Velvet and Ich- suggestions?

[labagility]

This is my second thread on the forum. I do not want this post buried in my general thread- hope you folks bear with me.

Short version: got guppies for fish-in cycle, lost both due to newbie issues. Kinks were worked out (ich, mechanical injury, dropsy, pH fluctuation...). I cleaned the tank (without nuking the filter), completed fishless cycle and set off to try again. The tank was vacant for twelve days.

Tank is ten gallon and belongs to my four year old.

Got fish from the only LFS on Thursday. My plan was live bearers... My son could not be persuaded. He liked barbs. Store guy said the cherry barbs would be fine. Looked a few places up on my phone that said it would be ok. We ended up with 2 males, 4 females.

I came here and saw a recommendation of 30 gallons. Oy. We need a bigger tank... This one does have lots of hiding places at least.

Saturday morning I noticed flashing behavior. I dosed the tank with Kordon's Ich Attack. Have been dosing twice daily since. Carbon is out of the filter.

Just shined a light and they have Velvet. They also have Ich, just a few granules.

Tank lights are out, glass is covered and the temperature is being increased gradually.

Water parameters with the API Master kit were great today. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrIte, 10 nitrAte. I did a 30-40% water change after testing with aged, pH and temperature matched water. Incoming water was treated with Prime.

What medications would you suggest I switch to? Should it be done in the tank or should I set up a hospital tub? Should I treat for anything else once we make it over this hurdle?

Nuts and Bolts:

Food is Tetra Min Flake, Hikari Frozen Spirulina Brine Shrimp and I just ordered new Life Thera-A small fish pellets. All fish ate the frozen fortified Brine Shrimp with gusto this morning. Tank was vacuumed this afternoon.

Filtration is Aqueon Quiet Flow 10, with course sponge prefilter and extra sponge inside. Heater is 50 watt Jäger.

Thank you for all your help.

[Slaphppy7]

Can you post pics of the fish?

How do you know it's velvet?

i've been tremendously lucky when it comes to fish disease, haven't anything major to deal with, so no experience to share...hopefully, some one will help you out here shortly

[labagility]

There was something different when I turned the tank lights on yesterday. My son sleeps with a lamp on in his room so the tank gets a lot of ambient lighting. I wanted to ease their stress while they settled in so I left their tank lights off.

The best I can describe it is that they looked dull. I saw one Ich dot on one fish so I started with the Ich attack. All day today it bothered me.... I did some reading and shined a light on them and it looks like somebody smeared copper eye shadow down their bodies. Pretty much exactly what the websites describe. Not sure I can photograph that very well. I will try tomorrow.

In retrospect the LFS had several tanks without lights on... I am now wondering if they had something going on. I don't think I will ever get fish there again. It is time to research mail order.

I have no clue about the meds... I cycled the tank with a high amount of ammonia so I could stock it and treat it like a quarantine tank if I had issues again.

It may very well be that I should stay the course and give the Ich Attack time to work.

[labagility]

Ok... here is my plan:

I ordered Coppersafe and the API copper test kit recommended for checking dosage of Coppersafe. It will be here in two days. In the next two days I will keep the tank shuttered and treat every 8 hours with Kordon Ich Attack (the website has this dosage mentioned).

If the fish aren't making significant progress by the time the Coppersafe arrives I will do a big water change and begin treating with Coppersafe. I am a bit worried about my hard water and keeping the amount of Coppersafe regulated, but feel I am up to the challenge. I will just use the API copper test kit twice daily to make sure we stay in the zone.

My next question is about foods: half the fish ate the Tetramin flake this morning. It is NOT their favorite which is why I ordered the New Life Thera A pellets. Would it be better to feed the brine shrimp a few times a week to keep them eating? Or should I just forge on with the Tetramin until the New Life arrives?

Again, thanks for your help.

[Slaphppy7]

The brine shrimp are high protein, I try to feed just once a week as a treat

Try soaking the Tetramin in a little garlic juice

[Boundava]

Sorry to hear you are having problems with your tank. The meds you purchased should help with the velvet. In order to remove the copper when you are done medicating use a Seachem product called Cuprisorb. This way you can have invertebrates in your tank in the future if you want. Hope everyone makes a full recovery.

[Rocksor]

If the fish are sick, I would feed them something that they would eat quickly. Pellet training fish while sick only leads to fish with less energy to fight any virus, parasites, or diseases.

[labagility]

Thanks for weighing in on my dilemma. I really appreciate it. This is certainly not what I was expecting 36 hours after bringing home fish .... I just hope I can pull it off and save these guys. If not, I shall nuke the tank, fishless cycle it again and then set it up for shell dwelling cichlids- which I will order from somewhere you folks recommend.

I bought the spirulina brine shrimp as more of a treat. But, they positively LOVE them. It makes sense to me to feed them the brine shrimp more often right now. I think I will try 1/8th of a cube tomorrow for breakfast. They are messy, so I would limit it to every second or third day so I can vacuum up what they don't eat.

Garlic soak? Is this something you make at home? I would like to try... any details or links?

Thanks again.

[Rocksor]

Thanks for weighing in on my dilemma. I really appreciate it. This is certainly not what I was expecting 36 hours after bringing home fish .... I just hope I can pull it off and save these guys. If not, I shall nuke the tank, fishless cycle it again and then set it up for shell dwelling cichlids- which I will order from somewhere you folks recommend.

I bought the spirulina brine shrimp as more of a treat. But, they positively LOVE them. It makes sense to me to feed them the brine shrimp more often right now. I think I will try 1/8th of a cube tomorrow for breakfast. They are messy, so I would limit it to every second or third day so I can vacuum up what they don't eat.

Garlic soak? Is this something you make at home? I would like to try... any details or links?

Thanks again.

You can make it at home, but I prefer to use either Kent's Garlic Extreme or Seachem Garlic Guard.

[labagility]

Thank you for the suggestions.

I am a tad worried about two of the fish. Yesterday they ate the Frozen Spirulina Brine shrimp. Today I fed flake and two didn't immediately start eating. Of course, I cannot tell you what happened as I only watch the tank for a few minutes a day because I am limiting light.

I am going to do water change tonight just to keep the best water quality possible. That will also allow me to clean up any uneaten food. I am realizing just how much I watch the fish (even if they are in my son's room) now that I cannot watch them at all. Plus, let me tell you... fish that are kept in the dark really do not appreciate the added light when I remove the blanket... and a couple of minutes hardly gives them time to adjust. For all I know they may start eating after I cover the tank back up...

I got some fresh garlic and will make a sauce tonight and try again with the flake tomorrow. If the two girls who are not eating flakes don't eat tomorrow I will do another small amount of brine shrimp Friday. They definitely eat that.

I will definitely get the Cuprisorb ordered so I can use it to remove the copper.

The fish are definitely not any worse and possibly better. I am unsure if I should just move to the CopperSafe or if I should stay the course for another day or two. The Copper Safe should be here today or tomorrow. Any thoughts? Today as of now they have been treated for 4 days.

The life cycle of Velvet is very similar to the life cycle of ich. 4 stages, treatment only effective on the free swimming stage, etc. However, all of the articles on Velvet do not agree on the timeline... how many days each stage needs, etc. Not knowing the timeline makes figuring how long to stay the course very difficult.

[labagility]

OH! One more thing... lots of what I read says that you should not use a water conditioner like Prime with CopperSafe; they say use nothing that binds ammonia. If that is the case can I just forgo the Prime since I have well water?

[Slaphppy7]

Hopefully you'll get some good answers...I've been lucky, and have not had to deal with meds much

Have you tested the well water for ammonia?....if it has none, I don't see why you couldn't skip the Prime, but I'm not certain of this

Fingers crossed your fish make it out of this in goo shape...

[labagility]

For posterity: the Ich Attack did nothing... Even dosing every 8 hours for the last few days and dosing for a full 4 days. Today the fish are MUCH worse. Pretty much everyone is covered in ich, although total darkness might be helping the velvet. They are still flashing.

I just started adding CopperSafe. I figure I will add the dose slowly over the evening so I can let the fish adjust.

I did as you suggested and tested the well water for Ammonia. None present. I just completed a 50% water change (got a barb in the siphon.... Never siphon a tank without adequate lighting. Hopefully she will be ok). I did not add Prime.

Water parameters were stellar tonight. Zero ammonia and NitrIte; ten for Nitrate. Still, I figure my water was aged so clean water is always good.

I will add 11.25 ml of the CopperSafe to dose my approximately 9 gallons of water. I will probably check copper levels at ten ml to be safe.

I grabbed a 3 ml syringe so I know my doses will be spot on.

My husband asked if I am ready to quit. *sigh* There are all these people who do NOTHING and have fish successfully....

[Slaphppy7]

My husband asked if I am ready to quit. *sigh*

Don't even consider it...you've had a rough start, but you have progressed tremendously in your care and research

You'll be a fine fishkeeper one day, I'm sure of it

Good luck with the treatment

[labagility]

Thank you. The encouragement helps.

Although I vehemently argued against quitting the project with my husband, I admit to having thoughts of giving up. But... this is for my son. Who is really interested in having fish, although he is sad about the issues.

Today all fish are still alive. I really do not like the API copper test kit. I think it is too qualitative. I am supposed to keep copper levels between 1.5 and 2 ppm. The kit only tests for 0, 1, 2 and 4 ppm. Still it is a guide to make sure that we are not significantly over or under. I tested at 9 ml and we were just at one so I went ahead and dosed the tank up to 11.25 ml.

I made the garlic juice. I used my fancy plate to scrape two cloves of garlic into bits. Steeped it in boiling water. Let it cool and put it in the fridge. This morning I took a tsp of the liquid and added flake food and a few pellets to it. I added some tank water and dumped it in. All of the fish seemed to eat a bit, mostly picking it out of the gravel. I can seriously see why sand would be a better substrate for clean-up.

[Slaphppy7]

Stay the course, you'll get there...glad to hear the garlic helped a bit

[Boundava]

Glad to hear their appetites are returning. Agree with Mr. Slap, ever onward!

[labagility]

We lost one of our females sometime last night. I suppose I should feel ok about it because most of the fish are still alive. But, I admit... it makes me sad.

The upside: The fish seem to like the NLS Thera A and won't need to be trained to it. this morning most of the fish ate with gusto. I am pretty worried about one of my remaining females though - my plan is to still feed the Spirulina Brine Shrimp frozen twice a week because it guarantees that everyone eats. I am also going to be doing a water change with aged water every 3rd day to help keep parameters in order.

I tested the copper levels last night and it is still in the therapeutic range. Because it was, I am shocked that one of the girls was gone this morning. They survived the first 24 hours after copper application so I was hopeful that everyone might make it.

This has me thinking about quarantine set-ups and what meds you would get. It seems like fish should come right into a quarantine situation and receive meds immediately.

OH! I had a few minutes before a dental appointment so I went into the LFS. The tank all of my females came out of is empty and the store employees, who just a week ago sent me home with the girls, said nothing to me. The first time I have been in there that they haven't asked how things are going. Makes me wonder...........

[Slaphppy7]

Sorry for the loss...you are doing the best anyone could do

[cm12setx]

Sounds like your are making the best of a bag of lemons. Your have done well. Keep it up. Is the ich clearing up? Also I am sorry to hear you lost a female.

[labagility]

Thank you all so much for the encouragement.

I am beginning to feel I am fighting a futile battle. We lost a male last night. We are down to 4 fish. All 3 of my girls look horrid. 4 days of CopperSafe with zero improvement- if anything they are worse. I am testing copper daily and the water is definitely in the zone.

Maybe they have a really amazing super strain of Ich.

I changed after yesterday and will do so again tomorrow.

The tank is still covered so each time I take the cover off I am doing a head count.

[Slaphppy7]

Can you rehome or donate the fish, and start anew?

[Boundava]

Sorry for your losses.
If they have ich, you should use something for ich like quICH cure or NOX-ich. I just got done with a 6 day 1/2 dose and it Haas Gorton rid of all symptoms (and hopefully the parasite).

[Boundava]

Sorry for your losses.
If they have ich, you should use something for ich like quICH cure or NOX-ich. I just got done with a 6 day 1/2 dose and it Haas Gorton rid of all symptoms (and hopefully the parasite).

(blush) has gotten rid of all symptoms... is what it was supposed to say-sorry its what I get for taking into my phone!!!

[Slaphppy7]

I was wondering who Hass Gorton was :14:

[labagility]

The problem is the tag team of ich and velvet.

I hold out a little hope for the copper because I did not increase temperature, so the life cycle is not accelerated. This because velvet does such damage to their gills that most places said not to adjust temp and further starve the fish for oxygen. From my reading Copper was a great choice for both parasites.

I will look into the products you suggested and see if they would work on both. The week of darkness and copper has helped the Velvet. It is still present but nearly gone.

[labagility]

And then there were two.

I have one male and one female left. I am not sure these two will live to see the Nox Ich arrive Wednesday.

I did another water change with aged water, uncovered the tank. Copper tests ok still.

I am now moving onto thinking about how exactly to nuke the tank when they all go. Do I just add bleach to it and let it run?

I am also having doubts about this whole aquarist phase of my life. I think I have one more attempt left before I just toss my hands in the air and give up.

[anand.kevin]

How to cure velvet oodinium and the reason for accuring

[steeler58]

I just now saw this post and I'll start off by saying I'm sorry for your loses :(

Are you sure you have velvet? A lot of times we try and cure something the fish don't really have and end up doing them more harm. Here's a good site for helping to identify it: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fishvet.com%2FOodinium.htm&ei=oaANVY7BO7WOsQSy94LADQ&usg=AFQjCNFl2TrHxo2LFom0rVKZW025V_MaSQ&bvm=bv.88528373,d.cWc

And like Slap said, please hang in there, it's a great hobby but all of us have had to learn things the hard way, except Slap as he said, he's been pretty fortunate except for those black spots on his Columbian's:)

[labagility]

Once again, thank you for the encouragement. It really helps.

Unfortunately, I am positive it is velvet because the dull luster of the fish and the fact that when shining a light directly on them shows them covered with copper eye shadow.

The remaining fish still have a bit of it, but it is definitely better.

ETA: I have kept the tank lights off but have uncovered the tank.

I spoke with the LFS and they advised staying the course with CopperSafe. I am on my eleventh day and the last two fish look better and are eating fine. They really like the NLS Thera-A.

The store did lose all the fan tail cherry barbs that mine came from and refunded me their purchase price. They seemed surprised that any made it. That makes me feel like I am on the right track.

I will be staying the course for now, continuing with water changes and CopperSafe.

I know that 2 barbs cannot live without others so if I save them I will return them to the LFS and try again with live bearers. I am checking Craigslist for a larger tank so I can use my son's tank as a quarantine.

ETA: the Nox ich never arrived as it was apparently lost in transit.

[steeler58]

Sounds like your on top of it.

[labagility]

I am really trying.

I suppose the upside is that my son has been through the "circle of life" lesson enough times now that we no longer have to bury the fish after a small ceremony.

[Slaphppy7]

Keep up the good work, you can do it.

Sounds like you have a nice, decent LFS...they're hard to come by these days

[labagility]

They are very nice.... However, I do question the health of their stock. I guess it could be a fluke.

I am happy to report that the remaining two fish are doing well. They are now 100% clear of ick and close to being clear of velvet. They have been in the CopperSafe for 2w2d. They have fantastic appetites.

Tank lights are still off but I am no longer wrapping the tank.

I think my son will have a hard time parting with these two if they survive their treatment. I am now cautiously optimistic that they will make it to the end.

Most reading I do calls for leaving the treatment being 3-4 weeks for velvet. We are half way there!

[Slaphppy7]

Good job, great to hear the fish are doing fine

[Boundava]

yes, I am also glad to hear the fish are recovering. 3-4 weeks is a long medication time. Hope they pull through for you.

[labagility]

3-4 weeks IS a long time. I am a bit worried about the duration but I think I am more afraid of not finishing the medication length because velvet affects their gills and I wouldn't be able to see it.

Quite the conundrum.....

If I only have the ten gallon both of these fish have to go back to the local pet store when they are healed and I have to find more suitable stock.

If that happens, I will miss them. They are pretty cool little fish.

[Slaphppy7]

What's the problem with 2 guppies in a 10G?...we had 2 in a 10G, plus a betta and ever-breeding platys

[labagility]

The guppies were the last go.

These fish are Cherry Barbs. The 2 that remain are a male and a female. Some sites say 10 gallons are ok, this site and others suggest a minimum tank size of 20-30 gallons.

[Slaphppy7]

Oh, I see, sorry for the confusion...yeah, for them to be comfy, you'd need 8-10, and that's too much for a 10G, you are correct

[labagility]

We started with 6. My son loved them and the LFS guy said they would be fine. I did do a hasty check on my phone I found 2 sites that suggested 10 gallons as a minimum size. One site even suggested that 3 could be in a 5 gallon <--- I side eyed the crap out of that recommendation.

So, at the end of the day we got them. I brought them home, settled them and jumped on here and read that they should be in 30 gallons! And I thought: 30 gallons!!!!! OH MY HELL.

Hours later they got sick... no time to return them. Now I have an obligation to make it right, even if they are going back to the store when it is all said and done.

My next stocking plan, if I have just this ten gallon will be Endlers. I spied some great N-strain Lime Green ones. I am leaving the 4 year old out of all future stocking decisions.

[Slaphppy7]

Hey, we've all been there, done that...check my 10G journal in my sig when you get a chance

I'm sure you already know this, but be sure to get all male endlers...

[labagility]

Oh, I have read your journal. That is how I know you are Matt the Platy Daddy with the Amazing Texas Breeding Water... Patent Pending.

Yes. I am leery of live bearers... One site had a 20 fry special. That was SERIOUSLY tempting. Watching the grow and develop. But, *sigh* I know that is a horrid plan. The thing with endlers that makes allowing some breeding is their short lifespan. I think they only live 2-3 years max.

[Slaphppy7]

LOL, good deal

Yeah, when you buy endlers from a breeder, they know which are males and which aren't...I didn't realize their lifespan was that short, but I do know they'll breed out of control if allowed to

Have you seen this site?: http://home.endlers1.com/

[labagility]

Have not looked at that one, but I will check it out.

I was checking out orchidendlers.com (http://orchidendlers.com/) and Swamp River Aquatics http://www.swampriveraquatics.com/index.html

Although, Swamp River may only sell through Aqua Bid these days.

[labagility]

My last two fish are still plugging along. They will be 4 weeks in CopperSafe this Wednesday.

The male still swims and rubs on things. I am wondering if this could be habit? It is definitely purposeful and he does it every time I watch him. The female never does this anymore.

I want to get them out of CopperSafe - but definitely don't want to have come all this way and stop early.

I am attached to these two. How long can I keep them in the ten gallon before I need to upgrade and add to their school?

My mom went into heart failure and has spent the last ten days in the hospital. Thankfully she is out now- to get stronger before open heart surgery. Needless to say it has been a whirlwind! I am still looking for a larger set-up but getting it rolling may take a bit. My mom is a widow and only has my brother and I to lean on.