria.

This setup is also VERY economical. The course mechanical pads can be re-used for quite a long time. The Biomax never needs to be replaced. The polyester pillow stuffing can be re-used a few times, but is so cheap you don't even really need to unless the budget gets pretty tight.

The Fluval Pre-Filter is NOT for biological filtration. The Pre-Filter is a solid ceramic, very course mechanical media (useless for you since the water has already gone through the course mechanical pads).

Carbon has a few uses. The main one is to remove medications. The other two are removing odor and discoloration. These should not be an issue if you are doing enough water changes. There are a few problems with carbon. It removes trace elements and micronutrients. This can lead to HLLE in some species and may contribute to the development of HITH. It can also affect the physiological function of fish in less visible ways since it is removing the trace elements and micronutrients. This also affects your plants. It will remove some of the vital nutrients they need as well. Do not use carbon.

Zeolite is not necessary. It's main use is to remove ammonia, which nitrifying bacteria will be happy to do for you for free. This also applies to ammonia remover media. The bacteria will happliy do this for you for free, why pay the companies to do it for you?

This is the setup I use on all of my Fluvals that I have going. It works better than anything else I have tried.

Cycling:
The most basic ammonias are going to have water, ammonia, and some sort of anti-chelating ingredient. These are found in all sorts of places, I got mine at Wal-Mart.

You want to use ammonia. The best way to do it is to add a little at a time (possibly after diluting it) and test it a minute or so after each time to see what the concentration is. You do this on the first day. You want to keep adding until the concentration is at the top end of the scale. Keep track of how much you added to get this concentration. You will add this amount EVERY DAY until the cycle is complete AND you have fish. If you stop the bacteria will have no food and die off, and then you are back where you started. You should test daily for ammonia and nitrites. As the ammonia level begins to decrease the nitrite level will increase. Once the nitrite level has peaked and then fallen back to 0, you are cycled. You may also want to turn your heaters way up, the nitrifying bacteria function better (and reproduce faster) at higher temps. Testing will also tell you how fast the ammonia is beign removed. If all the ammonia is gone after 8 hours, then you know you need 8 hours between adding the last does of ammonia and adding the first fish.

Do not use fish food, table shrimp, etc. These for one have to breakdown before they release ammonia. They also have an uneven ammonia release. It may be high one week and low the next. This means you have no idea how much ammonia your bacteria can actually deal with. The pure ammonia is much more constant and reliable.

pH:
Your pH is high and you asked how to lower it. Answer is: very difficult. To truly lower the pH and the hardness you really would need either RO, DI, or distilled water. This is expensive and usually unnecessary. Almost all fish are fine if the pH is stable and the water quality is high. My discus are in unaltered tap water which usually holds at 7.8-8.0. The other way to lower pH and soften water is with peat and lots of driftwood. This causes a strong discoloration of the water and as said is not usually necessary.

What fish are you thinking of?
What plants?

Is the Fluval 304 the only planned filtration?
Whatever a filter claims it can handle, cut that in half and that is abotu what it can actually handle in a moderately stocked community tank. I would think you may end up needing another filter. On a planted tank another canister is ideal. Fluval would be my choice. You may not need this, at least not yet, but it is just something you should be aware of now.

[Firewater]

Hey,

Thank you all fort the great advice. I just found some pure ammonia at Shoprite supermarket and added 22 drops to the tank, and will repeat until I see some nitrites, at which time I will lower to 3 drops per 10 g's. Let the Biology begin!:19:

So, I will be saying goodbye to the carbon and zeolite. (I wasted a bit of $ but, hey, i got the tank, stand and accessories for free!)

Fishguy, you are a fountain of information. :22: I will be setting up the Fluval as per your specs. As I am broke as a joke, it is very nice to be saving some money that way. (Part of the reason I'm starting this hobby is that I really can't afford to go out anymore. Now i can stay in on the weekends and tend to and enjoy my aquarium. What's pathetic about that? :c3:)

I guess i can live with my reasonably high ph Ballance (7.6-7.8). . . if the fishes can. As far as fish and plants, I don't really know yet. I will take the ph level (among other things) into account when making purchases. I need to do a bit more research on that. I do want it to be a community tank with a few live plants mingled with fake. Any suggestions are welcome.

Again, thank you all for your informative and timely responses.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[gm72]

Your fish won't mind that pH level at all. So glad you are having fun getting into the hobby!

[Tjones]

you might want to look into some chichlids rather than your normal community tank i think some actually prefer their pH up in that range. just a thought i wanted to throw out!

ps. i found good ammonia at walgreens and they just happened to have a buy one get one free thing on it and i got the last 2 :D

[Cameron]

Make sure when you do add your fish let them sit in the bag floating in the water and change a little bit of tank water to the bag so they get used to the water and dont go in shock...

[gm72]

...and never add LFS water to your tank lest you run the risk of introducing disease.

[Firewater]

Chichlids, you say. I will look into them.

Roger that on the in-bag-acclimation.

[Firewater]

...and never add LFS water to your tank lest you run the risk of introducing disease.

I'll take your word for it, but what is LFS water?

[Fishguy2727]

What is the ammonia concentration now?
Don't cut down on the ammonia added at any point, this will mean less food for the bacteria, which means less bacteria. Keep the same ammonia dose until fish are added.

Barron's has a MiniEncyclopedia on plants. It is very good and can get you going on plants. It has the information you need. I would suggest trying the various hardy, low-light plants and seeing which do well for you. I have anacharis/elodea, water sprite, a couple of the low light swords, hornwort, moneywort, java moss, java fern, and want to get a moss ball.

Some community fish are from harder waters with higher pHs. Things like the livebearers and barbs all do well in the higher pH. Most tetras not so much, but many of them, especially since most are captive bred now, can adapt to your water. All fish that Petsmart sells are captive bred, so that is an option if you have a good one near by and are good at picking out healthy fish.

Many cichlids would be perfect for that water. I persoanlly highly recommend peacocks. You can check out my PhotoBucket page (link in my signature) to see why. They are hardy and from Lake Malawi. There are may other options.

[gm72]

LFS=Local Fish Shop

[Firewater]

Gm72

LFS=local fish shop. OK gotcha. thanks, i will not be putting it in the tank.

fishguy

Your fish and tanks look amazing! I am def interested in the cichlids; boy are they colorful. I also read an article saying that their behavior is fascinating. I'll also check for the plants you mentioned. Now I have to see what is available to me at local pet stores.

I just checked my ammonia levels. After putting in the ammonia drops and waiting a bit for them to circulate, my readings went from zero to 0.25. So I guess i got the ball rolling. I will take your advice and not relent on adding 22 drops per day 'till the fish are added.

[Fishguy2727]

If it is only 0.25 I would add more. Since there are no fish you can go really high with no worries. All this will do is help it go faster and be prepared for more fish.

The plants would be eaten or destroyed with most cichlids, so that will depend on what you actually end up with. Cichlids are highly intelligent. This means that their behavior and interactions are more advanced and more elaborate. There are many types if cichlids out there. Some, like rams, would be perfect for a laid back community tank. Their natural water parameters range literally from the softest, most acidic waters, to the hardest and most alkaline of freshwater. If you like the peacocks they are a great choice. They are an African rift lake cichlid. They are from Lake Malawi. However there are many types of African cichlids, and a few types of Lake Malawi cichlids. The peacocks are I think one of the best options.

[Firewater]

If it is only 0.25 I would add more. Since there are no fish you can go really high with no worries. All this will do is help it go faster and be prepared for more fish.

The plants would be eaten or destroyed with most cichlids, so that will depend on what you actually end up with. Cichlids are highly intelligent. This means that their behavior and interactions are more advanced and more elaborate. There are many types if cichlids out there. Some, like rams, would be perfect for a laid back community tank. Their natural water parameters range literally from the softest, most acidic waters, to the hardest and most alkaline of freshwater. If you like the peacocks they are a great choice. They are an African rift lake cichlid. They are from Lake Malawi. However there are many types of African cichlids, and a few types of Lake Malawi cichlids. The peacocks are I think one of the best options.


I really like the peacocks. They don't look like they are too big, which is good. Is that true of all all African Cichlids. I'd rather have more fishes than big fish.

And I took your advice and doubled the dosage of ammonia. That Zeolite must go; it seems counter productive. But that will wait 'till tomorrow morning as I'm showered and dressed for Thanksgiving diner and my girlfriend will not let me. By the way, she too really likes your fishes.

[Fishguy2727]

The peacocks only hit about 5-6". Some African cichlids get much larger. If you get peacocks you want to stick with just peacocks though.

[mitcore]

...and never add LFS water to your tank lest you run the risk of introducing disease.

i do but i didnt know you could get a disease from the water is this really correct?

[Fishguy2727]

You can introduce pathogens with new fish, which is why quarantining is such a good practice. But the risk is increased when the water is introduced as well. Many pathogens may not be in the fish, but just in the water. By not adding the water you can cut down the chance of introducing pathogens. I just lay a net across the top of a 5-gallon bucket dedicated to fish and pour the water through the net. The fish is caught in the net and you just gently put him in the tank.

[Lady Hobbs]

There are a lot of neat cichlids to look into. The dwarf's are nice, too and IMO, especially those of the Apistogramma groups and they don't tear up plants like some of the large cichlids do.

Depends on what you like. Some like to have a larger show-piece fish with smaller fish in their tank and others like to have several of the smaller species with lots of rocks for caves. When you get to cichlids, the selection is endless. I would suggest finding the species you think you'd like to have and then checking to see what it's compatible with.

Some cichlids are only mildly aggressive and can have community fish with them if they are of decent size. You wouldn't want to have neon or cardinal tetra's with cichlids but larger tetra's or other community fish work with some cichlids.

You'll probably want to find what fish you want to have prior to setting up your tank so you'll know what set-ups they prefer regarding caves, etc.

I hope you really enjoy your new tank and I do think you'll like having cichlids, really. Community fish seem to be a start off point and then generally people get into the cichlids. Not only, as mentioned above, is there a larger variety to pick from, they are awesome little guys and to me, just neater fish and more fun to watch.

PS......You may also want to check to see what is readily available at your local fish stores. Nothing worse than wanting a species very badly that you can never find or they will not order them for you.

[gm72]

You can introduce pathogens with new fish, which is why quarantining is such a good practice. But the risk is increased when the water is introduced as well. Many pathogens may not be in the fish, but just in the water. By not adding the water you can cut down the chance of introducing pathogens. I just lay a net across the top of a 5-gallon bucket dedicated to fish and pour the water through the net. The fish is caught in the net and you just gently put him in the tank.

Right. I do the same thing.